Nerf Serration and Buff Faction Dmg

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

If I get another dozen weapon configs, then sure I guess?

Just means burning a c**p tonne of endo/credits on those primed bane.

You're just replacing 1 mandatory mod with 4(?) more. 

[Avienas]

1 minute ago, SprinKah said:

Ew, you do you but I aint wasting my time going in and out just to switch over a different build for another faction. 

Just build for Grineer. If it can beat Grineer, it can beat Corpus and Infested and that's just the fact of life. 

Double honest where i just defaulted to 2 types after re-ra-reviewing damage type so many times.

• Corrosive on high level grineer.
• Viral for anything that aint Infested.

Heck technically long as your not fighting `boss corpus`, Anything can be massacred with Corrosive damage since its Neutral to everything and bonus damage against ferrite and fossil armor. Which still is gonna strip any type of paultry armor health types they got mixed in.

The only time you would normally use Viral is when its corpus or low-level grineer you likely have things like C.P. and others already doing a good job on removing enemy armor with ease. Since by then your going to do a bigger impact on cutting enemy health in half, plus you get a damage bonus to corpus & grineer flesh anyway.

Honestly things like Faction damage and so many very very veeeeery utility wise mods might as well of been in the weapon exilus slot, since they still have no place till D.E. condenses gun mods to make more innate stats and free up that bench so we have space to make real modding options. Since easily 6 out of the 8 slots are basically perma lock to specificc mods, regardless of how many times you spin that modding setup, less you are running with a status only type gun. Which is still 4, maybe 5 mods that are still on the perma lock bench.

D.E. can talk about not wanting weapon exilus slots to have DPS mods for it, but considering weapons and warframes have different definitions for `utility mods`, restricting the selection so much kind of ruins the purpose of what the exilus slot is for. 

Never the less, since D.E. is clearly too pre-occupied on fixing things like old blood, i sadly cant expect them to get around to other things, such as giving us melee exilus slots(one of the weapon types that could really use it and have basically no room for D.E. to pull the same gag with weapon exilus slots, since doing so would likely result in maybe only 2 to 3 mods that would fit the logic and people would be REALLY pissed over such).

Heck i am still salty that exalted guns seem to have not got the weapon exilus slots either.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

2 minutes ago, Tetraneon said:

If you are not already putting crit mods on your weapons then youre mission out on dmg...

and i proposed no increase to crit mods...

thus in totality, it would not be as good as it is now.

We have many weapons that easily get to 10k Of a element,
with all the dmg/multishot/element mods then you add crit % and crit dmg (which can easily hit 5.5x)


obviously with a DMG mod not giving you 120% dmg but rather only 30%,
that total of 10k will be a lot less...

however with changing status mods,
you could build for

30 sec status duration,
80% status chance,
80% crit chance,
5.5 crit dmg

4000 Radiation...

The problem with that build is simple: "The only good status effect is Dead."

Maybe if you had a mod to increase status damage so that a slash/toxin/heat proc could kill an enemy faster, or a mod to make status effects tick their damage faster, then having status replace base damage would be okay.

But the current state of the game is 'kill everything as fast as possible', so until DE reworks affinity/focus and drop-tables, the only good status effect is Dead. So unless your plan gives us a simple way to get back to the current DPS level, it's a change that will have to wait for a major game overhaul. Faction damage isn't it, because there are enemies that aren't affected by any faction damage mods in the game currently (sentients, Stalker/Shadow Stalker, etc.), which would make them significantly harder to deal with if your change relies on faction damage to make up the difference (unless DE gives us Sentient faction damage mods in prep for The New War).

[Tetraneon]

10 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

You just contradicted yourself. As it stands,

600 damage * 25% crit * 2x crit damage = ~750 sustained DPS

300 damage * 25% crit * 2x crit damage = ~375 sustained DPS

300 damage * 190% crit (blood rush) * 3.8x crit damage (organ shatter) = ~1896 Sustained DPS

So while the overall damage from crit will go down, the reliance on crit will go up, to counteract the reduction to base.

 

how do you go from  25% to 190% ?

And if you could just go to 190% then why didnt you add it when you had 600 dmg lol

 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, Tetraneon said:

how do you go from  25% to 190% ?

And if you could just go to 190% then why didnt you add it when you had 600 dmg lol

 

I put the mod names there. I was simply illustrating that your idea makes crit absolutely mandatory and removes any possibility of making status weapons work.

[Raikh]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Tetraneon:

When i refer to status damage i refer to

Impact/Slash/Puncture/Heat/Cold/Toxin/Elec and all the other combinations,
as well as Status %, Status Duration, as well as Dmg vs Corpus..

