Scott Says The Stamina Bar Wasn't Relevant...

[Gigatron-Prime]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! No they didn't. They adjusted it a bit, but they have not done a total rollback.

I don't want a rollback, I want a cease and desist letter to be handed to the stamina bar. 

[Kitzun]

Stamina would be great if it was coherent for each frame.

Let's take Loki and Rhino.

Loki's stamina should allow him to have short bursts of hyper-activity, but for a short time, his skills making him able to buy time to get back his breath.

Rhino's should allow him a long, efficient, stable use, with little place for spikes of condensed activity, like a true tank.

Rhino's stamina should quickly run out if not used conservatively, and Loki's should allow him quick bursts of intense activity but harder to replenish.

Something like Loki having a big stamina bar, but with slow regen, and rhino having a very short one but with huge regen.

Loki should be a short-distance sprinter.

Rhino should be a long-distance marathoner.

 

See what I mean ?

[NalkorRN]

IMO:

 

Keep the Stamina bar, but take Sprinting off of it.

 

Make it so that Sprinting no longer depletes stamina at all. That way we can sprint as much as we want.

 

Then what?

 

Improve blocking, make blocking drain stamina. Make it cost Stamina to jump, roll, dodge, etc. Make Charged attacks drain Stamina at a large rate (because you're putting a lot of strength into a charged attack), maybe.

 

But I always thought that the Run Slide Run Slide Run Slide Run Slide was kinda silly. Just as silly as older FPS games where you'd sprint for 10 feet, jog for 5 feet, sprint for 10 feet, jog for 5 feet, sprint for 10 feet.

Melee sucks enough as it is. The only viable builds are charged builds, and here you are wanting to kill them off entirely.

[ThePresident777]

I think stamina bar should be nightmare mode.

Edited September 20, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Xylia]

 

That doesn't mean it is good for OUR game, though.

What do you have to support your claim that making it so that we can not sprint at all times would not be good for our game? It is your opinion that making it so that we can sprint at all times would be best for our game, and it is my opinion that it would not be best for our game. I have provided the reasonable argument of "if it is possible to sprint at maximum speed at all times, then they should just make it so that we are always moving at that speed instead of having a normal movement speed and a sprinting speed."

 

We don't need slowdowns. This game is built around Tenno moving fast. And besides, there already is only one movement speed: Sprint Slide Sprint Slide Sprint Slide Sprint Slide.

The game is build on mobility, but that does not mean that we are supposed to be "sprinting" at all times.

 

 

99% of everybody who isn't a newbie does either that, or Zorencopter which is even faster.

I am not a newbie and I do not go around spamming the sprint slide because it is very repetitive. I play this game to shoot enemeis, to cast abilities, and to melee enemies

 

I don't know ANYBODY who plays Warframe who is Rank3+ who doesn't Run Slide Run Slide. Public games, friends, Nobody I know doesn't do this already.

People rush through the game at maximum speed because their goal is to complete the levels as fast as possible in order to get certain rewards, and not because it is enjoyable.

 

Since we are all Sprinting every available second, it makes no sense to suddenly make players unable to do so. It adds nothing to the game, and it makes the game less fun. Why make a game less fun? "Realism"? We're freaking Space Ninjas running around doing Parkour in full suits of armor with huge guns strapped to our backs. Look this up:

We are not all sprinting at every available second. It makes perfect sense to make it so so that players are unable to sprint at all times because a sprint is meant to be a temporary boost in speed. Taking the ability to sprint at all times does not make the game less fun, and it might increase people's enjoyment of the game by making it so that they actually play through the content that DE has created instead of skipping most of it.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality

 

Read some of that, to understand why allowing us to Sprint endlessly a little easier really wouldn't hurt the game much.

Sprinting is a bonus that is meant to allow us to run faster than normal for a short amount of time. Allowing us to sprint at all times defeats the purpose of having a sprint. Like I said, if the game would be more enjoyable for us if we could sprint at all times, then why not ask the developers to remove the normal running speed and make it so that we are moving at maximum speed at all times without having to press a sprint key?

