Scott Says The Stamina Bar Wasn't Relevant...

[MJ12]

The reason that stamina bars limit player's ability to continuously sprint is that it brings a level of realism. What is the point of differentiating between running and sprinting? What if they got rid of the idea of changing the rate at which you move and simple had one movement speed? Here is an interesting link that covers stamina and why it is used in video games.

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/stamina-bar/3015-3569/

 

Realistically I can sprint for several minutes. I am only moderately in shape.

 

Someone like an Olympic marathoner can run at a speed most people would consider sprinting for hours on end. These superstrong cyborgs in power armor that call themselves Tenno, realistically speaking, should not have a stamina bar because they should be able to sprint marathons.

 

My thoughts on this have already been said, though.

 

Basically: This game takes a lot from the Unreal Tournament/Championship style of fast agile combatants. None of those games had a sprint function or stamina, and that was how it should be.

[MofineBovine]

Following what a vocal minority screams at the top of its lungs is not democracy.

 

The people who did not like the change were a lot more inclined to express their opinion than those that liked it or did not care about it.  I can not say what the whole warframe community thought about the changes, but I can definitely say that me and 20+ of my clan mates did not have a problem with the change.

 Its not about the last changes they made to stamina. I have been saying they should ditch stamina (or at least stamina for movement) since i started in March. Spamming slide all the time to get around is a pointless effort and is in my opinion ridiculous. DE could easy go "well, we can fix that: You will no longer regen stamina when you slide." Of course they wont, because that would really highlight how horrible stamina is for a game that has gameplay central to acrobatics and movement, and everyone would complain. 

[whitejackale]

Then we have to run through the dozens of enemy-filled rooms because we have limited resources, the AI spawns infinitely unless the room is in lock-down.

This has little to do with stamina, and everything to do with how DE decided to make enemies spawn.

[whitejackale]

Realistically I can sprint for several minutes. I am only moderately in shape.

 

Someone like an Olympic marathoner can run at a speed most people would consider sprinting for hours on end. These superstrong cyborgs in power armor that call themselves Tenno, realistically speaking, should not have a stamina bar because they should be able to sprint marathons.

 

Sprinting means to run at maximum speed for a short duration. This means that anyone, even world athletes, will run out of breath very quickly because they are running at the "maximum" speed that they are capable of.

 

This is why I say that people should stop asking to be able to sprint permanently without running out of energy since by definition it would no longer be a sprint.

 

As for the "super strong cyborg" part. I am pretty sure that the tenno are not cyborgs, and that they are merely wearing armour that enhances their physical abilities while giving them special abilities.

[whitejackale]

 Its not about the last changes they made to stamina. I have been saying they should ditch stamina (or at least stamina for movement) since i started in March. Spamming slide all the time to get around is a pointless effort and is in my opinion ridiculous. DE could easy go "well, we can fix that: You will no longer regen stamina when you slide." Of course they wont, because that would really highlight how horrible stamina is for a game that has gameplay central to acrobatics and movement, and everyone would complain. 

1) I understand that it is about the first changes that they made in which we were running out of stamina very quickly. Like I said, my clan had no problems with that stamina change and people are simply overreacting. And the main problem is that people need to move through levels as quickly as possible for one reason or another, and not how quickly they are able to move through those levels.

 

2) How fast we move, and all of those fancy acrobatic moves, are of little importance. They look cool or allow us to cover large area very quickly, but what really matters is the part of the game that deals with combat. That's right, shooting, casting abilities, and meleeing are what matters.

[Aure7]

NO PLEASE, I AM AGAINST THIS

Don't take another aspect of the game that gives some kind of depth to the gameplay. I don't want warframe to be stripped naked and be a farming/rushing simulator.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

2) How fast we move, and all of those fancy acrobatic moves, are of little importance. They look cool or allow us to cover large area very quickly, but what really matters is the part of the game that deals with combat. That's right, shooting, casting abilities, and meleeing are what matters.

WF is marketed as a fast pace game. If it was purely about combat, we probably wouldn't have wallrunning, abilities that lets be mobile, etc, and instead, we'd have a cover system.

 

 

NO PLEASE, I AM AGAINST THIS

Don't take another aspect of the game that gives some kind of depth to the gameplay. I don't want warframe to be stripped naked and be a farming/rushing simulator.

