Short Hydroid changes request

[Graive]

I've also created a reddit post that can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/ehqjlz/hydroid_change_request_before_deluxe_release/

 

 

[Mardomus]

On 2019-12-28 at 2:02 PM, Graive said:

Increase Tidal Surge movement speed and maneuverability. Similar to Rhino's Ironclad Charge, Tidal Surge now grants a stackable buff based on # of enemies hit (15% damage resistance up to 90%). The timer scales on duration (10s base). The timer refreshes when new enemies are hit with Tidal Surge but the buff % resets only after the timer has expired. Optional: add to his current augment. A copy paste of Ember's Immolated Radiance, granting allies 45% damage reduction while also making it wipe current status effect.

I don't know of Rhino's Ironclad Charge, but Revenant's Reave during Danse Macabre has some good maneuverability. Tidal Surge movement is based off Duration, so at 254% Duration the ability speed is 76.2m/s. Basically, it doesn't need a boost. Rather than damage resistance buff, it should be a debuff on the amount of enemies hit scaling off Duration; max 90%. Also, (Augment) enemies hit by Tidal Surge, while in Undertow, strips % armor and remains submerged once Surge is over. Not sure if it does that now, and if it does then it's bugged. Also, if he is not in Undertow, he gains 6 seconds of Invulnerability once Tidal Surge is over. 

 

On 2019-12-28 at 2:02 PM, Graive said:

30% more barrage instances with radius scaling based on power range. Optional: Make his current augment innate. His new augment, Explosive Barrage, doubles the water missiles and gives the party a blast damage buff when held (like all the other elemental based warframes).

I like the barrage scaling of power range Idea. His augment should be similar to Saryn, Volt, Frost, & Oberon giving players within range corrosive dmg buff scaling off Duration or Range. I'm not feeling the blast and corrosive works well considering the augment already gives him that status. Also, not sure if you want this, but take away the idea of holding the ability for more damage. So useless. 

 

On 2019-12-28 at 2:02 PM, Graive said:

Puddle now attracts enemies, but does not alert them (similar to Ivara's noise arrow). Additionally, puddle submerges your companion. Similar to Harrow's Covenant, Hydroid and his companion receive three seconds of invincibility upon exiting puddle, after which Hydroid receives two buffs that scale dependent on damage absorbed while invincible and power strength (1.50% per 100 damage points prevented) : a Health regen buff based on enemy kills (5% of health per kill at base up to a maximum of 40%) and Critical damage buff (25% critical damage at base up to a maximum of 200%). These buffs have a timer which is dependent on Duration (15s base).  Optional: Make his augment also regen health on enemy kill and add his critical damage buff for allies and companions.

Make his Undertow similar to what was done to Nezha's 1st ability. Increase the Duration, and take away the channel. Nezha's Fire Walker starts off at 30s Duration without mods and given Hydroid kit works well with Duration, it will keep him in Undertow longer while gaining energy, mods, ammo, etc. Increase the damage of enemies in Undertow scaling off Duration. 

 

On 2019-12-28 at 2:02 PM, Graive said:

Damage dealt by tentacles now scales with time as well, increasing their strength by 15% every second they are active. A final burst of true damage is created when the ability finishes.

Keep its raw damage and do this, but let the strength of active attacks per second scale off Duration. 

[Graive]

1 hour ago, Mardomus said:

I don't know of Rhino's Ironclad Charge, but Revenant's Reave during Danse Macabre has some good maneuverability. Tidal Surge movement is based off Duration, so at 254% Duration the ability speed is 76.2m/s. Basically, it doesn't need a boost. Rather than damage resistance buff, it should be a debuff on the amount of enemies hit scaling off Duration; max 90%. Also, (Augment) enemies hit by Tidal Surge, while in Undertow, strips % armor and remains submerged once Surge is over. Not sure if it does that now, and if it does then it's bugged. Also, if he is not in Undertow, he gains 6 seconds of Invulnerability once Tidal Surge is over. 

Good point regarding speed, removed from proposal. Ironclad charge was referring to the damage resistance buff, not maneuverability. I've reworded to make it more clear, sorry about that. With regard to maneuverability the suggestion I've received was to make it like Wukong's cloud walker, which would require changes to the animation (what would the wave look like when stationary?). Revenant's Reave is the better way to go since it wouldn't require changes to the animation. Added. I'm a little confused what you're saying should be debuffed, armor on enemies? I wanted to give Hydroid a means of having more viability (built in adaptation), and think a debuff doesn't get at that at all. 6 seconds of invulnerability is an extremely long window and any automated invulnerability after tidal surge takes away from actually utilizing Hydroid's abilities in conjunction (tidal surge to undertow). He needs some way to die, invulnerability after 2 skills is just too large a cushion.

1 hour ago, Mardomus said:

I'm not feeling the blast and corrosive works well considering the augment already gives him that status. Also, not sure if you want this, but take away the idea of holding the ability for more damage. So useless. 

I agree, corrosive would be better, but Saryn already has it. The last thing I want is to create player opposition toward my suggested changes, especially since giving it to Hydroid may result in her having it removed. I also suggested removing all charging mechanics, I'll correct to make it stand out a little more (you're the second person who's missed it, so I just suck at editing, haha).

1 hour ago, Mardomus said:

Make his Undertow similar to what was done to Nezha's 1st ability. Increase the Duration, and take away the channel. Nezha's Fire Walker starts off at 30s Duration without mods and given Hydroid kit works well with Duration, it will keep him in Undertow longer while gaining energy, mods, ammo, etc. Increase the damage of enemies in Undertow scaling off Duration. 

I thought about this comment a lot. With how undertow currently works, picking up drops happens outside undertow and isn't dependent on the channeling effect (if it did, we'd still be able to pick up health and ammo while in undertow). I do see other benefits to having it be a flat duration skill rather than channeled (more energy economy) but feel this lingers on being too powerful. You're right, the majority of his kit is duration based, but players should need to decide among the prevalent stats in his kit, not only concentrate on one (duration with what you're proposing). In my proposal, I'd assume most players would need to decide between power and duration with range or efficiency being possible junk stats.

1 hour ago, Mardomus said:

Keep its raw damage and do this, but let the strength of active attacks per second scale off Duration. 

So more attacks per second. Even though this would be amazing if a debuff mechanism were tied to it, the stronger attacks in my proposal achieves the same effect while 1. not requiring animation code altering (speeding up the tentacles) and 2. not working inversely to duration (I'm assuming you're proposition makes more duration increase number of strikes, which is a little counter intuitive).

Edited December 31, 2019 by Graive

[Graive]

On 2019-12-29 at 5:47 PM, NuclearCoffeePot said:

Augment- On cast Hydroid would create a zone around himself that dropped it;s own missiles

I like this idea especially and have been trying to think of how I could incorporate it into my proposal. No ballpark on how much added code it would be so it's hard to figure out.

 

On 2019-12-30 at 10:17 AM, (NSW)SantCruz said:

Hydroid's current issue is that he is a CC frame (therefore damage was never his reason for being) that is inconsistent in his ability to CC since enemies can literally walk through his 1 and 4 without getting caught in it and since his current 3 has no lure effect, they won't get caught in that too. Basically inconsistent RNG based CC in a game that already discourages good CC in favor of killing.

Still trying to figure out ways to make his CC more consistent. I think increased barrages and radius works well for his 1, but his 4 needs help still. More tentacles seems like it would still run into the same issue.

[TheGodofWiFi]

As someone who really would love to see a Hydroid rework, these changes really do not address Hydroids main issues. These changes mainly deal with the stats of the abilities, not the problems with their basic mechanics.

