Out With Drop Tables! In With Token System.

[CrazyCatLad]

Can't stress it enough, Token System for Void.  T1 gives 1 token, T2 Gives 2, T3 Gives 3-4 Tokens.

 

 

Balance costs of specific items accordingly.

 

 

Signed.

[shinydunsparce]

 Fair enough. Open-mindedness is useful for this sort of topic. 

 

 The way I see it, the actual problem staring us all back in the face is incredibly simple.

 

 We've got a reasonably long grind chain set up in the game now. Unfortunately, we don't happen to have a safety net set up. This is something you just touched on quite nicely above.

 

 "a system that creates an opportunity where no matter how hard someone works it is possible for them to never be rewarded?"    

 

 This is grazing the truth quite closely. Currently, it is far too easy for a player to be asked to run a single piece of content for as few as three or a many as a hundred runs easily. There is absolutely nothing defending a player from being required to do 50+ runs for a simple enough goal like obtaining 'That last piece'.

 

 This is, of course, a nasty problem. Without something to spring a player from a grind trap burn out is just made so much worse - since there is no worse medicine for repetition then being asked to repeat something even more.

 

 So with that on the table, how do we prevent it?

 

 Do we talk about and explore the idea of including a form of Item transmutation with a more specific function then 'Put in 4 things and get something random.'? Surely any player who is stuck in a grind trap has, at the very least, worked up a few duplicates of the parts of what he is grinding for that he already owns, yeah? So it would follow that allowing those duplicates to be transmuted directly into the part RNG is holding back would be a fairly effective was of pulling people out of the grind trap.

 

 

 Do we continue to talk about the value of Trading and how it'd be incredible to be able to use my duplicates to secure the part I need along with help someone secure something they need? I'd gladly part with a part I no longer need, like the often sought after Vauban BP's, for the Rhino Helmet I am personally in need of. Surely there is value in two players springing each other from the grind trap. 

 

 

  These are just observations and rough thoughts I've seen recently on the issue. Those are both, in my opinion, equally effective to the often suggested Token system.

 

The only issue is that transmutation is just another RNG roll. Why do we need this when we could have a system that can guarantee loot / reward players for effort / have a sense of progression towards a goal at the same time? If people still want their random drops from the random keys the missions could still have a chance to give a random bp in addition to tokens very rarely. 

[Guest]

Can't stress it enough, Token System for Void.  T1 gives 1 token, T2 Gives 2, T3 Gives 3-4 Tokens.

 

 

Balance costs of specific items accordingly.

 

 

Signed.

Earth Token for Trinity

 

Uranus Token for Ash

 

Mercury Token for Seer

 

and so on and so forth

 

yes pelase

[Onihikage]

The main problem with these tokens is that I don't think they could be fit into the lore. Platinum doesn't need to fit because it's already an element which originates outside of the game, with your own real money, but tokens? Where would those fit in? How would they somehow be able to help acquire weapon parts? Is there some kind of impenetrable Orokin Weapon Shop that only takes Orokin Tokens which just happen to be all over the place in the Void and/or on regular enemies? I don't see it making sense in the context of the game.

 

I think dynamic drop tables would be better. As a simple example, suppose there are 10 available rewards for a given void mission, each with a 10% chance of acquisition. When a player gets one, the chance of acquiring it drops to 0% for the next mission, and the other 9 items each receive an increase in their reward chance such that the total percentage of all the items is 100% (in this example, one item with 0% chance and 9 others with 11.11%. In this scenario, after maybe 10 runs without acquiring one particular item, that item's chance of being rewarded has increased to around 20%, while the other 9 items are at various chances below 10%, all adding up to 100%.

 

That way, the longer one goes without acquiring an item, the more likely they would be to get it next time around. You could still get an item multiple times, and it's not a guarantee that every x runs you'll have acquired one of every possible drop, but you'll never get the same drop twice in a row, and you can forge ahead knowing that every time you make a run and don't get the reward drop you were looking for, you have an even better chance of getting it the next time. Expanding this to all the drop tables, for mods and resources alike, would keep gameplay interesting for new and old players alike, while toppling the tyranny of the RNG gods. Furthermore, adding new items to the loot tables would no longer have a negative effect on the drop rates of other items in the table, merely slow down the cycle.

