Riven disp for standard weapons are NOT big enough.

[Doraz_]

In short, some weapons need more buffs to the riven disp to make them compete with prime variants.

for instance i love the model of the standard Lex, Lex prime is just too big imo.

[Shonaney]

Am 13.12.2019 um 02:11 schrieb [DE]Connor:

Players made it clear that they don’t want situations where the base weapon can become stronger than the upgraded version - we don’t want that either, unless the stars align for a “perfect” roll that works better on an older weapon. Therefore, increases to old base weapons will be small and gradual, to ensure we don’t cross this fine line.

so it will take time for the dispo to rise (if the weapon isnt common used at all)

Edited February 20, 2020 by Shonaney

[Doraz_]

1 hour ago, Shonaney said:

so it will take time for the dispo to rise (if the weapon isnt common used at all)

ah ok, but that is NOT a good thing

 

So, if

PRIORITY = Players made it clear that they don’t want situations where the base weapon can become stronger than the upgraded version - we don’t want that either

Then

Solution : Give Riven Disposition coefficient based on damage!

We just need the percentage of strenght based on the better variant 😄

 

 

Let's take the Lex and Lex Prime

________________________

Lex, compared to Lex Prime:

Lower base damage (130.0 vs. 150.0) = 86 %

Lower critical chance (20% vs. 25%) = 80 %

Lower status chance (10% vs. 25%) = 40 %

Lower fire rate (1.08 rounds/sec vs. 2.08 rounds/sec) = 51 %

Smaller magazine (6 rounds vs. 8 rounds) = 75 %

 

Average power of Lex compared to lex prime = 66 %

Balancing Value = BV = 100 - 66 = 44

Corrected Mastery = [DE's chosen Mastery]*( 1+ AD) = 1.15 * ( 1+44/100) = 1,65

______________________

 

There, this should work for every weapon, it can be implemented automatically, DE needs to change only the Riven coefficient as he has always done ❤️

plz ... i really love the smaller design of the lex and some other weapons.

 

All would be fixed also by letting us use standard skin on weapons.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Doraz_

[Doraz_]

ops wait, that't not right!

 

that way the more powerful the weapon the higher the disp xD

 

i'll change it just a sec

(done)

Edited February 20, 2020 by Doraz_

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I still want the lowest disposition Riven stats to be even lower. 

Top tier weapons weren't supposed to have good Rivens to keep them top tier even compared to other god roll Rivened weapons. The entire point of Rivens was to bring weaker weapons up to increase weapon diversity. Most of the time people are still only seeking out Rivens for current top tier weapons to further power creep. 

[CephalonSamara]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I still want the lowest disposition Riven stats to be even lower. 

Top tier weapons weren't supposed to have good Rivens to keep them top tier even compared to other god roll Rivened weapons. The entire point of Rivens was to bring weaker weapons up to increase weapon diversity. Most of the time people are still only seeking out Rivens for current top tier weapons to further power creep. 

Personally speaking, rivens are not the solution to this issue, it works, at best, like a band aid solution, but never fixing the real issue, which is power creep. The best way would be to allow every player to upgrade weapon to their personal satisfaction (not giving a damn about primes being out classed by a well upgraded basic). Then giving every weapon a riven of same disposition. that way u can get a weapon to required level and have fun with a mad riven. Right now, weapons like Lato Vandal are forced to rely on a riven just to compete with a normal un-rivened Lex Prime.

To make it clear:

Lets say we want high CC for our weapon. Then we farm a certain resource, upgrade the gun for high CC and be done (older players have S#&$ ton of resources just lying around in inventory with no use).

This will put it up with par on other weapons.

Next, allow all rivens to be of same dispo so that they can be fun, not necessity.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

10 minutes ago, --DSP--CephalonSamara said:

Personally speaking, rivens are not the solution to this issue

It's literally what Rivens were created for. Lol They weren't even intended to be usable for top tier weapons initially. 

11 minutes ago, --DSP--CephalonSamara said:

The best way would be to allow every player to upgrade weapon to their personal satisfaction (not giving a damn about primes being out classed by a well upgraded basic). Then giving every weapon a riven of same disposition.

 

12 minutes ago, --DSP--CephalonSamara said:

the real issue, which is power creep.

The solution would simply be to go back to the original plan of not allowing top tier weapons to have Rivens at all...

If you get to upgrade every weapon however you want, then put rivens on top of it...that's exactly power creep. If you could upgrade every weapon how you wanted in the first place then Rivens wouldn't even need to exist to begin with since everything could already potentially be generally equal.

Personally, I like your idea of acquiring a (rare) resource to use to upgrade weapon stats how you choose, incrementally. It can still be an ongoing grind with more tangible returns. As long as they make it tradable for platinum it won't hurt DE's or players' income potential from it.

[Tiltskillet]

11 hours ago, Doraz_ said:

In short, some weapons need more buffs to the riven disp to make them compete with prime variants.

Basic weapons aren't supposed to compete with their prime variants.

[Doraz_]

7 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Basic weapons aren't supposed to compete with their prime variants.

but tenno, is't that the reason DE now split riven disp? to make them compete?

