Lack of good AOE abilties & good armor

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

I've noticed a lot of warframes lack a good AOE ability for high level play and the ones that do are usually at the top of the pile that have good scaling and the only ones that comes to mind would be saryn & mesa.  I play a pretty good amount of warframes but i notice when i play with groups a severe lack of originality with mostly saryn being used and instead of nerf saryn why not beef up other warframes that have established AOE abilities ?. 

some of my favorites besides saryn are frost,mag,nova, rhino,volt, oberon ect but these all have some form of scaling issue that need some augment mod to make it work better when the augments would just as well be incorporated into the ability itself and lower the ability strength requirements for some warframes to strip/remove/reduce armor.  one example of this could be mag since its polorize can remove armor with high power strength but it needs high duration for this abilities range so modding space is iffy at best to get high strength to affect enemy armor.

another thing i have an issue with is why the bad armor numbers for most warframes they go from anywhere from 50-150. 150 isn't too bad but 50 & 65 is just terrible starting armor for any warframe and the ones have this much are really squishy caster warframes that don't really get enough love as it is. what some caster warframes get is bad reworks or non at all and are stuck as a utility frame focusing around one ability.  just a couple examples of these issues is nekros with 65 armor and has no offensive attacks really and if you call soul punch a damaging attack at all it has no real damage same for terrify at this point in time terrify is more of the useless side. now if it did damage of some kind for every enemy running in fear would be a new AOE with good scaling damage would make this interesting.

suggested frames that need reworks

nekros soul punch & terrify to something more damaging 

mag armor stripping change required strength to be duration, crush animation needs to be faster and wider

saryn remove scaling spore damage and change to shooting spores for damage

frost first two abilities need an update,

 

TLDR:

buff warframes with AOE abilities,

buff base armor of warframes,

buff armor stripping/removal/reduction from abilities

,incorporate augments into warframe abilities.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

saryn remove scaling spore damage and change to shooting spores for damage

HA!

[(PSN)thegarada]

I think there are enough WF with AOE abilities. AOE abilities are not meant to one shot level 100 mobs. Frames armor goes into a bigger discussion about frames survivability. It is no secret, some frames can maintain almost 2 order of magnitude survivability over others. Adding a bit of armor would not solve that. 

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I think there are enough WF with AOE abilities. AOE abilities are not meant to one shot level 100 mobs. Frames armor goes into a bigger discussion about frames survivability. It is no secret, some frames can maintain almost 2 order of magnitude survivability over others. Adding a bit of armor would not solve that. 

it won't solve it however having low armor on a warframe really sucks being just about one shot in high level missions.

this is also why i mentioned improving abilities to remove armor from enemies so i'm not just using my guns to strip armor and there are other sources that have a wider range to do this if people would speak up about improving abilities of existing warframes that can do this. having better methods on removing armor/shields means easier to kill not really one shotting since the enemies can still be a threat to you even if armor is removed.  hell just throwing it out there but my kavat with sharpened claws mod removed my liches armor completely yesterday.

I can say i've probably spent more time playing the older frames then the newer ones.  such as i'd take my frost prime for a defense over my gara since it seems like its harder to pop a bubble then it is to break parts of a glass wall.

i kinda think DE is just churning out warframes and not looking at the big picture in end game where these new warframes could fit in a group. and ability synergy could be improved and scaling.

guass & grendel are two examples of warframes that i don't know if i'd see them being used in any major end game stuff like arby's sorties kuva related missions

 

[(PSN)thegarada]

1 minute ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

it won't solve it however having low armor on a warframe really sucks being just about one shot in high level missions.

this is also why i mentioned improving abilities to remove armor from enemies so i'm not just using my guns to strip armor and there are other sources that have a wider range to do this if people would speak up about improving abilities of existing warframes that can do this. having better methods on removing armor/shields means easier to kill not really one shotting since the enemies can still be a threat to you even if armor is removed.  hell just throwing it out there but my kavat with sharpened claws mod removed my liches armor completely yesterday.

I can say i've probably spent more time playing the older frames then the newer ones.  such as i'd take my frost prime for a defense over my gara since it seems like its harder to pop a bubble then it is to break parts of a glass wall.

i kinda think DE is just churning out warframes and not looking at the big picture in end game where these new warframes could fit in a group. and ability synergy could be improved and scaling.

guass & grendel are two examples of warframes that i don't know if i'd see them being used in any major end game stuff like arby's sorties kuva related missions

 

Armor is not the only survivability tool. There are frames that rely on skills, like Trinity, Gauss, Ember, among others. The issue is when the frame has neither armor nor skills to cut down damage. These frames mostly rely on CC skills and these are unreliable, and do not work in many situations at all. Making these frames pretty niche. 

Armor scaling is surely an issue. But this is one of these issues which you solve by reducing the scaling versus increasing the armor strip tools quantity and quality. This seems to be the direction DE is going to do as well.