 

How would it work with multiple players? Simple - the game would make a weighted average of the players' drop tables together for drop calculations. This means that multiple players all farming for a certain drop could band together to further improve the chances for getting it to drop. As for how item rarity affects the dynamic rates, I figure rarer items will increase their chances more slowly than uncommon, which will likewise increase more slowly than common. You might get the same common mod a few times before getting a rare that you sought, but you are still basically guaranteed to get it within a reasonable timeframe (side note: WarFrame needs a Time Lord Frame). You wouldn't even have to play the same level - completing any level that includes that item in its drop table would still add to its drop chance if you didn't get it.

 

- Every drop would eventually reach 100% chance (more quickly if you team up) if you don't get it enough times, so every potential drop IS guaranteed eventually, no need for luck

- Lowers the need for grinding; by the time a new player has made it through every level in the solar system, they're likely to have gotten every drop at least once, and by the time they burn through the keys they got during that time, they'll have gotten many drops from those as well.

- Players get what they want with a bit of effort, strategy plays a role, and playing with the same team over multiple missions is encouraged.

- How the players want to play the levels doesn't (and shouldn't) matter - if they want to explore or run-and-gun, they can do whatever they want, the weighted dynamic drop table will do its job either way.

 

Should I make a separate thread for this idea? Seems like maybe I should.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Onihikage

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Leading to players grinding same easiest token giving content over and over, leaving other content to gather dust.

How's that any different from what we have now, except with people farming defense?

Or in this case, farming void until they have the specific primes they want and then leaving void to dust except for defense?

 

The main problem with these tokens is that I don't think they could be fit into the lore. Platinum doesn't need to fit because it's already an element which originates outside of the game, with your own real money, but tokens? Where would those fit in? How would they somehow be able to help acquire weapon parts? Is there some kind of impenetrable Orokin Weapon Shop that only takes Orokin Tokens which just happen to be all over the place in the Void and/or on regular enemies? I don't see it making sense in the context of the game.

How's this for an idea:

Morphics are an amorphous solid and are implied to be orokin tech, right? Forma is like morphics' big brother and is able to change a gun's base attributes (ie polarity.) It's also used in dojo construction, something which is totally different, so it's a pretty versatile piece of technology.

So what we can do is introduce a third type of this resource. Call it Morpha or Muta or Changea or something. In practicality, it's a token, but in lore it's a shape-changing orokin material that, when you get enough, can be induced into forming certain prime weapon components.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[SirEdwin]

I'd even be happier with a less drastic overhaul. my 3 very simple ideas would be either a) the option to re-roll your void reward. Finish the void, and if the void reward is something you have or just don't need? Re-roll it. Sure, you could still get something you don't need, but at least it's a shot at something you do need. 2) have a roll 3 pick one system. Every run the RNG generates 3 rewards from the possible loot table, and you get to pick which of the 3 rewards to take. Lastly, Switch the loot system so that each tier drops different rewards, common rewards from tier-1, and higher rewards as the level goes up, and let people chose whatever they want from the list when they finish. Could throw in stacks of materials or whatnot as well to keep the voids valuable after you have all the specific drops. 

[Arlayn]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/112288-gashapon-token-system-counter-concept-on-tokens-concept-for-rng-improvement/

the RNG still has room for improvement and can become far more fun... don't give up on it yet, the Token system is just one big joke... it won't help us.

[thejynxed]

Token systems....where you end up doing the World of Warcraft-style daily/weekly grind for minimal reward and high cost.

 

And don't even try to gloss that over. Every single game that has a token system carbon-copied WoW's terrible token system, including the stupid limits on the amounts you could earn and by attaching stupidly high prices.

Edited September 24, 2013 by thejynxed

[Arlayn]

Token system... its a farm in a farm... disguised as a good idea when really its just Nekros all over again... except for its to get EVERYTHING IN THE GAME!

