Nullifier Fields 2.0

[Jax_Cavalera]

4 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

these threads always devolve into an argument about strong vs weak.

Exactly, the point here is not to focus on strong builds vs weak ones as it is subjective territory.
 

The point here is to simply compare warframe abilities that are not destroyed by nullie fields VS abilities that are below par due to current nullie field mechanics.

This is the goal here. If we get derailed comparing strong builds or weapon X makes nullifiers a breeze  we have missed the point of having balance in a game. (Encourages diversity)

[Steel_Rook]

On 2019-08-16 at 12:43 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

So for

• Buffs that are duration based, the duration goes down at an increased rate TBD
• Buffs that are value / infinite duration based, the remaining value (usually ehp) goes down at an increased rate TBD 

and when they exit the nullifier field, their duration / buff strength remains at the now depleted levels

That sounds fair, yes. Abilities with a duration expire, abilities with a health bar take damage. something we haven't brought up yet is abilities with Charges, ala Revenant's Mesmer Skin. I'd suggest either giving each Mesmer Skin charge some amount of health that a Nullifier bubble can do damage to (affected by Ability Strength), or else a timer that only counts down while inside a Nullifier bubble similar to how Wisp's Mote buffs only count down when out of range of the Mote dispenser flowers. For toggle abilities like Ivara's Prowl, drastically increase their cost, though a the existing duration reduction system might be able to handle that by reducing the time between energy-cost ticks. That way, Ivara can combat Nullifier effects with Recharge Reduction. I'm not aware of any abilities that don't fit any of these cateogires, but for those I'd recommend creating a "resource" for them and sapping that when inside a Nullifier field. Maybe Hyldrin's Balefire Projectors could drain her shields if she has them out and is standing inside a Nullifier Field?

These are technical issues mostly, though, and they should be solvable unless someone can come up with a special-case exception.

 

On 2019-08-16 at 12:43 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

For deployables I am really hoping we could get it to be so their effective range is reduced where it collides with a nullifier field and could expand again when no longer under the effect of any nullifier fields. Then again if we can't get that one across the line because it's too much of a boost for deployables, I'd be ok with what you propose as well since it's a little closer to where the current system is at.

Not all deployables have an effective ranged which means anything, though. Atlas' stone wall comes to mind - that's just a wall. Ivara's ziplines similarly aren't range-based. While it's less elegant, I believe that reducing their duration (if they have any) and their health (if they have any) while under a Nullifier Field is simpler to do. I'm not opposed to reducing their range as well, but you're going to end with a Snowglobe or a Cataclysm which rapidly jumps up and down in scale. The Snowglobe itself serves more as a hard barrier, so it makes more sense for Nullifiers to shatter it than to push it in. The same goes for Gaara's Glass Wall. Maybe I'm just a lazy programmer, but I'll take a simple solution over an intricate one any day 🙂

 

On 2019-08-16 at 1:31 AM, TaylorsContraction said:

here's the problem.  you can slap on a random load out and do just fine,  maybe enjoy some challenge.  you can also equip the most meta build possible and breeze through all game content.  these two states are incongruent in terms of balance.  you cannot balance such a system and DE knows it.  There is a reason why they wanted to do a damage rework and are currently working on the melee system rework.  But their approach is often of a band aid nature rather than a lasting solution.

That there is such a gulf of performance between a "random" build and a "meta" build is itself an issue, though. You're never going to get perfect balance, but you're never going to get a perfect anything - doesn't mean we shouldn't bother to try. A good first step would be normalising performance and reducing the gap between low-tier and top-tier builds. Whether that happens by buffing underperforming builds, barring obviously bad builds or nerfing powerful abilities is a technicality to be figured out on a case-by-case basis - but it's not impossible. In fact, this is the same issue City of Heroes had some 17-18 years ago when their freeform build system created too many gimps and too many tank-mages. As a result, they implemented an Archetype system where people picked what amounted to a class, a primary ability set and a secondary ability set. That way, stats and ability selection were much more closely controlled, ensuring everyone ended up picking mostly useful abilities but nobody could overload on "the best" abilities.

Warframe does the above to an extent with Warframe stats and ability selection, but to no extent whatsoever with weapon mods or weapons themselves. There's plenty of room left for balance.