Hydroid was introduced six years ago and in that time has only had one (awful) change to his abilities, before his Prime Access hit the shelves. All it did was force synergy around his puddle, which everyone wants removed or heavily reworked.

Tempest Barrage is far too slow to cast and the angle of the projectiles just make an incredibly awkward ability to use in tight spaces, with them frequently hitting walls and other parts of the environment before they hit enemies. The ability is also flat-out pathetic without it's Corroding Barrage augment. For me personally, when an ability needs an augment to be at the basic decent level, thats when you know something is wrong with it.

Tidal Surge is Excalibur's old Slash Dash in everything but name. Giving it extra manuverability still wouldn't make it good IMO as there are far better methods of travel out there that cost no energy whatsoever. It sucks for CC as well.

Undertow is without a doubt one of, if not the worst ability in the game right now. It is a completely passive ability that requires virtually no input from the player and is just a complete bore and joke in concept and execution. This definitely needs to be replaced with something less awful. The changes you propose are simply not addressing the core issue with this ability, which is that it is incredibly boring and non-interactive. Adding a lure to it would only further increase the AFK gameplay.

Tentacles Swarm suffers similar issues that plague Tempest Barrage. It's hampered by the environment and in open spaces, it is next to useless. You are only ever going to be sure you'll snag an enemy on the initial casting. Beyond that you are relying purely on enemy AI and RNG. Tentacles should not be spawning on walls or ceilings. Doesn't matter if you add true damage to them, the mechanics will always hamper this ability.

Simple QoL tweaks to the stats just will not cut it for this frame. He has been in the game for two thirds of a decade and he has had no real major changes, while the game itself has undergone massive overhauls.

He needs a complete rework.

Edited January 6, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[Graive]

On 2020-01-06 at 5:50 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

As someone who really would love to see a Hydroid rework, these changes really do not address Hydroids main issues. These changes mainly deal with the stats of the abilities, not the problems with their basic mechanics.

I'm sorry, quite simply I disagree. You're correct that they adjust the stats of abilities, but several of the suggestions I put directly impact the elements you've outlined in your reply (and to be honest it seems like you started reading each of my suggestions and stopped 5 or so words in).

On 2020-01-06 at 5:50 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Tempest Barrage is far too slow to cast and the angle of the projectiles just make an incredibly awkward ability to use in tight spaces, with them frequently hitting walls and other parts of the environment before they hit enemies. The ability is also flat-out pathetic without it's Corroding Barrage augment. For me personally, when an ability needs an augment to be at the basic decent level, thats when you know something is wrong with it.

I agree, in it's current form it's unreliable at best. Pretty sure I mentioned decreasing all cast times. Additionally, I agree, it's pathetic without its' corroding barrage augment. This is exactly why I said 1. Make the current augment part of the ability itself (innate) and 2. increase it's reliability by increasing the area each hit strikes within its' cast radius (effectively making multiple strikes actually hit enemies). Your post has inspired me to change this part of my post from optional to mandatory though, so thank you for that.

On 2020-01-06 at 5:50 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Tidal Surge is Excalibur's old Slash Dash in everything but name. Giving it extra manuverability still wouldn't make it good IMO as there are far better methods of travel out there that cost no energy whatsoever. It sucks for CC as well.

Better methods of travel, agreed, but I've ALSO proposed adding a mechanic to it and not only increasing maneuverability. The added mechanic which provides a buff similar to Rhino's augment Ironclad charge would greatly increase Hydroid's survive-ability.

On 2020-01-06 at 5:50 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Undertow is without a doubt one of, if not the worst ability in the game right now. It is a completely passive ability that requires virtually no input from the player and is just a complete bore and joke in concept and execution. This definitely needs to be replaced with something less awful. The changes you propose are simply not addressing the core issue with this ability, which is that it is incredibly boring and non-interactive. Adding a lure to it would only further increase the AFK gameplay.

So I agree with this statement FAR more than you'd assume. I hate puddle and how it encourages afk play. This is exactly why I suggested receiving a buff AFTER EXITING puddle, thereby allowing players with a more aggressive playstyle (like me and you) to be able to deal with enemies outside of casting it. Despite this, I do feel their are players who are huge fans of how they can puddle, therefore I've added the lure.

On 2020-01-06 at 5:50 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Tentacles Swarm suffers similar issues that plague Tempest Barrage. It's hampered by the environment and in open spaces, it is next to useless. You are only ever going to be sure you'll snag an enemy on the initial casting. Beyond that you are relying purely on enemy AI and RNG. Tentacles should not be spawning on walls or ceilings. Doesn't matter if you add true damage to them, the mechanics will always hamper this ability.

I agree, I haven't addressed tentacle storms rng nature in my post, but there is a reason for that. I feel players should be strategic and concentrate Hydroids 4 on one particular area . The only time Hydroid 's current iteration of his 4 becomes unreliable is when range is increased, which encourages a point you made earlier about players being afk and casting. My theory is that by increasing his 4's damage, players will be encouraged to play Hydroid with standard range in order to concentrate his dps on a group or single enemy.  I'll also add that I love that tentacles spawn on walls and ceilings as it's allowed me to kill enemies in unreachable areas, or even kill 2 floors worth of enemies at a time. I also feel there's extremely good synergy with turning into a wave to quickly gather enemies. puddling and casting tentacle storm to double its damage, then jumping out of his puddle to quickly kill the enemies trapped. 

 

I strongly feel a complete rework will just give disappointing results and scale Hydroid for being able to defeat the starchart and not much else. I've seen it done with a lot of other frames and don't want it done to him. I've played warframe over 8k hours, of which 23% of my time has been on hydroid. I frequently play harder content like 1-2 hour arbitration (excavation and survival) with him. I can honestly say based on personal experience, his current kit is ok, but changes would make it better. A complete rework is not only overkill but is often a mixed bag that can leave him in the same or worse place he is now.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Graive
Decreasing, not increasing.

[990k]

Don't you think the passive is a little too similar to Vauban's?

[Graive]

15 hours ago, 990k said:

Don't you think the passive is a little too similar to Vauban's?

I've been mulling this over and quite simply, you're right. My goal was to select a passive that was a copy paste of another passive and change the acting effect (less code to alter. Ash's passive is almost the same as well). But this is just too close. I've been trying to think of another damage related passive but haven't been able to come up with one yet. I did think of a survive-ability related passive just now that is in line with some comments others had made though. It would introduce a semi-balanced invulnerability period, one similar in some coding of Hildryn's passive.

When Hydroid's shield depletes to 0 he (becomes water) and receives a timed invulnerability period whose duration  scales to 20% of the time it takes to replenish Hydroids shields fully. Hydroid's shields have to replenish fully in order for the passive to re-initiate.

I think this would prevent him from being one shot, and can fit thematically with his kit. I'll think on this a little more before changing the main post (just so I can come up with a dps related alternative).

Edited January 9, 2020 by Graive
Adjusted numbers to avoid infinite invulnerability loops. Still thinking on this since it would require a visual change to notify players, something I was avoiding.

