Covert Lethality feedback

[Deifrost]

I feel like Covert Lethality was changed (painfully) for the better and headed in the right direction, but it's not strong enough. Imo it needs some tweaks to make it useful.

It should have at least 25 initial combo counter to support hit and run stealth gameplay. 

 Currently it only gives 16 initial combo counter. That's not enough to get you to even x2 combo multiplier. Which makes it useless for stealth game play where you're only doing finishers or quick hit and runs. It's also equally useless if you're spamming melee attacks, since it takes just a few seconds to build up to max combo multiplier. I feel like it has no place in builds, BUT would be easy to make it support stealth game play with a increase in initial combo counter. 

Also, the 100% finisher damage is too weak. Daggers currently have the lowest finisher damage of all weapons; 

Front finishers;

• 3.2x for Daggers.
• 6.0x for Dual Daggers, Polearms, Sparring, and Staves.
• 6.2x for Warfans.
• 8.0x for all other weapon types.
• 16.0x for Scythes.
• 24.0x for Hammers and Rapiers.

Back Finishers;

 

• 2.0x for Heavy Blades.
• 4.0x for Gunblades.
• 6.0x for Dual Daggers, Polearms, Sparring, and Staves.
• 6.2x for Daggers and Warfans.
• 8.0x for all other weapon types.
• 12.0x for Hammers.
• 16.0x for Machete and Nikanas.

 

Mods are needed to make finishers from daggers more in line with other weapons. Covert leathality would need at least 250% to bring it up to an 8.0x for front finishers and 15.5x for back finisher to bring it on par with other weapons at base.  IMO It should be around 300% since you have to use a mod slot. 

that's it, thanks!

  

[AgasKahn]

Personally, I don't like it at all that I don't possess the characteristic lethal damage, as before
the only thing I would like is for the dagger to make a lethal shot again
After that I might think that things haunt and change, but the real difference between a dagger and the rest of the weapons, was that if you knew their combos it always took you the same amount of effective blows to kill an enemy regardless of the level
and I was love that

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I don’t know how taking the only good thing of daggers away from daggers is a good thing.

Not to mention that the removal of covert lethalitys lethality means there’s now only Garuda and burning trash heap Revenant left for one shotting. And giving any benefits to Revenant is unacceptable.

[AgasKahn]

hace 1 hora, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:

I don’t know how taking the only good thing of daggers away from daggers is a good thing.

the sad thing is that nobody knows ...

[Fearanis]

I would like the old covert lethality back. It was really the only nice thing of using a dagger. Not even fatal teleport with some combo counter works as nice as it was before it's ridiculus nerf.

[Miyabi-sama]

17 часов назад, Deifrost сказал:

I feel like Covert Lethality was changed (painfully) for the better and headed in the right direction, but it's not strong enough. Imo it needs some tweaks to make it useful.

It should have at least 25 initial combo counter to support hit and run stealth gameplay. 

 Currently it only gives 16 initial combo counter. That's not enough to get you to even x2 combo multiplier. Which makes it useless for stealth game play where you're only doing finishers or quick hit and runs. It's also equally useless if you're spamming melee attacks, since it takes just a few seconds to build up to max combo multiplier. I feel like it has no place in builds, BUT would be easy to make it support stealth game play with a increase in initial combo counter. 

Also, the 100% finisher damage is too weak. Daggers currently have the lowest finisher damage of all weapons; 

Front finishers;

• 3.2x for Daggers.
• 6.0x for Dual Daggers, Polearms, Sparring, and Staves.
• 6.2x for Warfans.
• 8.0x for all other weapon types.
• 16.0x for Scythes.
• 24.0x for Hammers and Rapiers.

Back Finishers;

 

• 2.0x for Heavy Blades.
• 4.0x for Gunblades.
• 6.0x for Dual Daggers, Polearms, Sparring, and Staves.
• 6.2x for Daggers and Warfans.
• 8.0x for all other weapon types.
• 12.0x for Hammers.
• 16.0x for Machete and Nikanas.

 

Mods are needed to make finishers from daggers more in line with other weapons. Covert leathality would need at least 250% to bring it up to an 8.0x for front finishers and 15.5x for back finisher to bring it on par with other weapons at base.  IMO It should be around 300% since you have to use a mod slot. 

that's it, thanks!

  

Finally someone who understands the thing.

I guess damage disparity is based on elusive "realism". I mean if you stalk and whack a person with a sledge there's not enough flex tape on a planet to bring his skull back together. More lethal than a mere stab.

But yeah, without the actual oneshot daggers lose their trick and go back down to the bottom tier in terms of stats.

