Lua Lens discussion: What's in for those who are maxed out in all 5 trees?

[Xaero]

12 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

You maxed all 5 trees. That's more than enough reward if you ask me.

That's like asking what's in it for you endgame players when the tutorial gets reworked. Why do you need tutorial items? Same thing here, why do you need to be appeased when you've already attained the end-goal? You've already gotten your rewards, stop being greedy!

But the thing we're talking about is new content, not a rework of something old. New content with (possibly) no rewards for a pretty large player group. At least Echoes could be utilized by everyone. People's concerns are understandable.

[DrivaMain]

If it functions as The Echoes of Umbra and gives more focus to affinity conversion, I have no problems with it. Because who knows when DE introduces more grind more focus nodes in a future update (The New War is a likely possibility for a focus update).

 

[AkyFenrir]

Il y a 1 heure, DrivaMain a dit :

If it functions as The Echoes of Umbra and gives more focus to affinity conversion, I have no problems with it. Because who knows when DE introduces more grind more focus nodes in a future update (The New War is a likely possibility for a focus update).

 

Well Focus is in it's 3.0 Version right now, so yeah a 4.0 is kinda likely... They've always changed everything so far, never added anything, we'll see I guess :)

[LunaSelenis]

The problem is, that there is barely anything Veterans care about. Any kind of challenge either gets completed immediately and is not challenging at all or becomes really tedious and boring (Wolf). There is no amount of Loot, no Items Veterans would like to have that they don't already have. Sure, there is Kuva, Endo and Credits but not everyone may care about Rivens and most have Endo and credits stockpiled and can't really use them.

There is barely anything DE can give us, that would make us happy and even then, it would not be satisfying to everyone.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

DE: Hey everyone we figured out how to give you Umbra functionality for all of your frames, all at once. The trade off is that we are going to make it rare and temporary so you'll need to keep playing regularly to get it. It'll be a rare enough drop that you'll have it as a neat novelty and not get bored of it. We'll probably be able to launch actual umbras of them all, over time but this will fill the gap until then. ☺️

Entitled players: WTF! KAREN, GO GET THE PITCHFORKS. THIS ISN'T WHAT WE WANT!! MAKE IT PERMANENT AND GIVE IT A HIGH DROP CHANCE, OR ELSE! 😠

DE: 😦 O...okay.... We're sorry... We won't give you what you have been asking for... Uh... You know, we've noticed that a lot of people only have a few focus nodes unlocked and some of the difficulty people are having is because their waybounds aren't unlocked. So I guess we'll give you a thing to help cut down on that grind instead. 🙂

Entitled players: KAREN, WE NEED THE TORCHES AS WELL. AND THE ROPES. 

DE: What the hell is wrong with these people? 

 

TL;DR: 

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

DE: Hey everyone we figured out how to give you Umbra functionality for all of your frames, all at once. The trade off is that we are going to make it rare and temporary so you'll need to keep playing regularly to get it. It'll be a rare enough drop that you'll have it as a neat novelty and not get bored of it. We'll probably be able to launch actual umbras of them all, over time but this will fill the gap until then. ☺️

Entitled players: WTF! KAREN, GO GET THE PITCHFORKS. THIS ISN'T WHAT WE WANT!! MAKE IT PERMANENT AND GIVE IT A HIGH DROP CHANCE, OR ELSE! 😠

DE: 😦 O...okay.... We're sorry... We won't give you what you have been asking for... Uh... You know, we've noticed that a lot of people only have a few focus nodes unlocked and some of the difficulty people are having is because their waybounds aren't unlocked. So I guess we'll give you a thing to help cut down on that grind instead. 🙂

Entitled players: KAREN, WE NEED THE TORCHES AS WELL. AND THE ROPES. 

DE: What the hell is wrong with these people? 

 

TL;DR: 

So basically:

 

Entitled players: MAKE IT PERMANENT AND GIVE IT A HIGH DROP CHANCE, OR ELSE! 😠

DE: We won't give you what you have been asking for...

Also DE: What the hell is wrong with these people?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Ksaero said:

So basically:

 

Entitled players: MAKE IT PERMANENT AND GIVE IT A HIGH DROP CHANCE, OR ELSE! 😠

DE: We won't give you what you have been asking for...

Also DE: What the hell is wrong with these people?

You're still not getting it are you? Maybe you and Karen should sit down and talk about it amongst yourselves, for a while?

