Serration Must Be Apart Of The Weapons Not Mods In My Opinion.

[syle]

hahaha

...no

[A1kona]

So lets say that your weapons becomes stronger as you level them...hypotheticaly you have a rank 30 (weapon's name) and you dont need serration becuase that weapon deals a ton of damage on itself...what happens then is that one or two mod slots become available where you can place more powerfull element damage mods and critical strike mods, affectively increasing the damage by a S#&$load, making the the lvl100 mobs weaker-the game easier-getting bored quicker

 

[Malaheart]

I don't have a problem with serration mod.  Yes it can lead to large damage scaling but the upgrade cost to get it to max rank is very high to the point where no new players will max it for some time, then it also has a  value of 14 so if a weapon doesn't have the appropriate slot you lose half of your capacity right there.  From this a player then needs to use forma or a catalyst which can be hard to get or result in the use of platinum.  So either way DE wins you have to put more time or money into the game to accommodate this mod and its not like a rank 1 player is gonna have a significant form of serration available to them only higher levels players who earned it.  I agree with these guys on this.

 

 

 

However it is worth waiting until the new armour system and updates from DE come out to even begin thinking of what needs changing.

 

Basing your game totally off of making nickle and diming is bad game design. Yes money must be made but not at the cost of the community, who are at the end of the day your number 1 advocate. And to those who say "Wait for x change" DE is a talented developer and they can multitask. Besides They are already thinking of what is next.

 

...was about to say the same thing. Next up is definitely gonna be warframes. THey need to go man.

 

I already told you it's ammo drop scaling.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Malaheart

[101blubb]

So lets say that your weapons becomes stronger as you level them...hypotheticaly you have a rank 30 (weapon's name) and you dont need serration becuase that weapon deals a ton of damage on itself...what happens then is that one or two mod slots become available where you can place more powerfull element damage mods and critical strike mods, affectively increasing the damage by a S#&$load, making the the lvl100 mobs weaker-the game easier-getting bored quicker

 

You should probably calculate the benefits of crit and elemental mods in comparison to Serration and Hornet Strike.

[Ph33rless]

It took me forever to get serration, the chances of getting it are closer to rare than uncommon. However, I wouldn't be upset if they actually  labeled it rare. Either way, it is an expensive mod, might as well make  sure people know its going to be when they get it. Otherwise, I would rather not see the damage output mods go.. have you seen how  long it takes to level up say the lato without mods?

 

 

[edit]Plus, this is  a player vs mob game, it doesn't need as much balancing as a PVP game.[/edit]

 

 

Basing your game totally off of making nickle and diming is bad game design. Yes money must be made but not at the cost of the community, who are at the end of the day your number 1 advocate. And to those who say "Wait for x change" DE is a talented developer and they can multitask. Besides They are already thinking of what is next.

 

 

I already told you it's ammo drop scaling.

 

 

This game is not nickel and diming.. want to see a game like that? Try playing a kixeye game.. THOSE are games that will nickel and dime you to death. I came from their games, I would know.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Ph33rless

[A1kona]

You should probably calculate the benefits of crit and elemental mods in comparison to Serration and Hornet Strike.

 

With serration and hornet strike adding elemental mods and crits is up to you if you already got serration and hornet strike equipped. But if we don't have serration or hornet strike to equip, and my supra's damage (rank 1) is 30 sumting (i forgot) and by rank 30 it has like 60-90 damage, then adding elemtal and crits would become compulsory to add for the higher levels

[Malaheart]

It took me forever to get serration, the chances of getting it are closer to rare than uncommon. However, I wouldn't be upset if they actually  labeled it rare. Either way, it is an expensive mod, might as well make  sure people know its going to be when they get it. Otherwise, I would rather not see the damage output mods go.. have you seen how  long it takes to level up say the lato without mods?

 

 

[edit]Plus, this is  a player vs mob game, it doesn't need as much balancing as a PVP game.[/edit]

 

Which is why it should not be a mod that is limited to RNG. Why make something SO IMPORTANT it is required hard to find. And balance is needed in a PvE game. Not to open Pandora's box, but look at Molecular Prime. It is so unbalanced it kills the fun for other players by limiting how much they can play the game.

 

Oh and welcome to the forums Ph33rless.

[A1kona]

Yeah welcome Ph33rless, just saw your 1st post

[LukeAura]

This is the way I see it. When a soldier joins the military he is an untrained civilian. Over time he gains experience in a field and with said training he improves in stamina, health and becomes stronger. This is the same for Warframes.

 

 A weapon, no matter how much you use it, will never get stronger unless you do changes to it. Added an extended mag, use different bullet types, extend the barrel, add sights... etc. In order for a weapon to become stronger you have to modify it. The same is true in this game.

So what are mod points then? Why do our weapons suddenly gain the ability to have more and more mods as they level. How come that grineer trooper still hasn't even put a rank 0 cryo mod on his strun? 

There is something unique about Tenno made weapons that allows them to grow as they level, why not add more to that. 

