Toxic lich hunter bullies are spreading "badwill", ban them.

[Sintag]

8 minutes ago, MPonder said:

It is 44 times stab at least, but you are going to stab him more than one time per appearance, it is just a few seconds between them, all you have to do is get rid of 1 HP bar. You making it sound so bad.

It is... For a Level 1 Lich.  At Level 5, Liches are pretty much walking tanks, and depending on Resistances/Immunes, you could be looking at the closest thing to a raid boss we're ever going to get in a post-Trials world.  And unless you have a 4XCP party, that's before we add in the armor, reducing all incoming damage to somewhere between spitballs and ping-pong balls being thrown at said tank.

 

1 minute ago, MPonder said:

@sintag

You have to gamble even with the 3 murmur already discovered. Do this, Try stabbing and see if it goes faster. How long it takes for you to get a lich without stabbing? Because if you don't stab, you don't get more missions.

Right.  So, here's the math for that.  Because you now know your Mods, but not where they go, and assuming, again, you fail your stabs in sequential order:

Three times two, plus two times two, plus one.
Six, plus four, plus 1.  11 combinations and this is the worst-case scenario.

[MPonder]

Think when you already know the 3 murmurs, it is 7 stabs in 4 attempts.
 

[Sintag]

6 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Think when you already know the 3 murmurs, it is 7 stabs in 4 attempts.
 

Ah, right.  Forgot you're no longer flying completely and utterly blind.  Trying to keep all this is a bit nuts.

You can fail Requiem 1 twice across three mods.  Two attempts.
You can then fail Requiem 2 once.
 

So it's three failed attempts if you know the entire sequence, as opposed to forty-four if you don't.  You see why I say 'don't blindly stab your Lich', though?  If you're patient, you eliminate forty-one attempts.  Use your stabs to eliminate the guesswork from Lich hunting, instead of throwing your life away to sate the guy who charged into pubs.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Sintag

[MPonder]

I'm kind doing eidolon right now, so the "think"

[Graavarg]

4 hours ago, Raqiya said:

But not killing your lich does exactly that. You're forcing others to play by your own special rules. 

No, not at all. There are no "must stab lich"-rules for PUG/random missions. That is a completely made-up rule by lich farmers, in order so they themselves can advance faster. But there is absolutely nothing forcing lich farmers to go into public missions, and if they do they should show some respect and accept that random players in that mission might have other goals than they have.

It really is quite simple. How on earth can you come to the conclusion that you an join a mission with random players and have the right to force them to play a certain way? That is simply nuts.

Quote

If somone already knew the code or is really close, by not stabbing your lich you're forcing them to not complete the whole objective of the update. getting the requiem/murmurs is only a means of reaching the objective which killing the Lich much like how farming materials is only a means of getting the weapon. 

The original idea of the liches was meant to your personal Nemesis but DE through all those ideas out the window with the way they designed the system. 

If you want to avoid leveling your lich I think it's perfectly valid for you to go solo. Levels are "low" and should be manageable but you shouldn't say Tier 5 "high" level missions should be played solo just because you want to stab lich which is the whole incentive of the update and full of like minded individuals. 

It is always valid to go solo. This isn't about that. This is about joining a mission with random players and demanding that they play the way YOU want. Even if there is no need to do so in the actual mission. And then potentially harassing, bullying and threatening the random players to get them to do what you want.

It's wrong, it's toxic, and players behaving that way should be banned.

Being irritated over losing time is one thing. Being irritated that you were dumb enough to go into an public mission with your very specific personal need and it didn't work out like you hoped is another. But trying to bully other players to do things your way is a completely different ballgame, and all wrong.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Graavarg

[MPonder]

@Sintag

You can "stab" him more than once on the same attemp, if you know the first two mods, it is already 3 stabs per attempt, so it is not 44 attemps, it is just stabs (think it is 37 stabs actually), LoL.

Worst case is 44 stabs (or 37, w/e) in 19 attempts without murmurs, but you have murmurs, it is usually 8 attempts from experience by brute forcing him, ANDDDDDDDDDD it come before the third murmur.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MPonder

[Sintag]

1 minute ago, MPonder said:

@Sintag

You can "stab" him more than once on the same attemp, so it is not 44 attemps, it is just stabs (think it is 37 stabs actually), LoL.

Worst case is 44 stabs (or 37, w/e) in 19 attempts.