Unrelated, I cannot find much use for Grendal. He is a giant ball of bluh. Gauss on the other hand is currently hands down the best melee frame except against infested, due to energy drain (and distribution missions). He has near immunity to damage, energy gain from receiving the blocked damage, CC immunity, 100% melee damage and 200% attack speed (with the right mods). If you are trying to push as high as you can in a none infested survival, probably the best frame. 

[(XBOX)DarkForceLegend]

The AOE abilities that Warframes are for the most part fine... I agree that they should not be one shot abilities. More like, help soften then up for the wrecking crew. As for armor... You just have to get creative. If your trying to make a tank out of a Warframe that wasn't intended to really be a tank, then you have to be creative. It takes work...

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

well how would you guys improve what i've been talking about ? i honestly think this stuff can be improved to scale and such i don't see why only certain warframes are end game but others aren't.

[hooperinius]

Pretty much every warframe is "endgame" if your definition is kuva floods or the sorties, if you are talking the endless missions where enemies scale to 200+ if you wait long enough then some of them will obviously outclass others.

[(XBOX)DarkForceLegend]

I'll be honest, I didn't read your entire post... shame on me, but Nekros!? He is probably in at least the top 10 most tanky frames if you build him right. Dare I say, I feel your struggling with a lack of knowledge of what's possible. My advice to you would be find a frame you like the most and work on that one frame. When you work on a frame and take it to a point that your happy with the results, it helps clarify what's possible and will help you down the road when you move on to other frames.

While your working on a frame and you come to a crossroad of "hey, my frame needs more energy" then go look it up in the Warframe wiki for all the different ways to manage energy. Hell, just type in energy into the search and see what pops up. The point is, you are you. While we all can give suggestions and such, but in the end it has to be you that creates your own builds. That's why copying builds from others is hit or miss. What works for one person may not work for another.

Hope this helps, most of all have fun!

[(PSN)thegarada]

1 hour ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

well how would you guys improve what i've been talking about ? i honestly think this stuff can be improved to scale and such i don't see why only certain warframes are end game but others aren't.

I think either shields need to increase or a damage reduction mod that decreases damage to shields. This way frames that are shield dependent have better chance to survive.

Edited January 22, 2020 by (PS4)thegarada

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)DarkForceLegend said:

I'll be honest, I didn't read your entire post... shame on me, but Nekros!? He is probably in at least the top 10 most tanky frames if you build him right. Dare I say, I feel your struggling with a lack of knowledge of what's possible. My advice to you would be find a frame you like the most and work on that one frame. When you work on a frame and take it to a point that your happy with the results, it helps clarify what's possible and will help you down the road when you move on to other frames.

While your working on a frame and you come to a crossroad of "hey, my frame needs more energy" then go look it up in the Warframe wiki for all the different ways to manage energy. Hell, just type in energy into the search and see what pops up. The point is, you are you. While we all can give suggestions and such, but in the end it has to be you that creates your own builds. That's why copying builds from others is hit or miss. What works for one person may not work for another.

Hope this helps, most of all have fun!

well the fact that i'm MR28 and i've been playing on PS4 since 2014 says something lol.

i've put a lot of effort into what is possible to do with some frames but i still feel like there should be improvements to old frames or make new ones with certain focus points. 

does DE ever intend to "Balance" this game at all or fix armor scaling because no matter what either we are overpowered or the enemies are.

DE could do something about abilities that drain energy overtime and more so to ones that drain it harder and faster when active longer since these are the types of frames that may not last long on endless missions. 

[(XBOX)DarkForceLegend]

1 minute ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

well the fact that i'm MR28 and i've been playing on PS4 since 2014 says something lol.

i've put a lot of effort into what is possible to do with some frames but i still feel like there should be improvements to old frames or make new ones with certain focus points. 

does DE ever intend to "Balance" this game at all or fix armor scaling because no matter what either we are overpowered or the enemies are.

DE could do something about abilities that drain energy overtime and more so to ones that drain it harder and faster when active longer since these are the types of frames that may not last long on endless missions. 

Fair enough...

I do know in the last devstream that they talked about armor. Although it seemed it was directed more towards enemy armor, but it could be a potential rework across the board. 

I agree that alot of the older frames could in fact use some touch ups. I like to call it the need to modernize due to all the new stuff they have learned over the years. The new warframes have synergies with in their kits that make them feel whole. Older frames, while they do still have their place, that shean is gone and out dated in a lot of regards.

I don't know if I quite understand what your saying about the energy problem. I am aware that if your in a long endless mission that some abilities can become worthless because of leeches and the like. Me personally, I tend to stay away from frames that have channeling abilities or have a high energy demand when fighting certain factions. It's tough to go against corpus if your relying on abilities for survival being that you could get ripped out at any time if your not careful.

Enjoy!

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

45 minutes ago, (XB1)DarkForceLegend said:

Fair enough...

I do know in the last devstream that they talked about armor. Although it seemed it was directed more towards enemy armor, but it could be a potential rework across the board. 