Anyone rushing is really using zoren copter.

Edited September 21, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[ThousandDogs]

My opinion on this matter is that stamina's not going to be relevant as long as our main interaction with enemies involves shooting them with guns, which uses no stamina, as that is the gameplay. Everything else is just additions and variants on the gameplay. If people want to avoid all the enemies instead of fighting them, well that's what stealth is for, which needs work but exists as a legitimate gameplay method. The question of slowing down rushers is answered by having more cool things to look for, which was stated already, but there's always going to be people that just want to go through the level as fast as possible. Speedrunning is its own state of mind, and all.

[Deaths.Reap3r]

Im not going to upvote this... just because its at 123...

But here take this upvote comment

[MJ12]

Sprinting means to run at maximum speed for a short duration. This means that anyone, even world athletes, will run out of breath very quickly because they are running at the "maximum" speed that they are capable of.

 

Yes, and I, as a moderately in shape 20something male, can sprint for at least a minute. "Run out of breath very quickly" is relative.

 

This is why I say that people should stop asking to be able to sprint permanently without running out of energy since by definition it would no longer be a sprint.

 

What. Look, if you can sprint for a minute or two on end, which is realistic, you might as well eliminate any restrictions on sprinting because you will never ever, ever be in a situation where this is actually a problem.

 

As for the "super strong cyborg" part. I am pretty sure that the tenno are not cyborgs, and that they are merely wearing armour that enhances their physical abilities while giving them special abilities.

 

Tenno are very closely related to the Infested, which are all cyborg zombies. They are related to the point where Golem and Lephantis call them "our flesh". To build a Warframe, you use things such as Infested biotech, Grineer cybernetics, and so on. In fact, a neural implant is an explicit component of a Warframe. Hayden Tenno was the first Tenno, and he was a nanomachine cyborg due to technocyte infestation.

 

It is all but explicit that Tenno are cyborgs. Furthermore, if they weren't superhuman without the suits, the things they do, such as 'block bullets with a sword' or 'throw knives hard enough/pull a bow strong enough to send 800kg Grineer flying', would instantly snap their limbs. You would use a single Kunai or Paris shot and then you would lose the mission instantly because your arms no longer work (you've broken them in ten places) and the Grineer shoot you full of holes.

[bidoof]

Sprinting means to run at maximum speed for a short duration. This means that anyone, even world athletes, will run out of breath very quickly because they are running at the "maximum" speed that they are capable of.

 

This is why I say that people should stop asking to be able to sprint permanently without running out of energy since by definition it would no longer be a sprint.

 

As for the "super strong cyborg" part. I am pretty sure that the tenno are not cyborgs, and that they are merely wearing armour that enhances their physical abilities while giving them special abilities.

 

So you're arguing that since 'by definition' it isn't a sprint, the function should be removed and warframes should just move that fast normally? Brilliant idea, I couldn't agree more.

 

 

1) I understand that it is about the first changes that they made in which we were running out of stamina very quickly. Like I said, my clan had no problems with that stamina change and people are simply overreacting. And the main problem is that people need to move through levels as quickly as possible for one reason or another, and not how quickly they are able to move through those levels.

 

2) How fast we move, and all of those fancy acrobatic moves, are of little importance. They look cool or allow us to cover large area very quickly, but what really matters is the part of the game that deals with combat. That's right, shooting, casting abilities, and meleeing are what matters.

This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. You do not know how to employ movement in combat; hence you lack the ability to judge the difference between good and poor movement. Also you probably play Warframe like it's a cover shooter.

Edited September 22, 2013 by bidoof

[GetAtMeMods]

This is the only thing i hate about U10.

[MJ12]

So you're arguing that since 'by definition' it isn't a sprint, the function should be removed and warframes should just move that fast normally? Brilliant idea, I couldn't agree more.

 

 

This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. You do not know how to employ movement in combat; hence you lack the ability to judge the difference between good and poor movement. Also you probably play Warframe like it's a cover shooter.

 

 

I support this. (DE also made UT2k4, and UT2k4 movement is top notch and would work really well for cyborg ninja fighting games).

[Haif]

This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. You do not know how to employ movement in combat; hence you lack the ability to judge the difference between good and poor movement. Also you probably play Warframe like it's a cover shooter.