[CopperBezel]

Not really. Like it'll reduce the space between them to some extent, by allowing them to reduce the disposition of rivens for very good primes of not so good weapons. The alternative would be to either pin the disposition to the prime and have the regular version get an artificially low disposition, or pin the disposition to the regular version and have the prime more powerful than was intended. The gaps between regular and prime variants of weapons can be very large or comparatively pretty small depending on the weapon in question, and in those cases where a crit chance jumps from 5% to 30% or something, it wouldn't make sense for them to have the same disposition whether that's 1.5 or 1.0.

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, Doraz_ said:

but tenno, is't that the reason DE now split riven disp? to make them compete?

Not really.

On 2019-11-07 at 10:14 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Going forward, weapon dispositions will be tuned per weapon, instead of per weapon family. For instance, this means a Kohm Riven will have a disposition of 1.4 on a regular Kohm, but only a disposition of 1 when applied to a Kuva Kohm. 

This has exciting implications for the future of Riven disposition changes! In the past, new Prime weapons would cause the usage of a weapon family to increase dramatically, forcing us to reduce dispositions for the entire family. With individual dispositions, we’ll be able to set new dispositions for Primes and other upgraded weapons right at launch, leaving your current Riven build unaffected.

We have always balanced dispositions based on the most powerful variation of the weapon in its respective family - now that this is no longer necessary, expect to see us increasing the power level on many lesser variations of weapons in our next set of disposition changes, scheduled for December. These increases will not be huge, as we don’t intend to make any base variants explicitly better than their upgraded counterparts, but it will offer a more appropriate boost that isn’t influenced by a more powerful weapon that you may not own yet.

It seems their expressed purpose was have a disposition knob available for every weapon, rather than having one knob for groups of weapons of wildly different popularities and power level.   More specifically, to avoid the situation where a player has a rivened weapon with a certain performance, and suddenly that performance decreases because of a new version of that weapon coming out.  That's a little bit too much like planned obsolescence:  not only does a better option appear, but the one with which you were perfectly happy is going to get worse at the same time.

See also:

On 2019-12-12 at 7:11 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Players made it clear that they don’t want situations where the base weapon can become stronger than the upgraded version - we don’t want that either, unless the stars align for a “perfect” roll that works better on an older weapon. Therefore, increases to old base weapons will be small and gradual, to ensure we don’t cross this fine line.

So you could make a case for "more competitive"  and maybe even  "potentially and rarely competitive as a side-effect", but that doesn't appear to be their justification for the change.

 

[CephalonSamara]

On 2020-02-20 at 8:29 PM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

It's literally what Rivens were created for. Lol They weren't even intended to be usable for top tier weapons initially. 

 

The solution would simply be to go back to the original plan of not allowing top tier weapons to have Rivens at all...

If you get to upgrade every weapon however you want, then put rivens on top of it...that's exactly power creep. If you could upgrade every weapon how you wanted in the first place then Rivens wouldn't even need to exist to begin with since everything could already potentially be generally equal.

Personally, I like your idea of acquiring a (rare) resource to use to upgrade weapon stats how you choose, incrementally. It can still be an ongoing grind with more tangible returns. As long as they make it tradable for platinum it won't hurt DE's or players' income potential from it.

The issue here is not that rivens exist but the fact that even a small increment in big stats give big output, but a huge percentage increment in small numbers is still small. The best example for this would be a comparision of Twin Vipers and Pyrana Prime.

• Twin vipers> 5 dispo, damn strong rivens, still low to moderate damage, very rarely a level 60-80 enemy shredding damage. (personal experience, need 2-3 clips of 40 rounds for sortie level grineer, rivened)
• Pyrana Prime> 1 dispo, still can kill sortie enemies without rivens.

That is the reason I said that we be allowed to even upgrade normal weapon and then apply riven for extra kick.

My other reason to believe that rivens are a band aid solution to power creep of weapons is the existence of disposition system itself. Weaker weapons tend to be used less and less, compared to stronger ones. So lower disposition for stronger weapons, but higher disposition for weaker weapons. The plan (most probably) here was to give insane buffs to weak weapons to make them relevant, not realizing that 300% of 5 would be just 15, not mind blowing 150 or 200. (Same issue used to be with Primed Reach, if anyone wants a small recall). It just makes weapons that could be fun due to their mechanics not being used at all due to the said weapon being weaker in dps. ( Seriously, its fun watching 40 rounds go off in a second and brrrrrrzt sound of twin vipers)

I'm not against rivens, but I hate the way DE has implemented it.

[Doraz_]

3 hours ago, --DSP--CephalonSamara said:

I'm not against rivens, but I hate the way DE has implemented it.

i'm of that opinion as well.

 

hell, i'd say i even like that system xD it just needs some tweaking. 

I'm not even bothered by randomness, we all are subject to it, there's no way to avoid it with plat, other than trading, in which case DE doesn't create a riven from nothing, you are paying someonelse's work done before on his riven!

 

..also ..... DE, why are u going so carefully on this .... it's a damn viper and a lex ... how in the name of konzu's early lunch are you going to break the game ... you couldn't  even if you tried to break it intentionally 

 

I sense another concern, one that i haven't seen thrown around ....

