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Default (Non exalted) dual daggers for Ash


0_The_F00l
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Hello Everyone,

With the recent release of Garuda and her unique Passive weapon (is there a term for these yet?) of Garudas Talons ,

there is now scope and precedence for other frames to get unique weapons that can truly be signature.

i propose a passive dual dagger "Hidden Blades" weapon for Ash.

A high crit moderate status slash based weapon which is only equipped when no other melee is equipped.

It would suit him very well and it wont affect regular builds , just a nice unique weapon for a true ninja frame.

Pretty sure it can be done for frames that have a weapon based ability where the weapon is part of the frame (Atlas & Khora come to mind)

Let me know what you think.

 

Edit:

A Valid point was made that it should have some unique ability of its own and not just have a skin with stats,

Current suggestion made:

25% chance for Energy drop on finisher kill.

Increased speed on finisher kill.

Bonus Bleed chance when invisible.

Bonus damage when invisible.

 

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Let me know what you think.

I think we need to stop proposing every frame gets an inherent weapon, exalted or otherwise.

One frame got it but it doesn't mean it needs to become a standard thing, otherwise it becomes meaningless. Look at other exalted weapons. Several frames have them now, and most of them are not worth giving up full weapon access for. If they contribute nothing to the actual gameplay of the frame then it's a waste of time.

Edit: I also think it's important to point out that Ash has the original Exalted weapon already... He has a unique wrist blades that come out with his fourth ability and already works uniquely compared to any of the others. He doesn't need copy/paste additions from the flavor-of-the-month frame.

Edited by (PS4)Riko_113
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I get that Garuda's passive is the new hip thing, and that it would be thematic for Ash to be able to use his wrist blades, but the whole problem is that it's just not a good passive. Yeah, Garuda's talons are pretty good melee weapons in a vacuum, but they're not better than top tier melees like the Lesion, Gram Prime, Atterax, etc, and that's not even getting into how powerful Zaws can be. 

Ash would have that problem and the additional problem of missing out on the unique interactions he has with some weapons. A lot of the time, I play Ash with a Blade Storm build and statstick either a dagger for Fatal Teleport or Venka Prime for better BS damage. So unless Ash's twin daggers could accomplish two of the three things I slot a melee for (good reach, Covert Lethality, Venka Prime's passive), then why would I ever use the wrist daggers instead of the vast arsenal of melee weapons I already have? 

Garuda's passive is a fun gimmick. It doesn't really accomplish anything more than that, and it would be nothing more than a gimmick on Ash as well. 

Edited by Gurpgork
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1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

I get that Garuda's passive is the new hip thing, and that it would be thematic for Ash to be able to use his wrist blades, but the whole problem is that it's just not a good passive. Yeah, Garuda's talons are pretty good melee weapons in a vacuum, but they're not better than top tier melees like the Lesion, Gram Prime, Atterax, etc, and that's not even getting into how powerful Zaws can be. 

Ash would have that problem and the additional problem of missing out on the unique interactions he has with some weapons. A lot of the time, I play Ash with a Blade Storm build and statstick either a dagger for Fatal Teleport or Venka Prime for better BS damage. So unless Ash's twin daggers could accomplish two of the three things I slot a melee for (good reach, Covert Lethality, Venka Prime's passive), then why would I ever use the wrist daggers instead of the vast arsenal of melee weapons I already have? 

Garuda's passive is a fun gimmick. It doesn't really accomplish anything more than that, and it would be nothing more than a gimmick on Ash as well. 

You have mentioned a very specific ask, and I am not entirely convinced by your argument. By that logic no one should use any weapon other than the top tier ones, ever. 

They don't need to be top tier,

not every single weapon introduced in the game needs to be overpowered to be fun.

Granted, dual daggers are some of the least preferred weapons cause they really have nothing going for them (hope melee 3.0 does something).

But you can still just take your statstick for your 3 hour survival mots if you want. 