[Jarriaga]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

TL;DR: 

I am not following you. I made it clear in the OP that my concerns come from me being already maxed out, making a new lens a useless reward. Sure it's good for those who are yet to get there and I am happy for them, but what's in there for me and those in my position? What's the equivalent reward for us? Will that lens offer a secondary bonus effect we can actually use? How is pointing that out playing ourselves and being entitled?

Edited August 27, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Xaero]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You're still not getting it are you? Maybe you and Karen should sit down and talk about it amongst yourselves, for a while?

Maybe you're the one who's not getting it? "Echoes of Umbra" system is not good in its current state. This was pointed out by so-called "entitled players" numerous times, and mostly in a constructive manner. Eventually, DE agreed on this and came up with some ideas on how to improve it. They don't have time to implement them all before the update is shipped, so EoU release is postponed, and instead, Lua lens will be introduced as a new reward for Disruption expansion. While we don't have any details yet, the word "lens" makes some players concerned about its practical use for those who had already maxed out all focus schools.

Basically, that's how this situation looks like. Pretty different from what you've described earlier.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I am not following you. I made it clear in the OP that my concerns come from me being already maxed out, making a new lens a useless reward. Sure it's good for those who are yet to get there and I am happy for them, but what's in there for me and those in my position? 

Currently, not a thing. Should have been very obvious. 

15 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

What's the equivalent reward for us?

☝️👇

15 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

How is pointing that out playing ourselves and being entitled?

There is no equivalent reward because as others already pointed if you've already maxed out the focus trees, you already got the rewards from the focus system. So demanding more rewards is the definition of being entitled. It's what people did about the Echoes suggestion too. 

It's like me bringing cake to work and you saying that you won't be eating it, so I have to bring you and Karen scones instead. 

[Jarriaga]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Currently, not a thing. Should have been very obvious. 

☝️👇

There is no equivalent reward because as others already pointed if you've already maxed out the focus trees, you already got the rewards from the focus system. So demanding more rewards is the definition of being entitled. It's what people did about the Echoes suggestion too. 

It's like me bringing cake to work and you saying that you won't be eating it, so I have to bring you and Karen scones instead. 

The current focus system has not been updated since December 2017 with regards to nodes and abilities. Adding a new item to fulfill a task that has not been touched in nearly 2 years and can be completed passively while farming something else completely ignores that time has passed since then and people have been gathering focus and maxing out their trees since 2017. If the focus system was being expanded with new nodes or schools I'd understand adding an item so players could revisit the system as they'd need to farm more focus, but if this is not the case then what we get is the equivalent of receiving an expired coupon to buy a cake as a reward for playing so long, because this new reward is something we could have used months if not years ago, not now after we are done with the system.

Good for you that you are a newer player and yet to complete the system. Good for you you'll get new tools to ease your growth. If nothing is added so those who already went through that can get a reward, it would only add fuel to the fire that is veterans feeling left out and like DE don't want us playing their game anymore when rewards are so skewed towards benefiting newer players with no middle ground.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Velothed]

2 hours ago, Ksaero said:

MAKE IT PERMANENT AND GIVE IT A HIGH DROP CHANCE, OR ELSE! 😠

The whole Echos idea is flawed imo.

If they'd release it with low drop chance and 24h duration, most people wouldn't be interested.

If they'd make it permanent and give it a higher dropchance, the same people that have all their Focus maxed, would have Echos on all their frames after a week and would be bored again.

[Xaero]

Just now, Vethalon said:

The whole Echos idea is flawed imo.

If they'd release it with low drop chance and 24h duration, most people wouldn't be interested.

If they'd make it permanent and give it a higher dropchance, the same people that have all their Focus maxed, would have Echos on all their frames after a week and would be bored again.

I'll just wait and see what changes they will implement.

[Velothed]

4 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

I'll just wait and see what changes they will implement.

Oh definitely.

If they decide to release it as they first intended I'd still use it for the mainquest as I like to use my operator a lot during those, but otherwise I'd probably not bother, which is fine imo, as long as a good chunk of players enjoy it, it's a good addition, same with Lua Lens.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

6 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

Maybe you're the one who's not getting it? "Echoes of Umbra" system is not good in its current state. This was pointed out by so-called "entitled players" numerous times, and mostly in a constructive manner. Eventually, DE agreed on this and came up with some ideas on how to improve it. They don't have time to implement them all before the update is shipped, so EoU release is postponed, and instead, Lua lens will be introduced as a new reward for Disruption expansion. While we don't have any details yet, the word "lens" makes some players concerned about its practical use for those who had already maxed out all focus schools.

