Pvp Vs Pve Balance

[NIL0S]

To be honest, i hope DE doesn't mind and try to please the PVP crowd too much as Warframe is a PVE/cooperative game at its core, you can't have the best of both worlds when it comes to balance, this OR you need the team splitting up and pulling resources to redesign the game entirely from scratch, ability by ability, frame by frame, to be optimized for PVP.

In my opinion PVP is OK where it is, an optional thing — as is, that's there if you feel like measuring up against another Tenno — without too much weight or meaning to it.
 

Rather than to spend huge amounts of energy to rebalance everything and create new content for yet just another PVP experience among many already existing out there, improve upon and make more exceptional the cooperative aspect, i say. Seriously, on top of all our PVE woes, you want to open the can of worms that is PVP now?

Digital Extremes, follow your vision, know thy audience, stick to your guns.

Edit: Grammar.

Edited September 10, 2013 by NIL0S

[Xaaz]

If they try to balance this game for PvP, they may as well just shut it down. Once that crowd gets into a game, it becomes infested with nerf posts, much worse than it is now. Every PvPer thinks they are the best player ever and if they lost, someone hacked or used an OP skill.

[Xelorx]

Too many people are worrying about this.

 

DE IS focusing on PvE. It doesn't hurt to have the PvP option so as to please the competitive audience wishing to try out their new gear on players instead of AI.

 

Honestly, people should just stop worrying about this.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Xelorx

[Tsukinoki]

@Xelorx

I am worried about the balance changes people demand for PvP affecting PvE. Why? Because people will demand nerfs for Loki and Ashes Invisibility, or Trinities Blessing, Or Nyx's Absorb and things along those lines. And when those start to get nerfed and they start to become useless in PvE so that its balanced In PvP the game will really start to go downhill fast.

[Feindfeuer]

Don't balance the game for PvP, just find some loadouts that are balanced to each other and pack them into pre-defined classes of pre-leveled warframes, skill/mod and weapon combination. That way you don't have to touch the PvE powercreep at all to deliver a balanced PvP enviroment.

This would of course limit customization of the PvP equipment to colors and other visuals, but it would also allow for everyone to participate with the only advantage one player has other the other beeing his skills (and maybe his connection/latency).

Problem is, PvP haters would not want that cause they would rather have the Devs invest time in more PvE content (i can relate to that) and many PvP advocates would not like that cause it would limit them to using 'foreign' frames/weapons for the PvP part instead of just jumping in with their set of super customized frames, skills and gear.

[NIL0S]

@Xelorx: The PVP option DOES exist.

I just think this game should do best first what it's intended to do, and yet still has many troubles with, namely PVE.

[Xelorx]

@Xelorx

I am worried about the balance changes people demand for PvP affecting PvE. Why? Because people will demand nerfs for Loki and Ashes Invisibility, or Trinities Blessing, Or Nyx's Absorb and things along those lines. And when those start to get nerfed and they start to become useless in PvE so that its balanced In PvP the game will really start to go downhill fast.

 

You are one of the people who have not either heard DE correctly, or have been paying attention to what they have been saying at all.

 

Games CAN separate PvE and PvP. And that's exactly what DE said they are doing. Livestreams prove this, and even the latest videos from their YouTube channel do.

 

To explain this, any changes made to Warframes, weapons, etc for the sake of PvP balances, WILL stay in PvP. They DO not affect PvE when those changes are made.

 

Go do some research.

[Venarge]

@Xelorx

I am worried about the balance changes people demand for PvP affecting PvE. Why? Because people will demand nerfs for Loki and Ashes Invisibility, or Trinities Blessing, Or Nyx's Absorb and things along those lines. And when those start to get nerfed and they start to become useless in PvE so that its balanced In PvP the game will really start to go downhill fast.

Well. There is still the possibility for an alternative set so pve would be untouched. But still.... I dont like this.... There would still be a need for a balance between the second stats... And on top of that, warframe skills arent designed for PVP. They have been created for PVE. Autohit stuff, range attacks, invincible skills and aoe arent simply made for PVP. And here goes the prob. You either disable them, which would make every last frame the same, or you would have to create a whole new set of skills, which would lead to a waste of resources for something that was never meant to be core..... PVP is ok. But it will never be a big part of warframe....