Brute-forcing a Lich is still horrifically inefficient and gets the player in question nothing to show for it save a token amount of Murmurs, and a Lich that's much stronger then it could've been if they got the code together to begin with.  That's my point.  The entire deal with my mathematics was to prove that point.  I am done talking here.

[MPonder]

Use corrosive on Him, they really seems to have ferrite armor.

[Remedyheart]

2 hours ago, Sintag said:

So, to the 'STAB YOUR LICH BLIND' crowd, let me ask, did you crunch the numbers behind your rationale?  Because I just did, and the final answer I got was 44.  At absolute worst, you will stab your Lich 44 times if you do it blind.  8 times 3 plus 7 times 2 plus 6.  24, plus 14, plus 6.  8 mods and 3 slots, then 7 mods over 2 slots, then 6 mods over a single.  So, I'm gonna say something right now.

If you go into a pub, and expect the guy with no Murmurs, who was there to farm them even, to get the first Requiem and eliminate one of these numbers, to instead take a one-in-8 gamble that, if failed, will make the Lich even stronger, and berate them for being understandably not up for it, especially if they fill out a Murmur and stand to gain literally nothing from the gamble?  You're the problem here.   There are two cases for not doing a stab on your Lich.  The first is if you've got no Requiems figured out, and the second is if your Murmur ring is full and you'll gain an idea of what Requiem is required, bypassing some of the random chance.

tl;dr:  You joined a pub, you're not the boss.  If you want your Lich dead, make a squad of like-minded people in Recruiting, since there's always gonna be people looking to kill their Lich off and have it decoded.  Otherwise, put up or shut up, you're not my boss.

Jesus christ you're listening.

There are like seven positives to your selfish 3 and 5 negatives that affect 3 out of 4 players here.

Ding ding ding ding! Your perservation hurts more than it helps. Your conversion theory or long way to hunt a lich takes way too long.

Just do us a favor give it both methods a try and see which one you like afterwards because I'n sure majority census will be the ladder here.

[Remedyheart]

16 minutes ago, Sintag said:

Brute-forcing a Lich is still horrifically inefficient and gets the player in question nothing to show for it save a token amount of Murmurs, and a Lich that's much stronger then it could've been if they got the code together to begin with.  That's my point.  The entire deal with my mathematics was to prove that point.  I am done talking here.

And yet when you guess it right? That's a whole requim mod. The progress gets saved to your second requim mod and you saved a ton of time.

A TON OF TIME. For guessing right and being kind.

You should really read up on the positives and negatives. Positives got ya buried. No offense.

Speaking of which. No one wants to die by the hands of your lich as much as you don't want to suicide. Save a couple of lives and maybe don't make everyone mad when they are dying to your lich.

[MPonder]

11 minutes ago, Sintag said:

Brute-forcing a Lich is still horrifically inefficient and gets the player in question nothing to show for it save a token amount of Murmurs, and a Lich that's much stronger then it could've been if they got the code together to begin with.  That's my point.  The entire deal with my mathematics was to prove that point.  I am done talking here.

Brute-forcing will generate more attempts, yeah, Ofc. First murmur and first attemp usually come almost at the same time, the attemp usually comes first. But the second and third murmur takes long, the third one is the worst, and while you waited like 2 hours of murmur farm to finally attempt on your lich, I already did like 3 to 4 attemps (just a example), and a good chance that I already found the mod without the murmurs.

You guys can not stab, but it will be so innefficient, remembering that there will be variant for Corpus and Infested, recommend to try doing some lichs by always stabbing to see if it is more efficient. The Lichs are weak, just use corrosive on them, Rubico or if you play things like Inaros, just melee him.

 

[Remedyheart]

49 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

No, not at all. There are no "must stab lich"-rules for PUG/random missions. That is a completely made-up rule by lich farmers, in order so they themselves can advance faster. But there is absolutely nothing forcing lich farmers to go into public missions, and if they do they should show some respect and accept that random players in that mission might have other goals than they have.

It really is quite simple. How on earth can you come to the conclusion that you an join a mission with random players and have the right to force them to play a certain way? That is simply nuts.

It is always valid to go solo. This isn't about that. This is about joining a mission with random players and demanding that they play the way YOU want. Even if there is no need to do so in the actual mission. And then potentially harassing, bullying and threatening the random players to get them to do what you want.

