Serration Must Be Apart Of The Weapons Not Mods In My Opinion.

[Drasiel]

I read and understood it just fine, and I still disagree with it. I can max level a weapon in 2-3 hours. It makes no sense for a player to be able to pick up a game based 100% on progression and reach a brick wall in the first 10 hours. Mods like Serration and Redirection serve MORE purpose than just base damage.

- Serration adds a layer of long term progression beyond the first few hours of owning a weapon

- Serration adds Re-playability to a weapon. I went back and played alot of older weapons after I got my serration much higher

- Serration adds Deeper customization. Some players max it for damage, some players leave a bit of space for more mod energy for other mods

- high energy mods like Serration and Multishot are a natural barrier for players to overcome with Forma.

No one would EVER use forma if if Serration's high cost was not an issue.

Taking base stat mods like Serration, Hornetstrike, Redirection, Vitality or Armor out of the game is very short sighted. If a weapon took like four weeks to level then maybe this is a valid way of thinking, but the longevity, progression and replayability of Warframe depends heavily on deep customization especially on base stat mods.

Thing is, you can't properly compare serration to redirection or vitality etc. Because even without slapping a redirection or what have you on your frame your total shield/health/energy all increase by level as well. There are frames that you could run around without the shield/health/energy mods on and instead put on a different set of mods (even though there isn't that many steller warframe mods but that is besides the point).

I would not have an issue if guns levelled up with a hybrid mod + base damage increase per level system, nor do I think that going to a pure + base damage per level would spell disaster. I do think that having weapon progression tied to the luck of finding your first pure damage mod is a good way to turn off players who have a bad roll of the ol' RNG.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Drasiel

[Malaheart]

You could very well survive the endgame by not using a redirect mod and going for some other type of build. It would be a bit harder but not impossible like it would be without a Serration or Split Chamber.

 

I think we are all sick of RNG here.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Malaheart

[mogamu]

Why play Warframe past 10 hours if the only reason to play is to get bigger numbers? You will still be doing the exact same damage percentage wise, because the endgame has to scale with you. The only difference is we would not be leaving quite as many players. Oh. And, with a bit of hope, we would get bullets that bounce off walls! I play games for fun, not numbers.

 

Side-grades just mean more choice. That does not make them flawed.

 

Also, if being saved required also being an elitist I would rather pass.

 

gell... You're my favorite...

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or elitist, Im trying to point you towards the fallacy of removing base stat mods.  

 

You say numbers dont matter, yet you think Serration is somehow different from Element damage or crit damage.  That is where your argument fails. Calling 5 damage "fire" and calling 4 damage "ice" is a mental dissonance.  The only real relevance is the downtime between games making the number bigger or smaller depending on what you are shooting.  You have trouble discerning this, it makes your argument invalid. 

 

You dont realize, but you are making the point for and against progression and customization simultaneously.  A number is a number, this is the argument, no?  

 

Let me help you improve your argument because you are faling at it.  Shotguns should not have a base damage mod, ie Point Blank because it levels SO FAST with only 5 additional levels that it doesnt support customization nor progression.  This should have been your case that either Point Blank and Pressure point should be more progressive like Serration or Hornetstrike, or Serration and Hornetstrike should be made less progressive which further supports your argument that the base stat mods would NOT be progressive at all in that instance and would make more sense tied to the weapon level.  But as it stands, I and the larger majority of players tend to think that long term progression in mods is better over the longterm of the game.

[mogamu]

Thing is, you can't properly compare serration to redirection or vitality etc. Because even without slapping a redirection or what have you on your frame your total shield/health/energy all increase by level as well. There are frames that you could run around without the shield/health/energy mods on and instead put on a different set of mods (even though there isn't that many steller warframe mods but that is besides the point).