[Xelorx]

@Xelorx: The PVP option DOES exist.

I just think this game should do best first what it's intended to do, and yet still has many troubles with, namely PVE.

 

Read post number 4 in this thread. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/104517-about-pvp-thread-makers-in-warframe-and-those-who-want-it/

[Maou]

imho I dont really mind de dweling unto the thing that is called pvp. Personally Im kinda open for it.

 

As long as it doesnt change the balance for pve to fit pvp Im ok with it. Since warframe if growing (going to ps4 soon)(might as well be played on a tablet lol) It needs some sort of endgame thing.

 

Alot of my friends has abandoned warframe cuz it was getting stale, I mean come'n the ai atm can barely be called a challenge and I dont think it can ever be scaled up to be as hard as fighting other players.

 

To sum it up: Imo pvp is good as long as de doesn't make balances that would fit pvp and that they should focus more in pve.

[NIL0S]

DE says it can't implement trading because the team is working on rebalancing weapons. I get it, the team can only do so much at once. That's exactly why i'm saying, don't even touch trying to have a balanced PVP with a ten foot pole before you have a rock solid PVE experience (which at this moment, with all the game modes and frames still in flux, it is not).

[Xelorx]

DE says it can't implement trading because the team is working on rebalancing weapons. I get it, the team can only do so much at once. That's exactly why i'm saying, don't even touch trying to have a balanced PVP with a ten foot pole before you have a rock solid PVE experience (which at this moment, with all the game modes and frames still in flux, it is not).

 

PvP will and always will be for the lulz in Warframe. It's meant to be played with friends/clan members, or anyone else that can agree to certain rules so as to have even ground. And if they WANTED to balance it, they can, and it would only affect PvP game modes, period.

 

PvE was, is, and always will be their focus. IMO (in my opinion for clarification), PVP was added this early to shut those people up.

[NIL0S]

PvP will and always will be for the lulz in Warframe. It's meant to be played with friends/clan members, or anyone else that can agree to certain rules so as to have even ground. And if they WANTED to balance it, they can, and it would only affect PvP game modes, period.

 

PvE was, is, and always will be their focus. IMO (in my opinion for clarification), PVP was added this early to shut those people up.

DITTO

Problem is...

You give the PVP crowd a finger and they will take your arm. I don't think it will shut them up, but rather make them feel entitled.

Warframe =/= Unreal Tournament. At least for a long time to come.

Edited September 10, 2013 by NIL0S

[-Kittens-]

Too many people are worrying about this.

 

DE IS focusing on PvE. It doesn't hurt to have the PvP option so as to please the competitive audience wishing to try out their new gear on players instead of AI.

 

Honestly, people should just stop worrying about this.

 

 

Nope.

 

DE is spending both time and money on something that is in its entirety a waste.

 

Warframe has about six months to do a complete content turn around in regards to combat, mechanics and lack of depth, and about a year or a little less before it gets absolutely buried under DIRECTLY competing content from other publishers with much deeper pockets and far more focus-directed resources.

 

I would like to see WF succeed. Slapping little distraction carrots over bleeding content wounds will not and has never led to success.

 

Once player fatigue over content sets in, those players are not going to be coming back, and they are going to be predisposed to giving the game extremely negative feedback over word of mouth and social venues.

 

The playerbase that PVP is going to retain is not remotely enough to justify the cost, even if that cost is ancillary "free time", because there are other areas of the game that are absolutely skeletons of unfinished anything, whether DE wishes to acknowledge that or not the players and PAYERS of the game both know this and the implications it represents.

 

If these things don't change soon this game is going to be on life support, and once you start on the downward slope of general player opinion, coming back is going to be almost insurmountable for a team of DE's size.

 

We need combat and content depth, not a shiny gimmick mode that does nothing to further the metagame.

Edited September 10, 2013 by -Kittens-

[NIL0S]

I agree with -Kittens-, but as we said, PVP already IS there, what i'm saying is

A) It's counter productive for PVE to demand more PVP.
B) It's counter productive if DE listens to these demands.