Status Durations Issue is not necessarily the vlaue on the mod. You simply don't want to take that long to kill an enemy for it to take effect. Even on Rivens where it rolls fairly high it isn't very valuable for that exact reason.

Elemental Mods are well off. Flat Status CHance could need help to icnrease diversity by avoiding to lock people into running dual status mods in all cases tehy want a status build, agreed.

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Tetraneon:

600 dmg * 100% crit chance * 5.5 crit dmg = +-3300 sustained dmg
300 dmg  * 100% crit chance * 5.5 crit dmg =  +- 1650 sustained dmg

these are examples dont believe my numbers..

Reducing base dmg would result in lower crits,

Yeah and your elemental damage is also halfed, as is the damage of your status procs. Base Damage scales everything up. Removing it doesn't favor anything, its a neutral loss for everything. But by removing a multiplier you push weapons towards being hybrids as pures of any kind can't stack as many multipliers anymore, which makes pure status and pure crit weapons worse than they already are.

 

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Tetraneon:

At the end of the day,
the best builds should always be a mix between Crit and Status Builds...

Which is the case right now and has been the case for the longest time for the majortiy of high end weapons. Hunter Munitions cheats on that bit though.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Tetraneon:

t would actually require you to know how the game works...
not just run in witht the same loadout every time,
which means learning more about actual weapons,
not using same weapons for every single mission,
learning more about the status types and what they actually do

If we had an easy slot for faction damage or if it was so oppressively OP that you desperately wanted to use it, then you would just slot it for whatever faction you are up against. There is nothing to know about your weapon or your status effects to make use of Faction Damage.

Primed Banes are already quite good, especially for Gas weapons but most people still don't use them because of the bland tedium they are. Some people might use them on Gas weapons for endurance runs, situations where the Banes are already good.
You help nobody by trying to force people into running a specifc Bane for each mission. People who want to minmax with them can already do so.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Raikh

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Tetraneon:

how do you go from  25% to 190% ?

He actually knows how the game works.

[Tetraneon]

1 minute ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I put the mod names there. I was simply illustrating that your idea makes crit absolutely mandatory and removes any possibility of making status weapons work.

yes but if you can achieve 190% crit right now,
you would be using it, not 25%...

which means if your base dmg reduced by 50%

your dps would be halved too..

Thus instead of adding serration,
you would keep your crit mods,
but would now rather use status mods/ faction mods/ elemental mods...

[(XBOX)yepbeeble]

34 minutes ago, Tetraneon said:

thats chancing it lol...

my point is that dmg mods make up for too much of the dmg you do,
which means even with the incorrect status types, you still do plenty dmg to enemies

The point of damage mods is to make up for much if the damage you do, do you not understand how damage works in Warframe? Yes, Corrosive works well for Grineer and Radiation for corrosive, but for all of the factions, Viral works no matter what. Your point is moot, when without damage, viral/corrosive/magnetic are all pretty much useless as damage determines the potency of said statuses.

[Tetraneon]

Just now, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

He actually knows how the game works.

I know what bloodrush is,
but why would'nt you be using those mods now.

plus my motivation is less about melee,
which already does make status/crit builds awesome...

with things like bloodrush/Weeping willow blah blah blah...

 

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

But why do you want to nerf it? You should think about it more before going to where you at right now

[Tetraneon]

1 minute ago, (XB1)razberryX said:

The point of damage mods is to make up for much if the damage you do, do you not understand how damage works in Warframe? Yes, Corrosive works well for Grineer and Radiation for corrosive, but for all of the factions, Viral works no matter what. Your point is moot, when without damage, viral/corrosive/magnetic are all pretty much useless as damage determines the potency of said statuses.

please edit your post and repeat what you are trying to say..

"is to make up for much if the damage you do" - huh?

Viral does not work no matter what

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#All

as you will see it is bad against infested

[Tetraneon]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

But why do you want to nerf it? You should think about it more before going to where you at right now

because it sucks being able to kill everything soo easily...

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 minute ago, Tetraneon said:

yes but if you can achieve 190% crit right now,
you would be using it, not 25%...

which means if your base dmg reduced by 50%

your dps would be halved too..

Thus instead of adding serration,
you would keep your crit mods,
but would now rather use status mods/ faction mods/ elemental mods...

And my point is that unless DE reworks the game, a loss to DPS isn't viable right now. Status can't make up for DPS because 1: most of the tougher enemies in the game (the ones we need our high dps for) are immune to some or all status effects and 2: an enemy that is still alive is an enemy that can still kill you, even if they will die within 1/10 of a second after they shoot you. Making enemies die over time instead of ASAP is not viable in the current state of the game, especially with the current Lich mechanics.

Also, if I am keeping my crit build, where do I add in these status/faction mods? Melee weapons right now have full builds just for crit, as do most Primaries. Secondary crit builds have at most 2 slots available, but most only have 1. If we are going to have to add more mods to our existing Crit setups to keep our current DPS, where are these mods going to be added?