Basically, that's how this situation looks like. Pretty different from what you've described earlier.

Someone tells me that they are hungry. I tell them that they can have half a sandwich because that's what's available right now. They start to rant because they think that unless it's a three course meal I shouldn't offer it. 

Not being in a fully finished or polished state is not the insurmountable issue that people were making it out to be. Hell were playing a game that we all know that it's a game in beta. DE regularly adds stuff and adjustments get made over time. Those of us who want the early access, accept that there are going to be changes that will make it easier later on. Like how some of us farmed the wolf sledge before the change that made them common for everyone. 

The fact that it might get better later, doesn't detract from the fact that it's something that we can do now. 

And the fact that some of us have already gotten all of the focus we currently need, doesn't mean that there are many others who haven't. So just like how some of us don't like conservation, but accept that others enjoy it, you get to accept that this might not be something for you, end of story. 

[(PSN)NitrousInject]

Dammit stop complaining about the Lua lens and your maxed out focus. I really dont care if you are maxed as that has nothing to do with the >90% of players that, like myself, could use a more powerful or slightly different lens. I dont want all you complainers to delay that like you did with Echoes of Umbra. I still enjoy playing this game, even though there are sometimes parts added that I may not get anything out of or could use some polish and tweaks before I find them enjoyable. I like the fact that DE adds things that may be enjoyable to others whether I find them enjoyable or not and, unlike some "veterans" (translation: toxic ancients) I would not wish to prevent others from enjoying.

TL;DR: stop being toxic and whining and let DE produce content for somebody other than just yourself. You aren't the only kid in this sandbox and it's time you learn to share your toys.

 

Edit: not all vets are toxic. Many are wonderful and have helped me and others tremendously in this game. There just happen to be a few in this thread that are particularly toxic.

Edited August 27, 2019 by (PS4)NitrousInject
Clarification

[Xaero]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Someone tells me that they are hungry. I tell them that they can have half a sandwich because that's what's available right now. They start to rant because they think that unless it's a three course meal I shouldn't offer it. 

Right, and how is this comparable to an online game? DE want feedback. DE listen to feedback. DE implement changes according to feedback.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not being in a fully finished or polished state is not the insurmountable issue that people were making it out to be. Hell were playing a game that we all know that it's a game in beta. DE regularly adds stuff and adjustments get made over time. Those of us who want the early access, accept that there are going to be changes that will make it easier later on. Like how some of us farmed the wolf sledge before the change that made them common for everyone.

This is completely irrelevant to the discussed topic. No one here complains about easier focus farm. No one even knows Lua lens' purpose yet.

23 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And the fact that some of us have already gotten all of the focus we currently need, doesn't mean that there are many others who haven't. So just like how some of us don't like conservation, but accept that others enjoy it, you get to accept that this might not be something for you, end of story. 

Is it bad to expect something new from explansion of new content? You seem to oppose this idea quite strongly. Do you think DE shouldn't aim to make both new and old players happy? How does not getting new stuff benefit you?

[Jarriaga]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)NitrousInject said:

Dammit stop complaining about the Lua lens and your maxed out focus. I really dont care if you are maxed as that has nothing to do with the >90% of players that, like myself, could use a more powerful or slightly different lens. I dont want all you complainers to delay that like you did with Echoes of Umbra. I still enjoy playing this game, even though there are sometimes parts added that I may not get anything out of or could use some polish and tweaks before I find them enjoyable. I like the fact that DE adds things that may be enjoyable to others whether I find them enjoyable or not and, unlike some "veterans" (translation: toxic ancients) I would not wish to prevent others from enjoying.

TL;DR: stop being toxic and whining and let DE produce content for somebody other than just yourself. You aren't the only kid in this sandbox and it's time you learn to share your toys.

 

Edit: not all vets are toxic. Many are wonderful and have helped me and others tremendously in this game. There just happen to be a few in this thread that are particularly toxic.

The irony of your post about DE producing content for somebody other than me, is that these tensions with veterans exist precisely because rewards are rarely taking them into consideration, and even when they do, they eventually start giving them away or selling them out (Ephemera).

You make it sound like it's the other way around.