I agree that alot of the older frames could in fact use some touch ups. I like to call it the need to modernize due to all the new stuff they have learned over the years. The new warframes have synergies with in their kits that make them feel whole. Older frames, while they do still have their place, that shean is gone and out dated in a lot of regards.

I don't know if I quite understand what your saying about the energy problem. I am aware that if your in a long endless mission that some abilities can become worthless because of leeches and the like. Me personally, I tend to stay away from frames that have channeling abilities or have a high energy demand when fighting certain factions. It's tough to go against corpus if your relying on abilities for survival being that you could get ripped out at any time if your not careful.

Enjoy!

energy problem to me is the channeling and overall cost of abilities. we have a good amount of duration mods to pick from but not many mods like streamline to reduce cost aside from fleeting expertise which is kinda terrible if your frame needs duration and no other mods i've seen reduce cost besides those two. i suppose i just come across too many magnetic proc's since i run into energy problems often enough for this to even come up as part of my topic lol.

[(XBOX)DarkForceLegend]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

energy problem to me is the channeling and overall cost of abilities. we have a good amount of duration mods to pick from but not many mods like streamline to reduce cost aside from fleeting expertise which is kinda terrible if your frame needs duration and no other mods i've seen reduce cost besides those two. i suppose i just come across too many magnetic proc's since i run into energy problems often enough for this to even come up as part of my topic lol.

Well, I did this crazy build with my Ivara where I forgone flow and streamline in favor of Fleeting Expertise and Rage of all things. I gave her a bit of a buffer to help give time to go invisible if need be. Anyway, it leans more into using her sleep arrows for CC but could also use invis arrows if I need to go for a stop and go motion. Effectively her arrows are 10 to cast and prowl drain is at 0.42 I think... which can leave me in prowl for more than enough time to recover from whatever. The build is essentially meant for general play.

I think it all depends on the frame... there are alot of interesting ways you can manipulate energy management given the options we already have. I'd love a prime streamline, but finding creative ways to obtain energy on a chaotic battle field can be amusing at times, even better when it all goes to plan.

[Hellmaker2004]

8 hours ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

I've noticed a lot of warframes lack a good AOE ability for high level play and the ones that do are usually at the top of the pile that have good scaling and the only ones that comes to mind would be saryn & mesa.

Then i would recommend you try some other Frames out.

There are plenty of crazy frames out there with both more survivability, or with about the same. All of them have some advantage or disadvantage compared to the next or as you would expect since each frame are kinda "unique".

Ember is a good competitor, got great survival got decent damage and even better at striping armor. Her downside is LoS restriction and her survival is based on a ability forcing you to be good or suffer the consequences, a bit energy hungry but can be overcome with a good build.

Garuda is another competitor, She got around the same survival as Saryn, her survival toolkit is better in some places and worse in other. Her damage is way way way higher done in burst, scales faster and in a better way. Her disadvantages is a longer buildup and limited FoV on her AoE(This is not limited by walls).

Khora is also another great competitor, she got almost the same armor as Saryn. Saryn P with 300 vs Khora 275, and this could change once we get Khora P. She deals way way more damage and require a fair bit of mission time before she becomes irrelevant She have a Pet Kavat that can aid her or allies with healing or disrupt enemies, She also provide great crowd control.
Downside is that she is a bit more immobile due to her preferably want to use her Strangledome to help pull in more enemies for the AoE, but can still work ok AoE without it. Requires you to know how to build her as it can litterary make or break if the weapon will one shot level 150+ mobs or struggle with 50+ mobs. Does not scale so once she does fall off damage wise there will not be a lot more to do this will however happen way later than any current "endgame".

Gara is a weird mix but i still think she should have a honorably mentioned. Got way more survival, can share the survival with teammates got way way way more damage, scales way way way faster and can provide some crowd control. Her disadvantages is the buff is annoying to keep active on teammates, her damage has a low AoE radius unless you do share in on teammates and even then is kinda mediocre.


These are the frames that simply pop up in my head when you ask for Frames with decent survival and great AoE i have no doubt there are plenty of others.

[selig_fay]

Personally, I don't need AOE abilities. On the contrary, I try to avoid this, because nullifiers and ancient healers will just make you garbage. 

On the other hand, are AoE damage abilities so important? Inaros does not have such abilities, but does this prevent him from being a top DPS? No. Because you have 3 weapon slots. And another slot for archwing weapons. Just shoot in the face, you know.

If Saryn fans like their boring gameplay, so be it, I don't care. My fantasy is to get 76% resistance in the air + adaptation, equip Ogris in razorwing, and just remove things. Yes, I will be less effective than Saryn, but the process itself will give me aesthetic pleasure in contrast to the person who just clicks on the buttons. 

The frame should not be effective in everything. In my opinion, protection, support, and utilities are a higher priority when choosing a frame that you will spend most of the game with. And that's why players will prefer Wisp, because Wisp will be able to do a lot more things more easily than Saryn. And Wisp has less armor than Saryn, but who cares?