[Graive]

Came up with some decent alternate passives based on @990ks comment.  Ranked under defensive and offensive in order of my preference:

Defensive

A fluid being, if Hydroid's Shields and health drop to 0 in less than 1 second, or if Hydroid's health drops to 0 while his shields are above 0 in less than 1 second, Hydroid (becomes water and) receives an invulnerability period of 1.5 seconds. **Reasoning- Harder to implement, this would prevent 1 shots without being overpowered and would require active play. This would require a visual cue for players when the invulnerability kicks in.**

A fluid being, if Hydroid's Shields drops to 0 he (becomes water and) receives an invulnerability period whose duration is 20% of the time it takes to replenish his shields fully. Hydroid's Shields have to replenish fully for the passive to reinitiate. This passive is not active in nullification zones. **Reasoning- hardest to implement, this would also prevent 1 shots and require active play, but this also has a high potential for abuse. To avoid such abuse, this ability would need a weakness such as being inactive in a null zone. This passive would also require some kind of visual cue for players.**

Hydroid's is immune to slash damage. What is slash damage to water itself? **Easiest to implement, a simple passive which curbs higher level damage**

 

Offensive

A brilliant naval strategist, Hydroid hits em where it hurts. Hydroid receives a critical chance additive bonus of 15%.**easiest to implement, this is a simple passive that greatly benefits blast weapons, Hydroid's bread and butter.**

Empowered after embueing himself with the ocean, Hydroid receives a 15% damage bonus for 10 seconds when he uses an ability. **Easy to implement, but the 10 second timer may require an icon**

A fluid being, Hydroid receives a 15% damage bonus for 10 seconds when his weapon is swapped out or he changes to quick melee.**Easy to implement, but the 10 second time may require an icon**

Edited January 9, 2020 by Graive
A few words

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

You're correct that they adjust the stats of abilities, but several of the suggestions I put directly impact the elements you've outlined in your reply (and to be honest it seems like you started reading each of my suggestions and stopped 5 or so words in).

They do not address the core issues and mechanics. You're suggestions have simply added more stats and buffs to certain abilities. That's called a bandaid fix. I read all of your suggestions and I still say they do not address the issues with Hydroid, which is why I commented.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

Pretty sure I mentioned decreasing all cast times. Additionally, I agree, it's pathetic without its' corroding barrage augment. This is exactly why I said 1. Make the current augment part of the ability itself (innate) and 2. increase it's reliability by increasing the area each hit strikes within its' cast radius (effectively making multiple strikes actually hit enemies).

You didn't address the cast time.

Its just decreasing cast times that need to be changed, its removing the whole charge mechanics themselves. I honestly have no idea why DE thought that addin further headache to abilities that already were not very good, was a clever idea.

Making the augment a part of the ability itself was a given. But increasing the radius of the explosion doesn't really solve the big issue; which is that the projectiles are still RNG based and can get caught in the environment due to the awkward angle they fire at. Unless the radius is increased the a very high level, the barrage explosion will still not be able to hit enemies who are currently below a roof or behind a wall. A good example would be Hydron. Half the barrages miss the enemies when they are under the floor or coming down the stairs and they are simply too slow in general.

To keep the ability, they'd need to make it so that it simply goes through the ceilings and walls altogether.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

The added mechanic which provides a buff similar to Rhino's augment Ironclad charge would greatly increase Hydroid's survive-ability.

Its an interesting idea I certainly agree and it has a lot of potential. Its just that the core issue of the ability remains in that it is very clunky. Adding manuverability to it would just make it feel like Revenant's Reave, in that it feels like you're controlling someone who's wearing two rocket-powered rollar skates that are stuck to the ground.

Making the ability so that Hydroid does not travel with the wave would a far better option IMO. Hydroid would send the wave out in a cone in front of him and it gets bigger the further away it gets like a real wave.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

I hate puddle and how it encourages afk play. This is exactly why I suggested receiving a buff AFTER EXITING puddle, thereby allowing players with a more aggressive playstyle (like me and you) to be able to deal with enemies outside of casting it.

You say you hate the AFK encouraging puddle, but you straight up added more incentive to play that way with your changes. Whatever buffs you recieve after exiting it does not matter, you have simply not addressed the core issue with the puddle in the fact it is one of the worst abilities in-game in terms of player interactivity, mechanics and it actually being fun to use.

Adding further stat buffs to the puddle and leaving in its current state still is not a good idea.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

I do feel their are players who are huge fans of how they can puddle, therefore I've added the lure.

I only know of one person who has stated they actually like the puddle gameplay. Everyone else just wants to see it removed or changed.

There were players who were huge fans of Mesa's original Peacemaker, in that all you had to do is activate the ability and go make a sandwhich. That didn't stop DE from changing it and it shouldn't stop Undertow from being changed/removed. Its a lazy ability and your changes are essentially a way for AFK'ers to stop playing the game but still get all the rewards.

I mean you just said you hate AFK gameplay and then you add a lure to one of the most passive AFK abilities in the game right now. Adding a lure would mean a player could sit in the puddle for hours and just have enemies run over to kill themselves without you doing anything whatsoever. That does not help Hydroid.

Undertow needs to be removed entirely or at the very least changed so that you don't sit in it anymore. I suggested a change in a thread a while back that combining Undertow with Tidal Surge to create a new ability where Hydroid sends out a wave in front of him that leaves an Undertow trail enemies can fall into is a lot better than what it is now, which leaves room for a new tank ability in place of his third.

Simply just tweaking a few of his abilities is not enough.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

The only time Hydroid 's current iteration of his 4 becomes unreliable is when range is increased

Hydroid's four is unreliable and useless in any area that is not a tightly-packed corridor, which are slowly but surely being phased out with each new update. Tentacles Swarm is from 2014 era Warframe, where the game was nothing but a load of tight corridors with palette swaps.

Its also another ability thats only marginally useful with its augment for loot. Beyond that the only real use it has is as a source of hentai jokes.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

My theory is that by increasing his 4's damage, players will be encouraged to play Hydroid with standard range in order to concentrate his dps on a group or single enemy

The problem with your theory is that you're basing it on an ability that is totally RNG in nature. You can't concentrate on anything beyond the enemies in the initial casting of Tentacle Swarm.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

I'll also add that I love that tentacles spawn on walls and ceilings as it's allowed me to kill enemies in unreachable areas, or even kill 2 floors worth of enemies at a time.

Unless you're you're talking about casting it in tight-corridors, then thats pretty much impossible since 95% of the enemies are ground based and tentacles are useless when they appear ten feet off the ground on a high wall.

Even then, you're still relying purely on the enemy AI walking into the ability, which is awful.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

I also feel there's extremely good synergy with turning into a wave to quickly gather enemies. puddling and casting tentacle storm to double its damage, then jumping out of his puddle to quickly kill the enemies trapped. 

It's not good synergy as it should not take using all four abilities at once to kill a single group of enemies. Other frames have abilites that can stand on their own as well as help each other. Why would anyone want to use a wave that throws enemies across the room, turn into a puddle, cast tentacle swarm then kill the enemies, when you could just take a Mesa and just kill them all in a quarter of the time and at a quarter of the energy cost?

Or when they could just sit in a puddle and simply wait for the enemies to drown while eating lunch, because that is what the ability basically allows you to do. And adding a lure to that would only further increase that mindset/gameplay style.

It's ridiculous over-synergy thats what it is. There is a reason why Hydroid is mainly only used as a farm frame in resource hotspots.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

I strongly feel a complete rework will just give disappointing results and scale Hydroid for being able to defeat the starchart and not much else.

He can only defeat Starchart level enemies right now if you're not constantly in his puddle att higher levels. The only ability that you can use in end-game is his puddle with it's scaling damage and that is a problem. He has zero real survivability in late game beyond that ability and if you don't use it, you won't be killing any enemies with his other ones anytime soon.

A rework will not make Hydroid any worse than his now, that is for sure. DE can sometimes do reworks right and Hydroid is one of the oldest frames in the game. He can only go up. A full rework is definitely the most common consensus for Hydroid in the Warframe community and for good reason.

He needs to be made better and to do that, some abilities need to either go or be heavily reworked. Like I said, simply adding some stat boosts will not change how people feel towards Hydroid. He needs to be made more interactive, more tanky so he has more survivability and needs to be loss of a one-trick-pony as a farming frame. He's an old frame and the game has moved on from when he was first introduced.