 

 

#1: Please learn how to quote.

 

#2: I _do_ want them to make Sprint the new Run Speed and get rid of the Sprint Key. That would be awesome. In fact we kinda-sorta already have that: Toggle Sprint.

 

#3: I know you're not a newbie, and what I meant is when you are not fighting an enemy when you're faced with, say, a large docking bay room, or the corpus capture room, when there are no enemies, what are you doing? Sprint-Sliding. Especially if you had just captured the capture target and you're heading back out of the room and there are no enemies there and you already opened everything in the room. You're trying to tell me you DON'T Sprint-Slide? You must be crazy then, because there's 0 reason to NOT Sprint-Slide if you have a long straight stretch to travel with nothing there (no enemies, containers, etc).

 

#4: There's plenty of people in this thread alone (and many others like it) who give more than enough feedback that Stamina is NOT a well-liked system. It really doesn't add anything at all. Just get rid of it.

 

#5: If DE wants us to "stop and smell the roses" Then they need to make those roses worthy of such treatment. Grineer mobs are plain unfun to fight; I skip them. Not because I don't like treasure/doing battle, but because they are too annoying to fight with their constant knockdowns, hitscan weapons, and other ridiculousness. I frequently engage in gun battles with Corpus; they're not so annoying to fight. Grineer? Yeah I'm getting to the point I'm sick and tired of Grineer missions. I rush em because they're not fun.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Xylia

[Wahooo]

Slowly killing every enemy in a capture mission =/= "content"

 

"Skipping content" would be having a high level friend escort you to all the bosses to farm frames without ever playing the planets, then going and only doing defense or void missions with your new stuff, basically skipping the progression through the planets.  But not like that is a lot of content to be skipped as it is just more of the same stuff with increasing level'd enemies.

 

Running through a room rather than clearing it is just a tactical decision.  As is HOW you might clear the room, and basically choosing if it is worth your while to clear that entire room or just move on.  I play solo nightmare missions.  Sometimes the number of mobs in a room is such that I KNOW 100% even at a lowish level enemies the chance of death is just too large and I don't want to waste a revive.  Is there some point in moving up, THEN going back to kill them all?  Not really.

 

 

One thing about this whole stamina stuff.  Scott wants it to be relevant, is kinda a poor development decision.  It is a bit of a trap a lot of developers get into in the early stages of a game.  They have an idea (usually a good idea) about how their game should be played.  Good on them, they are the developers after all, if it was easy to make a game everyone would do it right? 

So anyway they put the game out as close to their idea as they can, then low and behold the players find ways of doing things in the game the developer had no intention of being part of the gameplay.  But is that a bad thing?  Exploit or Improvement?

Tribes 2 was actually a great game in many ways because of this.  The original Tribes was done in a way that no online game will ever be able to do again.  Player generated scripts and mods and server hosting was encouraged and added so much to the base game play.  When it came time to make T2 the developers looked at many of the most popular player made scripts and mods and some things that were nearly or flat out were, exploits to the game mechanics but became so popular they were FUN and became part of what defined the game, they integrated those things into the next game.  If T2 wasn't such a buggy crashfest at launch it would have been one of the best games ever (though they did change some things to fit with "lore" that they should have just kept in from T1 but meh...)

 

The point is, rather than see the players doing things that didn't fit with the initial vision the developer had, they need to evaluate and embrace what the players are doing and make the game fit that stuff.  This should mean in this case make parkour and wall running and jumping and sliding, the speed of movement and the freedom of movement a BIGGER part of the game, and quit adding ramps and stairs and ways around the fun way to get through a map.

It also means maybe upping the reward a bit for the out of the way/hidden rooms.  Always annoyed to spend time jumping around and getting to a place and finding one open locker with only about 20 credits and a health ball that wont' get used.  Makes me want to give up and just rush through the level.