[Loswaith]

The thing about token is... What is stopping DE from setting ridiculous token rates on some items ?

....

Actually the thing with a token system is it is totally transparent.  With a RNG system DE can change the drop rate of something from 25% to 2% drop chance and simply tell us its still 25% and you are just unlucky.

 

RNG in its simplest form is just making you wait un undisclosed ammoutn of time.

 

The simple fact is we already have a token system infused throughout the game with resources.

Current system is RNG for blueprints that need TOKENS that are again gained by RNG.

 

The recent costs for the infested weapns are a prime example of the strength of transparency, players being able to say "this costs too much", and it can get looked at and fixed.

 

There is no reason a token system cant be a safety net for RNG either.

 

Most people do a mission for the loot, if you dont get some progression towards that loot, you are essentially wasting your time. A token system is seen as using that time if you get some, you get ever closer to your goal so there is some progression towards an end result.  A progressing player is happier and likely to spend more time in the game, an unhappy player is more liekly to leave the game.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Loswaith

[Blatantfool]

The only issue is that transmutation is just another RNG roll. Why do we need this when we could have a system that can guarantee loot / reward players for effort / have a sense of progression towards a goal at the same time? If people still want their random drops from the random keys the missions could still have a chance to give a random bp in addition to tokens very rarely. 

 

 Of course, the answer to that is simply 'This one isn't any typical RNG slot system.'

 

 Keep in mind that the item transmute I'm talking about shares only a name with what is already in the game. The function would be very different.

 

 In my opinion, it should work as follows:

 

-The player can put up to four items in. If those items are all identical and all belong to something like a single Warframe they will then be prompted to 'pick transmutation'.  Put in 4 Ember Systems? You'll be able to pick between Ember Helmet and Ember Chassis. The credit price will be quite heavy. I'd start it out around 250k credits. (Keep reading, I can explain why that can be worth it.)

 

-If a Player puts in two duplicates of two of the three frame part (Like 2 Systems and 2 Helmets from a frame) it'll always come out the third piece. It'll always be the same price as listed above, this'll just be the game recognizing which piece you are probably missing based on which parts you've ended up with duplicates of.

 

-To bring down the Credits price players will be able to put in more then four items, so long as those items are a duplicate of one of the ingredients in the transmutation. Have you put 4 Rhino Systems in? Have 4 more? Put those in too. The price will drop the more you put in. 4 Duplicates? 25% drop in price. 8? 50% drop. 250k is now 75k. Expensive but still in the ball park.

 

-If you mix and match parts between recipes you'll get something random - however frame parts cannot randomly become Void parts and Void parts cannot randomly become a Frame part that isn't found in Void.  On top of this, you cannot put extra materials into a mix-matched Item Transmute. If you want to use it as a slot machine you'll have to pay full price.

 

-Void BP Transmuting is far more expensive Credits wise, requiring far more Duplicate parts for any newer player to be able to use it. I'd consider starting it around 500k credits, considering I still think the above method of using further duplicates to lower the price should still work.

[fatpig84]

Borderlands 2 use an ingame lore thingy to cover up the Token system for Seraph class weapons

 

Now Seraph items ain't cheap. Some stuff cost 120 Seraph Crystals to make and most bosses don't drop no more than 10 if you are lucky. And you can only raid them once a day to prevent farming too quickly.

 

But they STILL kept at the RNG system. 

People can still get Seraph item drops directly from a boss kill themselves, thus skipping the grind for xxx figures of crystals.

 

 

There is no need to be mutually exclusive imo.

Edited September 24, 2013 by fatpig84

[Goth667]

That would gimp player trying to get that item in PUG. Since other players might just lower his chances without him knowing it.

 

With farming cheap stuff yes you could do that but if system is properly weighted you would get very small amount of points from easy to farm stuff.. My "recycling" idea would not let you easily farm 20 same bp since you would effort to reward included. BP would have lower point value than crafted items. Since those would include resouce/credits and time sink included. Void BP would have higer point value than normal bp since you need to farm keys first. 