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-08-20 at 6:39 AM, Steel_Rook said:

something we haven't brought up yet is abilities with Charges, ala Revenant's Mesmer Skin. I'd suggest either giving each Mesmer Skin charge some amount of health that a Nullifier bubble can do damage to (affected by Ability Strength), or else a timer that only counts down while inside a Nullifier bubble similar to how Wisp's Mote buffs only count down when out of range of the Mote dispenser flowers.

That sounds like a pretty solid solution to me and makes sense, the charges are cut off from their source and begin to drop off while inside the nullifier field.

 

On 2019-08-20 at 6:39 AM, Steel_Rook said:

These are technical issues mostly, though, and they should be solvable unless someone can come up with a special-case exception.

Agreed, it's looking like it will be enough to get the job done for sure. I'll get to updating the Opening Post when I get home from work.

On 2019-08-20 at 6:39 AM, Steel_Rook said:

Atlas' stone wall comes to mind - that's just a wall. Ivara's ziplines similarly aren't range-based.

The way I had considered things like that would work is, to enemies outside a nullifier field, they function the same as always, to enemies inside a nullifier field, it would be as though they didn't exist.  Ziplines didn't actually cross my mind xD I don't play ivara too often so am not sure of how much advantage something like a zipline really gives to a player when there are a lot of other options at our disposal, wall cling, void dash, bullet jump, wall running (kangaroo hopping).

Haha yeah I have a preference to whatever is easiest to code in as well (provided it meets the requirements and doesn't add tech debt), so from that standpoint, the initial idea of it simply being a boolean toggle that ignores when true felt easiest, but with the concept of scaling what you are proposing sounds like it would be the easier solution to implement vs having to deal with scaling mesh collisions.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Jax_Cavalera]

Just a quick bump to say I've now fully reworked the OP based on the input provided, please have a read, further refinement is always welcome.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2019‎-‎08‎-‎19 at 3:39 PM, Steel_Rook said:

For toggle abilities like Ivara's Prowl, drastically increase their cost, though a the existing duration reduction system might be able to handle that by reducing the time between energy-cost ticks. That way, Ivara can combat Nullifier effects with Recharge Reduction.

This isn't really necessary.  Why you may ask.  Simple, because solo Ivara in Prowl doesn't alert enemies for the nullie bubbles to be active.  Then there's always alert missions like survival where they still aren't much of a problem if you have the right gear.  Heck, I've done it with Ivara using a bow and Nikana Prime.  

I mention solo specifically because nullies shouldn't be a problem at all for a half decent group working together.  

Edited August 23, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

My issues with nullifiers is much more the nullifier spam, specifically in corridors (the void survival Mot can really become a mess after 20min)

I could have said keep the Eximus Guardian nullifiers and remove the "troop", but even then the Corpus already have Combas, and Scrambus, so one answer would be to just slightly increase the Combas/SCrambus spawn rate.

About "corrupted" a few corrupted Combas/Scrambus could also be more fun than nullfier spam.

[Ghooze]

Am 10.8.2019 um 04:36 schrieb Jax_Cavalera:

Some examples of this being Mag's magnetize

lies, my mag does not rely on magnetize to survive!

[MediumRareLizard]

Am 10.8.2019 um 04:36 schrieb Jax_Cavalera:

Solution
Abilities deplete at increased rates while under the influence of a nullifier field.

I personally have thought many times about Nulli changes. Most of the time cursing them and wishing they would be just deleted. But ifyou think about it a bit deeper they are kinda intelligent. An unite that is able to shield there allies is pretty good. But I really dont like the way they used this idea. 
First they have Far to less counterplay. In many tilestes the drones get lost Out of Bounds in the ceiling or even worse they get hidden inside another Nulli bubble. 

1. They also spawn in far to big Numbers. They should me handled like Nox. as a specialised rare and strong unit.

2. The drones should be better to destroy 

3. Nullifier shouldnt disable you abilities. Instead they should work like arbitration drones. Preventing everything inside the bubble from taking DMG by abilities. They also should stop you      from using abilities inside the bubble.

4.The shield emitting drone should not be static in front of the Nulli but orbit it right in front. Like this you would prevent it from getting lost in the ceiling. Also you would implement some         Skill needed to take them down because you have to actually aim for the drone. 

