[Feature/Suggestion] Bringing Bows Back

[TenchuTheWolf]

Hello!

I had an idea for bringing bows back in line with other primary weapons. Many of us have had experience with the new kitguns and Pax Seeker, and know how strong that proc can be if you consistently kill enemies with headshots. Killing one enemy with a solid headshot can result in several nearby enemies dropping very quickly. 

I propose that bows either have an innate feature, or a weapon class mod that shatters arrows fired at nearby enemies on headshots. The resulting number of projectiles from the shatter and the distance they travel could vary by bow if innate, or be a set number on a mod. (Shattershot)

Compared to other primary weapons, bows do not have the highest single target dps, but they do have projectile travel time and drop appropriate to bows. For the intent of a bow they feel good, and I think that a risk/reward solution would make their killing power compete with other primaries.

Let me know what you think!

Thanks~

Edited April 5, 2019 by TenchuTheWolf

[SuperTacticalUrbanDino]

Strongly seconded. This would make them actually like, feel interesting and fun to use, instead of really extra lame semi rifles.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

11 hours ago, TenchuTheWolf said:

Compared to other primary weapons, bows do not have the highest single target dps

the dread, Cernos prime(rakta) and Daikyu would love to have a word with you on this.

 

Dread with point strike, vital sense, serration, vigilante fervor/armaments, split chamber, HUNTER MUNITIONS and whatever this last mod you want is will easily kill high level heavy units in one to two shots. one with a proper riven(all this applies to Cernos prime as well)

 

so...yeah, they have amazing single target dps. its the crowd targeting thats the problem.

[JacketUnHoly]

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Edited January 28, 2021 by Lluminate

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

27 minutes ago, Lluminate said:

OP specifically said the HIGHEST single target dps. Dread and R Cernos do have higher than average single target dps, but snipers are still higher (Vectis P and Rubico P, specifically). And snipers do not have the downsides of projectile drop or charge time. Even if you are looking to kill one guy, you would be better off with a sniper.

 

I like this as an innate property, not sure how I would feel if it was a mod because we'd be giving up more damage when bows are already not the best at their niche.

unlike snipers though, bows can be used in much more than just against eidalons or for kicks.

more often than not, you'll only see snipers against the big 3, whilst bows have much more plausible use in normal missions where the projectile drop is far less noticeable.

[TenchuTheWolf]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Orcus Imperium said:

unlike snipers though, bows can be used in much more than just against eidalons or for kicks.

more often than not, you'll only see snipers against the big 3, whilst bows have much more plausible use in normal missions where the projectile drop is far less noticeable.

I've used snipers in probably every game mode against probably everything because I enjoy the point and click adventure feel they add to the game, and I never feel like I have to shoot something more than once, especially in the head. They're quite usable even against enemies while you're on the move. They have basically everything that bows have, and none of the drawbacks.

[LegendaryNeurotoxin]

I posted about bows elsewhere.... what they need is to be nocked and drawn as soon as possible, so the player need only click to fire. Half-drawn arrows could be fired too I suppose, but it would make more sense to just let it be ready and waiting for the player to fire. This takes away a lot of the awkwardness, and allow more of the standard point-and-click interface that most projectiles provide. They are still great for trying to be stealthy, though suppressors can be modded onto other weapons already. 

I would also be willing to give innate punchthrough to bows, where single-shot bows that have no other effects get 2m or more, while ones with multiple arrows or special arrow effects only get 1m. 

Alternatively, use the draw. Add an overcharge feature, where while an arrow is drawn, its damage slowly ramps up. The caveat is that a defensive maneuver that resets the hold would break the multiplier.

Edited April 6, 2019 by LegendaryNeurotoxin
added 3rd line

[TenchuTheWolf]

1 hour ago, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

I posted about bows elsewhere.... what they need is to be nocked and drawn as soon as possible, so the player need only click to fire. Half-drawn arrows could be fired too I suppose, but it would make more sense to just let it be ready and waiting for the player to fire. This takes away a lot of the awkwardness, and allow more of the standard point-and-click interface that most projectiles provide. They are still great for trying to be stealthy, though suppressors can be modded onto other weapons already. 

I would also be willing to give innate punchthrough to bows, where single-shot bows that have no other effects get 2m or more, while ones with multiple arrows or special arrow effects only get 1m. 

Alternatively, use the draw. Add an overcharge feature, where while an arrow is drawn, its damage slowly ramps up. The caveat is that a defensive maneuver that resets the hold would break the multiplier.