 

 

1)  This was NOT in the initial design of the game, DE Steve has made it clear that he dislikes that players complained until it was added

2)  You just PROVED that tying base stats to level was anti-progressive by saying "you could run around without the shield/health/energy mods"

 

 

Let me retype it again...in case you missed it

"you could run around without the shield/health/energy mods"

Essentially, player complaints about connecting base stats to level COMPLETELY broke the modding system seing as how you dont need Redirection nor Vitality...EVER.  And this is good why?  Why do we even NEED shield mods? no, let me take this further.  Why do we even need mods at all?

 

Edited September 12, 2013 by mogamu

[Malaheart]

I'm not trying to be a jerk or elitist, Im trying to point you towards the fallacy of removing base stat mods.  

 

You say numbers dont matter, yet you think Serration is somehow different from Element damage or crit damage.  That is where your argument fails. Calling 5 damage "fire" and calling 4 damage "ice" is a mental dissonance.  The only real relevance is the downtime between games making the number bigger or smaller depending on what you are shooting.  You have trouble discerning this, it makes your argument invalid. 

 

You dont realize, but you are making the point for and against progression and customization simultaneously.  A number is a number, this is the argument, no?  

 

Let me help you improve your argument because you are faling at it.  Shotguns should not have a base damage mod, ie Point Blank because it levels SO FAST with only 5 additional levels that it doesnt support customization nor progression.  This should have been your case that either Point Blank and Pressure point should be more progressive like Serration or Hornetstrike, or Serration and Hornetstrike should be made less progressive which further supports your argument that the base stat mods would NOT be progressive at all in that instance and would make more sense tied to the weapon level.  But as it stands, I and the larger majority of players tend to think that long term progression in mods is better over the longterm of the game.

 

True a number is a number... BUT there is something called context. Fire damage and frost damage function differently because enemies have different resistances to those elements. Serration is a just a flat boost to the base damage of a mod. Elemental mods scale off Serration, Serration does not scale off elemental mods. There is nothing else to it. The mod, Serration, was meant to be how weapons will scale over time and levels. DE wants us to always use this mod because it is how the game works. I just want to take the next logical step and make that process automatic. Freeing up a mod slot and 14 mod points while in the process giving DE another number to tune and balance the game with.

 

Repeatedly saying my argument is invalid without providing any actual argument against it is on the other hand is a logical fallacy. Contrary to your belief, I don't need your help.

[mogamu]

True a number is a number... BUT there is something called context. Fire damage and frost damage function differently because enemies have different resistances to those elements. Serration is a just a flat boost to the base damage of a mod. Elemental mods scale off Serration, Serration does not scale off elemental mods. There is nothing else to it. The mod, Serration, was meant to be how weapons will scale over time and levels. DE wants us to always use this mod because it is how the game works. I just want to take the next logical step and make that process automatic. Freeing up a mod slot and 14 mod points while in the process giving DE another number to tune and balance the game with.

 

Repeatedly saying my argument is invalid without providing any actual argument against it is on the other hand is a logical fallacy. Contrary to your belief, I don't need your help.

 

 

I keep telling you, the key word is PROGRESSION.  You have YET to address that word...PROGRESSION

Warframe is a game about PROGRESSION, IMPROVEMENT, REWARD, INCREASE...PROGRESSION

 

Do you understand?

It takes me 20 seconds to fuse a 5 level mod to max with a few fusion cores.  There is no PROGRESSION in this.

it takes me less than a day to fully level ANY weapon in the game.  There is no PROGRESSION in this.

However, I have been here since closed beta, and i have not fully maxed ever base stat mod.  ie  Ser, Honstrike, redirection, Vitality, Armor.

 

So, therefore...this is a discernabile difference between where i was as a new player and where I am now.

As it stands, BASE STAT MODS are the ONLY long term progression in Warframe..a game...based on...PROGRESSION.

 

I understand your argument about base stats, im not stupid.  I have SUPPORTED your argument about base stats better than you ever could with my case against Point Blank and Pressure Point.  Did you not read it?  Surely you diddnt.