Maybe have the hidden daggers have their own bonus (like Garuda talons do double damage on ground finishers) Say, 25% to 50% more damage on unaware enemies? (bonus after stealth multiplier) 

Would that be enough of a reason for you to use them?

We could always suggest specific stats or gimmicks ourselves. 

 

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7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Agreed, not all frames, just the ones with attached weapons that are not exalted. 

No, not even them. A single frame got one gimmick and now it's a commonly requested feature because she's the new kid.

If it contributes nothing to their kit then it's a waste of time and resources. Aside from being able to damage enemies in Limbo's Cataclysm, what does this even provide Garuda that she could not do better or even equally as well with another weapon? It doesn't contribute to Mastery and doesn't work with set bonuses either. 

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

They don't need to be top tier,

not every single weapon introduced in the game needs to be overpowered to be fun

You say that keeping in mind that you can always change weapons when something better comes along. Garuda doesn't have that luxury since hers is part of her forever. Once you get a better weapon you'll just never see her Talons again because they would be a downgrade and that passive turns into a wasted slot. Abilities, even passive ones shouldn't be something where you can outlevel their usefulness. A similar problem exists with a couple Exalted weapons. They need to be more useful than just damage because access to your full weapon loadout will eventually out-perform them. Valkyr gains invulnerability with hers, Mesa auto-targets, Excalibur gains unrivaled melee range and a mini radial blind despite being a boring spam-fest, Titania gains many bonuses along with her weapons. Wukong and Ivara's weapons just...kinda exist, good damage but not much else.

Now, if players would start suggesting these weapons (Garuda's included) had some kind of synergy within their kit or provided some kind of unique benefit then it might be a different story. As of now, there's no reason to waste development time just creating new weapons that only 1 frame can use that doesn't even have the benefits you get from every other weapon in the game.

I'm an Ash main, with hundreds of hours of gameplay time on him, so trust me when I say I get the appeal of him getting new toys to play with. Ash is specifically designed for high end content though. Odds are you would have a stronger weapon by the time you even unlocked him. The exact same goes for Atlas and Khora. If it serves no purpose other than damage then the community shouldn't even entertain it. Even then, I honestly still don't like the idea because it ruins the uniqueness of Garuda's passive. The more we copy and paste these kind of mechanics across the game the more bland each new iteration will become.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Now, if players would start suggesting these weapons (Garuda's included) had some kind of synergy within their kit or provided some kind of unique benefit then it might be a different story.

As i said , no one is stopping us from making suggestion for unique gimmicks for synergy with abilities including ones that already exist and ones coming up.

just because some feature is new does that mean it should not be replicated ? Does it need to be tied to only one particular niche?

if it makes sense on other areas it should be adopted.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

You say that keeping in mind that you can always change weapons when something better comes along.

So what exactly is the loss? If you don't "want to" you don't "have to" use them, and though i do not like to mention things that are in the works ,melee 3.0 & associated rework could make some significant changes to some weapons (maybe fang prime will be worth it 😛) will you have the same argument after the rework if the damage output of the claws and dual daggers goes way up?

I am sorry if i am misunderstanding you but what i am hearing is "its not as good as this weapon which i can kill enemies super fast with , so i don't want it"

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2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

As i said , no one is stopping us from making suggestion for unique gimmicks for synergy with abilities including ones that already exist and ones coming up.

just because some feature is new does that mean it should not be replicated ? Does it need to be tied to only one particular niche?

if it makes sense on other areas it should be adopted.

Yet none of the countless posts since Garuda was released have suggested it, yours included. Your only justification for it being done on several frames is that it would suit them. It also shouldn't be replicated just because it's a new feature. There has been no valid feedback that has explained how this would actually benefit the frame even remotely.

The point is that it doesn't make sense in other areas. It serves exactly zero function. It's a pointless gimmick that they threw on Garuda. Nifty. Without additional purpose any further attempts at it are literally a waste of development resources.

7 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So what exactly is the loss?

