In Arbitrations, remove WF invulnerability while in Operator mode

[Uthael]

Originally, the plan was to not be able to revive at all. That had left the dead player in a "abort or be bored" state.

Now, reviving a downed Warframe just takes a bit longer. It's actually easier because you don't have to stay in place unable to defend yourself while you're reviving. That is... 'Til Void Form made it brainlessly simple.

I believe that Void Form helps beating Arbitrations too much. It's Stasis-Invulnerability on-demand AND teleport on-demand for any frame we use. If I see a high-level damage-over-time on me, I press 5 and wait it out. If I'm really surrounded by Grineer marines worthy of the name "marines", I press 5, hold Ctrl and tap Space a few times.

Arbitrations are DE's response to players asking for challenge. The challenge is quite diminished by Operator mode, though. Removing it for this mission type would feel limiting and would actually make no sense.

Also, according to lore, we're in our most vulnerable state when in Operator mode. Game mechanics, however, says otherwise. Both the Warframe and the operator are invulnerable in this state.
Therefore, I suggest that In Arbitrations, Warframes don't get invulnerability when Operator is out. It's but a crutch anyway.

If a Warframe dies while the player is in Operator mode, we could revive it with a normal revive. If the Operator dies and the Warframe is dead, too, the Arbitration-style revive becomes necessary. Reviving your own Frame while in Operator mode would be possible, but impractical since the Frame still doesn't have invulnerability and is still surrounded by Grineer marines. Teammates would have to clear them first.

Also, Protective Dash (Vazarin) might actually get used for this purpose, making it a viable choice along with Zenurik and Naramon.

[DarthIronclad]

Personally i have to admit the opera mode is one of the things that can make high level content less of a challenge,as you have stuff like magus elevate and lockdown,and being in void mode means you can't die,sure it does help in survivability for the more squishy frames,but it makes tanky frames,which most basically can't die if built right,even more tanky.

Edited December 5, 2019 by DarthIronclad

[kengxiaoju]

U must know When abilities active u receive reduced dmg.no active no dmg.

20 minutes ago, Uthael said:

, according to lore, we're in our most vulnerable state when in Operator mode

no we are void  demons. 

 

if players want challenges,I suggest high tier （20+rotation） arbitration especially disruption. U will like the challenge （do not use volt and oberon ）

[Xaero]

I like this idea, would definitely make things more challenging.

[tarfeef101]

The problem I have here is that it provides a way (sometimes, one-shotting notwithstanding) for solo players to extend missions. 

They "solved" the problem for co-op modes with the revive mechanic, but solo players are still somewhat left behind there (and there are many justifiable reasons to play solo, so let's not open that argument here).

I'm all for a change like this, actually. Operator mode can basically trivialize anything. You can be immortal, and deal damage without actually leaving that invulnerable state (% health damage as well). Not to mention it can heal your frame and regen energy at the same time... And it also allows you to gain energy while invis, unlike say, ivara. So I'm totally down with taking that down a peg, at least in arbitrations to test it out. Perhaps a massive energy drain increase, and/or no energy regen for the operator while in operator mode, or maybe bringing the invulnerability down to some % damage reduction instead... There's definitely room to try stuff out here.

BUT I would still want a way for solo players to continue play when your frame gets switch TPed, or just one-shot by a nullifier, etc. The revive mechanic works great for co-op play, and all I ask is something analogous for solo modes. Maybe a "get x kills while downed to earn a revive" mode, or "sacrifice your next rotation reward to revive", or something (I would prefer something like the former though to make it more engaging and gameplay-centric rather than just pressing a button to get rid of a reward that I feel most ppl probably won't bother doing). That way, like the co-op revive, you still have to work for it, and it won't always work, but it avoid everything ending on a one-off occurence if you're still overall well-equipped.

[Uthael]

Getting X kills while downed is oftentimes impossible. Environmental hazards or self-damage or most often - that last enemy.

Sacrifice the last earned reward to revive is something I'd have to think about right there. I'd like that. Solo only. Wouldn't want people force this on others.

[Ikusias]

I'd rather have DE put back bleedout state inArbitrations while removing both operator mode and revival tower+charges from them.