What you're talking about is actually also a method of animation for bow characters to make their animations more responsive. The arrow is fired immediately and the nocking is done at the end of the animation. I wish I had a good offhand reference for this, but I've seen it done before. I think that would be good quality of life for bows, but probably doesn't solve the difference in killing power.

It sounds weird that you'd suggest innate punch through? I'm pretty sure all of the bows have a punch through ranging from 1m - 3m already. (At least that's what the wiki suggests.)

I'm game for a charge attack that feels like Kai's Magnum from Vindictus.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Monster hunter series bow charge has multiple levels. Each boosting the damage by a certain percentage. I prefer that style a la how snipers zoom give out crit multiplier.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

8 hours ago, TenchuTheWolf said:

I've used snipers in probably every game mode against probably everything because I enjoy the point and click adventure feel they add to the game, and I never feel like I have to shoot something more than once, especially in the head. They're quite usable even against enemies while you're on the move. They have basically everything that bows have, and none of the drawbacks.

alright, fair enough.

[Nukesnipe]

Sounds like OP wants Le Monarque.

[TenchuTheWolf]

13 hours ago, Nukesnipe said:

Sounds like OP wants Le Monarque.

I didn't play Destiny 1/2, but it does sound about right from what I looked up. A way to spread damage to mid distance enemies from your target that isn't a chance proc and is more dependent on a controllable factor. Le Monarque appears to be timing based on the draw, which is a neat idea, but I think that the fast paced movement of the game lends to delayed fire from drawback being less than desirable and kind of finicky.

Longer draw mechanics would have to be devastating and more broad of a damage payout for the delay, but a perfectly timed draw does also sound like a straight forward and simple mechanic. 

[Nukesnipe]

5 hours ago, TenchuTheWolf said:

I didn't play Destiny 1/2, but it does sound about right from what I looked up. A way to spread damage to mid distance enemies from your target that isn't a chance proc and is more dependent on a controllable factor. Le Monarque appears to be timing based on the draw, which is a neat idea, but I think that the fast paced movement of the game lends to delayed fire from drawback being less than desirable and kind of finicky.

Longer draw mechanics would have to be devastating and more broad of a damage payout for the delay, but a perfectly timed draw does also sound like a straight forward and simple mechanic. 

I think that more "proc on headshot" mods/abilities would be nice.  I like that Nagantaka has functionally Outlaw (faster reload on headshot kills).  I could definitely see a bow that does something like arc lightning or whatnot on headshots.

[TenchuTheWolf]

On 2019-04-08 at 8:09 PM, Nukesnipe said:

I think that more "proc on headshot" mods/abilities would be nice.  I like that Nagantaka has functionally Outlaw (faster reload on headshot kills).  I could definitely see a bow that does something like arc lightning or whatnot on headshots.

I greatly disliked the Nagantaka until I had Primed Shred, the fire rate and punch through makes all the difference on that gun. It also has really amazing base stats. I haven't set mine up all the way yet, and I don't have a good idea of how it stands up to other crossbows. The crossbows in this game are in a weird middle point between Rifles and Bows.

Can't wait to test all of that out. I want to get the right Riven for it...

[LupoDWolf]

maybe, as mostly of the bows aren't really '' technological'' as the other weapons(with some exceptions) I think they should be able to channel too

[TheGreenFellow]

I reckon bows should benefit from the sniper combo. Creating a method of chain/fork a la Path of Exile would be a neat idea too I suppose.

[Gawizard]

@Nukesnipe I can Definitely feel the trinity ghoul being something in warframe, but in a mod format. Headshots chain lightning effects and increases knocking speed. Kills with the lightning effect will chain to other enemies. 

[Nukesnipe]

On 2019-04-10 at 5:08 PM, TenchuTheWolf said:

I greatly disliked the Nagantaka until I had Primed Shred, the fire rate and punch through makes all the difference on that gun. It also has really amazing base stats. I haven't set mine up all the way yet, and I don't have a good idea of how it stands up to other crossbows. The crossbows in this game are in a weird middle point between Rifles and Bows.

Can't wait to test all of that out. I want to get the right Riven for it...

Yeah, (Primed) Shred is kind of required on Nagantaka.  It's still a really nice weapon though, and I love the aesthetic of reverse crossbows.  I've been working on a design for one myself, actually, if only I could draw...

 

On 2019-04-11 at 9:36 AM, Gawizard said:

@Nukesnipe I can Definitely feel the trinity ghoul being something in warframe, but in a mod format. Headshots chain lightning effects and increases knocking speed. Kills with the lightning effect will chain to other enemies. 