 

But yet, the idea of base stats adding PROGRESSION to a game built on PROGRESSION getting players to play and come back to the game for its PROGRESSION seems to totally escape you.  Let me break it down into a single sentence because i clearly have not typed the word PROGRESSION in large caps enough.

 

BASE STAT MODS ARE THE ONLY FORM OF LONG TERM PROGRESSION IN A GAME BUILT ON THE IDEA OF PROGRESSION.

Did you catch it that time?

[Drasiel]

 

1)  This was NOT in the initial design of the game, DE Steve has made it clear that he dislikes that players complained until it was added

2)  You just PROVED that tying base stats to level was anti-progressive by saying "you could run around without the shield/health/energy mods"

 

 

Let me retype it again...in case you missed it

"you could run around without the shield/health/energy mods"

Essentially, player complaints about connecting base stats to level COMPLETELY broke the modding system seing as how you dont need Redirection nor Vitality...EVER.  And this is good why?  Why do we even NEED shield mods? no, let me take this further.  Why do we even need mods at all?

 

 

Well for me the progression was always tied to what cool thing I could add to my warframe that would either enhance how I play or change how I was able to handle a given situation, so for me not having to install extra shield/health/energy mods made me feel like I could progress in the customization of my warframe how I chose too. Not only that but if you judge your progression in the game by how far in the star chart you can clear at the moment then not being forced to level up those mods let me feel like I was able to progress when I didn't find any. In fact the only real time I felt like I couldn't progress was  when I didn't find a serration for over 100 hours of gameplay. It didn't matter what gun I tried to build or buy, I always ran flat into a wall when it came to being able to kill enemies when I got to tougher planets and it sucked.

 

Only levelling up a mod does not equal progression to me. Finding a cool play style changing/complimenting combination of mods and unlocking other planets and levels does feel like progression to me. 

 

I don't feel it broke the mod system to add those level up bonuses to warframes. If you take the mod system as a replacement for a vanilla level up system then yeah it doesn't work well, but then neither does the mod system in general because RNG is not a good thing to totally base your progression on. But if you take the mod system as a customization system then it works beautifully when placed alongside the way a warframe gains shields/health/energy per level.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Drasiel

[mogamu]

Well for me the progression was always tied to what cool thing I could add to my warframe that would either enhance how I play or change how I was able to handle a given situation, so for me not having to install extra shield/health/energy mods made me feel like I could progress in the customization of my warframe how I chose too. Not only that but if you judge your progression in the game by how far in the star chart you can clear at the moment then not being forced to level up those mods let me feel like I was able to progress when I didn't find any. In fact the only real time I felt like I couldn't progress was  when I didn't find a serration for over 100 hours of gameplay. It didn't matter what gun I tried to build or buy, I always ran flat into a wall when it came to being able to kill enemies when I got to tougher planets and it sucked.

 

Only levelling up a mod does not equal progression to me. Finding a cool play style changing/complimenting combination of mods and unlocking other planets and levels does feel like progression to me. 

 

I don't feel it broke the mod system to add those level up bonuses to warframes. If you take the mod system as a replacement for a vanilla level up system then yeah it doesn't work well, but then neither does the mod system in general because RNG is not a good thing to totally base your progression on. But if you take the mod system as a customization system then it works beautifully when placed alongside the way a warframe gains shields/health/energy per level.

 

My friend, let me help you out.  Your issues are RNG and Armor Scaling.

 

Secondly, you say "leveling up a mod does not equal progression to me".  Thats awesome, that is wonderful!  i respect that because you have decided to have fun no matter what some dumb numbers say.  I agree.  And thankfully, when armor is fixed it will be an even BETTER game for people like you who want to enjoy the game the way YOU want to enjoy it.  And i think the game will be better.