It's wrong, it's toxic, and players behaving that way should be banned.

Being irritated over losing time is one thing. Being irritated that you were dumb enough to go into an public mission with your very specific personal need and it didn't work out like you hoped is another. But trying to bully other players to do things your way is a completely different ballgame, and all wrong.

Bullying? You're calling for BANS HERE.

No one that disagrees with you has mentioned a punishment for you yet.

 

[MPonder]

I did my lichs solos, and will always do, this really don't affect me, like my fastest Lich is around 20 min mission time, I did the lich in the night on Cassini - Saturn, then farmed the missions in the morning, on the first time he appeared, all the mods were correct and in the right place.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MPonder

[Sintag]

1 minute ago, Remedyheart said:

Jesus christ you're listening.

There are like seven positives to your selfish 3 and 5 negatives that affect 3 out of 4 players here.

Ding ding ding ding! Your perservation hurts more than it helps. Your conversion theory or long way to hunt a lich takes way too long.

Just do us a favor give it both methods a try and see which one you like afterwards because I'n sure majority census will be the ladder here.

As I've said, as I'll keep saying.  Brute-forcing a Lich's kill phrase isn't efficient.  Never will be save the final one, and even then that is five failures at the absolute worst.  But to repeat my final point.  You are not my boss.  You do not get to decide how I play a game.  Does it suck your Lich didn't show for you when you had the code?  Yes.  Believe me, I have been there myself.  But you went into a pub, rolled the dice, and got angry when they didn't come up in your favor.

[Yoruno]

9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

-snip-

No, the question is exactly the opposite: why should any player attack and clear his/her lich in mission?

A lich farmer focused only on loot might feel that the best way is "efficiency", but random PUG squads are open to ALL players. Everyone should just accept this, instead of trying to force random, unknown players to play a certain way.

Did you know that, if you are not in a hurry and you want to enjoy the lich mechanic, keeping your lich at level 1 and angry until you have identified all three requiems makes the mission much easier and more enjoyable? So why should this leisurely approach (which is clearly exactly within how DE has described "the lich experience") be more wrong than super-effective level 5 lich farming?

The argument that "leisure players" shouldn't join random squads is both absurd and a wrong argument. It is absurd because that (playing in random missions) is a core Warframe thing. It is a wrong argument because it applies more to those wanting to play in a specific way, if you want this you should form a specific  squad, not go into a random squad and harass other players to your bidding. Or maybe you do not agree?

I don't agree. Being in pub means you are not playing by yourself first and foremost, with it comes the basic level of respect towards other players you're currently playing with and that usually means some form of compromise is expected. The exact kind of compromise you are expecting from your 3 other teammates when you refuse to clear your lich, the compromise being them not getting the chance to deal with their lich.

But i can see that you have no intention to cooperate no matter what so that's a valid answer. Our conversation ends here.

 

[Remedyheart]

1 hour ago, Sintag said:

As I've said, as I'll keep saying.  Brute-forcing a Lich's kill phrase isn't efficient.  Never will be save the final one, and even then that is five failures at the absolute worst.  But to repeat my final point.  You are not my boss.  You do not get to decide how I play a game.  Does it suck your Lich didn't show for you when you had the code?  Yes.  Believe me, I have been there myself.  But you went into a pub, rolled the dice, and got angry when they didn't come up in your favor.

Then please share you insane time saving secret with the audience.

I honestly want to see some proof that my effort on 20 liches was squandered.

Here I am trying ti make guides on lich hunting and I still run into this probpem. In forums and in the game.

I don't how much more I can help at this point of time if you don't bother reading or trying it yourself.

[Yoruno]

6 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

To our Tenno community. No one should be banned for DE's incompetence and complete lack of redress to this situation. To t hose  Tenno that feel that taking a cheap death to the lich is a bad thing, we agree, but Mechanically as bad as it is, it is the best course of action to get your lich seen to. DE does need to fix this mechanic as with many others. Holding a team hostage because of your inaction is not fair either, play solo. What you will be missing out on has been addressed by Remedy, and remember, if the Lich seems like he is too tough for YOU alone, you DO have the back up of your fellow Tenno to take them out.

All of that said, there is NO need to go after each others throats over this. Your focus should be towards DE and getting them to get their ass in gear and FIX this hot mess. Calling for bans over understandably frustrated behavior by both divides involved is not going to get this fixed. Scream at DE like rabid dogs, not each other. Stand United, we ALL LIFT TOGETHER.