 

OR

 

Puting a DR on point value from puting same copies in certian time frame would prevent abusing system by farming cheap BP. Second same item in 24H would for example give only 80% of tis normal value. 3rd 60% 4th 40% 5th+ 20%

 

No it would make pugs go like "I need System, who else?". Also it would give the whole party the best chances for stuff they are missing. Granted that if only 1 guy needs the Helmet and the other 3 have 20 of those the 1 guy has no chance, but he would get something he doesn't need witch in turn highers his chance for the next run.

 

 

 

The main problem with these tokens is that I don't think they could be fit into the lore. Platinum doesn't need to fit because it's already an element which originates outside of the game, with your own real money, but tokens? Where would those fit in? How would they somehow be able to help acquire weapon parts? Is there some kind of impenetrable Orokin Weapon Shop that only takes Orokin Tokens which just happen to be all over the place in the Void and/or on regular enemies? I don't see it making sense in the context of the game.

 

I think dynamic drop tables would be better. As a simple example, suppose there are 10 available rewards for a given void mission, each with a 10% chance of acquisition. When a player gets one, the chance of acquiring it drops to 0% for the next mission, and the other 9 items each receive an increase in their reward chance such that the total percentage of all the items is 100% (in this example, one item with 0% chance and 9 others with 11.11%. In this scenario, after maybe 10 runs without acquiring one particular item, that item's chance of being rewarded has increased to around 20%, while the other 9 items are at various chances below 10%, all adding up to 100%.

 

That way, the longer one goes without acquiring an item, the more likely they would be to get it next time around. You could still get an item multiple times, and it's not a guarantee that every x runs you'll have acquired one of every possible drop, but you'll never get the same drop twice in a row, and you can forge ahead knowing that every time you make a run and don't get the reward drop you were looking for, you have an even better chance of getting it the next time. Expanding this to all the drop tables, for mods and resources alike, would keep gameplay interesting for new and old players alike, while toppling the tyranny of the RNG gods. Furthermore, adding new items to the loot tables would no longer have a negative effect on the drop rates of other items in the table, merely slow down the cycle.

 

How would it work with multiple players? Simple - the game would make a weighted average of the players' drop tables together for drop calculations. This means that multiple players all farming for a certain drop could band together to further improve the chances for getting it to drop. As for how item rarity affects the dynamic rates, I figure rarer items will increase their chances more slowly than uncommon, which will likewise increase more slowly than common. You might get the same common mod a few times before getting a rare that you sought, but you are still basically guaranteed to get it within a reasonable timeframe (side note: WarFrame needs a Time Lord Frame). You wouldn't even have to play the same level - completing any level that includes that item in its drop table would still add to its drop chance if you didn't get it.

 

- Every drop would eventually reach 100% chance (more quickly if you team up) if you don't get it enough times, so every potential drop IS guaranteed eventually, no need for luck

- Lowers the need for grinding; by the time a new player has made it through every level in the solar system, they're likely to have gotten every drop at least once, and by the time they burn through the keys they got during that time, they'll have gotten many drops from those as well.

- Players get what they want with a bit of effort, strategy plays a role, and playing with the same team over multiple missions is encouraged.

- How the players want to play the levels doesn't (and shouldn't) matter - if they want to explore or run-and-gun, they can do whatever they want, the weighted dynamic drop table will do its job either way.

 

Should I make a separate thread for this idea? Seems like maybe I should.

 

Isn't that exactly what I said? Just more Text?

Still I think that's the best way to do it.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Goth667

[Loswaith]

Problem with token system is that it almost always ends with players forced to grind tokens to get some must have gear. Leading to players grinding same easiest token giving content over and over, leaving other content to gather dust. With RNG spread out players  are more spread out allowing to find a co-op group easier. If you look at many new mmo, their loot tables start to look like throw players some scraps and for rest make them grind tokens. I would rather keep RNG and be able to hand out stuff i dont need to get "tokens" based on rarity of things,  than sit stuck at grinding jackal for weeks cos powergaming crowd says its da best boss for farming tokenz. With DR on drops from boss overfaming and a bit carefull tweaking on frame parts pricing you would achieve much better spread of players than just making boss drop currency directly.