I can understand people not liking change, but when it is needed, it needs to be done. Hydroid has so much potential and his current power set is holding him back big time.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

I've played warframe over 8k hours, of which 23% of my time has been on hydroid

I've also played Hydroid a lot as I love water-elementals in video games. Its why I believe he should be changed.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

I can honestly say based on personal experience, his current kit is ok

And from personal experience, I completely disagree. His kit allows you to live, but not actually play the game and a lot of it is hampered by reasons already mentioned. It promotes an AFK playstyle, half the abilities are useless without augments, they are just too awkwardly designed and they rely a lot on enemy AI and are useless when in certain environments. And quite frankly, he's boring.

His kit barely scratches the surface of what can be done with the element of water and it holds Hydroid back.

On 2020-01-08 at 12:41 AM, Graive said:

A complete rework is not only overkill but is often a mixed bag that can leave him in the same or worse place he is now.

A complete rework for a frame that is six years old and has had no real changes to his kit beyond a Prime Access hotfix, is defintely not overkill. The majority of the community does not think it is overkill. Hydroid's abilities are a relic of a time long past in Warframe's developmental history, go against the flow of the game and DE's aim of player-interactivity and are just not very good. The new direction the game is going only further highlights Hydroid's issues.

A rework can never make Hydroid worse. The only way I could see that realistcally happening is if they make so you can't use any of his abilities unless you're in the puddle.

I honestly do want Hydroid to be better and I appreciate the reply. Its just that keeping Hydroids ability all the exact same but with a few stat changes really does not address his core issues and does not make the most out of his water-elemental theme.

[dreadgame]

deluxe skin

[Jhura]

Ok, suggestion for a replacement of his current 3, the puddle.

 

Instead of turning into a puddle he can cast a whirlpool that draws enemies under when they step on it, instead of him becoming one. This way can shoot into the whirlpool to damage the enemies inside and use it as a zoning tool. Just give it a reasonable duration and keep the scaling damage. 

 

But since that would remove his only defensive ability then I feel his two would have to be completely changed into a defensive. I think his one can work with a removal of the charge mechanic and fixes to the missiles getting stuck on geometry. His 4 needs better AI to seek enemies to be more useful. He needs a different passive as well, the current one just doesn't do anything useful at all.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Jhura

[Graive]

3 hours ago, dreadgame said:

deluxe skin

Can't wait!

[Graive]

 

It seems this isn't the rework for you. If I can't convince you my suggestions do a decent job at addressing his issues, their are other fantastic rework propositions. My proposition is focused on changes which can be tested/utilized before AI and animation changes. With that said, I will address your post because I believe their are legitimate concerns (outside of arguing this general approach is wrong) that my post can benefit from here.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

They do not address the core issues and mechanics. You're suggestions have simply added more stats and buffs to certain abilities. That's called a bandaid fix. I read all of your suggestions and I still say they do not address the issues with Hydroid, which is why I commented.

 

By your claim my suggestions are bandaid fixes ie. any adjustment  only changing time or a status inflicted by/to an ability.  The thing is, this is a viable, and often implemented way to address these kind of problems, especially when a combination of these smaller "bandaid fixes" creates a better, new effect. One example is Nezha. He was mostly adjustment to numbers and status effects. They changed casting speeds, made his heal turn into health orbs dropping, and changed warding halo from giving a shield to being 90% damage reduction.There were only 3 changes to animations I can think of: his hop when initiating his warding halo, the icon depicting armor gained while invulnerable, and the plume of fire when his warding halo is destroyed. There were also several AI changes, but those need a testing environment to figure out at DE (ie. targetting of enemies impaled). Incremental changes can create a larger effect and whole new abilities don't always need to be introduced. I'd wager AI and animation changes occurring after these kind of precursor changes make a stronger more well thought out kit. The precursor changes just need to be well thought out.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

You didn't address the cast time.

Its just decreasing cast times that need to be changed, its removing the whole charge mechanics themselves. I honestly have no idea why DE thought that addin further headache to abilities that already were not very good, was a clever idea.

...

On 2019-12-28 at 11:02 AM, Graive said:

HALF ALL CAST TIMES AND REMOVE CHARGE MECHANICS. 

I literally capitalized it in my main post after your comment since you missed it initially. I also have it in my original reddit post from 10 days ago if you'd like more evidence of me mentioning removing charge mechanics.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Making the augment a part of the ability itself was a given. But increasing the radius of the explosion doesn't really solve the big issue; which is that the projectiles are still RNG based and can get caught in the environment due to the awkward angle they fire at. Unless the radius is increased the a very high level, the barrage explosion will still not be able to hit enemies who are currently below a roof or behind a wall. A good example would be Hydron. Half the barrages miss the enemies when they are under the floor or coming down the stairs and they are simply too slow in general.

To keep the ability, they'd need to make it so that it simply goes through the ceilings and walls altogether.

My assumption was that the radius would be increased to a very high level (2.5-3x greater), but this was still within the confines of it's current iteration. I tested in the simulacrum and the projectiles are an animation which go through walls, the explosion is based on the casting plane (which can be a wall). This means it's entirely dependent on where the player is choosing, not obstacles getting in the way. It's likely the ability feels inaccurate is because it only targets one or two areas of the circle at a time. I assume increasing the # of barrages within the same time frame of the ability should address the ability feeling too slow and inaccurate. If DE wants to adjust the AI for the targeting after that it's on them.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Its an interesting idea I certainly agree and it has a lot of potential. Its just that the core issue of the ability remains in that it is very clunky. Adding manuverability to it would just make it feel like Revenant's Reave, in that it feels like you're controlling someone who's wearing two rocket-powered rollar skates that are stuck to the ground.

Making the ability so that Hydroid does not travel with the wave would a far better option IMO. Hydroid would send the wave out in a cone in front of him and it gets bigger the further away it gets like a real wave.

I like the fact that he can move quickly, knockdown enemies, or avoid danger if needed with this ability. Being able to control Reave or it feeling overly clunky is more of a subjective opinion (I've met many players who like it and can maneuver it easily).

So Frost's Ice wave? I don't see it used often, and the idea contradicts what you said about abilities that don't rely on chokepoints:

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

any area that is not a tightly-packed corridor, which are slowly but surely being phased out with each new update

.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

I only know of one person who has stated they actually like the puddle gameplay. Everyone else just wants to see it removed or changed.

I know several who state the exact opposite regarding puddle. I assume your "everyone else" here is people you've talked to since a broad generalization about the playerbase without a survey may be incorrect. Additionally, I'm not trying to police how other people play, just trying to add alternate, more rewarding options for people who don't like that specific play style.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Adding a lure would mean a player could sit in the puddle for hours and just have enemies run over to kill themselves without you doing anything whatsoever. That does not help Hydroid.

Undertow needs to be removed entirely or at the very least changed so that you don't sit in it anymore. I suggested a change in a thread a while back that combining Undertow with Tidal Surge to create a new ability where Hydroid sends out a wave in front of him

Until either a nullifier touches them or they run out of energy. Either way, it sounds like you're trying to police these players rather than expand on Hydroid's abilities here, although I admit combining the two abilities does seem like a good idea. The only reason I also didn't add it to my proposal is because it wouldn't be easily implementable (new icons, new ai, new 3rd skill) which is outside the scope of my thread. I know DE would likely sample ideas from multiple places, so again my goal is to make viable precursor ideas prior to a complete rework.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Whatever buffs you recieve after exiting it does not matter, you have simply not addressed the core issue with the puddle in the fact it is one of the worst abilities in-game in terms of player interactivity, mechanics and it actually being fun to use.