[Xylia]

Lemme cross-examine something else, that might explain how the "just get rid of it" logic works.

 

There's another (in)famous game out there called World of Warcraft.

 

Yes.

 

THAT WoW.

 

From the game's release ("Vanilla") up to the end of Wrath of the Lich King, WoW had an Ammo system. If you wanted to use a bow, gun, or thrown weapon, you needed ammunition. One class in particular, hunters, relied upon ammunition very heavily. Their melee skills were very craptastic, and if they wanted to do damage, they were forced to use ranged attacks -- that's what the hunter WAS; it was a ranged attacker. Hunters commonly blew through thousands of rounds/arrows in a single dungeon, or couple hours of gameplay. Before Wrath of the Lich King, ammunition stacked to a mere 200. A Hunter (back then) needed a special bag called "Quivers". In WoW, you have your 16-slot backpack, and 4 bag slots where you can equip a bag of your choice. A hunter was forced to use at least 1 of these for their quiver, because quivers increased attacking speed, which increased damage output.

 

So already, hunters were at a disadvantage. At 200 per stack, common quivers were 16-18 slots in size. An 18-slot quiver would give you 3,600 ammunition. A hunter could easily blow through this in about 3 hours of play. Easy. They could carry extra ammunition in other bags, but again, that reduces how much he can carry.

 

In Wrath of the Lich King, they increased the Stack Size to 1,000. This made things a bit more bearable, but this still made hunters go to the AH (or use Engineering) to constantly be making more arrows/bullets.

 

Then Cataclysm came out, and Blizzard.............removed ammo altogether. POOF. No more Ammo. They said that it was unfair that hunters had to carry around that much extra crap, they said that it was unfair that hunters had to spend money to do damage unlike anybody else in the game, and they said the system really didn't add all that much gameplay. It was more REALISTIC, sure, but at the cost of fun.

 

How many hunters hated the change? Very Few. Very, Very few. Most were ecstatic (myself included). Engineers who once sold Ammo on the AH grumbled a bit, but there were plenty of ways to make money by then.

 

But wait, we're not done!

 

From Vanilla up to the end of Cataclysm, every class had a Ranged slot on their paperdoll. If you were a Priest, Mage, or Warlock you needed to stick a Wand in this slot. Wands were pretty much useless after Level 10; the damage they did was laughable at best. You stuck a Wand on, because of the raw stats it provided (usually Intellect) as these stats increased your performance. If you were a Paladin, Shaman (and later) Death Knight, you needed a special item called a Relic (they used to be different by class, but were eventually all combined into a single item type). If you were a hunter or a rogue, you needed to put a bow, gun, or thrown weapon into that slot. Not because you actually needed the weapon, but because you needed the stats.

 

Hunters? Hunters had to carry around melee weapons (that they almost never used).

 

In Mists of Pandaria, what did Blizzard do?

 

They got rid of all the ranged/relic slots.

 

Bows, Guns, and Wands became Main Hand weapons, Warriors and Rogues got Ranged Attack Abilities that did not rely on a ranged weapon so that they could continue to ranged attack/pull, Paladins, Death Knights, and Shamans didn't even notice the change (since their item was a pure stat item). Hunters no longer needed to equip melee weapons.

 

Guess what? IT WORKED. The game was easier to balance, loot tiers were easier to create, we didn't have to make any more guns with Strength on them (which only Warriors would ever use as Hunters/Rogues wanted Agility).

 

Those are two examples of getting rid of a system that is not doing a game any favors. Both examples worked extremely well in the end run.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Xylia

[DiabolusUrsus]

No. Not if it comes at the cost of the fluidity and freedom of movement that makes Warframe feel great to play.

I didn't say it needed to cost fluidity and freedom of movement. Just that we shouldn't have infinite stamina. There's no point in simply cutting out existing portions of the game because you can't be arsed to put some thought into making them contribute something instead of simply annoying you. Why do you need infinite stamina? So you can just use toggle sprint? How often are you actually wallrunning when it isn't for making use of a shortcut or reaching loot? How often do you actually apply wallrunning to combat? How about blocking?