 

However, this is not an argument against progressive base stat mods.  let me give you an example.  I suck at COD:Black ops 2.  But, more importantly, i enjoy it no matter what my KD says, and I think people who fixate on KD are idiots.  However, and follow me here...Treyach has decided that KD and therefore KILLSTREAKS are an integral part of the game, and players with a higher KD will no doubt use those killstreak bonus to smash me even harder.  Here is the issue.  Because I enjoy BlackOps2 outside of what the developer considers core gameplay, does not mean that Treyach should change its core design because I am having fun OUTSIDE of its core design.

 

Digital Extremes, after 20 LONG YEARS of designing games has decided that long term progression in base stat mods is good for Warframe.  And the fact that a few players dont think its important, and i respect that, does not justify changing the core mechanic of the game.

Edited September 12, 2013 by mogamu

[Malaheart]

I keep telling you, the key word is PROGRESSION.  You have YET to address that word...PROGRESSION

Warframe is a game about PROGRESSION, IMPROVEMENT, REWARD, INCREASE...PROGRESSION

 

Do you understand?

It takes me 20 seconds to fuse a 5 level mod to max with a few fusion cores.  There is no PROGRESSION in this.

it takes me less than a day to fully level ANY weapon in the game.  There is no PROGRESSION in this.

However, I have been here since closed beta, and i have not fully maxed ever base stat mod.  ie  Ser, Honstrike, redirection, Vitality, Armor.

 

So, therefore...this is a discernabile difference between where i was as a new player and where I am now.

As it stands, BASE STAT MODS are the ONLY long term progression in Warframe..a game...based on...PROGRESSION.

 

I understand your argument about base stats, im not stupid.  I have SUPPORTED your argument about base stats better than you ever could with my case against Point Blank and Pressure Point.  Did you not read it?  Surely you diddnt.

 

But yet, the idea of base stats adding PROGRESSION to a game built on PROGRESSION getting players to play and come back to the game for its PROGRESSION seems to totally escape you.  Let me break it down into a single sentence because i clearly have not typed the word PROGRESSION in large caps enough.

 

BASE STAT MODS ARE THE ONLY FORM OF LONG TERM PROGRESSION IN A GAME BUILT ON THE IDEA OF PROGRESSION.

Did you catch it that time?

 

Yes I get it. But that is still a flawed Idea of progression. DE has yet to introduce an endgame to Warframe. So what are we progressing towards? Are we trying to get enough gear so we can kill the boss to explore the rest of the dungeon or are we trying to just get more loot. The current way the system works it is all about the loot. It should be about playing the game. seeing all of the interesting things the game has to offer. Right now, without an endgame, we are stuck in perpetual Diablo territory. We play for loot and that so that we can find more loot. So what happens when you have every gun in the game, Every warframe, every mod every skin? You no longer have ANY reason to play and all the time you spent getting all those items is wasted. Because you truly have nothing to use them for. Eventually that should be fixed. DE will find a solution, create an endgame, making playing the game more interesting than JUST finding loot.

 

Also if a game is all about the loot you are going to have perpetual power creep. Fine I accept a small amount of power creep in games. But we are still in beta. Look just how far the damage in the game has crept in this short time.

 

Edit: Also to my knowledge and there admittance, DE have never made an MMO. This is new territory for them, so in many areas they may not know what they are doing.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Malaheart

[Drasiel]

Fair enough mogamu, It's been a good discussion with you on this and I can see where you are coming from with that explanation, even if I sit on the other side of the fence.

 

Digital Extremes, after 20 LONG YEARS of designing games has decided that long term progression in base stat mods is good for Warframe.  And the fact that a few players dont think its important, and i respect that, does not justify changing the core mechanic of the game.

