Last post wins

[phoenix1992]

15 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Come again?

DE said, that people do not play raids - okay. But the proof they showed was in direct contrast with the data we were getting from the ladder board sites. The only way for such a discrepancy can occur is if the data was from the overall life span of Warframe - and indeed, if you took the 6 years (at the time), of which the game was up and running, it would turn out that less than 1% of the players did this mission.  But also less than 1% of the accounts that ever launched the game are active to begin with. DE has shown those charts for "how much a frame is used" as well, and they routinely showcase Loki Starter, even though Loki hasn't been started for majority of the game lifespan.

Graph's be damned, what occurred in the forum, reddit and youtube and the time was the bigger issue. People like mogamu uploaded "guides" about how to do the raids, which could be summarized with "since you can use valkyr to tank damage, this is the loadout to go for". Which is as hilarious as bringing our beloved kitty cat to eidolons due to the same reason. The sad finality of LoR was, that you could complete a run really fast if you felt like it (my personal record is under 12 mins), and around 20-25 minutes if you have new players and have to explain what to do. However this information was usually provided by other players in discords, not in youtube or wiki.

Additionally when the announcement for cancellation came, couple of people like Zanagoth and Venn went into a direct conversation with DE themselves, in which.. .absolutely no new information was given outside of a vague promise of "it may come back". 


Now when you draw the line, this is not an issue that effected all players - maybe 2-5k + the Raid School Bus community? In the peak of PoE? Not many for the numbers of the day, however it was the first instance in my game time (2015-2020), in which such a major mismatch occurred between "de said" and "free data that is in front of us". The only other situations that were in such scope are Vivergate (the patch that "did not occur"), Focus 2.0 (you just need couple of years of daily grind to cap it), the Ember Deluxe skin (which is a can of worms which is way too convoluted) and of course the Ton..Atter...Bramma nerf.

 

  

15 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Wait tell me in a DM i think I know where this is going. Its not OT safe.

It is pretty much OT safe, since most players in OT are old guns and can think of couple of occasions in which they were greatly disappointed in the community, DE or in general. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by phoenix1992

[Magus_Tahir]

3 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

DE said, that people do not play raids - okay. But the proof they showed was in direct contrast with the data we were getting from the ladder board sites. The only way for such a discrepancy can occur is if the data was from the overall life span of Warframe - and indeed, if you took the 6 years (at the time), of which the game was up and running, it would turn out that less than 1% of the players did this mission.  But also less than 1% of the accounts that ever launched the game are active to begin with. DE has shown those charts for "how much a frame is used" as well, and they routinely showcase Loki Starter, even though Loki hasn't been started for majority of the game lifespan.

Graph's be damned, what occurred in the forum, reddit and youtube and the time was the bigger issue. People like mogamu uploaded "guides" about how to do the raids, which could be summarized with "since you can use valkyr to tank damage, this is the loadout to go for". Which is as hilarious as bringing our beloved kitty cat to eidolons due to the same reason. The sad finality of LoR was, that you could complete a run really fast if you felt like it (my personal record is under 12 mins), and around 20-25 minutes if you have new players and have to explain what to do. However this information was usually provided by other players in discords, not in youtube or wiki.

Additionally when the announcement for cancellation came, couple of people like Zanagoth and Venn went into a direct conversation with DE themselves, in which.. .absolutely no new information was given outside of a vague promise of "it may come back". 


Now when you draw the line, this is not an issue that effected all players - maybe 2-5k + the Raid School Bus community? In the peak of PoE? Not many for the numbers of the day, however it was the first instance in my game time (2015-2020), in which such a major mismatch occurred between "de said" and "free data that is in front of us". The only other situations that were in such scope are Vivergate (the patch that "did not occur"), Focus 2.0 (you just need couple of years of daily grind to cap it), the Ember Deluxe skin (which is a can of worms which is way too convoluted) and of course the Ton..Atter...Bramma nerf.

Oh. When you said raids I thought you meant WoW from yesterdays talk. Idk enough about raids in WF or its history to make an informed opinion I have no context.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Magus_Tahir said:

Oh. When you said raids I thought you meant WoW from yesterdays talk. Idk enough about raids in WF or its history to make an informed opinion I have no context.