Guess DE wanted to get rid of "builds" consisting of attack speed mods + CL. I personally crafted a fastest zaw dagger for that gimmick, tried it for S#&$s and giggles a couple times and never touched it again. Ever.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Miyabi-sama

[ciTiger]

49 minutes ago, Elusive.Kite said:

I would like the old covert lethality back. It was really the only nice thing of using a dagger. Not even fatal teleport with some combo counter works as nice as it was before it's ridiculus nerf.

They said CL was staying after all. And it did it stay, the jokes is on us, AGAIN...

Edited November 8, 2019 by ciTiger

[Fearanis]

On 2019-11-08 at 5:37 PM, ciTiger said:

They said CL was staying after all. And it did it stay, the jokes is on us, AGAIN...

 Indeed. If it stays like this they can remove it. It is not worthy to use. I'm glad some posts up from here there is someone like Deifrost that explains in numbers why right now CL is not usable. 

 

Pretty Please DE give us back old Covert Lethality, make my old Ash proud again. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Elusive.Kite
spelling errors!

[ciTiger]

18 hours ago, Elusive.Kite said:

 Indeed. If it stays like this they can remove it. It is not worthy to use. I'm glad some posts up from here there is someone like Deifrost that explains in numbers why right now CL is not usable. 

 

Pretty Please DE give us back old Covert Lethality, make my old Ash proud again. 

Give us a reason to use daggers at the very least.

[Skaleek]

13 cost for the mod that covert lethality is right now is pretty ridiculous.

[auxy]

Toasting in epic bread to show my support. I agree with pretty much everything said in this thread, ALTHOUGH...

11 hours ago, ciTiger said:

Give us a reason to use daggers at the very least.

I do feel like it's worth noting something some people in this thread may not have realized, and this is slightly off-topic, but...

... have you tried using a dagger since the update? Pull out the ol' Rakta Dark Dagger or your Balla Zaw and build it like you would normally, without CL.

... it's pretty damn strong! They buffed dagger range and damage to hilarious proportions, and with the extremely high attack speed on the stances, they're super-high DPS now.

So I think daggers are really in a good place, overall. But I agree that Covert Lethality as a mod has lost its purpose, and I agree with the OP that it doesn't have to go back 100% to the way it was to become good again. With that said, I don't think it would be worth 13 drain even with OP's proposed changes.

[AgasKahn]

hace 8 minutos, auxy dijo:

I do feel like it's worth noting something some people in this thread may not have realized, and this is slightly off-topic, but...

... have you tried using a dagger since the update? Pull out the ol' Rakta Dark Dagger or your Balla Zaw and build it like you would normally, without CL.

... it's pretty damn strong! They buffed dagger range and damage to hilarious proportions, and with the extremely high attack speed on the stances, they're super-high DPS now.

So I think daggers are really in a good place, overall. But I agree that Covert Lethality as a mod has lost its purpose, and I agree with the OP that it doesn't have to go back 100% to the way it was to become good again. With that said, I don't think it would be worth 13 drain even with OP's proposed changes.

They are not bad..
but...
I can no longer perform stealth finishers, in a way that assures me of his death

and compared to other categories of weapons there are better things...

edit:

I think the point is to give daggers the possibility of having that niche with Covert Lethality

Edited November 11, 2019 by AgasKahn

[Xzorn]

Never really used CL Daggers but the old design was stupid.

You just needed CL on a dagger and could leave all other slots empty. Anything that scales as Damage = EnemyMaxHealth is just poor design. A % of max health sure but not 100%. The mod could do +1000 base Damage and wouldn't be nearly as offensive to basic game design as it was.

[AgasKahn]

hace 4 minutos, Xzorn dijo:

Never really used CL Daggers but the old design was stupid.

You just needed CL on a dagger and could leave all other slots empty. Anything that scales as Damage = EnemyMaxHealth is just poor design. A % of max health sure but not 100%. The mod could do +1000 base Damage and wouldn't be nearly as offensive to basic game design as it was.

For someone who never tried a system, I think to say that he was stupid or not is exaggerated

If you make a stealthy blow and don't kill it with one blow, it loses some sense

it was a mechanic that shone in a niche, stealth, and finishers

if you could not give a finisher it was the same as being unarmed, for that the rest of mods

[Xzorn]

56 minutes ago, AgasKahn said:

For someone who never tried a system, I think to say that he was stupid or not is exaggerated

If you make a stealthy blow and don't kill it with one blow, it loses some sense

it was a mechanic that shone in a niche, stealth, and finishers

if you could not give a finisher it was the same as being unarmed, for that the rest of mods

 

I know plenty of the system I didn't use it on purpose because there's no process behind it. No knowledge, no modding outside attack speed, nothing.

You could in fact always get a finisher attack on an eligible enemy thanks to Stinging Thorn's auto-finisher on 5th attack of the forward combo. You're acting like it's some special condition when you did not need blind and you did not need sleep. Any frame could do it. CL was also not a mechanic it was a mod that bypassed mechanics.