Again, subjective opinions and inaccuracies. Have your ever heard anyone complain about their character being more durable? Being able to survive being hit helps encourage active play. Additionally, even though I don't like just sitting around in puddle, I like jumping in and out of it when necessary and find it fun.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Hydroid's four is unreliable and useless in any area that is not a tightly-packed corridor, which are slowly but surely being phased out with each new update. Tentacles Swarm is from 2014 era Warframe, where the game was nothing but a load of tight corridors with palette swaps.

Its also another ability thats only marginally useful with its augment for loot.

I'll admit I do agree with this somewhat. My reasoning on my proposal was to not address the random nature of his 4, but rather to differentiate it from his 1. I figured his 1 would be a wide area, more reliable skill, where as his 4 would be a high risk, high reward skill; inflicting exponential true damage if an enemy is struck by a tentacle (able to kill liches if strategized well). It's fine if you don't agree with this approach, but again a completely new skill is not the goal of my post, quick precursors that can be tested prior to a complete rework are. 

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Unless you're you're talking about casting it in tight-corridors, then thats pretty much impossible since 95% of the enemies are ground based and tentacles are useless when they appear ten feet off the ground on a high wall.

I literally do this all the time, not sure how you think it's impossible. The AI for the tentacles seems good, it sounds like you're suffering more from not being able to really see the casting radius or choose clever locations to cast to.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

It's not good synergy as it should not take using all four abilities at once to kill a single group of enemies. Other frames have abilites that can stand on their own as well as help each other. Why would anyone want to use a wave that throws enemies across the room, turn into a puddle, cast tentacle swarm then kill the enemies, when you could just take a Mesa and just kill them all in a quarter of the time and at a quarter of the energy cost?

Or when they could just sit in a puddle and simply wait for the enemies to drown while eating lunch, because that is what the ability basically allows you to do. And adding a lure to that would only further increase that mindset/gameplay style.

It's ridiculous over-synergy thats what it is. There is a reason why Hydroid is mainly only used as a farm frame in resource hotspots.

It's good synergy when it works to kill enemies faster than Mesa would be able to. With the right build in higher level arbitration missions this combo is extremely effective and scales very well. With Mesa most players don't know how to not become sitting ducks, and if they do, then they're chaining her skills as well (shooting gallery + shatter shield to stay alive, peace maker to kill the enemies). But I'm not arguing the effectiveness of other frames here (if that were the case I'd say every frame is horrible compared to Saryn). My other skill propositions help increase his overall DPS, this skill is a defensive ability that adds utility. In that regard the skill stands alone and doesn't require synergy. The synergy is elective, you don't have to chain these skills to kill a single group of enemies, it's just fun to do it that way.

On 2020-01-10 at 12:56 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

He can only defeat Starchart level enemies right now if you're not constantly in his puddle att higher levels. The only ability that you can use in end-game is his puddle with it's scaling damage and that is a problem. He has zero real survivability in late game beyond that ability and if you don't use it, you won't be killing any enemies with his other ones anytime soon.

A rework will not make Hydroid any worse than his now, that is for sure. DE can sometimes do reworks right and Hydroid is one of the oldest frames in the game. He can only go up. A full rework is definitely the most common consensus for Hydroid in the Warframe community and for good reason.

I play higher levels with him all the time, using more than his puddle. I have friends who can as well. I'd play with you online if you want. All this is not to say he doesn't require work, just saying your statement is inaccurate. There's no way you can predict the future, things can always be worse and a (supposed) consensus is not always correct (if you argue this point, I'd tell you to just pick up a history book). I don't think laying out options is a bad thing, and likewise I'm not mad you've voiced your opinions on this thread, I'm just troubled by how much you've used absolutes, and how you're convinced your opinions represent the player base as a whole and not only yours (and maybe some of your friends).

Edited January 11, 2020 by Graive

[Graive]

21 hours ago, Jhura said:

Ok, suggestion for a replacement of his current 3, the puddle.

 

Instead of turning into a puddle he can cast a whirlpool that draws enemies under when they step on it, instead of him becoming one. This way can shoot into the whirlpool to damage the enemies inside and use it as a zoning tool. Just give it a reasonable duration and keep the scaling damage. 

 

But since that would remove his only defensive ability then I feel his two would have to be completely changed into a defensive. I think his one can work with a removal of the charge mechanic and fixes to the missiles getting stuck on geometry. His 4 needs better AI to seek enemies to be more useful. He needs a different passive as well, the current one just doesn't do anything useful at all.

Although I'm not really considering animation alterations I did think about this some initially too. Him casting his puddle and roaming. Maybe as he's roaming he'd recieve some kind of damage mitigation in exchange for mobility, or better yet have A LOT of inertia. 

I could see the other ability suggestions working, and have even included most in my proposal. His 4, I dunno, that would just need a lot of testing no matter what so the suggestions I've seen (even my own) don't really solve the issues we've noted.

[kapn655321]

23 hours ago, Jhura said:

turning into a puddle he can cast a whirlpool

The Undertow has an important role in his kit. If you're interested, I have a whirlpool design worked into my suggestions (1 page back)
OPs concepts are really minor tweaks to the existing kit to make the most of them, which I appreciate.

[(PSN)Gammatron-]

Hydroid is indeed a great frame. All the ideas are great, however my favourite idea is gaining damge resistance from his 2 .. and The ramp-Up True damage of tentacles makes so much sense and will give them scalability.

 

[Graive]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Gammatron- said:

Hydroid is indeed a great frame. All the ideas are great, however my favourite idea is gaining damge resistance from his 2 .. and The ramp-Up True damage of tentacles makes so much sense and will give them scalability.

That's great to hear and thank you for writing this. You've helped me think a little more regarding his 4. On his 4 I've been a little concerned with it being able to hit enemies after the damage has ramped up. A suggestion from other people I got was to make 1 final blast of true damage when the skill dissipates. I think having that damage be based on the final amount of damage the tentacles dealt would be amazing (kind of similar to Mag's magnetize), may encourage some interesting builds, and would make it a bit more reliable. I've added this idea to the main topic.

[Graive]

After seeing several opinions regarding it, I've been thinking about Hydroid's tempest barrage, how it currently targets, and methods to make it more consistent. It's extremely unclear to me if the targetting is AI based (actually initially targeting enemies within the radius circle) or if its' blasts are procedurally generated within the circle (so non-AI. Selecting a point in the circle then branching out x meters from there, or even just set points within the circle multiplied by Hydroid's range). Without knowing this it's hard to make it better, but there are 2 non-AI related solutions I can think of.

1- increasing the radius (greatly) and sheer number of blasts. This is what I proposed, but if the targetting is set points within the circle new locations would need to be added as well. This seems like the most straightforward solution to me, but it can be a mixed bag if the targetting is AI based.

2- changing the number and shape of each blast. Right now they're circles, but one solution would be to change them to rectangles whose length spans the full length of the casting circle, and whose width would be equal to whatever the current individual blast circle diameter is. This would greatly increase the area of each blast, far more than increasing the circle radius would. This new shape would only be used to indicate which enemies take damage, and an animation change isn't really necessary. It's a hard concept to explain in words but if this makes sense to anyone out there, please let me know.

I'm debating proposing 2 for tempest barrage, since I'm pretty sure it'd be far more consistent, but I just need a better/simpler way to explain the idea.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Graive

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

The thing is, this is a viable, and often implemented way to address these kind of problems

That depends entirely upon the context and cirumstances of the frame and it definitely would not work for Hydroid, whose design was built around what the game used to be in 2014. Hydroid is not a frame that can be fixed with simple stat tweaks. Like I said, this does not fix his core problems.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

One example is Nezha. He was mostly adjustment to numbers and status effects.