Maybe DE doesn't want to do that because it would let new players get a riven for a starting weapon made end-game capable, having so no incentive other than fashion or mastery to grind the rest.

 

If that is the case, Rivens are ALREADY mastery locked ...in my opinion you could even increase the Mastery Required generated in rivens and the community will accept it ... IF RIVENS ARE IMPROVED THAT IS 

 

 

[CopperBezel]

A high dispo riven may indeed only turn a 5% crit into a 15%, but it can instead give you 200% weapon damage and 150% elemental with a side of reload speed or something. You just roll for different things. I don't care about or seek out rivens for my top weapons, but the rivens for my Dex Furis, Akbronco Prime, and Dual Heat Swords make them fun and viable options I can certainly take into a sortie. And honestly, the same is true for most of the neutral-disposition rivens I have, which make my Battacor and Tenora, for instance, really decent weapons despite not being the best in their category. Meanwhile, I have a riven on my Catchmoon, and it's technically better than using a dual stat in its place, but mostly a sidegrade that evens out my crit chance. 

Seems working as advertised to me. = .

Edited February 21, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Doraz_]

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

A high dispo riven may indeed only turn a 5% crit into a 15%, but it can instead give you 200% weapon damage and 150% elemental with a side of reload speed or something. You just roll for different things. I don't care about or seek out rivens for my top weapons, but the rivens for my Dex Furis, Akbronco Prime, and Dual Heat Swords make them fun and viable options I can certainly take into a sortie. And honestly, the same is true for most of the neutral-disposition rivens I have, which make my Battacor and Tenora, for instance, really decent weapons despite not being the best in their category. Meanwhile, I have a riven on my Catchmoon, and it's technically better than using a dual stat in its place, but mostly a sidegrade that evens out my crit chance. 

Seems working as advertised to me. = .

 

I'm afraid you just listed some exanples where disp is chosen wisely.

 

that's the exeption not the rule.

 

Pick up the dera vandal and a lex ( not saying melee as melee 2.9 is all broken and end game !) in a kuva Flood or Sortie ... both with a good riven ... then try un-ironically wanting to sell that experience for money.

 

i'd rather go back peeling potatoes or managing people's taxes in excel.

[Ikusias]

Big issue with high disposition on poor weapons is that there's a risk of a correspondingly high and punishing downside to the riven itself as well.

Consider rolling a +200% damage, and other god roll stats only for the downside being -150% of primary damage or magazine or ammo reserve...

At the same time stats that could be relevant aren't in the riven pool: never seen equivalents of most acolite mods or area of effect, ammo conversion, accuracy.

Meanwhile, considering all the hops needed to get a riven for a specific weapon, the fact that disposition can make it worse than a corrupted mod is quite shameful considering the 18 pints of mod capacity all riven require - it's not acceptable that a riven can get much worse than a regular mod statwise.

Other consideration, already seen in the thread: 200% of 1 it's just 2... high rolls on low stats are substantially useless...

[CopperBezel]

But even that allows for the really unique builds that can come out of rivens. Like a primarily Impact weapon getting a -150% Impact, and despite the preferential weighting of physical procs, you can suddenly reliably deal elemental status on every proc. Or getting higher positives thanks to -CC on a weapon with 5% CC.

[Doraz_]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

But even that allows for the really unique builds that can come out of rivens. Like a primarily Impact weapon getting a -150% Impact, and despite the preferential weighting of physical procs, you can suddenly reliably deal elemental status on every proc. Or getting higher positives thanks to -CC on a weapon with 5% CC.

What he/she said ❤️

 

... and plus is about time DE implemented a minimum/maximum value to not produce absolutely useless rivens !

[Doraz_]

>searches new prime access videos on Youtube

*Corinth Prime has better Riven Disposition than Corinth*

 

wut?

This is probably an oversight, but it's also so funny.

I've no idea if Rivens are dictated by a common formula that takes many factors ( i guess that's be the best thing for automatic balancing ), but this is a demonstration of how useful it is adding a value inside the formula that keeps track of the difference between different versions of weapons.

 

DE's "pipeline" to release rivens and balance them ( but at this point i wonder if it isn't just done at random xD ) would be ( to be done by a script of course)

 

1) List All Weapon Classes in game

-Example

...

Acceletra ( "just the standard one)

Braton ( Prime, Vandal, standard, mk-1)

...

 

2) Calculate Average DPS from Stats

 

3) --- (Pseudo-Formula)

Final RIven Value  = 1 *  Popularity Value * Comparison Value with Highest performing weapon in class  + ( DE's Decided Value to Add or Subtract)

 

IMPORTANT!!!

 

With this setup, DE MUST ONLY CHANGE THE VALUE ON ONE RIVEN. THE  BEST PERFORMING ONE.

THE OTHER VALUES ARE DICTATED BY THE AUTOMATIC "COMPARISON VALUE" IN THE FORMULA.

 

Balancing becomes much more easier, expecially as Warframe has waaay too many weapons,  every update more are added.

 

Or maybe a system like this is already in use ... but from the results i really doubt it

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Doraz_