 

Then perhaps the issue is that they need to make it really clear in game that mods are THE  progression THE ALMIGHTY LEVEL UP SYSTEM and not a customization system. They could do this by giving one time guaranteed rewards (like how the cronus drop works on Vor) for the core mods for levelling your warframe from bosses or as specific level/planet completion awards. Because as it stands right now the system doesn't scream LEVEL UP it screams CUSTOMIZATION to me, but that could be a personal problem.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Drasiel

[mogamu]

I like arguing, my strategy is to just keep talking until the other person gets tired and gives in. =)

[Malaheart]

Fair enough mogamu, It's been a good discussion with you on this and I can see where you are coming from with that explanation, even if I sit on the other side of the fence.

 

 

Then perhaps the issue is that they need to make it really clear in game that mods are THE  progression THE ALMIGHTY LEVEL UP SYSTEM and not a customization system. They could do this by giving one time guaranteed rewards (like how the cronus drop works on Vor) for the core mods for levelling your warframe from bosses or as specific level/planet completion awards. Because as it stands right now the system doesn't scream LEVEL UP it screams CUSTOMIZATION to me, but that could be a personal problem.

 

So if you are going to give it away why make it a mod? Why not just let you apply fusion cores to your weapon to increase its damage? Clearly it is not a choice to equip it if it is the endgame. so why make it a choice? why make it a mod?

 

The argument maybe "Think about progression!" but I'll say it again, playing a game just to making your gun more powerful is a false sense of progression.

[mogamu]

 

The argument maybe "Think about progression!" but I'll say it again, playing a game just to making your gun more powerful is a false sense of progression.

 

*bingo

But I'm going to let it get out of Beta before I start to make that argument.  Then, we will both be in agreement =)

Edited September 12, 2013 by mogamu

[Drasiel]

Malaheart I'm saying I can see mogamu's point of view not that I'm 100% dead set that damage mods are the bees knees as far as progression goes.

 

So if you are going to give it away why make it a mod? Why not just let you apply fusion cores to your weapon to increase its damage? Clearly it is not a choice to equip it if it is the endgame. so why make it a choice? why make it a mod?

 

The argument maybe "Think about progression!" but I'll say it again, playing a game just to making your gun more powerful is a false sense of progression.

 

if <-- IF pure damage/stat mods are going to stay in the game because that is what DE feels is really important for whatever reasons then at the very least the way you acquire the first ones you find need to be set more or less in stone to give a real sense of progression in early game as far I'm concerned.

[Malaheart]

Yes I get it. But that is still a flawed Idea of progression. DE has yet to introduce an endgame to Warframe. So what are we progressing towards? Are we trying to get enough gear so we can kill the boss to explore the rest of the dungeon or are we trying to just get more loot. The current way the system works it is all about the loot. It should be about playing the game. seeing all of the interesting things the game has to offer. Right now, without an endgame, we are stuck in perpetual Diablo territory. We play for loot and that so that we can find more loot. So what happens when you have every gun in the game, Every warframe, every mod every skin? You no longer have ANY reason to play and all the time you spent getting all those items is wasted. Because you truly have nothing to use them for. Eventually that should be fixed. DE will find a solution, create an endgame, making playing the game more interesting than JUST finding loot.

Also if a game is all about the loot you are going to have perpetual power creep. Fine I accept a small amount of power creep in games. But we are still in beta. Look just how far the damage in the game has crept in this short time.

Edit: Also to my knowledge and there admittance, DE have never made an MMO. This is new territory for them, so in many areas they may not know what they are doing.

So if we are both in agreement that Warframe lacks any real progression. Why not remove false progression. Doing so would make the game much more sound mechanically wise for when we actually do get an endgame. That way we are not hammpered by legacy ideas.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Malaheart

[gell]

I read and understood it just fine, and I still disagree with it.  I can max level a weapon in 2-3 hours.  It makes no sense for a player to be able to pick up a game based 100% on progression and reach a brick wall in the first 10 hours.  Mods like Serration and Redirection serve MORE purpose than just base damage.

 

-  Serration adds a layer of long term progression beyond the first few hours of owning a weapon

-  Serration adds Re-playability to a weapon.  I went back and played alot of older weapons after I got my serration much higher

-  Serration adds Deeper customization.  Some players max it for damage, some players leave a bit of space for more mod energy for other mods

-  high energy mods like Serration and Multishot are a natural barrier for players to overcome with Forma.