[101blubb]

With serration and hornet strike adding elemental mods and crits is up to you if you already got serration and hornet strike equipped. But if we don't have serration or hornet strike to equip, and my supra's damage (rank 1) is 30 sumting (i forgot) and by rank 30 it has like 60-90 damage, then adding elemtal and crits would become compulsory to add for the higher levels

 

That'd depend on the rework they're looking at. Most rifles do not benefit much at all from critmods and elemental mods are only worth their cost because they scale off of base damage which, as it stands, is increased by damagemods, multishot, crit and Bane.

 

Hell, compare the benefits per cost. Critmods can give you anything in between 2 to 60% more base damage for 9/11 mod capacity, depending on the mod and the gun. They're worthless on more than half the guns in the game. Hornet Strike gives a whopping +220% for 14/15ish % per mod cap. Serration gives 11% per mod cap. They're absolute no-brainers. They don't require thought, they don't add anything to gunplay except for bigger numbers and they certainly don't help with the stupid scaling in the game. They're half the reason we have that in the first place.

Edited September 11, 2013 by 101blubb

[A1kona]

They don't require thought, they don't add anything to gunplay except for bigger numbers and they certainly don't help with the stupid scaling in the game.

 

I don't mind much for the scaling of the game, it is either tough enemies or it is weak enemies. I play weak enemies to grind for resources for my equipment and mods to use on tough enemies. Little numbers makes grinding easier and worth the time, while bigger numbers mean that all those other times spent on your serration and other damage mods are worth it. 

[taiiat]

the problem with removing most of the mods and backtracking to something similar to the previous mod system, especially this suggestion, is that you don't choose how your weapon operates anymore. the point of mods is if someone wants to (theoretically) equip 8 elemental cards, they can. 

 

and what if i don't want my gun to shoot as fast as it's probably going to if stats automatically 'levelup' as i level the weapon? does that mean i should always use a R0 gun in order for my gun to work the way i want it to?

 

and what if i'm content with my gun doing X damage and i don't want more? now i'm being forced to have more damage than i want?

locking people into a linear path really detracts from the longevity of content. letting players choose how they want their gun to function, inside basic boundaries, gives more freedom. the more freedom, the more fun a player can possibly have in the content.

 

there is good reason why games are starting to lean more towards moderately open pathways, and personal choice, because (most of the time)it's actually easier to make than making a ruler path that a player must be welded to, and allows players to choose how they wish to interact with content. overall, everyone wins. and, it allows for more Developer creativity. creativity is always a plus. when you have a lot of open avenues, you can fit a lot more creativity than you can on one avenue. 

 

 

 

besides the fact that you're trying to get all of this S#&$ changed before or for U10, when any of these changes should be 10.5 or 11. we haven't seen U10 yet, we still don't know exactly how it's going to change things.

 

 

edit:

I play weak enemies to grind for resources for my equipment and mods to use on tough enemies.

except all the enemies in the game are the same difficulty, at all parts of the game. 

making their bullets deal more damage and giving them more health isn't increasing difficulty, it just means the enemy stands around longer getting his face pummeled in. 

as with every other game that does this(most of them), this is artificial difficulty. it doesn't add difficulty to the game, it increases number sizes. 

true difficulty comes from enemies countering you better, being more effective as a fighting force, and using better strategy. 

enemies don't need to scale 10000% more health to be 'harder', they need to use strategy and fight as a force, so they are actually a threat on the battlefield, not just getting lucky once in a while with a few bullets that killed you because of ping time or some crap.

 

I do believe the mod system could use a little variety, but in order to do that, you'd need far more choices in terms of what mods you could add to it, before you decide to oust attachments like Serration.

yes.

Edited September 11, 2013 by taiiat

[OvAeons]

makes sense but that is re working every single weapon... and plus i really do not mind having to use a mod to increase the damage... why change what already works?

[VScipii26]

It seems to me that OP simply wants to throw any and all damage mods out the window, or streamline the crap outta them.

The problem with that is that you significantly lower the firepower of anything that's not already powerful.

It supports a prevalence of the Acrid and what not, rather than promotes multiple weapons.

[MrCranky_BR]

Actually read the whole thing this time... Ok  I confess I just glanced over the multishot one.

 

I'll tell you two things, OP:

 

1. You make some damn good points there, and I think I get what you are trying to say;

 

2. Don't put titles like that on your threads. You are sabotaging yourself. Most people are not even reading your (very interesting) posts because they already come in with their minds made up.

 

Instead of saying "this and that must go", say "ideas to improve progression and item modding", or something along those lines.

[taiiat]

Instead of saying "this and that must go", say "ideas to improve progression and item modding", or something along those lines.

or anything that sounds more like a discussion instead of trying to say "i'm correct you should read this".

[LukeAura]

And simply saying to read your post before lashing out at you won't help either. They're not even reading it that far. 

[main_antagonist]

"Why not remove the mods and relocate the damage increase on to the the ranking system of the weapons. So as the "level up" their damage increases."

I don't mind that idea to be honest, it would give me space to add on some of my other mods on and extend my ammo capacity instead of always going for damage etc.

If people are upset about the idea of it being taken away the dev team could do a calculation on what 'fusion level' serration was at and award the equal amount of rare fusion cores to compensate removing it from the game and making the damage increase per level as you stated.