With infinite stamina, there's an excuse to leaving those aspects of Warframe by the sideline. It'd be overpowered if they did something useful for as long as you hold down a key. I'm saying that we should make the aspects of Warframe movement and combat that are more or less vestigial more useful, and tie them into stamina usage in a way that building for a larger stamina pool and/or faster regen offers a viable alternative style of gameplay to people who simply build for maximum energy efficiency or shield strength. Sure, adjust sprinting so it isn't hindered by stamina as much, but don't separate it for the sake of convenience. That doesn't contribute to gameplay. That contributes to mindless rushing. Emphasis on the mindless bit. Rushers are fine... when they take the time to actually help out their teams. But mindless rushers lone-wolf their way through what is supposed to be a co-op game, which is why everyone tells them to go play solo. The same thing applies to people who just want to stealth their way through an entire mission. Too fast. Too slow. It's a delicate balance.

The biggest question is "why shouldn't you have to use stamina mods to have a decent stamina pool?" Those mods were put in for a reason. I doubt it was intended that players are able to build for maximum everything and ignore stamina. There should be a cost to making yourself insanely powerful in one or more respect. Allowing players to have everything isn't good game design. It's what makes people complain that the game gets too easy.

[Brimir]

On the contrary, handicapping people and then adding "band-aid" mods is not what I would call a viable solution.

[scavenge]

Stamina and cooldown had to be the lamest things ever.

[Wahooo]

They also put in mods like Warm Coat for a reason.  Does that mean anyone will ever use it?

[Xylia]

They also put in mods like Warm Coat for a reason.  Does that mean anyone will ever use it?

 

Or Infiltrator.

 

Ooo, +1 second to hack time. What does it give you, maxed out? 5 seconds or some-crap?

 

I've never run out of time hacking a console. Ever. Well, ok. Twice. Once on my very first day of playing, and once on my Rank Test.

[direpinnacle]

I find it odd to this agument that both sides seem to have what I believe is a false assumption: stamina has something to do with rushing.  A couple people tried to point out that with regenning stamina on a slide and the use of melee weapon for agility, rushers don't need to sprint and lose stamina all the time, but I think this needs to be emphasized.

 

Stamina does NOT affect rushers.

 

I play a few frames: a rhino with all rushing mods and the vanguard helm, a frost with none, and a nyx and trinity somewhere in between. With all of these frames, including the slowest possible frame in the game, I can run ahead of a group or make the effort to stay with the group. On very rare occasion will I find (through pugging) someone who is so much faster and more experienced at the game that I fall behind in my frost because he's too slow. 

 

All of this was true before the stamina update, during the couple hours where it was different, and since then. I know the game, the tilesets, how to jump off a wall for a boost, how to take shortcuts in most places, etc. Whether or not I rush away from a group will never have anything to do with the mechanics in the game that everyone is using (that affect running). It is a choice I make about how I play and if I choose to rush faster than a group, then in almost every case I will end up far in front of that group.

 

If stamina is somehow intended to make people stay as a group then it has failed and should be removed. If it has some other purpose (like limiting melee/dodge), then it needs to be totally redone to fit that purpose.

[NIL0S]

The change didn't make it relevant it just made it annoying.  The only down side was having to wait a second before wall running.

 

I have load outs with Marathon/Quickrest/Rush and I have loadouts without, and some with just one or two.  If I move to a loadout that has none after playing with them all?  I notice it.  The extent of the nerf was such that it was annoying even with all three. (granted not maxed) but yeah.

There is a difference between having something be relevant and having something be a hindrance.

Try maxing those mods, awesome running still, way better than unmodded, even unmodded pre-nerf.

I like to rush missions, not all, not always, but when i do, i pick a runner frame with a runner build. It still works.

[KoshLovesYou]

Actually, you know what I've noticed REALLY slowed players down?

