Should the Operator receive a "rework"? (spoilers)

[Teridax68]

Just now, zhellon said:

Wait for the duviri paradox. Maybe an open world just for operators will change something. Consider starting the game again, just as an operator, 

Okay, but that means we're waiting on a future update to retroactively justify a major game system that's been around for years. If we're expecting some later bit of content to give an existing feature a purpose, that feature has no innate purpose, and is unlikely to serve a strong function in the future if that function is only bolted on.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but that means we're waiting on a future update to retroactively justify a major game system that's been around for years. If we're expecting some later bit of content to give an existing feature a purpose, that feature has no innate purpose, and is unlikely to serve a strong function in the future if that function is only bolted on.

This is what I feel with archwing before the release of the Empyrean. We have an archwing combat system, but it is not really used anywhere. I think the duviri paradox will be the same. But who knows?

[Teridax68]

Just now, zhellon said:

This is what I feel with archwing before the release of the Empyrean. We have an archwing combat system, but it is not really used anywhere. I think the duviri paradox will be the same. But who knows?

I don't quite agree, because Archwing always at least offered a distinct function and playstyle in the form of space combat. The mode just happened to be in an awful state for a very long time, and stuck to isolated missions, but at least managed to become more fleshed-out when open levels and Railjack came out. The same can be said for Railjack, which offers genuine gameplay of its own, and could be amazing if it genuinely connected the whole world, but currently kinda sucks due to being stuck in its own content island. By contrast, Operators accompany us pretty much throughout all parts of the game we play, but are still largely redundant outside of Eidolon fights and some quests.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't quite agree, because Archwing always at least offered a distinct function and playstyle in the form of space combat. The mode just happened to be in an awful state for a very long time, and stuck to isolated missions, but at least managed to become more fleshed-out when open levels and Railjack came out. The same can be said for Railjack, which offers genuine gameplay of its own, and could be amazing if it genuinely connected the whole world, but currently kinda sucks due to being stuck in its own content island. By contrast, Operators accompany us pretty much throughout all parts of the game we play, but are still largely redundant outside of Eidolon fights and some quests.

Well, we have a lot of redundant things, like an Orbiter that has useless abilities that you can craft.

[Teridax68]

7 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Well, we have a lot of redundant things, like an Orbiter that has useless abilities that you can craft.

Absolutely, except Operator Mode is a massive set of systems and a core feature of the game post-TSD+TWW. A minor bit of content being redundant is understandable, a core game system being so is not.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Teridax68

[KitMeHarder]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Every single one of those effects serves as damage-enhancing utility, and functions poorly as direct damage.

I mean that's the point. You're not going to get a room nuking Operator to go with your unkillable, infinite energy Trinity; Nor should you. If a frame needs more damage, the Operator buffs mainly your weapons in order for it to stay viable with DPS frames.

But even then your job as a support frame is to support said DPS frames, not compete with them.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

CC is not survivability

When enemies aren't attacking you, you aren't taking damage.

And I think you underestimate the survivability of Operators. Especially when they can go intangible on demand, even in relation to a combat scenario.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This I think is the operative claim here, so to speak, as it is becoming rather apparent that you are taking your personal liking of Operator Mode, and drawing from it the conclusion that the mode is objectively good and something everyone else should enjoy as well. Unfortunately, Operator gameplay is notoriously unpopular

No I'm being objective. And the point is you aren't supposed to rely primarily on the Operator, nor should you, but they aren't worthless either. As in if they made a sortie condition of "Operator only" it'd go perfectly fine as a challenge, but otherwise you should not view the Operator as your primary "game piece".

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

and the reduction of Archwing to travel in open levels has itself been criticized as a bad thing.

It's because people are stuck in their ways. Amesha is better than a large chunk of frames, the Fluctus is a great and fun gun, etc... But I'm guessing you don't go out of your way to play regular AW missions.