 

 

[Jax_Cavalera]

3 minutes ago, MediumRareLizard said:

I personally have thought many times about Nulli changes. Most of the time cursing them and wishing they would be just deleted.

Me too, they completely disrupted a lot of really fun times we used to have back when they were introduced on that sad sad day... I remember being there in the middle of that first Interception mission thinking.. pfft it's just another enemy it won't change anything to ruin the fun factor.. and then they started spawning in.

Over time like yourself I too have come to see their value, and have also become a little more aware of how cheap / lazy their usage has started to become, slapping the same thing on multiple enemy types, enemies able to launch nullie fields out as projectiles, the flying ones with a drone always protected by the actual field sitting below it, etc.

Weapons with punch through should be penetrating a nullifier barrier and hitting the nullifier unit inside, but they don't (Zenith with infinite punch through mode is stopped at the outter edge of the field).

 

On 2019-08-23 at 2:03 PM, DatDarkOne said:

I've done it with Ivara using a bow and Nikana Prime.  

I mention solo specifically because nullies shouldn't be a problem at all for a half decent group working together.  

2 hours ago, Ghooze said:

my mag does not rely on magnetize to survive!

As can be seen there are always going to be players who have a work-around in some situations, the key point being that there are a number of warframes who don't end up with a handicapped kit due to nullifiers and so a change that allows abilities to keep working for a short while under the affect of a nullifier field would help level that playing field a bit more and encourage play-style diversity.

 

21 minutes ago, MediumRareLizard said:

Nullifier shouldn't disable your abilities. Instead they should work like arbitration drones.

In the original proposal, this was a little more like how they were set out to be changed but the most consistent feedback was that it would make them too easy so I opted for another suggestion which was to make it so they still eventually remove the abilities but give players a fighting chance to adapt when a nullifier spawns in right next to them in something like a fissure mission.

 

40 minutes ago, MediumRareLizard said:

The drones should be better to destroy 

On 2019-08-23 at 3:50 PM, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

My issues with nullifiers is much more the nullifier spam, specifically in corridors (the void survival Mot can really become a mess after 20min)

If something like punch through actually worked on their fields correctly, a crowded hallway of them would be a little easier to manage and drones would actually be something your projectiles could hit.

I'm not opposed to looking at a different way of handling the field generation. The problem with a drone is that no matter what spot it is located in, we are playing a multi-dimensional game so there will always be scenarios where it is going to be protected by the field it is creating or by another nullifier's field overlapping it, etc.

49 minutes ago, MediumRareLizard said:

4.The shield emitting drone should not be static in front of the Nulli but orbit it right in front. Like this you would prevent it from getting lost in the ceiling. Also you would implement some         Skill needed to take them down because you have to actually aim for the drone. 

Maybe if we had a drone network that formed the shield (one on the top, bottom, left and right) and they each rotated 180 degrees in alternating patterns, so you destroy one of the drones and it breaks the network (other drones short circuit and fizzle out.. shield goes away)?

[MediumRareLizard]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Jax_Cavalera:

Maybe if we had a drone network that formed the shield (one on the top, bottom, left and right) and they each rotated 180 degrees in alternating patterns, so you destroy one of the drones and it breaks the network (other drones short circuit and fizzle out.. shield goes away)?

the problem with this would be the fact that its much more work to implement. Since DE never heard out the community, i started to keep my Ideas for changes and optimisation as simple as possible. With all your ideas [most of them are pretty good] you will never achieve anything if its to complex to do. and with to complex im talking about anything that takes more then 2 workdays. 

Take Universal Vacuum or  Fetch. It took DE like what, 4 years? For work time worth maybe 1h for 2 people.... 

If you really wanna change something keep it as simple as possible to maximize the chances they will think about it.

Edited August 29, 2019 by MediumRareLizard

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-08-29 at 3:13 PM, MediumRareLizard said:

the problem with this would be the fact that its much more work to implement.

That's a good point, I think if we try to adjust how or where the current drone is positioned, it's going to be a lot more work than simply changing it up so punch-through can start working as expected on their fields.

Either they do that or they change it so the field no longer blocks shots from hitting the drone even when the nullifier field is positioned in front of it. Not knowing how they've implemented the drone + nullifier field relationship currently, there's a chance that could be the easiest fix to the problem.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[MediumRareLizard]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Jax_Cavalera:

That's a good point, I think if we try to adjust how or where the current drone is positioned, it's going to be a lot more work than simply changing it up so punch-through can start working as expected on their fields.