 

Adding Navs to drop from crates/storage containers. People actually stop and check those now more frequently.

[Xylia]

Actually, you know what I've noticed REALLY slowed players down?

 

Adding Navs to drop from crates/storage containers. People actually stop and check those now more frequently.

 

And that's a GOOD method of slowing players down.

 

Giving me more reason to stop and check crap is waaaaaaaaaaay better than forcing me to slow down because my character for some stupid reason can't run fast very long without constant sliding.

 

The former is still a choice -- I CHOSE to slow down to open those containers.

The latter is FORCED upon me.

[Ragnarlee_Prime]

And how exactly does nerfing Stamina nerf Zorencoptering?

 

No rusher worth his salt is gonna sprint the entire mission!

TOO IMPRESS A NYX GO HELICOPTER QUICK!

[TisEric]

new Mod ~ Tenno Sneakers Vandal Wraith Prime!

 

run indefinitely! 

[Gigatron-Prime]

Maybe we can get a petition going or spam Steve and Scott's inbox top get rid of the stamina bar. At the very least, lets give it a test run....haha bad pun.

[StuffedTurkey007]

His answer was to add a system that hindered us so that we would notice the bar. My answer is to just get rid of it altogether.

 

If a system isn't relevant why force it to be? Do we really need a stamina bar?

 

Yeah we should just get rid of the energy meter too since it hinders us.

 

In all seriousness, it's a game. There are resources that we have to keep track of, and that limit us when we run out of them. The green bar is important not only because it's a resource you have to balance throughout your gameplay experience, but because there's already a large portion of people who just want to sprint and slide through an entire mission. As far as I know, the game is supposed to be at least somewhat in the combat genre.

[gell]

Yeah we should just get rid of the energy meter too since it hinders us.

 

In all seriousness, it's a game. There are resources that we have to keep track of, and that limit us when we run out of them. The green bar is important not only because it's a resource you have to balance throughout your gameplay experience, but because there's already a large portion of people who just want to sprint and slide through an entire mission. As far as I know, the game is supposed to be at least somewhat in the combat genre.

 

Most of the people here either don't understand, or don't care, that stamina is here for the game overall, and not really a form of anti-rushing. Scott (or was it Steve) said many months ago that if players are rushing through, it's DE's fault for not giving them enough incentive to stick around, and also DE's fault for not making enemies able to keep up with or stop the player. So DE is still going to work on that, and hopefully soon (new mission types seem to address that in part).

 

I'm fine with stamina because I'm used to it from other games. That doesn't mean it gets a free pass in any shape or form, but I do think WF's current stamina works ok. For as long as I can remember in closed beta, stamina was present for sprinting and for melee attacks. It's not like they saw rushing, and then added it. But as Scott said, it was irrelevant that it was there since you never ever had to pay attention to it. It was a negligible system, and in that case, was removable. But now it's not and it makes sense. Its addition early early on means that it was always intended as some form of game-based fatigue, so it makes sense for DE to work on improving the system (no that doesn't mean they're targeting rushers or they hate your fast ninja play style). It just means the system has to matter, because it does add dimension to an otherwise endless barrage of attacks and movement. One could argue that badass ninjas shouldn't need to bother with stamina, and really for the most part, they don't in WF. It's only a few select situations where you will run out of stamina. As an example, it was a much bigger deal in a game like Vindictus, and even then players learned to play with it. I rarely heard complaints about it in that game aside from when you ran out of stamina 100% and your character would stand there heaving and hunched over like an old man, but otherwise, people were fine with it.

 

So DE just needs to look at what they want out of stamina and do the same for all the systems. Energy? Why do we have limited energy? Health? Why do we have limited health? Ammo? Is all this here to make the game worse? No, it's actually there to make it a game, so DE just needs to figure out what that means for the feel of WF, and how to make sure the less useful stamina mods, or blocking system (even with the new mods) works with stamina. I like the idea of stamina, and I think DE is on the right path. Part of the problem of a beta is players will always complain when something they were used to is changed or taken away in some form, and in this case, it's that stamina was never ever an issue, and now it sometimes is.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Yeah we should just get rid of the energy meter too since it hinders us.