    No one would EVER use forma if if Serration's high cost was not an issue.

 

Taking base stat mods like Serration, Hornetstrike, Redirection, Vitality or Armor out of the game is very short sighted.  If a weapon took like four weeks to level then maybe this is a valid way of thinking, but the longevity, progression  and replayability of Warframe depends heavily on deep customization especially on base stat mods.

 

I still don't think you get it because nothing you say supports it.

 

The idea is not to put everything on leveling frames; I like the card system. It's good for customizing your playstyle.

 

Remember a couple months ago when the game was rebalanced to be tougher? You think that serration lets you customize your gun to be stronger, but no that's not the case. Without serration, you can't really do higher level planets, and in fact some bosses are next to impossible due to how fast their shields regen, and how much ammo you have (not even talking about endless defense scaling).

 

But that's all still a bit beside the point. The point being that linear damage scaling is bad either one the starting end or the end, and we know that DE didn't do a good job balancing the rank 30 stuff, so where did DE balance it? If you think Serration/multishot and other damage mods are all just damage and extra customization (meaning you tailor it to how you want to play), who do you think would want to do without them? It's not a choice when it's required. It's a false choice at best. I can actually survive fine without using Redirection or Vitality, or using a small amount (through Vigor). I can also go without some electric or fire damage. And my personal preference is freeze damage due to the slowing effect (I honestly don't care if it did less damage, it's the slowing that is great to me).

 

So then what's important about damage scaling linearly? You do have a point in that most weapons level up pretty fast, so maybe it's a slightly moot point, at least, for long time players it does. Leveling is slow early on but early on, everyone is too newb to know what is what anyway, so who cares about a new player, right? You can level anything to 30 in a few hours if you've got the support of your high level frame and tricks.

 

So as a base, you could have a rifle that is base 30 damage per bullet. You could have another that is base 35. Other stats may vary. The numbers aren't so different here at rank 0, they're off by a measly 5.

 

After you add Serration, and you've got it at +165%, the 30 damage becomes 79.5 and the 35 becomes 92.75. Maybe this doesn't matter that much still since higher level enemies is the main reason you would level anything. But what about how the Acrid came to exist today? Remember when it came out, Hornet Strike and other damage mods did nothing for the DOT. No one really cared about it, but it was a fun weapon for some folks, and some argued fun was more important than min/maxing anyway. DE later patched all damage mods to work with Acrid's DOT, so the base damage of each stackable DOT became insanely powerful.

 

Of course, in googling some videos of early Acrid (since the wiki doesn't list the base poison or I didn't see it), I found a vid I assume is by you, mogamu, based off the youtube name. I don't even need to say anymore on the specific numbers because in the video you admit how "insane" the damage gets. The gun starts out good and becomes an insane killing machine due to the damage mods affecting the DOT. Why are you still defending that linear progression on the damage mods is okay? If DE were to ever nerf the Acrid, with the current system, they would nerf its base poison to make it as pathetic as the Mire, just to make the top end damage lower. It shouldn't be the same for all weapons. Because DE applies the Hornet Strike damage buff linearly and as a catch-all for all pistols, Acrid ends up doing "insane" damage. If you're really going to be a jerk by pointing out people's bad arguments, why do you allow weapons that scale incredibly differently to exist? It's due to the linear damage buffs, Serration, Hornet Strike, and so on.