Development resources...<.<

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If you don't "want to" you don't "have to" use them

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. They need to be designed to give us an incentive to use them, not for us to make one up to be edgy...

9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

will you have the same argument after the rework if the damage output of the claws and dual daggers goes way up?

We don't know what will happen with those changes, that's true. If the damage of claws and dual daggers goes way up, that will not directly have any impact on my argument. If anything it could help it. My entire argument is that if the passive or exalted weapons serve no purpose but damage then how could you possibly justify using them over an actual weapon that is better? With melee weapon stats being improved in melee 3.0 it could leave us in the exact same argument, maybe give even less reason to use passive weapons if their stats or purpose are not at least as comparable with top tier weapons. 

I personally don't want their stats to be comparable to top tier weapons, however. I'd want them to serve a purpose other than pure damage to ensure they're useful. I'd rather other frames didn't get it at all, but if they were put in they'd need to be something other than a mediocre weapon that doesn't give mastery.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Development resources...<.<

This is really not your , mine or the communities concern or call to make , we can only give feedback , DE will have to decide if its worth their effort to invest in it.

As for this :

2 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Yet none of the countless posts since Garuda was released have suggested it, yours included.

.i have suggested following and have also added some points to main post - i agree i should have made it more clear and not left it to others to decide.

7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Maybe have the hidden daggers have their own bonus (like Garuda talons do double damage on ground finishers) Say, 25% to 50% more damage on unaware enemies? (bonus after stealth multiplier) 

Would that be enough of a reason for you to use them?

We could always suggest specific stats or gimmicks ourselves.

maybe its not to your taste , thats fine i do not claim to have the best of imaginations. but neither have you provided any suggestions of your own.

Also you are contradicting yourself as per following:

2 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

My entire argument is that if the passive or exalted weapons serve no purpose but damage then how could you possibly justify using them over an actual weapon that is better? With melee weapon stats being improved in melee 3.0 it could leave us in the exact same argument, maybe give even less reason to use passive weapons if their stats or purpose are not at least as comparable with top tier weapons. 

I personally don't want their stats to be comparable to top tier weapons, however. I'd want them to serve a purpose other than pure damage to ensure they're useful. I'd rather other frames didn't get it at all, but if they were put in they'd need to be something other than a mediocre weapon that doesn't give mastery.

Do you want it to perform as well as top tier weapons? then it needs to do damage and their stats need to be good enough for it and if it performs as well as a top tier weapon (btw , viral slash status garuda talons are pretty nasty with 2 forma and CO , they have decent range too).

or do you want them to have a utility? then they need not have the best stats just good enough ones, lets say enemies killed by finisher with these equipped have chance to drop energy orbs, or increase parkour/movement speed , or just boost damage or status chance when invisible.

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41 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

This is really not your , mine or the communities concern or call to make , we can only give feedback , DE will have to decide if its worth their effort to invest in it.

That's exactly why we are discussing this feedback, so DE can decide for themselves. If they're considering it to begin with.

Spending time on frivolous weapon additions to frames would prevent them from working on things that are actually in need of improvement.

43 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

but neither have you provided any suggestions of your own.

With the additions you edited in it would serve additional purpose. That's not bad. I didn't add my own suggestions because my view is they shouldn't be added at all...as i stated in my original post. You didn't add in extra ability effects until after the fact. The argument was around the uselessness of having a standard weapon unique to the frame, so it seems things have gotten derailed a bit there since the original post was edited based on that feedback.

46 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also you are contradicting yourself as per following:

I didn't contradict myself. Reread it. I said "if" they only had damage they would need to compare to top tier to be worth using. I mentioned I'd rather that not be the direction it goes if they are even thinking about it, because of all the issues already discussed regarding standard weapons. Then I reiterated that my vote would still be to not retroactively give frames these weapons at all.

Rather than a simple "no" I was explaining the flaws with this frequently recurring idea so that it can at least be fleshed out enough to consider since that's what forums are for. I'm glad you've understood that part and evolved the idea somewhat. Where it goes from here is up to DE.

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