I would not speak about WoW raids in here, or I risk people getting PTSD flashbacks.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

5 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

DE said, that people do not play raids - okay. But the proof they showed was in direct contrast with the data we were getting from the ladder board sites. The only way for such a discrepancy can occur is if the data was from the overall life span of Warframe - and indeed, if you took the 6 years (at the time), of which the game was up and running, it would turn out that less than 1% of the players did this mission.  But also less than 1% of the accounts that ever launched the game are active to begin with. DE has shown those charts for "how much a frame is used" as well, and they routinely showcase Loki Starter, even though Loki hasn't been started for majority of the game lifespan.

Graph's be damned, what occurred in the forum, reddit and youtube and the time was the bigger issue. People like mogamu uploaded "guides" about how to do the raids, which could be summarized with "since you can use valkyr to tank damage, this is the loadout to go for". Which is as hilarious as bringing our beloved kitty cat to eidolons due to the same reason. The sad finality of LoR was, that you could complete a run really fast if you felt like it (my personal record is under 12 mins), and around 20-25 minutes if you have new players and have to explain what to do. However this information was usually provided by other players in discords, not in youtube or wiki.

Additionally when the announcement for cancellation came, couple of people like Zanagoth and Venn went into a direct conversation with DE themselves, in which.. .absolutely no new information was given outside of a vague promise of "it may come back". 


Now when you draw the line, this is not an issue that effected all players - maybe 2-5k + the Raid School Bus community? In the peak of PoE? Not many for the numbers of the day, however it was the first instance in my game time (2015-2020), in which such a major mismatch occurred between "de said" and "free data that is in front of us". The only other situations that were in such scope are Vivergate (the patch that "did not occur"), Focus 2.0 (you just need couple of years of daily grind to cap it), the Ember Deluxe skin (which is a can of worms which is way too convoluted) and of course the Ton..Atter...Bramma nerf.

 

  

It is pretty much OT safe, since most players in OT are old guns and can think of couple of occasions in which they were greatly disappointed in the community, DE or in general. 

Summed up perfectly. I guess the thing that makes me upset is they removed raids yet lunario and conclave are still in game. Like by des own standards and numbers nobody plays them as well. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

I would not speak about WoW raids in here, or I risk people getting PTSD flashbacks.

Couldn’t be worse then bdo enchanting 

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Couldn’t be worse then bdo enchanting 

Well no, since WoW's profession and economy systems are worse than the raids.

You can in theory raid in WoW without ever mingling with other aspects of the game.

[Magus_Tahir]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Couldn’t be worse then bdo enchanting 

Uuughhhh BDO love Wizards the game grinds my gears.

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Well no, since WoW's profession and economy systems are worse than the raids.

You can in theory raid in WoW without ever mingling with other aspects of the game.

Yeah WoW is a shadow of its former self. Its crap. 15 years I played that game. 6 almost 7 of those years with the same guild.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Magus_Tahir said:

Yeah WoW is a shadow of its former self. Its crap. 15 years I played that game. 6 almost 7 of those years with the same guild.

Sad, but a shadow of a great being is still more than what we can say about other companies.

And when I draw the line for both Warframe and WoW - i do not regret playing either, I regret not bailing sooner.

[Aldain]

I sometimes wonder why it is so hard for people to get MMOs right, you either have things that are loosely defined as MMOs but are more something else (usually a currency grinding simulator) or you have something so clunky that it isn't fun to play because it leans too far into the old-fashioned MMO conventions where the concept of QoL doesn't exist.

Not that I know much about what makes MMOs good, the only "traditional" MMO I've only ever played is FF14, so I likely lack the experience to speak on the subject.

[phoenix1992]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I sometimes wonder why it is so hard for people to get MMOs right, you either have things that are loosely defined as MMOs but are more something else (usually a currency grinding simulator) or you have something so clunky that it isn't fun to play because it leans too far into the old-fashioned MMO conventions where the concept of QoL doesn't exist.

Not that I know much about what makes MMOs good, the only "traditional" MMO I've only ever played is FF14, so I likely lack the experience to speak on the subject.

The reason is cost effectiveness.

It is a lot cheaper to upkeep a game like... let's say BDO (no hard feelings towards player of it), than something like FF, Guild Wars 2, ESO or old school WoW. It is not about graphics fidelity, it takes a lot of work from professionals in order for a game to actually be good and not just passable.
 

Edited July 15, 2020 by phoenix1992

[Magus_Tahir]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

I sometimes wonder why it is so hard for people to get MMOs right, you either have things that are loosely defined as MMOs but are more something else (usually a currency grinding simulator) or you have something so clunky that it isn't fun to play because it leans too far into the old-fashioned MMO conventions where the concept of QoL doesn't exist.