Not necessarily true at all.

Even during the worst stamina changes, you could still run out into a mob and remain fairly mobile, but it required quick tapping of the sprint button you had to be better at knowing where to land/walk to recover enough stamina for that quick jump-roll.

 

I think you underestimate players mastery of the mobility tools at their disposal.

 

However, while the stamina changes didn't really affect combat mobility terribly much, they were a major pain in the &#! when you just wanted to get from one place to another, and if you wanted to melee? Heh, that playstyle was all but dead.

 

I'm going to agree with the op. Stamina as a system needs to go, and if a limiter on say, blocking is needed DE has already shown they can implement internal cooldowns on basic systems like sliding.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Haif

[Nagisawa]

Following what a vocal minority screams at the top of its lungs is not democracy.

 

The issue, from what I can see, given the spawn rate and the complaints about rushing, that's exactly who DE is listening to.  Which, I have to say, is US.

 

And a LOT of us want things that are frankly skewed.  Most (key word) of us who post here have invest a boat load of time here, I myself started back in U8 and I'm already breaking the 300 hour mark.  And that's from playing an hour, maybe, every so day, except when I can't, which has been a few times.

 

So a lot of us who are up there, have frankly forgotten what a lot of it's like to be low, and new.

 

This Stamina change is a good example of this.  A lot of people here want to play at their own pace, even with strangers, and some of those 'strangers' run helter-skelter through the stage.  Often for various reasons (the game being one of them, the spawn rate is INSANE.)

[Brimir]

Anyone with a brain can see that Stamina is not a problem. We do not have too much Stamina which let's people rush missions. The real issues are two in number:

 

Butt-sliding - You sprint along and occasionally crouch in order to initiate a slide, then instantly letting go of the crouch key. This gives you a speed boost as well as the rather humourous animation of your Warframe slamming his/her butt into the floor for a split second.

 

Slide attacks - almost all melee weapons boost you forward during the slide attack, no doubt intended to allow you to close distance quickly enough for the attack to connect or to catch fleeing enemies. The unintented side-effect of this is that if you spam the slide-attack you can move much faster than if you were sprinting. 

 

Nerfing Stamina does not affect any of these actions the slightest as they can both be performed at 0 Stamina. This is why people reacted so negatively; the nerf only affected people who actually sprinted rather than "abuse" these two mechanics to get around.

[Xylia]

Anyone with a brain can see that Stamina is not a problem. We do not have too much Stamina which let's people rush missions. The real issues are two in number:

 

Butt-sliding - You sprint along and occasionally crouch in order to initiate a slide, then instantly letting go of the crouch key. This gives you a speed boost as well as the rather humourous animation of your Warframe slamming his/her butt into the floor for a split second.

 

Slide attacks - almost all melee weapons boost you forward during the slide attack, no doubt intended to allow you to close distance quickly enough for the attack to connect or to catch fleeing enemies. The unintented side-effect of this is that if you spam the slide-attack you can move much faster than if you were sprinting. 

 

Nerfing Stamina does not affect any of these actions the slightest as they can both be performed at 0 Stamina. This is why people reacted so negatively; the nerf only affected people who actually sprinted rather than "abuse" these two mechanics to get around.

 

Another problem: Too freaking many mobs spawn, especially for newbies, which FORCES them to rush a mission, and newbies aren't sporting Zorens; they have Skana and Cronus. And no Fury mods.

 

Nerfing Sprinting doesn't cause veterans to slow down; it DOES however make it harder for newbies to bail and get the hell out of dodge when they get overwhelmed by mass respawns that force them to flee. They aren't rushing, they're Fleeing because they must.

 

A newbie does not have the resources to deal with 10 napalms and 5 heavy gunners in one level. A newbie cannot handle rooms of 10-15 grineer with hitscan weapons and respawns coming up behind them.

[Brimir]

That is why I prefer Extermination missions. No fustercluck with endless waves of enemies that spawn behind you in rooms which you've already cleared. You can methodically clear them out and loot the whole place at your own pace.

[Xylia]

That is why I prefer Extermination missions. No fustercluck with endless waves of enemies that spawn behind you in rooms which you've already cleared. You can methodically clear them out and loot the whole place at your own pace.