Now that's not because AWs suck, but because there's no reason to play those missions. They don't add any new content to the existing missions, and the community is on such a bandwagon that they won't add AW missions to stuff like the sortie rotation.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This merely reinforces the notion that Operator Mode is simply a thing one temporarily pops to return to one's warframe right after for proper combat, which raises the question of why we even need a separate mode to begin with.

As a compliment to the play style. One that's also lore friendly, and mindful of limited inputs on console. Or would you rather all the frames go intangible, create energy bubbles, open enemies up to finishers, etc...?

If you want a change in play style, it's called playing a new frame.

6 hours ago, Deluxe-Chimera said:

Lockdown pull enemies were you dashed

It does not. Are you thinking about Anomaly?

6 hours ago, Deluxe-Chimera said:

and a soma-like amp was a suggestion for what could be implemented

Would that not be the Rahn prism?

6 hours ago, Deluxe-Chimera said:

That's about it Void blast can be absolutely forgotten

Temporal Blast is one of the strongest parts about the Operator, and Voltaic Blast is great CC and utility from destroying things like sabotage objectives/kuva clouds. And that's just Zenurik, other schools have good stuff too.

6 hours ago, Deluxe-Chimera said:

I didn't compare them to Warframes directly, I'm pointing a second time that they SHOULDN'T be stronger than a Warframe, but they should be more useful, giving them more purpose than just a Battery, it is absolutely possible to give them more purpose not directly linked with the Amps being able to one shot anything, say CC, defensive capacities, good mobility and such.

Then they already are this.^

Edited May 7, 2020 by KitMeHarder

[Teridax68]

14 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I mean that's the point. You're not going to get a room nuking Operator to go with your unkillable, infinite energy Trinity; Nor should you. If a frame needs more damage, the Operator buffs mainly your weapons in order for it to stay viable with DPS frames.

But you can certainly nuke a whole room with Mesa or Saryn while also locking groups of enemies down with Magus Lockdown, so really, something's not quite right there.   

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But even then your job as a support frame is to support said DPS frames, not compete with them.

But the request isn't for Operator Mode to be top-tier in these contributions, simply for them to be built to contribute something other than CC or utility. At the end of the day, maxing out the damage school doesn't make Operators do good damage, maxing out the tank school doesn't make Operators tanky, and maxing out the melee school doesn't make Operators good at melee combat. It's not exactly possible to complement frames that aren't innate tanks or nukers when the complement itself can only do a very limited subset of things.

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When enemies aren't attacking you, you aren't taking damage.

Which is all very nice in theory, but doesn't take into account enemies that ignore or resist CC, or damage that may already be on you. 

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And I think you underestimate the survivability of Operators. Especially when they can go intangible on demand, even in relation to a combat scenario.

I don't. They can go invincible on-demand and have no real penalty for dying, but at the end of the day, actual combat with them sucks, because on top of having mediocre EHP, they're also painfully slow in the middle of combat. In general, Operators are really good at flying around, going in stealth, and doing lots of things outside of combat, but if you actually stand around and fight with them, it's not going to work out well.

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No I'm being objective. And the point is you aren't supposed to rely primarily on the Operator, nor should you, but they aren't worthless either. As in if they made a sortie condition of "Operator only" it'd go perfectly fine as a challenge, but otherwise you should not view the Operator as your primary "game piece".

You're being objective... on which grounds? Visibly you aren't, as you are making a lot of excuses for issues that objectively exist with Operators, and using your own subjective liking of the mode as an argument. I'm not claiming that they should be the centerpiece of our play, but considering that they are a major game system that even you are claiming exist to complement our warframes, then perhaps they should be able to do that much. They don't. The entire mode's playstyle is reductive due to how it encourages the player to pop in and out of Operator for only brief periods of time to pop buffs/debuffs, and the inability for the Operator to specialize into anything other than CC or utility makes them unable to properly complement most frames.

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It's because people are stuck in their ways. Amesha is better than a large chunk of frames, the Fluctus is a great and fun gun, etc... But I'm guessing you don't go out of your way to play regular AW missions.