But hey, what do I know? After all, I'm nothing more than a toxic ancient.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Jarriaga

[JellyBean1799]

I really hope that this "Lua Lens" gives you some form of general exp gain too. Like if your frame is at 30 any excess xp the frame gets will distributed to unrank/non-maxed equipment in your loadout.

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, JellyBean1799 said:

I really hope that this "Lua Lens" gives you some form of general exp gain too. Like if your frame is at 30 any excess xp the frame gets will distributed to unrank/non-maxed equipment in your loadout.

That would be an awesome bonus effect.

[(PSN)NitrousInject]

56 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The irony of your post about DE producing content for somebody other than me, is that these tensions with veterans exist precisely because rewards are rarely taking them into consideration, and even when they do, they eventually start giving them away or selling them out (Ephemera).

You make it sound like it's the other way around.

But hey, what do I know? After all, I'm nothing more than a toxic ancient.

While I can understand your concerns over lack of endgame content to keep vets interested (including content creators to be honest). The general tone in this thread has devolved from "that's great and will help others but could you please think of the vets and endgame" to "I dont want these damn Lua Lenses, they cant do anything for me because I'm maxed and I need to be rewarded for all that effort".

One is well presented and the other is toxic and unproductive. Meanwhile, take the Lua Lenses and enjoy selling them for grofit. The entire community can benefit from the good work you do 👍 (I really hope those buggers are tradeable *edit: so those without a use for them can still benefit from them somehow)

Edited August 27, 2019 by (PS4)NitrousInject
Clarification

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

The current focus system has not been updated since December 2017 with regards to nodes and abilities. Adding a new item to fulfill a task that has not been touched in nearly 2 years and can be completed passively while farming something else completely ignores that time has passed since then and people have been gathering focus and maxing out their trees since 2017. If the focus system was being expanded with new nodes or schools I'd understand adding an item so players could revisit the system as they'd need to farm more focus, but if this is not the case then what we get is the equivalent of receiving an expired coupon to buy a cake as a reward for playing so long, because this new reward is something we could have used months if not years ago, not now after we are done with the system.

And I'm telling you in no uncertain terms that there are many players who joined before that and have not filled out their trees. Just as there were many that hadn't built an amp when Umbra dropped. Just like there are many who have never levelled up their factions to max. 

If you have done any of those, you are in the top echelons of the game. Just because we are there doesn't mean that the majority of the players, and all future potential players are where we are. Lifting them up, doesn't bring us down. 

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Good for you that you are a newer player and yet to complete the system. Good for you you'll get new tools to ease your growth. If nothing is added so those who already went through that can get a reward, it would only add fuel to the fire that is veterans feeling left out and like DE don't want us playing their game anymore when rewards are so skewed towards benefiting newer players with no middle ground.

Ho? I don't have focus finished? You mean that by unlocking all waybounds, and maxing out the majority of the regular nodes (except for the ones that don't interest me and would be a pointless drain on the operator's energy) isn't what finishing the trees means? 

Or did you assume that a player who dgaf if newbs have an easier time, must also be a player who hasn't done it all? 

And again the whole "they're getting something, but I don't want it, so why won't they give me something even better" really isn't a great look. You may want to reconsider. 

1 hour ago, Ksaero said:

Right, and how is this comparable to an online game? DE want feedback. DE listen to feedback. DE implement changes according to feedback.

Followed by:

1 hour ago, Ksaero said:

No one even knows Lua lens' purpose yet.

So... Whining about something that we don't know what it does, is what you call "feedback", is it? That word doesn't mean what you think it means. 

Care to try again? 

[Riger82]

Guh. I have all my focus abilities. I'd rather be able to trade focus for some other items or currency.

[Jarriaga]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And I'm telling you in no uncertain terms that there are many players who joined before that and have not filled out their trees. Just as there were many that hadn't built an amp when Umbra dropped. Just like there are many who have never levelled up their factions to max. 

If you have done any of those, you are in the top echelons of the game. Just because we are there doesn't mean that the majority of the players, and all future potential players are where we are. Lifting them up, doesn't bring us down. 

Ho? I don't have focus finished? You mean that by unlocking all waybounds, and maxing out the majority of the regular nodes (except for the ones that don't interest me and would be a pointless drain on the operator's energy) isn't what finishing the trees means? 

Or did you assume that a player who dgaf if newbs have an easier time, must also be a player who hasn't done it all? 

And again the whole "they're getting something, but I don't want it, so why won't they give me something even better" really isn't a great look. You may want to reconsider. 