This already happens now (players are already focused into a handful of missions because it has the best or only drop chance), adding a token system wont change that aspect of the game, but can add the choice to play elsewhere (though it may not be as optimal).

 

Keep in mind a token system can be as grindy or not grindy as the developer wants it to be.  The designers have full control over the amount of tokens you get and the amount you need to spend to get stuff (effort for reward).  Current MMO token system are a grind because the game designers want it that way.

 

 

On Dynamic Drop tables:

 While a nice idea the logistics of such are astounding.  Think about it, lets say warframe has maybe 100 or so individual drop tables, each of those need to be tracked for an individual player (along with their influence for the group).  WIth an account base of 100,000 players, thats a potential of effectivly 10,000,000 additional data elements to be tracking.

 

On Theme:

 Tokens can be anything, from lotus commendations, to nav points, to morphics, to detonite samples, to weapon parts, to forma, to fuzzy slippers, to grineer ears.  Credits are the simplest token system currently working in the game.   So making them thematic is actually the smallest of issues.

 Many other things aren't all that thematic either, so it may not even matter that they are thematic.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Loswaith

[Ced23Ric]

Since I highly dislike the repetitive grind to get a chance to roll dive that may never be in my favour, and I much rather have tangible, even if slow, progress towards a goal, I highly approve of a token system. It has been mentioned before, but the response of "We're looking into it." seems rather hollow if down the line we are getting Droprate Fiasco v2.0 instead.

[Blatantfool]

Since I highly dislike the repetitive grind to get a chance to roll dive that may never be in my favour, and I much rather have tangible, even if slow, progress towards a goal, I highly approve of a token system. It has been mentioned before, but the response of "We're looking into it." seems rather hollow if down the line we are getting Droprate Fiasco v2.0 instead.

 

 I'd value your opinion on 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110466-out-with-drop-tables-in-with-token-system/?p=1301132

 

 as a possible alternative to a Token system.

[KONAir]

 Of course, the answer to that is simply 'This one isn't any typical RNG slot system.'

 

 Keep in mind that the item transmute I'm talking about shares only a name with what is already in the game. The function would be very different.

 

 In my opinion, it should work as follows:

 

-The player can put up to four items in. If those items are all identical and all belong to something like a single Warframe they will then be prompted to 'pick transmutation'.  Put in 4 Ember Systems? You'll be able to pick between Ember Helmet and Ember Chassis. The credit price will be quite heavy. I'd start it out around 250k credits. (Keep reading, I can explain why that can be worth it.)

 

...

 

This can be further simplified with "tokens", where you have generic "Chasis, System and Helmet" items, and go find "Ember Forma", then Transmute "Chasis + Ember Forma" without extreme credit costs. But then again this will require bosses to actually drop the damn things and with DE doesn't seem to be willing to lessen the grind... yeah.

 

But that would have been a great "clan attractor" if you could cheaply produce "Chasis, System and Helmet" items in Dojos and you only go around collecting "xframe forma".

[Blatantfool]

This can be further simplified with "tokens", where you have generic "Chasis, System and Helmet" items, and go find "Ember Forma", then Transmute "Chasis + Ember Forma" without extreme credit costs. But then again this will require bosses to actually drop the damn things and with DE doesn't seem to be willing to lessen the grind... yeah.

 

But that would have been a great "clan attractor" if you could cheaply produce "Chasis, System and Helmet" items in Dojos and you only go around collecting "xframe forma".

 

 I suggest my bizarre Item Transmutation with the idea that the Drop rates of the actual components would be seeing little to no change. Just so you know which page I'm on.

 

  I put the entire thing together in an attempt to suggest something I thought would create a proper safety net without having to change much about what is already in place.

[TunaMayo]

The only issue I see with a token system is the insistence of grind. There is no off chance that you could possibly obtain said item in just a few runs, you would HAVE to grind for the minimum amount of time.

As someone previously mentioned, do a loot system and a token system have to be mutually exclusive?

One method could be similar to blatant's idea:

Earn loot as we do now, also getting "transmute" tokens.