To further agree on this I just played with somebody who has been around since the start of warframe open beta and says he's "never fused anything" some people just don't understand the whole process because there isn't a proper tutorial for it or maybe they don't have the time to sit down and google/wiki everything about this game.

[Malaheart]

Actually read the whole thing this time... Ok  I confess I just glanced over the multishot one.

 

I'll tell you two things, OP:

 

1. You make some damn good points there, and I think I get what you are trying to say;

 

2. Don't put titles like that on your threads. You are sabotaging yourself. Most people are not even reading your (very interesting) posts because they already come in with their minds made up.

 

Instead of saying "this and that must go", say "ideas to improve progression and item modding", or something along those lines.

 

We are all guilty of link bating sometimes *wink*. And future reference I will make my titles more long winded explanations that this is just my opinion.

 

makes sense but that is re working every single weapon... and plus i really do not mind having to use a mod to increase the damage... why change what already works?

 

Yes, but this is a beta after all. Things can change, especially when they are important. Look at the armor system for example. And to your point about what already works. Oil lamps lit a room well enough, but without electricity and the light bulb I would not be here typing to you today (to the joy of many). 

 

It seems to me that OP simply wants to throw any and all damage mods out the window, or streamline the crap outta them.

The problem with that is that you significantly lower the firepower of anything that's not already powerful.

It supports a prevalence of the Acrid and what not, rather than promotes multiple weapons.

 

I want to have bullets that bounce around the room and puncture enemies. If that is what you mean by streamline yeah sure I do. And I'm not nerfing every weapon. If you read my post I just want Serration mods to be incorporated in to the weapon and scaled to a balanced point. Please and again NO, I don't want to kill every damage mod in the game just read my quote form the OP blow.

 

I'm going to stop here to say this. I am not on a crusade to kill all damage mods. Just the mods that feel redundant and limit the choices of players. Just the same I also don't want to kill damage scaling on weapons. I just do not believe the mod system is the right place for how weapon's base damage should be increased

 

 

And simply saying to read your post before lashing out at you won't help either. They're not even reading it that far. 

 

No, but it makes them look like fools when they don't.

[RoboDoge]

This idea is weird, why only serration. Dmg isnt only serration. Remove all damage from the game so we only can stare at mobs and cry alot.

[Malaheart]

I've also tackled Split Chamber mods in another forum post, that is why i'm public enemy number one. But I think you missed my point, We would not "Lose" the damage bonus from Serration mods. It would be transferred on to the weapon bit by bit as they level up. Yes I do want Split Chamber gone, but I also want the enemies scaled down to fit a world without x2 damage.

[main_antagonist]

You really should have gone with a different title for the thread the multishot one was bad  IMO this one made sense.
Why not call it what it is? -Serration implementation to weapon leveling- or some crap like that the title doesn't portray your point properly.

[Malaheart]

The Split Chamber thread was hastily thrown together before work, I really don't feel as if I got my point across in that one, I'll try again later when I have more time. But the title is the title and that can not be changed now.

 

Judge my point. If you agree, good! Add something if you want. If you disagree, even better! Tell me where I'm wrong. Find a reason why this is a bad idea, tell me. You may just change my opinion. But I'll say this...

 

NO! is not an argument.

[theammostore]

U mad bro? Remember serrations takes foreeeeeeevaaaaaa to rank up, mine is currently sitting at 120% damage...if you take serration out, then you take out one piece of the pie (the pie beig Warframe) eg. GRINDING. Which means less time spent on Warframe itself. We need serration also for the end game mobs. Go and play on pluto with any weapon without serration (nevermind shotguns or secondories) and tell me if you need serration or not

First off, you're an idiot. He's not complaining about Serration is hard to rank up, he's saying that it doesn't do anything to the game other than limit your choices for builds.

 

Secondly. I would support this. I hate having to put Serration on all my weapons. I want to put things like stun or puncture or ammo mutation on my weapons, but as it is now, I'm stuck with having 6-7 actual mod slots I can put things in, the others reserved for multishot and damage up. Might as well just take those two slots out on every weapon and just have it auto filled with damage up.

[taiiat]

The Split Chamber thread was hastily thrown together before work, I really don't feel as if I got my point across in that one, I'll try again later when I have more time. But the title is the title and that can not be changed now.

by the way, you can edit Thread titles and etc on these forums IIRC.

 

friendly reminder.

 

 

 

I want to put things like stun

oh god. the day that Stun cards become useful i will be a happy man. i hate how the Stun cards currently work. they boost the 'stun chance' on a weapon, which is a USELESS stat.

 

Stun cards should just stun. X amount of time based on weapon type. 5 level cards i'd assume.

automatic rifles, 40ms. shotguns, 70ms. pistols, 30ms. Snipers, 90ms. melee i'm not sure, thinking 80-100ms. 

levelled up, those would be 240ms, 420ms, 180ms, 540ms, and 480-600ms respectively.

 

none of these are really a big change, but that's enough time to take a step or two, and in a fast paced game, every millisecond is important.

 

increasing the Stun Chance of a weapon by like 15% though..... is @(*()$ useless :/

Edited September 12, 2013 by taiiat