I was not exaggerating when I said the mod could have just given +1000 base damage and been less offensive to basic game design. That would one-shot anything in typical content and quite a deal beyond but it won't scale to infinity and you'll actually want more mods on the weapon which is the reason CL was such poor design.

Now what I don't know is the new CL but I'm hardly surprised if it's crap.

[AgasKahn]

hace 33 minutos, Xzorn dijo:

You could in fact always get a finisher attack on an eligible enemy thanks to Stinging Thorn's auto-finisher on 5th attack of the forward combo. You're acting like it's some special condition when you did not need blind and you did not need sleep. Any frame could do it. CL was also not a mechanic it was a mod that bypassed mechanics.

well here you gave a separate topic
that problem lies in that combo, not covert lethality, which as the name itself indicates is to give lethality, covert
That may be, but not something like the mod, giving for my favor, that there are many immune enemies to finishers
On the other hand, I consider that the sponges of bullets are a matter too unreal, and break with the immersion, and I like it personally, if I grab a dagger and nail it in the head, that it does not rise as if it only had hangover

and on the other hand, it is true that I use a zaw to amplify as much as I can covert lethality, and I can assure you that it is not so easy to put that 5 hit, due to how frantic it is warframe

edit:

what I mean, is that in a game where the enemy scales infinitely, you need mechanics that scale that way

and that it is only the player's decision to use them or not, I love her, and she will continue in my dreams, until DE, allows us to be together again

oh covert lethality

Edited November 12, 2019 by AgasKahn
clarifications and poetry

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, AgasKahn said:

what I mean, is that in a game where the enemy scales infinitely, you need mechanics that scale that way

 

That's the bad part though. Players can't be given damage sources that scale infinitely otherwise there's no room for growth. That's the core problem with old CL. Not that it can one-shot lvl 100's or 300's or 1,000's. It's that it never stops. Octavia's Mallet is flawed in the same manner least to end of scaling at lvl 9,999. There has to be some sort of limit to allow new mods, items and buffs to be incorporated into the player's arsenal so they can improve themselves over time.

In case of old CL there wasn't even a reason to put a full mod loadout. That's what I mean by growth. It was already halted outside attack speed mods.

 

[AgasKahn]

hace 1 hora, Xzorn dijo:

That's the bad part though. Players can't be given damage sources that scale infinitely otherwise there's no room for growth. That's the core problem with old CL. Not that it can one-shot lvl 100's or 300's or 1,000's. It's that it never stops. Octavia's Mallet is flawed in the same manner least to end of scaling at lvl 9,999. There has to be some sort of limit to allow new mods, items and buffs to be incorporated into the player's arsenal so they can improve themselves over time.

In case of old CL there wasn't even a reason to put a full mod loadout. That's what I mean by growth. It was already halted outside attack speed mods.

I can understand a little what you mean
But from a more human point of view, what you propose will only result in frustration, a problem of infinite scale, is that psychologically we are not suitable for these ideas.
because it generates in the player a constant need for what he could translate as a hunger for power, an insatiable hunger
and you can't enjoy
the only way to avoid this is that different mechanics coexist that allow, to cover the same objective in different ways
then you choose the new way, for pleasure, not for the unreal need to be stronger
I know that what I say may sound off topic, but I don't want to delve into how it works psychologically as far as we know the human mind
but in short, we need all the objectives to be achievable, in a short term, because it is a game, if it does not become a job, and it can generate stress, and grace would be distracting from stress
and the only way is to have something that is "the end"
"You have already reached a form that can eliminate any enemy of the game,"
that will make you feel fulfilled, you did it, and followed by that you can give it other ways, to feel that feeling again, and not the current feeling that is a relief of not having to talk more about a tedious mission, or a frightening rng, that you just ask for the item to come out, so you don't have to do the mission anymore

and that is why, the skills you mention and issues in question are not very suitable for the structure of the game
the only form of an endgame is using mechanics already raised, to give our brain a puzzle to put together
now we have to discuss what those pieces are going to be
and that's why I reaffirm the importance of covert lethality, a piece that allows me to access at the end of the game, I can use it with a guard, with a banshee, with an ash, all have their advantages and disadvantages
but removing it is losing a lot of synergies and possibilities

I do not want to say that I am an expert on the subject, but I see several people who think like you, and the best way to change is to propose something better, because crossing it out of bad, and deleting it is a problem since, it is the only thing we have , if you have an ugly, horrible car, don't turn it on fire, you save money for when you sell it to have a better one
and this new version of covert lethality, is totally removed from the soul of the mod, if it were a mod with another name, it would be perfect.
but the void that leaves covert lethality is very large