I mean, have you read the title? It wasn't "DE needs to fix this" but "ban these people". With his recent reply to me im more inclined to believe OP doesn't care if it's DE or mechanic issue, he cares that he's not getting to play in his pace, in public. But yeah i admit its better to not get swept up with the tone OP set.

 

3 hours ago, Sintag said:

So, to the 'STAB YOUR LICH BLIND' crowd, let me ask, did you crunch the numbers behind your rationale?  Because I just did, and the final answer I got was 44.  At absolute worst, you will stab your Lich 44 times if you do it blind.  8 times 3 plus 7 times 2 plus 6.  24, plus 14, plus 6.  8 mods and 3 slots, then 7 mods over 2 slots, then 6 mods over a single.  So, I'm gonna say something right now.

If you go into a pub, and expect the guy with no Murmurs, who was there to farm them even, to get the first Requiem and eliminate one of these numbers, to instead take a one-in-8 gamble that, if failed, will make the Lich even stronger, and berate them for being understandably not up for it, especially if they fill out a Murmur and stand to gain literally nothing from the gamble?  You're the problem here.   There are two cases for not doing a stab on your Lich.  The first is if you've got no Requiems figured out, and the second is if your Murmur ring is full and you'll gain an idea of what Requiem is required, bypassing some of the random chance.

tl;dr:  You joined a pub, you're not the boss.  If you want your Lich dead, make a squad of like-minded people in Recruiting, since there's always gonna be people looking to kill their Lich off and have it decoded.  Otherwise, put up or shut up, you're not my boss.

19 stabs. The answer behind getting all clues is 19 stabs. Hotfix 26.0.4,

Tweaked the Requiem Murmur discovery requirements for each hint to reduce initial ramp-up:

• Instead of each Murmur requiring the same amount of Hints, the first Murmur requires 60%, second requires 100%, with the last Murmur requiring 140%

Testing a Requiem on a Lich now advances Murmur progress by roughly 10x more than a Thrall on average.

Before that 50 murmurs, or 50 thralls, were needed for each clue. 60% of 50 is 30, 140* of 50 is 70.*

Killing a lich gives roughly 10x thrall's murmur, can be translated to 10 murmur per lich stab.

So to get all clues without killing any thralls in the process you need to do 3 stabs for first clue, 5 for second, 7 for 3rd. That totals up to 15 stabs.

Now since its supposed to be a worst case scenario, these will be counted as stabs without any requiems slotted, and you only start putting requiems in parazon after getting all 3 clues.

That would be 4 extra stabs. Knowing the requiems you only need 4 stabs at most to find the right order through trial an error.

123 , if 1 was correct and 23 is wrong then only correct combination left is 132. 1 stab + 1 correct stab. lucky.

231 , if 2 was correct and 31 is wrong then only correct combination left is 213. 2 stab + 1 correct stab. lucky.

312 , if 3 was correct and 12 is wrong then only correct combination left is 321. 3 stab + 1 correct stab. unlucky.

*Of course this is assuming one thrall = 1 murmur and one lich = 10x thrall = 10x1 = 10 murmur. There's the case of thralls giving less than 1 murmur per kill which would be weird but it is possible.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Yoruno
typos

[CuChulainnWD]

3 minutes ago, Yoruno said:

I mean, have you read the title? It wasn't "DE needs to fix this" but "ban these people". With his recent reply to me im more inclined to believe OP doesn't care if it's DE or mechanic issue, he cares that he's not getting to play in his pace, in public. But yeah i admit its better to not get swept up with the tone OP set.

 

Have you considered, me playing devils advocate here, that perhaps he was too upset to think things through to their logical conclusion? Perhaps now he might reconsider? Just putting that out there. DE is at fault for much of his rage. Give the OP a chance to see the error of his ways and maybe he might surprise you.  Then again, maybe not.

Edited November 17, 2019 by CuChulainnWD

[MPonder]

Solo them guys, then you can stab or not with no one complaining. Best thing DE should do anyway, make them solo only, so you don't get "carried" in your lich by the group.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MPonder

[Yoruno]

Just now, CuChulainnWD said:

Have you considered, me playing devils advocate here, that perhaps he was too upset to think things through to their logical conclusion? Perhaps now he might reconsider? Just putting that out there. DE is at fault for much of his rage.