 

In all seriousness, it's a game. There are resources that we have to keep track of, and that limit us when we run out of them. The green bar is important not only because it's a resource you have to balance throughout your gameplay experience, but because there's already a large portion of people who just want to sprint and slide through an entire mission. As far as I know, the game is supposed to be at least somewhat in the combat genre.

Ah, but the energy bar prevents the entire game from being "mash 4 as fast as you can", and makes players rely on their guns/weapons too. Stamina serves to just slow down the game, even though players find ways around it STILL without any mods (and like someone else said, it just creates a bunch of useless mods, so it doesn't serve any purpose other than expanding the drop tables)

[Wahooo]

Yeah we should just get rid of the energy meter too since it hinders us.

 

In all seriousness, it's a game. There are resources that we have to keep track of, and that limit us when we run out of them. The green bar is important not only because it's a resource you have to balance throughout your gameplay experience, but because there's already a large portion of people who just want to sprint and slide through an entire mission. As far as I know, the game is supposed to be at least somewhat in the combat genre.

The problem is the stamina bar doesn't actually require any kind of balancing actions or attention from the players standpoint.   You do everything you would do if it weren't there, except sometimes you need to stop and walk a few steps or pause for a couple seconds on a landing.  It isn't a resource in the game to manage in anyway.  Same thing with the initial few hours after U10 where it was pointless to even try and sprint with stamina mods.  There was no need to pay attention to the stamina bar, and it didn't have an effect on any kind of play style, it just slowed everything down.  Whether you were melee slashing through the whole run clearing every room or jumping/wall running and gunning down every enemy or just rushing past them.  The stamina bar did not influence strategy, it didn't change the way anyone played it just made the game slower for some.

[Thelonious]

I'm all up for removing stamina altogether, even if it's only until the stamina system is reworked untirely.

But it would take so much effort to achieve a consistent, efficient, synergized system that it could take ages...

 

I mean, as long as Zorencopter exists, trying to hinder rushers through any stamina limitation is pointless. Unless stamina is required to slide-melee (and take the risk of constantly having a "not enough stamina" displayed on the screen).

But then normal melee would so much suffer from it that it would be even more worthless : 10 swings and you're out of stamina, unable to run away while the enemy laughs from the tickles you just inflicted him.

You would have to completly redo the melee system too, by buffing it (10 rank pressure point! more grinding!), or by reworking each and every melee weapon in the game. Or just rely entirely on charge attacks, since it'so much more stamina efficient, and come back to what we had a few months ago, where normal attacks weapons were just useless.

 

Not to mention how a nightmare it is to manage stamina without a proper UI that clearly shows it, and not just an indinstinct green line somewhere at the top right corner of your screen.

It's hard enough managing your health, shields and energy with that crappy UI (admit it, it's just bad).

Hopefully it will be reworked soon too. Centralized UI plz: the action is in the middle of the screen, not at the limit of my vision angle.

 

 

And without stamina, the current systems that depend on it could work just fine too: 

 - no limit in running/wallrunning, melee, etc: There's already so few most players wouldn't notice the difference.

 

 - For blocking, we could just make it so you can't run while blocking:

You either chose to mitigate incoming damage or run to cover, not both at the same time.

You either chose to run straight to the enemy running fast, or go slower and block. 

Both are equally viable in my opinion.

 

 - For dodging, errr...you can already dodge without any stamina left. Sooo, yeah, wouldn't change much. Imo dodging in the current state is just as worthless as before. We don't even know how much it mitigates damage. Not much according to my experience.

It's a bit like blocking: you either mitigate damage while moving slowly, or you run while attacking.

[Nagisawa]

Like always, still don't notice a difference in the old or new stamina. I can still sprint and whatever just as fine as before.

Yeah, same here.  Nothing I do requires me to actually notice it.