Something I Think Warframe Forum'ers Should Read.

[SJunior]

http://forums.firefallthegame.com/community/threads/criticism-vs-negativity.2457821/

 

^Written by a FireFall Dev, (A game that suffers from many of Warframe's same problems.) About the difference between Criticism and Negativity. The latter this forum seems to have much of. I recommend replacing the word "Firefall" With "Warframe" As everything could similarly apply to the games.

 

(I know I may have posted this on another thread already, But this seems like an awfully good post for this forum.)

[PsychedelicSnake]

Edited October 11, 2013 by PsychedelicSnake

[General_Krull]

Ced already offered a rebuttal to this in the other thread.

[SJunior]

 

Have I ever mentioned how much I love your posts, Snake? Hah.

 

 

 

Ced already offered a rebuttal to this in the other thread.

 

Likewise.

Edited October 11, 2013 by SJunior

[Arlayn]

You know me, and many other members of the forums have posted similar giant post like that here on Warframe telling people how to use these forums correctly with complaints that give ideas on how to fix the problem. Instead of the blatant  I hate this. Give the I hate this because another game did it, and made game progress unbearable etc, etc...

 

I have never seen the firefall topics.(recently over the past few weeks I just now started hearing of this obscure game called Firefall) This may also be the reason DE has been closing topics because of poorly done post, and if not the OPs post it could be the post in that topic that are utterly destroying it like a termite infestation. Best thing for DE to do by then is tear out the bad wood and dispose of it before it spreads, and gets worse. Thus locking topics.

[General_Krull]

I've seen very elaborate topics with good constructive criticism being derailed by "yes men". There are a few particular people who hound each and every feedback, suggestion thread until it gets derailed and locked. You should call those people out too.

[ForumSmurf]

imo gamers who complain are generally one game gamers. Do what i do and play simultaneously several games regular at once and switch between them. Then the symptoms of needing everything in a currently under developing game to be perfect goes away. I currently spread my time equally between dota 2 lol skyrim warframe and borderlands 2. And yet i've still been able to accomplish everything in all those games. Diamond rank in lol, High bracket dota and finished skyrim BL2 several times while being rank 11 in warframe.

[General_Krull]

imo gamers who complain are generally one game gamers. Do what i do and play simultaneously several games regular at once and switch between them. Then the symptoms of needing everything in a currently under developing game to be perfect goes away. I currently spread my time equally between dota 2 lol skyrim warframe and borderlands 2. And yet i've still been able to accomplish everything in all those games. Diamond rank in lol, High bracket dota and finished skyrim BL2 several times while being rank 11 in warframe.

People who complain want to see the game get better. People who don't apparently do not want the game to get better. For each person who complains a few more quietly leave.

[Arlayn]

People who complain want to see the game get better. People who don't apparently do not want the game to get better. For each person who complains a few more quietly leave.

You forget the people who complain in complaint topics about not changing it the way the OP complainer wants it to be changed. In order to prevent the game from going down a path of horror. Good example said Player makes topic about tokens. I show up like Dikembe Mutombo and go NOT TODAY.

[General_Krull]

You forget the people who complain in complaint topics about not changing it the way the OP complainer wants it to be changed. In order to prevent the game from going down a path of horror. Good example said Player makes topic about tokens. I show up like Dikembe Mutombo and go NOT TODAY.

But to me it seems like some people are disagreeing with OP on general principle. And then instead of saying why his suggestion is bad they attack the op. I think yes men are far more destructive to this game than complainers.

[Arlayn]

But to me it seems like some people are disagreeing with OP on general principle. And then instead of saying why his suggestion is bad they attack the op. I think yes men are far more destructive to this game than complainers.

Derailing may be the immature way to do what I do. While I argue the point why they shouldn't do it. The people who derail are intellectual not intelligent enough to attempt arguing and derail it for the sake of stopping them... There really isn't much we can do. We could ask DE to put warning points on them, but it seems to extreme since the derailing thing is kinda hard not to do on accident sometimes. Sometimes I do it on accident so it would be extreme to put warning points on it. Maybe DE, or mods could warn in topic. Alas they already do this and it derails anyway so we know that fails. So what else can we do about them? Nothing. The Forums will have them regardless of what we do. They are like bacteria. No matter what you do there will always be bacteria.

 

The best thing to do is just let DE lock stuff. Then start another topic, and do it all over again.

[General_Krull]

Derailing may be the immature way to do what I do. While I argue the point why they shouldn't do it. The people who derail are intellectual not intelligent enough to attempt arguing and derail it for the sake of stopping them... There really isn't much we can do. We could ask DE to put warning points on them, but it seems to extreme since the derailing thing is kinda hard not to do on accident sometimes. Sometimes I do it on accident so it would be extreme to put warning points on it. Maybe DE, or mods could warn in topic. Alas they already do this and it derails anyway so we know that fails. So what else can we do about them? Nothing. The Forums will have them regardless of what we do. They are like bacteria. No matter what you do there will always be bacteria.