... Amesha is the only Archwing I use, and any other AW is a rarity now among the playerbase. That still does not prevent open levels from actively discouraging Archwing combat via anti-air rocket spam. The only one who appears stuck in their ways here is you, as the Fluctus is good for AW levels, but not for Railjack, where instead weapons like the Cyngas dominate (and you're better off with the Corvas or Imperator Vandal for Profit-Taker). I don't understand why you even chose to argue this, given that this was only a tangential point in a conversation that did not feature you.

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Now that's not because AWs suck, but because there's no reason to play those missions. They don't add any new content to the existing missions, and the community is on such a bandwagon that they won't add AW missions to stuff like the sortie rotation.

No, it is in fact because most Archwings suck. AW missions may be abandoned, but even beyond that, Archwings are known for being notoriously awful, which is also why DE is working to revamp them completely. Directional shields in hypermobile 360 degree combat are not a great idea, nor is stationary stealth in missions that require constant movement, or space nukes that require a hard surface to activate (to say nothing of the flat damage falling off hard). Amesha is the only AW worth picking, and so because of its 1.

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As a compliment to the play style.

Which play style? As established above, Operators only complement a very limited number of playstyles in the game. 

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One that's also lore friendly, and mindful of limited inputs on console.

How is an extra button press mindful of limited inputs on console? Operators have been a clear-cut example of input creep ever since their addition, and the worst part is that they still fail to justify taking up that extra real estate, let alone their status as a core game system.

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Or would you rather all the frames go intangible, create energy bubbles, open enemies up to finishers, etc...?

Or perhaps we could just use one of our existing systems to provide the utility of Operators? Companions already do much of that, right down to the objective of complementing our playstyles.

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If you want a change in play style, it's called playing a new frame.

This is perhaps the stupidest and most self-defeating argument you could've given when you've just tried to justify Operators as an addition to our play style. You're right, warframes are the real customization factor when it comes to choosing a playstyle... so what is the point of Operators? Despite requiring an immense time investment to open up their talent tree, said talent tree doesn't really let us specialize them by that much, nor does it make them especially good at anything. There is no real Operator playstyle to be had, because everything about Operators discourages us from using them for more than a few seconds at a time. All of this begs the question of why we even need the Operator, if the whole thing is intended to boil down to pressing a button for bonuses.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Teridax68

[P._I._Staker]

They need to give me loadouts already so I don't have to go in and manually change arcanes for operator  & their amp

[vanaukas]

VOID damage = True damage and a rework for the focus system. No more just one school, we should choose to make our own tree of preferences. I mean, we (people who have maxed focus system entirely) deserve to choose they way we can play.

An school hybrid system is enough to make the operator mroe viable as now. YOu'll have to choose abilities from different schools (outside waybounds), for example you would choose betwen unairu void blast or zenurki void blast, so you can't stack everything because it would be ridicously op. A lot of game changing builds could be done, an actual price for unlocking everything.

For the arcanes, I think with 1 more on the operator and 1 more on the amp is enough to make sick builds.

I've been suggesting similar things from long ago but I've never get any response from the devs or from the community ouside the classic "why i would play as operator lel". People who thinks the operator canno't damage high tier enemies NEVER tried magus mel + virtutos trojan with a 773 amp.

13 hours ago, Reaper76OTP said:

They need to give me loadouts already so I don't have to go in and manually change arcanes for operator  & their amp

You have 3 loadouts, they have tied togteher "clothes" + operator arcanes and amps are tied to amp arcanes.

Edited May 8, 2020 by xHeretic

[selig_fay]

29 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

An school hybrid system is enough to make the operator mroe viable as now. YOu'll have to choose abilities from different schools (outside waybounds), for example you would choose betwen unairu void blast or zenurki void blast, so you can't stack everything because it would be ridicously op. A lot of game changing builds could be done, an actual price for unlocking everything.

Uh, no. This will just lead to a meta build that mainly uses zenuric elements.

[vanaukas]

14 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Uh, no. This will just lead to a meta build that mainly uses zenuric elements.

And what's the difference right now? The meta is using zenurik. At least it would add relevancy to other schools.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, xHeretic said:

And what's the difference right now? The meta is using zenurik. At least it would add relevancy to other schools.