[MaddPhish]

I've been in too many MMO's that let the PVE experience they honed go downhill once they start listening to the PVP crowd, and it's almost inevitable that it happens due to the fact PVP is ubercheap content. The players entertain themselves and you don't have to build large zones, script quests, etc. I really hope that the current PVP is as far as it will go as I don't see Warframe lending itself well to a PVP setup. Games are best when they stick to the vision they built towards originally. That's why other shooters that focus on the PVP multiplayer aspect do it so well as they were engineered day 1 to do it. When a PVE game goes after a slice of that PVP game it wastes development time and money and will ultimately turn off the PVE crowd as their skills will be adapted to function for PVP purposes. Even with the ability to slot in PVP ability cards instead of PVE cards you'll see base values for frames and guns tuned for the PVP crowd and the PVP aspects of the game getting more dev time devoted towards it and the player base split and at war on the forums along these faction lines.

[Lord.Finster]

PvP won't get competitive as long as there are no dedicated servers.

 

Also, PvP balancing is easy.

No mods apply. Everybody just gets to use the unmodded weapons and frames.

Abilities will be brought down to their unranked level as well.

Energy pickup system is working fine. Job done.

 

All this will ofc only apply to arena fights among players.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Lord.Finster

[theammostore]

PvP won't get competitive as long as there are no dedicated servers.

 

Also, PvP balancing is easy.

No mods apply. Everybody just gets to use the unmodded weapons and frames.

Abilities will be brought down to their unranked level as well.

Energy pickup system is working fine. Job done.

 

All this will ofc only apply to arena fights among players.

But then people would still complain about that pitch black Loki hanging up on the rooftops with his black energy color going invisible and sniping everyone. Or even better Nyx. I like Nyx. How is Nyx going to compete.

[RoboDoge]

This PvP threads are like plague in last few days. And we know plague can be only fought with fire. So, flame more in this kind of threads.

[LeoAtKnight]

A bit of self-promotion here, but I feel this post also deserves to be here.

Phantasy Star Online and Phantasy Star Portable 2 had a "Battle Mode". Although the game was primarily PvE it still included a little PvP mini game and some people actually enjoyed it.

In PSO it was mostly a troll game mode, and it was incredibly unbalanced. It was a little better in PSP2, and it had a small following of regular PvPers.

My point here is, although a game has a primary focus in PvE does not mean that a little PvP cannot be implemented.

Although I myself will never touch 2vs2 I welcome the addition, because it may be fun for others. Yes, this is resources that could be spent making PvE more balanced, but honestly I believe the reason the PvE isn't balanced right now is lack of early attention, and it isn't fixed now because they are unsure how to fairly go about adjusting balance. Do they nerf? Buff? Both? Sure, it's obvious the answer is both, but by how much? To what? Balance is incredibly complicated when you have multiple roles and styles to cover.

I'm thinking that the only reason this 2vs2 is even coming is because it was a little fun side project to add a little extra to the game while trying to figure out what to do about balance. BS? Sure, but when I'm writing a story and I get writers block I save, drop the story for a few days, even weeks, and then write something else until suddenly I get an idea. I believe the same can be applied here.

I'm derailing though, so I'll go back to the main topic here.

2vs2 is a nice mini-game to keep us entertained, even if it is destined to be an unbalanced instagib fest. As long as they put no more focus into PvP than they are now, I will be fine.

DE, don't go out of your way to balance PvP. Do not make events specifically for PvP either. Stay true to the PvE focus in terms of events, balance, and progression.

/pointlesspostover

[Brasten]

There exists a longer term option for balancing PvP stats without making DE as much work... put it back on the community. Give the community tools to adjust stats and allowable items and with time the community itself will find balance that can be given "official" sanction.

Split the PvP into Official and Exhibition. Official running by very strict rules and Warframe/Power/Stat adjustment derived through Exhibition play and modifications. People who REALLY want to PvP will generate the changes needed to balance that game mode over time. Do it this way and I'd be temped to put money down on PvP getting "balanced" before DE controlled PvE balance.