This is a false equivalency. There is a huge difference betweenn Nezha and Hydroid. For one major thing, their powers are completely different and are meant to be used in a different way. Nezha's powers never relied upon the environment or enemy AI to get the job done and are not RNG based. That is why that simple stat tweaks were enough to make him better.

Hydroid is a completely different story. Half of his powers rely heavily upon the environment as well as enemy AI and the other half are useless and boring.

Comparing Nezha and Hydroid is like comparing oranges to sea urchins. Just because simple quality of life tweaks made the former better, does not mean it will work for the latter. New abilities do need to be introduced when the old ones are outdated and not very useful in the modern game.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

I know several who state the exact opposite regarding puddle. I assume your "everyone else" here is people you've talked to since a broad generalization about the playerbase without a survey may be incorrect.

Name these individuals then, because I already know of one and only one who shares similar opinions to you.

No, "everyone" denotes all of the people I have seen in other Hydroid rework threads over the years as well as people on Reddit, YouTube, general chats in-game. In all of the Hydroid threads, 99% of people want the puddle removed. There are not many at all who like the puddle gameplay and why would they. Hydroid is known through the community for being a boring and inefficient frame to play in normal gameplay.

These numbers are also supported by the Warframe usage chart, which puts Hydroid in the least used frames category.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

I tested in the simulacrum

The Barrages do collide with walls in general gameplay. It's a problem that makes the ability a lot less useful than it could be.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

I like the fact that he can move quickly, knockdown enemies, or avoid danger if needed with this ability.

If avoiding danger is what you're about then just sit in your puddle.

Tidal Surge's knockdown is also pretty much useless as it drags enemies with you, which means you won't be avoiding danger that much since the enemies were thrown against the wall you just face-planted and are now right next to you. Unless you're in massive open areas, where the enemies are likely to be spread out anyway, then it won't help. In both corridors and open world this ability is useless, which is ironic because it's clearly an ability designed to work in corridors only.

He can move quickly but not nearly as quickly as some other frames, such as Volt, Gauss or Wukong. He is inferior to all three and they also offer aditional benefits with their damage avoidance and speed. They also feel far less clunky. Like I said, Tidal Surge is Excalibur's old Slash Dash in everything but name.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

I don't see it used often, and the idea contradicts what you said about abilities that don't rely on chokepoints:

How exactly? Ice Wave is not a choke point ability and neither is what I am suggesting. Ice Wave can be used out in the open world and it functions perfectly fine as its AOE. As would this new version of Surge. If it was just a small wave that went in a straight line and didn't cover a large area, then you'd have a point.

I think you're reaching a bit here.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

Additionally, I'm not trying to police how other people play, just trying to add alternate, more rewarding options for people who don't like that specific play style.

So basically you want to have your cake and eat it as well. I want Hydroid to be better and the popular consensus is that in order to make him better, he needs to be reworked.

And so what exactly if the popular view goes against the 1% who love AFK Hydroid as he is right now? You cannot please everyone and trying to do so is the physical embodiment of a pointless excercise. Pleasing everyone means that Hydroid will never move on anywhere. Your "alternative" solution adds nothing new and just bolsters the AFK playstyle of Hydroid. I honestly don't know how you can't see that adding a lure to Undertow will just make his situation worse.

By the way; you do know that DE and other developers do actually police how people play themselves right? It's a neccessary part of the gaming industry in order to stop players from exploiting others and the game itself. AFK Hydroid does that at the moment with his power set, which allows you to do the barest minimum for maximum reward. I saw this sort of defence when the original Mesa Peacemaker was going to be nerfed and it didn't hold up then either.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

Until either a nullifier touches them or they run out of energy.

1. Nullifiers are a cop-out excuse one uses when there is no real defence for a bad warframe. A Nullys entire purpose is to cancel out all frame abilities, not just one. Every Warframe because useless in the presence of a Nully, but that doesn't suddenly mean bad frames can be excused.

2. If you just sit there and do not move, it takes a long time to run out of energy in Undertow, even without high efficiency. Also, as some other person pointed out once, you can simply leave the puddle and collect the energy that has accumilated on top of you from drowned enemies and then pop back in. This takes two seconds and then you're sorterd. So energy is not an issue either.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

rather than expand on Hydroid's abilities here

Expanding on Hydroid's abilities is exactly what I am suggesting by saying he should be heavily reworked. His current set holds him back and barely scraps the surface of what the power of water manipulation can do in a game like this. Turning into a puddle is not the pinnacle of being a water elemental.

By removing and/or heavily reworking some of his abilities so that they are combined with others, this leaves space for new interesting and creative powers to be introduced, of which there are plenty. Considering we're talking about the element of water, the possibilites for a frame that can control are huge. Keeping his set exactly how it is now just means he will not move anywhere and continue being the butt of all jokes and a niche farming frame.

Just a side question; Do you honestly believe that if Hydroid did not have his Pilfering Swarm augment, that he would still be in the same level as he was in the usage chart?

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

Have your ever heard anyone complain about their character being more durable?

Asking questions like this just shows you're being intellectually disingenuous and not really interested in talking honestly about the subject.

You ask this as if we're talking about the concept of durability as a whole and not the specific way that durability is handled. Instead of talking in fallacies, why don't you talk about the way Hydroid survives. People obviously like being able to survive, but that doesn't mean they want to do so by sitting passively in a puddle.

Being durable does not mean you have to sacrifice the majority of the fun within a game in order to survive longer as the many tank frames in the game will show. Ask any player from any game if they'd like to be able to avoid damage but at the cost of 90% of the gameplay and they'll say no. Hydroid is also not technically durable as that is defined as being able to withstand damage. Hydroid straight up avoids damage while in his puddle and he cannot withstand any damage from moderately high enemies as he has no real durability like damage reduction or high amounts of armour or health. So the correct version of your question is;

"Have your ever heard anyone complain about their character being invincible?

And again the answer to that question in the context of Hydroid is yes. Unlike Limbo, Hydroid's invincibility is boring and poorly designed.

It is not subjective that sitting a slow moving puddle waiting for enemies to passively die around you with zero real input, is not fun. That's one of the reasons the AFK playstyle even exists, because its an easy option that just allows you to sit there and do nothing.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

Being able to survive being hit helps encourage active play.

Again, you speak as if we're talking about Inaros. Hydroid cannot survive being hit, at all. That is why he needs to stay in his puddle at higher levels. Simply ignoring all damage does not mean you're actively surviving hits, because you're technically not getting hit at all.

And Hydroid's damage avoidance definitely does not encourage active play. You're being intellecutally dishonest again here.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

My reasoning on my proposal was to not address the random nature of his 4,

And that is exactly the reason why your changes make no real differences to the core problems with Hydroid. You do not address what needs to be addressed and instead just try and distract from the problem by adding more stats. RNG is one of the two major problems with Hydroid.

As a wise man once said; "You can dress up a turd as much as you like, but at the end of the day, it's still a turd."

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

I literally do this all the time, not sure how you think it's impossible.

Because it is. Like I said, 95% of the enemies are ground based and it is literally impossible for tentacles that appear high up on walls and ceilings to catch ground enemies unless you're in a tight corridor. If you do it all the time, then please upload continious stream footage of you playing as Hydroid regularly catching enemies. Anecodotal singular clips do not count.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

it sounds like you're suffering more from not being able to really see the casting radius or choose clever locations to cast to.

"You just don't know how to play properly". Are you seriously going there?