So instead of making all schools good, you just suggest merging all schools into one meta build?

[Urlan]

I would like to see Amps for each of the other Tenno Void powers: Void Blast, Shadow, and Dash; be created. Honestly, I had figured Void blast amps would be introduced with Fortuna and was sorta shocked that instead it just had more of Quill Onkko's Void laser offerings. the point of focus school relevancy is a solid one, what with stuff like Vazarin Healing Dash being so heavily reduced as to be a waste to use for most missions.

[vanaukas]

3 hours ago, zhellon said:

So instead of making all schools good, you just suggest merging all schools into one meta build?

Of course it would be better if they rework, but I like the idea of customization, doesn't matter if it born a meta from there, everything has a meta, a meta isn't mandatory at all. Why are you against it? Every school has a nice bunch of things that could be useful on diferent situations, just like "mods" allows that diversity. I'm pretty sure it won't be a "meta" for everything, just like now. Almsot everyone use klamora-propa-certus, or madurai for eidolons, or vazarin in the past for endless defenses/excavations. Don't act like it would hurt something.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, xHeretic said:

Of course it would be better if they rework, but I like the idea of customization, doesn't matter if it born a meta from there, everything has a meta, a meta isn't mandatory at all. Why are you against it? Every school has a nice bunch of things that could be useful on diferent situations, just like "mods" allows that diversity. I'm pretty sure it won't be a "meta" for everything, just like now. Almsot everyone use klamora-propa-certus, or madurai for eidolons, or vazarin in the past for endless defenses/excavations. Don't act like it would hurt something.

I just think that the separation of roles should make a difference. And having a choice tree where you don't actually have a choice is the same as in skyrim, where you start playing a mage, but always end up OP warrior with 0 manacost and where there is literally nothing left of the mage.

[vanaukas]

44 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I just think that the separation of roles should make a difference. And having a choice tree where you don't actually have a choice is the same as in skyrim, where you start playing a mage, but always end up OP warrior with 0 manacost and where there is literally nothing left of the mage.

It could ve mitigated with bonus for choosing a single school, like megaman X5-6-8 armor where you can make combinations but loses the giga attack. I was thinking they should bring back the giant beam as a "ult", that beam was awesome and it's a shame you have to forgot it to play as combat operator. Maybe the bonus could be the beam itself.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

It could ve mitigated with bonus for choosing a single school, like megaman X5-6-8 armor where you can make combinations but loses the giga attack. I was thinking they should bring back the giant beam as a "ult", that beam was awesome and it's a shame you have to forgot it to play as combat operator. Maybe the bonus could be the beam itself.

Well, the beam can be made as a replacement for void blast, as is done with vazarin shield.

[vanaukas]

Just now, zhellon said:

Well, the beam can be made as a replacement for void blast, as is done with vazarin shield.

why tho? I think we can do a permutstion between wich ability we want to use but limited to where it belongs. Energizig dash = Protective dash, for example, just one of those at the same time, void aegis = void strike and so. There is nothing like the beam itself and could be amazing to have it again with long cooldowns tied to the performance (more kills as operator = faster beam recharge)

[P._I._Staker]

18 hours ago, xHeretic said:

You have 3 loadouts, they have tied togteher "clothes" + operator arcanes and amps are tied to amp arcanes.

tyvm!  but also, equipment isn't under the equipment tab, but under the clothing tab??!! ffs this ui design.

[Maj-Cero]

Give me Mote Prime with a unique secondary fire. Just give it a unique secondary fire the other amps don't have. Or even have it activate an energy blade enabling operator melee with it! Don't see that happening but just throwing out ideas.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Maj-Cero

[vanaukas]

7 hours ago, Reaper76OTP said:

tyvm!  but also, equipment isn't under the equipment tab, but under the clothing tab??!! ffs this ui design.

Yeh w should access it from arsenal... But welp, that's the only way to have "loadouts" but it's very limiting yet. I hope we can have something better in the future.