 

The best thing to do is just let DE lock stuff. Then start another topic, and do it all over again.

Derailing IS against the rules.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

http://forums.firefallthegame.com/community/threads/criticism-vs-negativity.2457821/

Now, I don't play firefall, but I agree with the dev on the statement of Negativity isn't needed, HOWEVER negativity =/= complaints. If a complaint thread offers WHY it's a problem, that's good/positive feedback. Not all feedback needs to have a solution in it to be positive (but it helps to come up with ideas anyways)

 

What I mostly see is people complaining, and (mostly, again) telling WHY whatever they're complaining about is a problem.

Edited October 11, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Soulie]

Firefall's development strategies have baffled me over the last 2 years.  Nothing they're doing makes any sense to me.  The game they demoed at Pax 2010 was the game I wanted and they've gone so far away from that, I don't think the game will be very successful.  People are being negative for a reason.  It's because they're scared for the game they love and they feel the decisions the dev team is making, are actually killing the game.

 

Sure negativity isn't always constructive, but devs need to know when they're @(*()$ things up royally.  Red5 devs don't seem to want to budge on a few very controversial changes they've made to the game, stating the game "needs" it.

 

Well my rebuttel would be "Your game also needs players and with this change, you're driving many of them away."  That statement may be negative, but it's also true.  I had high hopes when I first got into FireFall beta years ago, but now, in all honesty, I think it's going to fail.

 

Let's also not forget that some of the people upset are people who invested money into a game and didn't get what they promised and are now realizing they'll never going to.  The $100 founders pack I got for FireFall now feels like a bad investment, because it's no longer a game I want to play.  It was back in early beta, when the pvp felt more like TF2 and they weren't trying to push the game into eSports.  I was also looking forward to the open world stuff and based on the Pax 2010 demo I saw on youtube, it looked like it was going to be like an open world Borderlands with loot and all kinds of fun stuff to do.

 

Well now they're forcing everyone to craft their gear and now gear is no longer permanent.  The more you play, the faster your gear breaks, forcing you to build replacement gear.  Frankly, it just makes me mad.  Why would you strip fun from your game, just because you want your game to have a "deep" economy.  And for the love of God, if you're going to require players to spend so much time in your game's UI, crafting and selling things on the marketplace, at least make it run smoothly.  Their UI runs off a web server and it's been the source of much of my frustration for YEARS. 

 

I'm done with my rant though.  I come to these forums, to get away from what's going on over there. 

Edited October 11, 2013 by Soulie

[lautalocos]

But to me it seems like some people are disagreeing with OP on general principle. And then instead of saying why his suggestion is bad they attack the op. I think yes men are far more destructive to this game than complainers.

it doesn´t matter who is more destructive, it matters that they destruct. there´s no destruction scale.

[syle]

yeah well

they don't want to hear the negativity

they will listen to criticism and than just smile and keep on doing their own thing,maybe make apologetic post about it and just ignore the issues that were discussed and resolutions proposed will stay ignored

but they will gladly take your money

 

so ill just say

grow a pair of balls if you want to charge ppl money for your "beta"

Edited October 11, 2013 by syle

[Arlayn]

Now, I don't play firefall, but I agree with the dev on the statement of Negativity isn't needed, HOWEVER negativity =/= complaints. If a complaint thread offers WHY it's a problem, that's good/positive feedback. Not all feedback needs to have a solution in it to be positive (but it helps to come up with ideas anyways)

 

What I mostly see is people complaining, and (mostly, again) telling WHY whatever they're complaining about is a problem.

Feedbacks should have solutions. You can't just walk in say it sucks and not say why, or what should be done. You should be like it sucks because I don't get this, maybe you can do this, and this to make it better. Example Forma complaints are a good example of this. As everyone said make them show up more, and they did.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Feedbacks should have solutions. You can't just walk in say it sucks and not say why, or what should be done. You should be like it sucks because I don't get this, maybe you can do this, and this to make it better. Example Forma complaints are a good example of this. As everyone said make them show up more, and they did.

I think you misread what I said. I said that as long as a complaint explains why they're complaining about something (and it's valid, i.e. "forma at a 0.67% drop chance is too low because you need a massive amount for formating weapons/frames, building a dojo, building weapons,") then it's positive feedback (imo)

 

They don't HAVE to offer solutions, but it's nice if they do.

Edited October 11, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Keltik0ne]

imo gamers who complain are generally one game gamers. Do what i do and play simultaneously several games regular at once and switch between them. Then the symptoms of needing everything in a currently under developing game to be perfect goes away. I currently spread my time equally between dota 2 lol skyrim warframe and borderlands 2. And yet i've still been able to accomplish everything in all those games. Diamond rank in lol, High bracket dota and finished skyrim BL2 several times while being rank 11 in warframe.