 

Your video, I assume:

 

But I also know DE will likely not touch this. Once you give kids a toy, it's hard for them to take it away. Out of the interest of discussing interesting developments, I'm here. I don't know where you're coming from with your points because none of them make sense. Serration adds no long term anything once you've got it improved. You can slap it on any weapon after 4-14 levels (yes, 4 levels is the best case, you can add a maxed Serration to a brand new weapon with a potato and same polarity, is this really a long term reward after a few hours? Not even close to a few hours). No one doesn't use damage increasing mods, particularly Serration/Hornet Strike unless they haven't found it. I don't min/max, but as the OP pointed out, the game was balanced around it similar to Multishot, so it's a necessity to have damage increasing mods. Or, those imaginary players you created who don't want much damage on their guns can just stick to mobs level 30 and under (less than half the game).

 

EDIT: I have to add one thing, and it may seem a contradiction since I support the OP's thoughts. But I am not sure removing Serration and adding it to the weapon is a good idea. I like that weapons don't level up in any stats and that the game relies entirely on the mods system for any real changes. I do think they could rework Serration to do the same thing the OP is asking for though, just minus one mod slot since there will be a damage mod there. Instead of Serration adding a universal percent of damage, it could dynamically say what it's adding per weapon. Put it on one gun and it adds 5%, another, it could add 8%. That seems like it would be confusing, but I think after an initial unfamiliarity, it would be fine. Look at the mod and see how it affects the weapon. You know how we're supposed to get updated UI that shows us stats? It would play right into that. You'll be able to see that adding a maxed Serration adds exactly +45 damage per bullet for one gun, but +25 for another. Up to DE for balance.

Edited September 12, 2013 by gell

[mogamu]

because in the video you admit how "insane" the damage gets. The gun starts out good and becomes an insane killing machine due to the damage mods affecting the DOT. 

 

 

Ok let me fix it then.

Damage mods affecting DoT is good, Armor scaling nerfing other weapons into the ground is bad.

 

 The DESPAIR does the same damage front loaded and the result is the same, enemies die fast.  And the Despair has 2 V attack slots, which better supports your case against Base damage mods.  The issue isnt the Acrid and not Hornet Strike... its the Armor scaling.

[Malaheart]

Good thoughts gell, what I'm arguing for is indeed a dramatic change. Your idea would be a nice middle ground. Although I do still argue that aquireing something that is mandetory through rng is a bad idea. If you are on the forum chances are you are around the 300 hour mark. When warframe is released for the ps4 we will have a large influx of new players. Part of my idea was to reduce some of the substantial learning curve that warframe has.

[Malaheart]

Ok let me fix it then.

Damage mods affecting DoT is good, Armor scaling nerfing other weapons into the ground is bad.

 

 The DESPAIR does the same damage front loaded and the result is the same, enemies die fast.  And the Despair has 2 V attack slots, which better supports your case against Base damage mods.  The issue isnt the Acrid and not Hornet Strike... its the Armor scaling.

Armor scaleing is a differant problem. Even if it was to be fixed in U10 Many weapons would still not be as good as others. And melee and warframe powers would pale in comparison to guns.

[taiiat]

We are beta testers. We are here to provide feedback about the game and try to fix what is broken before the game actually launches.

based on how ~96% of the people in this community act, you could've fooled me. 

 

 

Why do we even need mods at all?

one suggested solution to the fact that base damage increases, as mods, are too 100% required. if you need it 100% of the time, it's not a mod. it's something you've welded to the weapon. 

 

maybe you've got a better option to make these base damage increase mods less than 100% necessary?

i don't have anything, off the top of my head. but how it is, yes, those 4 base damage boost mods are 100% necessary (for melee generally just one for weapons designed around quick or heavy), but, they should not be. mods should be choices, not requirements. otherwise, it kind've defeats the purpose of having customization. 

a from the book definition of to 'customize' : "modify (something) to suit a particular individual or task."

 

if we're looking to modify something to suit a particular task, why is a base damage increase there? it's obviously always going to be chosen 100% of the time, because more damage with your damage, is... more damage.

the elemental mods are adding X% of the base damage as that element type. that's okay, it's adding something new to the weapon. i feel fine with the way that elemental damage works, because it's generally a less than 100% addition of extra damage of an element type. since it's not just plain 'damage', it serves a much more situational purpose, while base damage is... just always wanted :/

 

it's not like any one option is instantly going to be implemented, it's an option. if it's not the 'best' option, then we should find a better one, and repeat until we can't find anymore flaws with the option.