Followed by:

So... Whining about something that we don't know what it does, is what you call "feedback", is it? That word doesn't mean what you think it means. 

Care to try again? 

We already have Eidolon lenses. We can max-out the daily focus standing cap in just 16 rounds of ESO or Adaro with a sleep Equinox build. An Eidolon Lens is 2.25% affinity conversion. Anyone who hasn't maxed out is not due to lack of tools. A new Lua Lens would not change that unless it happened to convert affinity into focus at such a rate as to undercut ESO to make it an alternative. Otherwise, those same people who haven't maxed out will still be unable to max out because they are not participating in the activities that would net them the focus points needed to max out. Those players who are yet to be lifted up, will not be lifted up unless they start doing what we did to gather focus, which takes us back to the Edidolon lens being already powerful enough to make you hit the cap in 1 hour.

And still, why must they be the only ones getting a reward in a new game mode? Can't there be something else for those other players who are already past that so everyone is happy? Not even a bone for us? It's not "they're getting something, but I don't want it, so why won't they give me something even better" but rather "They are giving something that I can't even use even if I wanted to. Hopefully there's something else or it does something more than just that", as stated in my original opening post. Why are you choosing to ignore that and change the meaning of my concerns? Why the need to interject malice and greed to my concerns? It's frustrating. More so when rewards are often so skewed towards one side. Good for you if you don't care about newer players getting something else just for themselves yet again. I do, because it feels like it's a 9:1 ratio of how things are added for them vs. us, and the longer I stay, the more it frustrates me because it's so one-sided like if we have an expiration date or DE don't want us here anymore, so they shun us out. Newer players can eventually become veterans. Veterans can not become new players even if they delete their account because they retain the experience and know what to do and what to farm and how to be efficient.

And yes, we don't even know what the item does yet. I am speculating based on the description of the item. Feedback (Suggestions to improve or change something) has been provided in the form of expressing concerns over a new reward being added to ease completing a 2 year old task that already has multiple tools able to efficiently complete it (Eidolon lenses and shards) while nothing else is being added for those who already completed said task, and by providing examples of things this new lens could also do as a secondary effect to make it a viable reward for everyone regardless of completion level:

1) Unlock new ability nodes in existing schools.

2) Unlock a new school.

3) Use the focus points from the Lua lens to unbound other standard nodes beyond pre-set way-bounds.

4) Use focus from the Lua lens to trigger the Echoes of Umbra, permanently.

5) Use excess affinity from a Lua lens to feed affinity to weapons and frames in your arsenal.

Do those suggestions not count as feedback just because the item is yet to be released? More information is to come, yes. We don't even know if it is actually a focus lens or if it's something else and the name is a red herring. But until we have the item, and in order to tamper expectations and avoid setting ourselves for disappointment, it's best to imagine the worst possible scenario based on its name: Another focus lens. If it happens to do anything else beyond being just another focus lens then I will be happy and relieved to know DE did take into account those like me and I'll get something to look forward to. Otherwise, and again, it would amount to receiving a basic focus lens from a Cetus bounty in function long after that entire tree was maxed out. It feels like you're getting no reward because you can't use it even if you want to, exactly like receiving an expired coupon.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

31 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

We already have Eidolon lenses. We can max-out the daily focus standing cap in just 16 rounds of ESO or Adaro with a sleep Equinox build. An Eidolon Lens is 2.25% affinity conversion. Anyone who hasn't maxed out is not due to lack of tools.

Yes we do. And it was entirely possible to max it out before they added ESO. It didn't stop them from implementing ESO, did it? Should it have? Should they revert that? 

 

31 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

And yes, we don't even know what the item does yet. I am speculating based on the description of the item. Feedback (Suggestions to improve or change something) has been provided in the form of expressing concerns over a new reward being added to ease completing a 2 year old task that already has multiple tools able to efficiently complete it (Eidolon lenses and shards) while nothing else is being added for those who already completed said task, and by providing examples of things this new lens could also do as a secondary effect to make it a viable reward for everyone regardless of completion level:

Speculation, and then running around claiming that the sky is falling and what that means ≠ feedback. 

The extent of your "feedback" is "this may or may not be of use for me, I really don't know". Beyond that, the entitled part is "I don't want this, despite not knowing what it is, I want something else, and I want it right now despite not really knowing what it would be or having any consensus". 

And seriously

32 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

And still, why must they be the only ones getting a reward in a new game mode?