 

The problem with Exterminate are four-fold:

 

1). You meet far less enemies (yes I know I'm sounding hypocritical, but I'd rather kill 300 enemies 2-5 at a time, than to kill 80 enemies and be done)

 

2). Exterminate does not reward anything end-of-mission unlike Survival, Capture, or Defense do.

 

3). It seems like far, FAR fewer loot rooms spawn on Exterminate missions, so that means fewer credits, resources, etc.

 

4). Far, Far less XP (because of far less kills).

 

I want to kill more than 80 mobs, I just don't want to face 10-15+ at once and have them constantly spawning behind me interrupting my cover.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Xylia

[Brimir]

Well, if I wanted Affinity I would just do Cyath. Mostly I do Exterminate to loot the place clean. If less loot rooms is indeed the price I have to pay for the peace of mind it provides, so be it. This does not include the Void for obvious reasons though.

[Xylia]

Well, if I wanted Affinity I would just do Cyath. Mostly I do Exterminate to loot the place clean. If less loot rooms is indeed the price I have to pay for the peace of mind it provides, so be it. This does not include the Void for obvious reasons though.

 

I realize why you do what you do, I'm more throwing this stuff out there for DE to see where the problems lie in the current system.

 

They want to nerf movement, but newbies need that movement (and veterans who want to rush will still rush despite the nerfs). We have grossly unbalanced rewards. We have people running lesser-reward missions purely because they aren't so ridiculous and unfun. blah blah blah.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Xylia

[VanillaRegal]

Space ninjas are now asthmatic and cannot perform many actions without having to stop and catch their breath and use their inhalers.

[litlit]

Anyone with a brain can see that Stamina is not a problem. We do not have too much Stamina which let's people rush missions. The real issues are two in number:

 

Butt-sliding - You sprint along and occasionally crouch in order to initiate a slide, then instantly letting go of the crouch key. This gives you a speed boost as well as the rather humourous animation of your Warframe slamming his/her butt into the floor for a split second.

 

Slide attacks - almost all melee weapons boost you forward during the slide attack, no doubt intended to allow you to close distance quickly enough for the attack to connect or to catch fleeing enemies. The unintented side-effect of this is that if you spam the slide-attack you can move much faster than if you were sprinting. 

 

Nerfing Stamina does not affect any of these actions the slightest as they can both be performed at 0 Stamina. This is why people reacted so negatively; the nerf only affected people who actually sprinted rather than "abuse" these two mechanics to get around.

 

The thing is, these aren't things that should be taken out of the game.

 

Slides, slide attacks, animation cancelling, and Zorencoptering are some of the only skillsinks in the game. Everything else is based on stats and RNG.

 

They shouldn't be nerfed or taken out of the game. Instead, they should be incorporated into the game as full features.

[Raowyn]

I think you can prove that stamina is a little silly by starting any map and watch how people move. It will be run->slide->run->slide to conserve stamina. It's an extraneous gameplay element in that regard, anyways.

[Ryjeon]

If they want to make it relevant than they should tweak it so that we are rewarded for managing our stamina rather than penalized for ignoring it. Perhaps we could get a significant %melee damage increase for not being low stamina. Then mods like Marathon could be considered melee build mods. But we should not have the current damage or mobility standards reduced for being low stamina.

 

 

The thing is, these aren't things that should be taken out of the game.

 

Slides, slide attacks, animation cancelling, and Zorencoptering are some of the only skillsinks in the game. Everything else is based on stats and RNG.

 

They shouldn't be nerfed or taken out of the game. Instead, they should be incorporated into the game as full features.

 

This times 1000! The mobility skill horizon in this game is incredible and it's main feature for me. When I execute a wall-jump into a spiral helix into some grineer's neck I really feel I am experiencing the game's ninja power fantasy. It's not about stats. It's not about farming. It's about skillful and stylish execution.  I regularly utilize Aim-flipping, jumping dodge rolls, vertical wall-jumps, sliding charge attacks (with a sliding animation cancel back to safe range), sliding ability casts, repeated reverse sliding slash attacks, so I can eviscerate a stationary enemy. I'm discovering new techniques and movement combos all the time, which is why I haven't stopped playing since march.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Ryjeon