[Tetraneon]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)razberryX said:

The point of damage mods is to make up for much if the damage you do, do you not understand how damage works in Warframe? Yes, Corrosive works well for Grineer and Radiation for corrosive, but for all of the factions, Viral works no matter what. Your point is moot, when without damage, viral/corrosive/magnetic are all pretty much useless as damage determines the potency of said statuses.

except when your status chance increasing mods are +90%,
your slah/impact/puncture mods are +90%
and when your Bane of XXX is +90%

but your serrcation is maxed at +50%

then you get back to something where your weapon can be even better than it is now,
but against specific factions,
but instead of everyone using the same weapon for every single mission
COUGH COUGH CATCHMOON
you would actually change your weapon for each faction
 

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (XB1)WolfKingLeo:

But why do you want to nerf it? You should think about it more before going to where you at right now

Nerfing it would cause people to use other mods instead, potentially increasing variety. But replacing a damage buff with a conditional damage buff only increases clumyness and uneccessary micro management (imho).

Faction damage is not attactive atm. I did not do any math but there is a possibility where it comes out on top, but that's about it. If you don't want to constantly minmax your loadout you usually ditch faction damage. But just turning the tables in favor of faction damage wouldn't do any good either.

Edited November 20, 2019 by (PS4)de_sch0sch

[makaloff95]

So uhm, how are you planning to balace things like ESO, arbies, sorties etc? I say fix the armor+healthscaling of enemies first, then we can talk about nerfing mods

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

1 minute ago, Tetraneon said:

because it sucks being able to kill everything soo easily...

But even when you nerf it, you can still technically kill quickly with faction damage. And also we have other weapons not just Primary

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

2 minutes ago, Tetraneon said:

please edit your post and repeat what you are trying to say..

"is to make up for much if the damage you do" - huh?

Viral does not work no matter what

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#All

as you will see it is bad against infested

As an elemental damage type, it is bad against infested. As a status effect, it is excellent against a faction that primarily uses health.

I believe what he is trying to say is that most elemental types are useless for their raw damage and only useless for their status effect, but that those status effects are useless if you don't have the raw DPS to back them up.

[Tetraneon]

4 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

And my point is that unless DE reworks the game, a loss to DPS isn't viable right now. Status can't make up for DPS because 1: most of the tougher enemies in the game (the ones we need our high dps for) are immune to some or all status effects and 2: an enemy that is still alive is an enemy that can still kill you, even if they will die within 1/10 of a second after they shoot you. Making enemies die over time instead of ASAP is not viable in the current state of the game, especially with the current Lich mechanics.

Also, if I am keeping my crit build, where do I add in these status/faction mods? Melee weapons right now have full builds just for crit, as do most Primaries. Secondary crit builds have at most 2 slots available, but most only have 1. If we are going to have to add more mods to our existing Crit setups to keep our current DPS, where are these mods going to be added?

current lich mechanics suck,

it is so easy to kill that its almost disappointing

[Tetraneon]

1 minute ago, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

But even when you nerf it, you can still technically kill quickly with faction damage. And also we have other weapons not just Primary

yes but it wouldnt just mean i can run around with melee and destroy everything,
i would need to switch between primary/secondry and melee to truly be effective

 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, Tetraneon said:

current lich mechanics suck,

it is so easy to kill that its almost disappointing

Not at level 5. If your lich is at level 5, it has millions of eHP and is status immune, which makes them really hard to kill.

Your proposal would only make that worse, and require players to only bring certain weapons on lich missions.

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

Nerfing it would cause people to use other mods instead, potentially increasing variety. But replacing a damage buff with a conditional damage buff only increases clumyness and uneccessary micro management (imho).

Faction damage is no attactive atm. I did not do any math but there is a possibility where it comes out on top, but that's about it. If you don't want to constantly minmax your loadout you usually ditch faction damage. But just turning the tables in favor of faction damage wouldn't do any good.

But if you're thinking about it you are doing less damage to those Faction enemies

[Tetraneon]

7 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Not at level 5. If your lich is at level 5, it has millions of eHP and is status immune, which makes them really hard to kill.

Your proposal would only make that worse, and require players to only bring certain weapons on lich missions.

I melee the #*!% out of level 5s and Im also not struggling..

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

2 minutes ago, Tetraneon said:

yes but it wouldnt just mean i can run around with melee and destroy everything,
i would need to switch between primary/secondry and melee to truly be effective

 

Serration is what make our weapons do work against those higher level targets. Nerfing it would make it do less damage not to mention you would be struggling to do damage to those certain types of enemies. And also Shotguns don't use Serration so...