Not that I know much about what makes MMOs good, the only "traditional" MMO I've only ever played is FF14, so I likely lack the experience to speak on the subject.

There is no perfect MMO, only perfect MMO's.

That is to say thats why so many types of massive multiplayers exist. Audiences gather around the game and the experience. It is also why games change as audiences grow they want more and to stay relevant MMO's start to expand. Not always successful mind you. It is not always clear what gets players to flock to a title. Story, game play, challenge, and art style to name a few.

Some prefer their games to be social experiences. I know people in FFXIV who do nothing but chat and RP all day. The endgame raiders for FFXIV is actually thier smallest faction of players even tho the raids are amazing. So what makes a good MMO? No idea. If the industry knew we would only have one.

 

[Aldain]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

The reason is cost effectiveness.

That probably would explain it.

Though there's also that whole "clunky design choices" thing that no amount of money can solve sometimes. I don't have any personal experience with them, but sometimes MMO horror stories will slip into my Youtube recommendations and it just makes me wonder how human beings can make things that bad. 

That's not even counting the bad monetization problems some have, I'm talking about broken gameplay mechanics that should have died in the 90s.

[Magus_Tahir]

8 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

The reason is cost effectiveness.

It is a lot cheaper to upkeep a game like... let's say BDO (no hard feelings towards player of it), than something like FF, Guild Wars 2, ESO or old school WoW. It is not about graphics fidelity, it takes a lot of work from professionals in order for a game to actually be good and not just passable.
 

Sorta? SWTOR initial release cost 200 million to make.

BDO Cost 1 million dollars American to make which is very low on game production costs. Anthem is rumored to be around 175 million in dev cost.

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Sorta? SWTOR initial release cost 200 million to make.

BDO Cost 1 million dollars American to make which is very low on game production costs. Anthem is rumored to be around 175 million in dev cost.

Tossing money at something is not exactly the same as "cost effective".

Ok, let's put it in a checklist with 100 $

1. Graphical design - 10
2. Story design - 5
3. Sound Design -15 
4. Gameplay Design - 10
5. Retention mechanics - 30
6. PR - 30

Modern games spend way too much on things with low value, but high cost. However, that does not mean that the things with high value, are cheap - a good story takes years to craft and execute (and one The horde means nothing to kill) 

Edited July 15, 2020 by phoenix1992

[Magus_Tahir]

10 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Tossing money at something is not exactly the same as "cost effective".

Ok, let's put it in a checklist with 100 $

1. Graphical design - 10
2. Story design - 5
3. Sound Design -15 
4. Gameplay Design - 10
5. Retention mechanics - 30
6. PR - 30

Modern games spend way too much on things with low value, but high cost. However, that does not mean that the things with high value, are cheap - a good story takes years to craft and execute (and one The horde means nothing to kill) 

Leadership plays a huge role. Look at FFXIV they took a massive gamble shutting it down for a year and remaking it. YoshiP is a legend in the industry at this point for his vision and ability.

[MagPrime]

I have a dental appointment today and tomorrow. 

Anyone wanna go for me...?

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I have a dental appointment today and tomorrow. 

Anyone wanna go for me...?

I can borrow you a thread so you can skip yourself the trouble.

[Magus_Tahir]

31 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I can borrow you a thread so you can skip yourself the trouble.

Were not using a door to pull teeth here.

[MagPrime]

52 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I can borrow you a thread so you can skip yourself the trouble.

Not sure how that'll help with getting a crown placed. 

[Magus_Tahir]

Pain is the most valuable teacher, for you remember the lessons always. I learned a lesson today about the forums and a interesting concept of time and edits that I had up until now never considered I will remember it always.

 

[Tali]

2 hours ago, MagPrime said:

I have a dental appointment today and tomorrow. 

Anyone wanna go for me...?

I send you good feels

[MagPrime]

7 minutes ago, Nova-IX said:

I send you good feels

The top one is most appropriate for today lol I woke up a n g r e y for no reason. 

[Tali]

50 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

The top one is most appropriate for today lol I woke up a n g r e y for no reason. 

I know that feeling, sometimes even small things just tilts me to no end.

[Magus_Tahir]

I somehow randomly ended up reading a bunch of stuff on the One Piece wiki, I haven't watched it in years.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, Magus_Tahir said:

I somehow randomly ended up reading a bunch of stuff on the One Piece wiki, I haven't watched it in years.

Law trifalger