PvP is one of those "above scope of project" but adds value. Since its outside the normal scope let those give those of us in the community who want it the tools to run it. It's also not like making those tools would be wasted if PvP flops. Such tools would also be quite useful for player created Mission modifiers or even in a full on mission builder.

[waverid3r]

I dont see the "Need" for PvP at all

If league of Legends has taught anyone that knows of the game,

after 3 years of PvP that was "suppost" to be team work to win,

Has turned into, Rage, Hate for New Players, and constant complaining

about who you face, and who your stuck with teammates.

 

Warframe has done something that makes Teamwork  actually work.

NO PvP, you randomly join to help other players finish the level.

and More times it is Rushed through, unless its a survive or defense.

 

But It brings Players together to Play together. PvP does not do that.

FPS to MMO's come and go all the time and they were the best of the PvP.

I would rather Warframe stay PvE with minor Clan battles only as its PvP.

then waste its time destroying what has already been built

Edited September 11, 2013 by waverid3r

[Carcharias]

Too many people are worrying about this.

 

People are worried because we have seen in other games PVE content destroyed for the sake of a loud PVP wanting minority.  See below

 

I've been in too many MMO's that let the PVE experience they honed go downhill once they start listening to the PVP crowd, and it's almost inevitable that it happens due to the fact PVP is ubercheap content. The players entertain themselves and you don't have to build large zones, script quests, etc. I really hope that the current PVP is as far as it will go as I don't see Warframe lending itself well to a PVP setup. Games are best when they stick to the vision they built towards originally. That's why other shooters that focus on the PVP multiplayer aspect do it so well as they were engineered day 1 to do it. When a PVE game goes after a slice of that PVP game it wastes development time and money and will ultimately turn off the PVE crowd as their skills will be adapted to function for PVP purposes. Even with the ability to slot in PVP ability cards instead of PVE cards you'll see base values for frames and guns tuned for the PVP crowd and the PVP aspects of the game getting more dev time devoted towards it and the player base split and at war on the forums along these faction lines.

^^  WORD ^^

 

I dont see the "Need" for PvP at all

If league of Legends has taught anyone that knows of the game,

after 3 years of PvP that was "suppost" to be team work to win,

Has turned into, Rage, Hate for New Players, and constant complaining

about who you face, and who your stuck with teammates.

 

Warframe has done something that makes Teamwork  actually work.

NO PvP, you randomly join to help other players finish the level.

and More times it is Rushed through, unless its a survive or defense.

 

But It brings Players together to Play together. PvP does not do that.

FPS to MMO's come and go all the time and they were the best of the PvP.

I would rather Warframe stay PvE with minor Clan battles only as its PvP.

then waste its time destroying what has already been built

As someone who just started to play LOL, I must say again  ^^ WORD ^^

[NIL0S]

This PvP threads are like plague in last few days. And we know plague can be only fought with fire. So, flame more in this kind of threads.

If you're sickened by the discussion you don't have to partecipate.

[Pure]

I dont see the "Need" for PvP at all

If league of Legends has taught anyone that knows of the game,

after 3 years of PvP that was "suppost" to be team work to win,

Has turned into, Rage, Hate for New Players, and constant complaining

about who you face, and who your stuck with teammates.

 

Warframe has done something that makes Teamwork  actually work.

NO PvP, you randomly join to help other players finish the level.

and More times it is Rushed through, unless its a survive or defense.

 

But It brings Players together to Play together. PvP does not do that.

FPS to MMO's come and go all the time and they were the best of the PvP.

I would rather Warframe stay PvE with minor Clan battles only as its PvP.

then waste its time destroying what has already been built

 

What about the league of legend tournaments around the world? No teamwork huh?

 

I get compliments all the time in LoL.  If you get rage and hate that's probably based on your skill level.

 

And pvp isn't gonna ruin pve's so called teamwork.  Players rush maps and during the last event most the people that joined survival would just afk.

 

If they made warframe pvp gear better than pve gear, you know all the pve kiddies will start pvp.  It's good marketing.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Pure