Either they do that or they change it so the field no longer blocks shots from hitting the drone even when the nullifier field is positioned in front of it. Not knowing how they've implemented the drone + nullifier field relationship currently, there's a chance that could be the easiest fix to the problem.

But how many weapons do you use with punch through?

And the easest way in my opinion to either shrink the size of Nulli bubbles down in generall or the not lazy way, get it adapting the room hight right. 

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-09-01 at 8:53 PM, MediumRareLizard said:

But how many weapons do you use with punch through?

And the easest way in my opinion to either shrink the size of Nulli bubbles down in generall or the not lazy way, get it adapting the room hight right. 

I rarely put actual punch through on a weapon as there are other mods that benefit more these days and considering punch through doesn't actually punch through those fields it impacts the utility further. Perhaps if it started to work as advertised on the box, it might gain a little more usage.

For sure if their fields would actually scale properly to the room size including the drone that generates them so it could at least be targeted, that would help. In some cases this does already happen but there are a number of spots where I've noticed it doesn't, like those narrow vent corridors.

If both of those were implemented more consistently and combined with the proposed 2.0 rework I think it would be a better system overall that would have low impact on frames that are primarily unaffected by nullifier fields currently while enabling the outliers to become viable against factions using them.

[RoseKittyWitty]

That's the entire point of the nullifier field. Use the provided 3d movement and stay away from them as you get rid of them from a distance. Your efficiency must be like -45% to even begin to get hurt by this.

[Jax_Cavalera]

6 hours ago, TrinimixStudios said:

That's the entire point of the nullifier field.

What is this in regards to?

• The nullifiers making certain frames kits unusable while other's go fully or partially unaffected
• The drones being covered over by the field they are generating making them impossible to actually hit
• Fields going through walls, ceilings, floors knocking out AoE abilities without Line of Sight
• The fields preventing punch through from working
• Getting nullifier over-spawns to the point their fields are all overlapping flooding a room
• Something else.

There are quite a lot of issues that need addressing, some of them might be unintentional outcomes resulting from a specific deliberate change.

[KTCav]

They clearly need a fix, because those kinds of issues dull my enjoyment of the game. This is partly the reason why I stopped playing.

[el_chanis]

No. The game is absurdly easy as it is. Nullifiers, scrambus, comba and isolators are one of the VERY FEW sources of difficulty in the game. Leave them alone.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

2 hours ago, el_chanis said:

No. The game is absurdly easy as it is. Nullifiers, scrambus, comba and isolators are one of the VERY FEW sources of difficulty in the game. Leave them alone.

the issue here is more the nullifiers bending toward not caster frames rather than a general difficulty, and making Corpus arbitrations or long toroid farming being avoided except for bored tryhard attempts.

The game is easy once you get the proper weapons / frames / mods / team. I agree with that, and it kinda bother be how "easy" it can become.

[Zekkii]

The main problem is that frames with extrinsic survivability are worse than frames with intrinsic survivability.

For example Vauban survives by CCing targets so that they can't shoot him, whereas Rhino survives by being able to buff his own effective health.  It's easy to protect yourself from being dispelled, but trying to protect areas or enemies which can be made ability immune is a far more daunting task. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Zekkii

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-09-18 at 3:04 PM, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

the issue here is more the nullifiers bending toward not caster frames rather than a general difficulty, and making Corpus arbitrations or long toroid farming being avoided except for bored tryhard attempts.

The game is easy once you get the proper weapons / frames / mods / team. I agree with that, and it kinda bother be how "easy" it can become.

On 2019-09-18 at 4:18 PM, Zekkii said:

The main problem is that frames with extrinsic survivability are worse than frames with intrinsic survivability.

For example Vauban survives by CCing targets so that they can't shoot him, whereas Rhino survives by being able to buff his own effective health.  It's easy to protect yourself from being dispelled, but trying to protect areas or enemies which can be made ability immune is a far more daunting task. 

Pretty much yeah that's a good way to qualify this feedback, it's about making other classes of warframes viable against nullifier fields instead of having a strong bias towards a select few that limit our playstyle options.

It's great to have frames that specialize in certain game-modes but I think it's less ideal to have certain frames that are only good against X factions.