For one thing you'd have to be blind to not see the casting radius and secondly, the ability is once again RNG based and you have very little choice over where a lot of the tentacles appear as they either appear under enemies, which you again have no direct control over, or in random places. So even if you snag an enemy once, there is no 100% certainty that you'll get one again, unlike other abilites.

One of the major points of this conversation has been about how you don't truly have control over some of Hydroid's abilities as they are RNG and environmentally based.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

It's good synergy when it works to kill enemies faster than Mesa would be able to.

Again, you have to use all of his abilities in order to do a job that can be done better and in a more fast way than most other frames in general gameplay. Hydroids puddle damage can scale but without the Corroding Barrage augment, you will once again be waiting there even longer than you already will be if you were using a Mesa.

There is a reason why Mesa is one of the top used frames right now and Hydroid is not, despite his puddle scaling. She is more fun, does not need to use all of her abilities to kill a small group of enemies, does not need to relyo n enemy AI, does not have RNG abilities whose usefulness is dictated by the environment, does not slow the gameplay down to a grinding halt and in general gameplay, kills a lot quicker than Hydroid.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

With the right build in higher level arbitration missions this combo is extremely effective and scales very well.

Its not as effective or as efficient as other frames in terms of general gameplay. Again, just because he has scaling damage with his puddle does not mean he is a good frame. If the notions of scaling and invulnerability was the sole thing that made a frame good, Hydroid would be up there in the top ten most played frames list, but he's not.

Other frames will always be superior to Hydroid because they are more efficient in their killing and do not have to sacrifice 90% of the gameplay in order to do so.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

My other skill propositions help increase his overall DPS, this skill is a defensive ability that adds utility.

Your propositions do not address Hydroids main problems. I don't know how many times I can say "Stats are not the main problem" before the penny drops. Undertow is great if you just want to be invulnerable, but not great for general gamplay as it is slow, boring and goes against the flow of the game. Limbo is a much better option if you want to be invulnerable as he doesn't require you to effectively stop playing the game.

Your proposed utility would only further increase AFK gameplay. I mean adding a lure? Honestly.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

I play higher levels with him all the time, using more than his puddle. I have friends who can as well.

I never said you don't use other abilities. I said that in higher levels you will mostly be inside a puddle while using his other abilities, as that is the only way he can realistically survive and kill enemies in high level content.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

All this is not to say he doesn't require work, just saying your statement is inaccurate.

My statement was in regards to Hydroid needing to be in a puddle 90% of the time in high level content in order to both survive and kill enemies. You said nothing that contradicted that and instead acted like I said you only use the puddle and thats it. I said if you use his other abilities without the puddle in high level content, you won't be killing enemies. Try killing level 120 Heavy Gunners with Corroding Barrage on its own.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

things can always be worse

How? Tell me a realistic way that Hydroid could be made worse than his current state without it being directly done on purpose.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

a (supposed) consensus is not always correct (if you argue this point, I'd tell you to just pick up a history book)

Again you use false equivalency. Comparing a consensus on whether a gameplay aspect in a video game is bad to histroically significant consensus is utterly intellectually dishonest and completely irrelevant. Context matters. This just shows how far you're reaching.

Hydroid simply does not perform well in the game and is not used by the majority of players outside of dedicated farming. That is a fact. The consesnus is backed up by data;

(For Warframe that have Primes, only the Prime usage stats count as the vanilla frames usage stats are lower than everything since naturally no one uses them once the Prime is out)

In this chart you can very clearly see that Hydroid Prime is one of the least used frames in the game. Banshee Prime even beats him out in usage. Banshee. Prime. And he's only at the stat he is because of his Pilfering Swarm augment. Without that, I have no doubt he would be even lower.

That evidence that shows the consensus is correct.

On 2020-01-10 at 4:03 PM, Graive said:

I'm just troubled by how much you've used absolutes, and how you're convinced your opinions represent the player base as a whole and not only yours (and maybe some of your friends).

I'm convinced because that is what the data and yes, everyone is saying about Hydroid. This is an opinion shared by the majority. That is a fact.

I'm sorry to say but you really haven't put forward a good argument here. You've used a lot of fallacies, taken a lot of things out of in-game context and have mainly just avoided talking about Hydroid and his problems specifically and more about the concepts of durability and consensus.

Edited January 16, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[Graive]

15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I'm sorry to say but you really haven't put forward a good argument here. You've used a lot of fallacies, taken a lot of things out of in-game context and have mainly just avoided talking about Hydroid and his problems specifically and more about the concepts of durability and consensus.

I'm keeping this reply short as it seems we'll keep disagreeing. None of your arguments have dissuaded me of my opinions and I feel the same is likely true for you.

I'm a little annoyed you've accused me of not taking your post seriously. Last time I checked I replied point by point on everything you wrote. If I dismissed your points, I simply wouldn't have replied. I'm trying to assume your best intent, please assume the same for me.

In general, I feel our arguments are simple:

I feel Hydroid can be improved through several options of which DE will ultimately decide. One option that can be used is through quick, simple changes to non-environmental/mission reliant variables.

You feel Hydroid can only be improved through a rework that introduces new skills. The player base consensus is that his current kit is ineffective and unfun.

There is only one part I disagree with in your argument, the "only" part. I feel DE being the deciding factor from my argument is a fact. I think the arguments regarding consensus and ability usage can easily be determined by DE, consequently I plan to not waste any more time arguing on ability effectiveness.

DE has the stats and generally try to listen to player opinion. Is Hydroid unpopular, yes. Does his kit need changing, yes. I just don't believe this can ONLY be done through a rework requiring multiple new skills. Can a new skill be a solution, sure. Is that what I'm writing about in my post, no. Now, I can take another hour going through each line you wrote asserting it as incorrect or we can agree to disagree and you can make your own post, outlining Hydroid's shortfalls, and giving possible solutions to how they can be addressed.

The only thing I want to reply directly to in your post is how corroding barrage works. I was not insinuating the fault was only on you for not being able to target enemies (if it sound like that I sincerely apologize). I was saying the dashed projectiles that fall from the air are only animations. I tested this by simply casting the skill behind a pillar in the simulacrum. The projectile animation showed through the pillar and cast the explosion on the ground (anyone reading this doesn’t have to take my word for it, go test it yourself). This is not to say the skill is unpredictable, even I'm unsure how it targets exactly (I clarified this in 1 or 2 other comments in this post). Just saying the mechanism you described was incorrect, not the results of this mechanism.

I strongly suggest you make your own post with your suggestions rather than saying how other people’s ideas are faulty, we're both beating a dead horse here and it's going nowhere. Ultimately the decision doesn't fall on you alone and it's much more productive to advertise your opinion to the masses in a separate post, consequently possibly gaining developer support.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Graive
fixed crazy phone spacing

[Graive]

Still thinking about ways to address barrages rng-ness a little more. I think giving a concrete number for the radius and number of missiles would be a good start. Also, considering some kind of cooldown for puddle or drawback to puddle (maybe additional energy drain after a set tiime?). I don't really care if someone sits in puddle until they die to an eventually nullifier, but I am concerned about the possible exploitation of my tentacle storm suggestions. I can see people sitting in puddle casting tentacle storm repeatedly since the damage would scale.

[kapn655321]

1 hour ago, Graive said:

Still thinking about ways to address barrages rng-ness a little more.

If I may..
More arched high over the shoulder, than the traditional 'falling out of the ceiling' in this case.

Volleys of Grapeshot are (divided across/)aimed directly at enemies (or target area).