And removing drones invulnerabilities, those are absolutely stupid

[DrBorris]

"Challenge" should not involve breaking the normal rules that govern the game, a challenge should if anything put more emphasis on the normal rules of the game. This is already my biggest beef with Arbitrations, playing an Arbitration doesn't feel like playing Warframe because of how the Arbitration Drones skew the gameplay so heavily.

I want challenging content to feel like Warframe, not just tack on a bunch of annoying modifiers as a way to artificially force "challenge".

[tarfeef101]

3 hours ago, Uthael said:

Getting X kills while downed is oftentimes impossible. Environmental hazards or self-damage or most often - that last enemy.

Sacrifice the last earned reward to revive is something I'd have to think about right there. I'd like that. Solo only. Wouldn't want people force this on others.

Yeah it was just an idea of something more interactive than sacrificing rewards. A lot of setups involve frame buffs to create an ability to kill (sonar banshee, armour stripping frames, etc). So it'd not really work for quite a few setups. Maybe something more realistic is give the player an option to gamble like the reward sacrifice, but this time less boring:

Sacrifice some balanced amount of rotational rewards earned (could be 1 or all of them so far, or anything in between), and accept a challenge to be allowed to continue (get x kills in a time limit, raise enemy levels for the duration of the challenge, half the health of your defense objective, etc. tons of options). If we go with time-limited challenges (such as x kills in a time period, or spawn in a mini-boss during the gameplay), then if you fail the mission ends and you lose your sacrifice. If you succeed, it goes back to normal and you continue. Or if they are just permanent challenges (could make the def objective half health for the rest of the mission, or enemy levels could just scale up by 20 from the moment you accept, etc), then just lose what you gambled if you fail by the next rotation perhaps.

(hint hint WF devs, make one of the challenges higher spawns in survival cause most of us want that anyways)

[tarfeef101]

3 hours ago, Ikusias said:

I'd rather have DE put back bleedout state inArbitrations while removing both operator mode and revival tower+charges from them.

And removing drones invulnerabilities, those are absolutely stupid

Don't agree with the LS part... You can have mission where you're killing almost instantly, and getting everything around you. But there just aren't enough enemies. If the limiting factor was being able to kill what was there, rather than just not having enough enemies to try and kill, I'd be okay with that.

[Yamazuki]

6 hours ago, Uthael said:

Arbitrations are DE's response to players asking for challenge. The challenge is quite diminished by Operator mode, though.

Although, Operator doesn't do that. Warframe choice, arcanes, weapons, and any consumables used has a far greater impact than Operator does, even more so when you actually pay attention to what most people are even doing and realize most people don't even use their Operator other than for Energizing Dash. Effectively removing Operator doesn't increase the difficulty of arbitration at all other than make durable setups even more desirable than they already are.

Arbitration doesn't even start at a high enough level to really be challenging, as by the time many people leave, standard 4-6 rounds of any game mode, the enemies are still with-in typical game levels; survival as an example, it takes about 45 minutes for enemies to start passing the rest of the game, at 1 hour enemies are barely hitting 200. Arbitration's "challenge" are the drones that die in 1 hit, and not having bleed out state. It isn't much different than Sorties or Nightmare missions with their varied rules that change the game as a form of "challenge".

[Uthael]

2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Although, Operator doesn't do that. Warframe choice, arcanes, weapons, and any consumables used has a far greater impact than Operator does, even more so when you actually pay attention to what most people are even doing and realize most people don't even use their Operator other than for Energizing Dash. Effectively removing Operator doesn't increase the difficulty of arbitration at all other than make durable setups even more desirable than they already are.

Arbitration doesn't even start at a high enough level to really be challenging, as by the time many people leave, standard 4-6 rounds of any game mode, the enemies are still with-in typical game levels; survival as an example, it takes about 45 minutes for enemies to start passing the rest of the game, at 1 hour enemies are barely hitting 200. Arbitration's "challenge" are the drones that die in 1 hit, and not having bleed out state. It isn't much different than Sorties or Nightmare missions with their varied rules that change the game as a form of "challenge".

I'm fully aware of all of that. OK, replace "quite" with "somewhat" or even "slightly" if you wish.

If you're not affected by the proposed change, good for you! Continue using Zenurik. It's always nice to have a choice. I still think the change would do more good than harm to the Arbitrations experience.