I think that alt-function mods would be a nice thing to add.  Like how Acolyte mods usually trigger off of headshots or kills for increased stats.

[Gawizard]

2 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

I think that alt-function mods would be a nice thing to add.  Like how Acolyte mods usually trigger off of headshots or kills for increased stats.

I actually made a mod concept here
forums.warframe.com/topic/1083886-augment-mod-for-paris

 

[TenchuTheWolf]

27 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

I think that alt-function mods would be a nice thing to add.  Like how Acolyte mods usually trigger off of headshots or kills for increased stats.

Chaining kills on bows for stacking stats on a refreshing buff might be neat, but getting area coverage is still the biggest concern I believe.

8 minutes ago, Gawizard said:

I actually made a mod concept here
forums.warframe.com/topic/1083886-augment-mod-for-paris

 

I feel like a majority of the mods that add abilities and functionality have very set numbers, lack a lot of scaling, and end up being rather weak. If they went the mod route, it would have to be pretty potent and mimic weapon damage. A pure lightning option may not actually help all bows equally, and as for chaining or area of effect functionality, it would be better off affecting every shot. 

A weapon specific mod is fine, but it doesn't really address the issues that bows have as a weapon class. It would be better as either a one size fits all mod, or a weapon class feature probably with some isolated variety to specific bows.

It would make more sense if they address all the bows collectively, instead of one mod for one bow.

[Nukesnipe]

1 hour ago, TenchuTheWolf said:

Chaining kills on bows for stacking stats on a refreshing buff might be neat, but getting area coverage is still the biggest concern I believe.

I feel like a majority of the mods that add abilities and functionality have very set numbers, lack a lot of scaling, and end up being rather weak. If they went the mod route, it would have to be pretty potent and mimic weapon damage. A pure lightning option may not actually help all bows equally, and as for chaining or area of effect functionality, it would be better off affecting every shot. 

A weapon specific mod is fine, but it doesn't really address the issues that bows have as a weapon class. It would be better as either a one size fits all mod, or a weapon class feature probably with some isolated variety to specific bows.

It would make more sense if they address all the bows collectively, instead of one mod for one bow.

CC is still why Cernos Prime is imo the best bow in the game, because it can hit a bunch of enemies at once, but the vertical spread still gives it good single target damage.  They could go the way of those mods that make an enemy explode for 40% of their total health in damage.

[TenchuTheWolf]

1 hour ago, Nukesnipe said:

CC is still why Cernos Prime is imo the best bow in the game, because it can hit a bunch of enemies at once, but the vertical spread still gives it good single target damage.  They could go the way of those mods that make an enemy explode for 40% of their total health in damage.

Odds are that enemies are going to be spread out most of the time (except those weird times they bunch up because of pathing/AI issues) unless you use a skill like Vortex or Larva to compact them so an enemy explosion at a 40% value would have to cover a really large area. Killing one enemy and dealing 40% of it's max health as damage is unlikely to kill the rest of the enemies around it. 

A split shot, or chaining (energy lightning thing?) effect with the full damage value, or a value that scales from the weapon, that requires some a condition like headshots is a very specific and controllable outcome that is likely to kill another enemy outright. 40% on a kill definitely adds area damage, but it probably won't ever kill a secondary target unless you've weakened them already. In that case you'd probably only get effective use out of frames that can spread out AoE damage to weaken enemies to begin with like Saryn / Ember / Equinox. Ember could probably use a little help, but Saryn and Equinox don't need a lot of extra to already clear with their abilities.

A weapon class feature like this should compliment some frames, but I don't think it should require some frames to be effective, and percentage of enemy health value damage scaling is going to push it in that direction.

[Gawizard]

7 hours ago, TenchuTheWolf said:

that requires some a condition like headshots is a very specific and controllable outcome that is likely to kill another enemy outright. 40% on a kill definitely adds area damage, but it probably won't ever kill a secondary target unless you've weakened them already

The idea was that if you were to land another headshot, it would allow for clearing the rank and file enemies of the game (anything thats not a hyekka master, bombard, heavy gunner, nox etc. for grineer, anything thats not a corpus tech, Nullifier crewman, Comba enemies, bursas, hyenas, etc.) with less shots since it'll be doing either 20%/40% or 60% AoE burst of the damage done (numeric value not the damage in enemy hp).

[Gawizard]

so lets say you're doing 200k damage on headshots, you'll be doing 100k in an AoE around that enemy. If they survive, you can land another headshot on the weakened enemy to finish the job.

[Gawizard]

Also, just imagine the stacks if you get a banshee buff on that hs?
legit clear the room