Projectiles fall at erratic intervals worth 20% value per second.
Projectile count is additive per stack. (14/28/42)
Repeated casts within 5s lose 30% Accuracy.
(Does knockdown as it does currently)s

Damage                                                                      100 tie to power strength each % =1
Projectiles                         14 x Power Strength + Radius Divided across Targets (or Area).
Multishot                                                                  tie to power strength where 100% is +0, 200% = +100%
"Shattering Impact"                                                 tie to power strength, roughly +1.0 per 30% strength above 0%
(Shattering Impact value effects Eidolons.)

Environmental strikes have AoE as it is now; strikes against enemies have +2 Punch Through instead of AoE.
Side note: fired from a ghost ship that springs up behind you and unloads it's cannons.. someone told me if that wasn't part of this move in the future, they'd be disappointed, so there's that for their sake.

From the build ideas I posted, under Pirate Mode: Tempest Barrage (It's powerful, since it's intended to be part of an ult toggle, but it's a ballpark idea of how it was addressed there. 14 projectiles split among all enemy targets at random intervals, or randomly around the environment if there are no enemies.) I'm still of the mind that Tempest Barrage could have a dynamic range of effect (either pattering slippery rain that obscures sight/sound,) or a downpour of crushing grapeshot. None the less, I felt this a very worthy way.

Specific to your interests, solves the RNG, without removing the feel of variable outcomes.

Edited January 18, 2020 by kapn655321

[Graive]

11 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

If I may..
More arched high over the shoulder, than the traditional 'falling out of the ceiling' in this case.

Volleys of Grapeshot are (divided across/)aimed directly at enemies (or target area).

Projectiles fall at erratic intervals worth 20% value per second.
Projectile count is additive per stack. (14/28/42)
Repeated casts within 5s lose 30% Accuracy.
(Does knockdown as it does currently)s

Damage                                                                      100 tie to power strength each % =1
Projectiles                         14 x Power Strength + Radius Divided across Targets (or Area).
Multishot                                                                  tie to power strength where 100% is +0, 200% = +100%
"Shattering Impact"                                                 tie to power strength, roughly +1.0 per 30% strength above 0%
(Shattering Impact value effects Eidolons.)

Environmental strikes have AoE as it is now; strikes against enemies have +2 Punch Through instead of AoE.
Side note: fired from a ghost ship that springs up behind you and unloads it's cannons.. someone told me if that wasn't part of this move in the future, they'd be disappointed, so there's that for their sake.

From the build ideas I posted, under Pirate Mode: Tempest Barrage (It's powerful, since it's intended to be part of an ult toggle, but it's a ballpark idea of how it was addressed there. 14 projectiles split among all enemy targets at random intervals, or randomly around the environment if there are no enemies.) I'm still of the mind that Tempest Barrage could have a dynamic range of effect (either pattering slippery rain that obscures sight/sound,) or a downpour of crushing grapeshot. None the less, I felt this a very worthy way.

Specific to your interests, solves the RNG, without removing the feel of variable outcomes.

You definitely may! I appreciate the constructive feedback. I think there are 3 main parts to the barrage problem:

1 the targeting of enemies within the cast circle

2 the location explosions occur when enemies aren't within the circle and

3 the speed at which armor is reduced when the augment is equipped

Problem 1 is AI related, it's taking the location of enemies within the mission, whereas problem 2 is non-AI, where explosions are set down randomly. I think your suggestions successfully address problem 1. Elements that I specifically like are: that it specifies the number of projectiles are power strength dependent, that those projectiles are divided among enemies not simply within the circle, and how it's using shattering impact. I think I understand why you're making shattering impact dependent on power strength, but feel something scaling on the enemy level or armor amount may be more beneficial (I recall corroding barrage already does something similar to this since its' armor reduction is percentile based, but I'd need to double check). I'm assuming multishot refers to the number of subhits each projectile issues? If so I like this suggestion too. I know I've said I don't want to submit AI suggestions, but seeing as how I've made 1 suggestion before (my proposed damage buff based on absorption of incoming damage) I'd very much like to update with what you'd suggested here. Honestly, this is gold.

With problem 2 the ability shouldn't set random sections within the circle where shots occur. Shot location should be predictable and currently it's not. This has been the part of the problem I've been struggling to find good solutions to. An easy AI related fix would be to just make these shots act as mines, and target the next enemy in the circle. Non-AI fixes are much more daunting to come up with tho...

Problem 3 is an annoying and easily solve-able problem. For whatever reason they made the number of barrages per second a static 4; instead of 16 shots occurring in 1 second they have it set to increase duration of the ability, 16 shots in 4 seconds. On paper it makes sense, in practice it's far too slow especially when the problem is increased by poor targeting. They need to make the number scale.

I'm going to think about problem 2 more but I think with the help of your post problem 1 and 3 are solved. I'll update the main post when I've thought it out some more.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Graive

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

On 2019-12-28 at 1:02 PM, Graive said:

I wanted to make some change suggestions that I figure would be easy to implement (by reusing former code with very limited animation or AI changes) on DEs part. I didn't want to call this a rework because I love Hydroid and want him to still keep his Hydroid-y feel while making sure players could do more than puddle to stay safe.The goal was to speed up his game-play a little by reducing time to kill, and add overall earned viability. 

 

HALF ALL CAST TIMES AND REMOVE CHARGE MECHANICS. Change his passive, and keep the same abilities, adding additional effects.

-Passive - A fluid being, if Hydroid's Shields and health drop to 0 in less than 1 second, or if Hydroid's health drops to 0 while his shields are above 0 in less than 1 second, Hydroid (becomes water and) receives an invulnerability period of 1.5 seconds. *For additional passive ideas and reasoning, see page 2 of post.

1 - 30% more barrage instances with better/larger radius scaling based on power range. Make his current augment innate. His new augment, asphyxiating barrage, doubles the water missiles, and gives the party a gas buff when held (like all the other elemental based warframes). Alternatively, make his new augment double the water missiles, and enemies hit by a missile have a 50% chance to drop a health orb on death.
2 - Increase Tidal Surge maneuverability (similar to Revenant's Reave). Additionally, Tidal Surge now grants a stackable buff based on # of enemies hit (20% damage resistance up to 90%), similar stacking mechanic to Rhino's Ironclad Charge. The timer scales on duration (20s base). The timer refreshes when new enemies are hit with Tidal Surge but the buff % resets only after the timer has expired. Optional: add to his current augment. A copy paste of Ember's Immolated Radiance, granting allies 50% current damage resistance and wiping ally status effect.
3 - Puddle now attracts enemies, but does not alert them (similar to Ivara's noise arrow). Additionally, pulling enemies into puddle with Hydroid's tendril uses an auto fire rather than the current semi-auto fire. Additionally, puddle submerges your companion. Similar to Harrow's Covenant, Hydroid and his companion receive three seconds of invincibility upon exiting puddle, after which Hydroid receives two buffs that scale dependent on damage absorbed while invincible and power strength (1.50% per 100 damage points prevented) : a Health regen buff based on enemy kills (5% of health per kill at base up to a maximum of 40%) and Critical damage buff (25% critical damage at base up to a maximum of 200%). These buffs have a timer which is dependent on Duration (15s base).  Optional: Make his augment also regen health on enemy kill and add his critical damage buff for allies and companions.
4 -  Change magnetic damage dealt to true damage. Damage dealt by tentacles now scales with duration and power, increasing their strength by 15% every second they are active. A final burst of true damage (based on the final amount of damage the tentacles were inflicting) is created when the ability finishes. The blast radius is 5-15m and scales with range (think similar to Mag's Magnetize ability). Damage inflicted on enemies while held by tentacles is doubled.

Be nice if had a bonus/secret passive that allows him to swim in the water. Maybe while using his undertow and tidal wave abilities. But a watery frame not being able to go into the water just seems weird. Similar to revenant walking in radiated water. Or Gauss Mach rushing across it.