Thats why i mentioned his recent reply to me. It boiled down to "i know lich won't rank up even if i had to die, but i dont want to kill myself, and telling me to kill myself or go solo is rude". so nothing's changed from the beginning. Perhaps he's still upset, perhaps.

[Sintag]

9 minutes ago, Remedyheart said:

Then please share you insane time saving secret with the audience.

I honestly want to see some proof that my effort on 20 liches was squandered.

Here I am trying ti make guides on lich hunting and I still run into this probpem. In forums and in the game.

I don't how much more I can help at this point of time if you don't bother reading or trying it yourself.

My secret?

Patience.  I wait until I have a third of the code put together so I'm not aimlessly flailing as much.  I borrow a certain other method you might've spotted.

If I don't know, well, one very viable solution, especially if you're like me, prefer casters, and don't particularly want to further armor up a Lich, is very simple.  Book it to the exit and handle it later, rather then beat my head against a brick wall, and my spine against their knees.

I also don't have much choice this go around, saw this method after I got Lich 3, but for Lich 4 and onward?  Going Solo or Invite Only with clanmates, and making sure they know what it is I'm going to do and why.

[Graavarg]

49 minutes ago, Yoruno said:

With his recent reply to me im more inclined to believe OP doesn't care if it's DE or mechanic issue, he cares that he's not getting to play in his pace, in public. But yeah i admit its better to not get swept up with the tone OP set.

I hope DE fixes this asap.

But this is about how players behave, unless you totally missed the point. And bullying and harassing other players that only play the game DE has given them can NEVER be ok. I wonder why you find it so hard to agree with that. Try saying it: bullying and harassing others in order to get them to do what you want is WRONG. Totally wrong.

That has been the largest surprise to me, that there actually are (quite a lot of) players defending that kind of behaviour. I had no idea that would happen when I wrote the first post, instead I was pretty sure most would agree (that bullying and harassing is wrong). Nope, seems some think it is ok, and that is on them. I posted on the forum after having observed some of the most obnoxious behaviour in warframe ever, and it got worse and worse (during my first 8 or so lichs). Pure a-hole schoolyard sh-theel bullying, especially of lower MR players. And even grouping up on single players, like bullies tend to do.

So do you have it in you to at least agree that bullying and harassing other players is wrong? Or maybe that is the "wrong tone" for you?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Graavarg

[White_Matter]

4 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Which is why you didn't. You just mistakenly think you did, precisely because you don't understand it.

Only that I did. I layed out the pros and the cons for both situations, and both on paper and on practice confronting the lich yields better results.

Never mind the ill demeanor people cause when they choose to ignore their lich and block their squad mates spawns. So there is also a morality aspect to it, "do the right thing."

And honestly, if you can't deal with lvl 5 lich or 80-100 enemies with a squad, you have to "git gud" brother. Don't blame the game, blame yourself.

[Yoruno]

15 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

But this is about how players behave, unless you totally missed the point. And bullying and harassing other players that only play the game DE has given them can NEVER be ok. I wonder why you find it so hard to agree with that. Try saying it: bullying and harassing others in order to get them to do what you want is WRONG. Totally wrong.

18 hours ago, Yoruno said:

What you're saying would hold water IF the community is atleast at 50/50 split, at which point the entire community would give up pubbing because there's a chance of atleast 1-2 person in every pub keeping their lich alive blocking others, thus simply not worth going pub if they want to have their own lich up. so yes you are right.

But that isn't the case. The people wanting to keep lich alive in pub is in the minority low enough that even now players are reliably getting pubs that would willingly kill their lich. Assuming someone runs into a pub with a lich holder once every 5 pubs, that's 1 player D out of 15 possible teammates.

Because the odd is that significant where the players that wants lich killed and also kill their own, is far more than players who don't, killing your lich in pub became an expected courtesy in pub, sort of like an unspoken rule like with waiting for teammates in elevator, or not extracting in fissures until every got the traces. Only to get this player D once every 5 pubs with his own rules.

In any case harassment and abuse is not ok.

Page 15.

I don't condone harassment and abuse, i never did. But i don't agree with your actions that led to enraging pubs that have met players like you either.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, Remedyheart said:

Just do us a favor give it both methods a try and see which one you like afterwards because I'n sure majority census will be the ladder here.