Use transmute tokens to change unwanted gear into potentially ideal gear. Never getting the same gear out as you put in (see blatant's post).

Might not be perfect with the transmute system. But at least you could gradually make your way to an item whilst also having a stab at rng granting you your prize early.

[Keltik0ne]

The only issue I see with a token system is the insistence of grind. There is no off chance that you could possibly obtain said item in just a few runs, you would HAVE to grind for the minimum amount of time.

As someone previously mentioned, do a loot system and a token system have to be mutually exclusive?

One method could be similar to blatant's idea:

Earn loot as we do now, also getting "transmute" tokens.

Use transmute tokens to change unwanted gear into potentially ideal gear. Never getting the same gear out as you put in (see blatant's post).

Might not be perfect with the transmute system. But at least you could gradually make your way to an item whilst also having a stab at rng granting you your prize early.

The problem with RNG is, you end up with people like me, missing 1 bit of most void weapons but with large numbers of useless spare parts.

 

Being one of DEs statistical outliers is fun.

[Ced23Ric]

 In my opinion, it should work as follows:

 

As an interrim system or a backup plan, this has certainly value, but if you are anything like me, you sell the excess. And moving right along - why am I paying 250k after building 4 parts from blue prints, which costs a good chunk of cash and resources in its own right? Not a friend of the credit cost, not a fan of this being a one-stop solution.

 

As an interrim while we switch to a token system, this has merit, though. Albeit at different pricing.

[Blatantfool]

As an interrim system or a backup plan, this has certainly value, but if you are anything like me, you sell the excess. And moving right along - why am I paying 250k after building 4 parts from blue prints, which costs a good chunk of cash and resources in its own right? Not a friend of the credit cost, not a fan of this being a one-stop solution.

 

As an interrim while we switch to a token system, this has merit, though. Albeit at different pricing.

 

 The idea is that it is only really supposed to be useful to bail you out of the grind trap. 

 

 People in the grind trap tend to stack up many, many duplicates of what they don't need. I take that into account with the cost thing.

 

 Just got 4 of something? Then you can use it, but it'll cost you. Have 8? Now it'll cost much less. Managed to get 12 parts of that frame you can't use? Now you're down to half the Transmute cost. Still not good enough? Keep going. Keep running the boss for the final 75% price cut. 

 

 Do you see what I was building up to with it? The further into the grind trap you are the cheaper your bailout with this would get. 

 

 It isn't a good solution right away, it is a good solution when you are at the point where you have run the boss like crazy and know damn well the grind trap has claimed you. You'll either keep running the boss and finally get your part OR you'll have amassed enough duplicates where now you can cash them in and snag the last piece through transmute.

 

 It is a safety net.

[Ced23Ric]

It is a safety net.

 

I don't want 12 Chassis to begin with. Your idea has merits, in an interim situation on the way towards a token system, is my point.

[Blatantfool]

I don't want 12 Chassis to begin with. Your idea has merits, in an interim situation on the way towards a token system, is my point.

 

 Well, to be honest, my idea revolves around not trying to cut all the grind out - because in the long run it is a lot of necessary fat to keep us wolves chewing through something. 

 

 Even if a token system is added there is an extremely high likeliness DE will ensure that at least a certain amount of grind exists even using that.

 

  

 In a roundabout sort of way my idea isn't too far off from a token shop anyhow. Only difference is that my 'shop' is just a Transmute feature with a more direct purpose and my 'tokens' are just the BPs people already end up with a ton of anyway.

[Sakatox]

 Well, to be honest, my idea revolves around not trying to cut all the grind out - because in the long run it is a lot of necessary fat to keep us wolves chewing through something. 

 

 Even if a token system is added there is an extremely high likeliness DE will ensure that at least a certain amount of grind exists even using that.

 

  

 In a roundabout sort of way my idea isn't too far off from a token shop anyhow. Only difference is that my 'shop' is just a Transmute feature with a more direct purpose and my 'tokens' are just the BPs people already end up with a ton of anyway.

Transmuting would be RNG. RNG is bad.