Holy god, how much freetime do you have ?

[General_Krull]

it doesn´t matter who is more destructive, it matters that they destruct. there´s no destruction scale.

There's Richter scale. But yes you have a point.

[ArsVampyre]

Feedbacks should have solutions. You can't just walk in say it sucks and not say why, or what should be done. You should be like it sucks because I don't get this, maybe you can do this, and this to make it better. Example Forma complaints are a good example of this. As everyone said make them show up more, and they did.

No.

 

Feedback does not require a solution.  The first step in solving any problem is recognition of what the problem is.  

 

A thread saying "This game sucks" isn't feedback at all.  It doesn't say what's wrong, or help solve the problem.

 

A thread saying "This game sucks because all I do is grind and grind the RNG to get keys so I can get different keys so I can get a chance to get one of the parts I need and it's not likely to be that part but rather the same part over and over that I already have."

 

You may say that's not feedback, but it is.  It clearly says what the player feels is wrong.  The player doesn't need to provide a solution, though one can be and often is, for it to be good feedback.

 

A response in a thread where you go 'nuh uh, it's not a problem for me so it isn't a problem' isn't useful, it's a derailment.  

[Ganpot]

Written by a FireFall Dev, (A game that suffers from many of Warframe's same problems.)

 

As someone who is very familiar with both the Firefall forums and the game itself, I find your post quite funny.  I don't know how much information you have about Firefall's history, but I can tell you without a doubt that negativity had nothing to do with that game's decline and current situation.  In fact, the negativity was merely a symptom of fans telling the devs over and over again that they were on the wrong track.  Instead of listening, the devs buckled down and refused to accept that they might have made any mistakes.

 

I remember when Firefall had a small, close-knit fan-base; back when the game was almost purely PvP.  I'd never seen a happier, more hope-filled and helpful community.  There wasn't much content, and the game was unstable and buggy, but it was FUN.  There were no grind-walls, no gear tread-mills, no time-sinks.  But slowly, Red5 started changing things.  Item tiers were added, which over time created power-creep.  Crafting became more grind-based.  New content became gated.  PvP was initially re-balanced around "e-sports" (while forgetting about everyone else), then neglected.  New tough enemies were created to combat power-creep, which turned combat into a stat contest instead of a true shooter.  Finally, permanent item decay was introduced. 

 

Despite Red5's adamant assurances that these features were necessary for the game to grow, the opposite ended up happening (to no surprise of most fans).  Go re-read the last parts of that article (titled Nostalgia and The Future).  Does that rhetoric sound at all familiar to you?  It's almost the same exact arguments Microsoft made at the beginning of their Xbox One campaign.  It essentially boils down to: "This is the future; deal with it."  In other words, Red5 is still stubbornly clinging to their old beliefs.  They are simply refusing to listen to their fans, and as long as that continues, their game is doomed to fail. 

 

What happened to Firefall was tragic, but the blame lies solely with Red5.  The fans did their part: they spread hype, they pointed out flaws and mistakes, they made suggestions.  They went above and beyond their obligations to try to help the game.  In the end, Red5 just didn't listen. 

 

Ced already offered a rebuttal to this in the other thread.

 

Would you mind linking to that post?  I'd love to read it.  Whenever Ced posts something, I tend to find merit in it. 

[General_Krull]

 

Would you mind linking to that post?  I'd love to read it.  Whenever Ced posts something, I tend to find merit in it. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/118827-stop-locking-threads-we-are-discussing/page-5

 

scroll down and you should see it.

[Ganpot]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/118827-stop-locking-threads-we-are-discussing/page-5

 

scroll down and you should see it.

 

Thank you good sir.  I knew about the Founder's quote, but I was unaware of the raffle fiasco.

[beol]

Firefall's development strategies have baffled me over the last 2 years.  Nothing they're doing makes any sense to me.  The game they demoed at Pax 2010 was the game I wanted and they've gone so far away from that, I don't think the game will be very successful.  

 

I remember being excited by that demo, and filling Firefall away into my "try in open beta or launch" mental file. Then the market norms changed and games started lingering in F2P "beta" for years ..

 

Well now they're forcing everyone to craft their gear and now gear is no longer permanent.  The more you play, the faster your gear breaks, forcing you to build replacement gear. 

 

Yeah .. I don't think I'll trying that after all.

 

Now I'm sad I didn't try to get in early closed beta :(

 

Still happy with Warframe though. Although I wish they'd stop it with the no-random-groups-allowed content and weapon power creep. By which I mean "DE sux and they're going in the totally wrong direction. waah.", of course.