 

 

i haven't thought of anything that sounds better, so i'll keep thinking. maybe others will do the same. (since the point of us Beta Testing here is to use a lot of heads to try and improve aspects of Warframe with ideas).

[mogamu]

Good thoughts gell, what I'm arguing for is indeed a dramatic change. Your idea would be a nice middle ground. Although I do still argue that aquireing something that is mandetory through rng is a bad idea.

 

Just like every warframe comes with 4 default cards, every new account should come with 1 unranked Serration, Hornetstrike, Pointblank and Pressure Point.  I have always thought that.

 

based on how ~96% of the people in this community act, you could've fooled me. 

 

 

maybe you've got a better option to make these base damage increase mods less than 100% necessary?

 

That would be true for Point Blank and Pressure point because they lack long term progression.  But  Serration and Hornetstrike are not flat damage mods, they DEPENDS on tons of commitment and progression to get any real value out of them.  If you just popped them in and they did the same damage no matter what, then I would agree that they serve no purpose.  But these mods have 10 levels that are extremely difficult to get and forces the player to really commit and invest themselves into the game to do more damage.

Edited September 13, 2013 by mogamu

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Part of my idea was to reduce some of the substantial learning curve that warframe has.

 

What? Warframe has a high learning curve??

 

Your a funny one :)

 

 

OT: Let's just assume that damage leveling with weapon rank is absurd, as you can max a weapon in a day. You suggested pumping fusion cores into them, sounds reasonable but....the biggest glaring problem with your suggestion is Free players. Would you really sell a weapon you've pumped S#&amp;&#036; loads of fusion cores into just so you can get the next shiny toy? No you wouldn't. Same goes for warframes if you had to pump fusion cores into them to raise energy health etc. 

 

Then you would have to tackle all the weapon variants without causing mass rage. DE want players to try out as many weapons and frames as possible and the mods system makes it possible. People would simply not bother if they had invested a large amount of time into levelling a weapon/warframe.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Shifty_Shuffler

[Malaheart]

What? Warframe has a high learning curve??

 

Your a funny one :)

I you are not being sarchastic, yeah. Nothing is intuitive.

[ScorpDK]

"Weapon Damage should be part of the weapon!"

Genius! :D

 

wait...

 

-_-

 

So what would you suggest?

Ohhhhh, I know.

Forma'ing a weapon increases it's base damage by one rank of Serration. Has as many ranks as Serration currently has.

Imagine all the Forma DE would sell, imagine all the frustration from people because leveling guns TAKES AGES.

I can see it COULD work, but only if guns could rank up waaaay faster.

 

So for the time being...

 

NO. :/ too much hassle, the mod can be moved around into any primary/secondary weapon easily. Per-weapon stats wouldn't. And make ranking them up even more of a hassle and frustration.

[taiiat]

That would be true for Point Blank and Pressure point because they lack long term progression.  But  Serration and Hornetstrike are not flat damage mods, they DEPENDS on tons of commitment and progression to get any real value out of them.  If you just popped them in and they did the same damage no matter what, then I would agree that they serve no purpose.  But these mods have 10 levels that are extremely difficult to get and forces the player to really commit and invest themselves into the game to do more damage.

just because someone can grind it doesn't make it healthy for the game. 

sure, it pretends to add more longevity to the game, but it isn't, really. longevity means more enjoyment, grinding isn't actually enjoyable. yes, we can tolerate some of it, but that's more like dumping a bucket of slow on your head, rather than just making the path a bit longer.

some grinding is okay... but... there's a fine line between an understandable ramp, and 500 hurdles to jump over. but the hurdles are only an inch tall. there's just a hell of a lot of them.