Fix Wukong's exalted weapons with Range mods

[(XBOX)Rhythm Grey]

On 2020-05-29 at 12:04 PM, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

@ZarTham @(XB1)NeonLights57

Personally I went with Steel Charge + Arcane Fury to replace any pure Melee Damage mod you want to slot in on Iron Staff, went with only Condition Overload on Iron Staff’s build with Sacrificial Steel + Primal Rage with Viral/Heat. I might have to revisit my build since the status changes, though, but I feel like that’s the best I could do in pushing IronStaff/PrimalFury’s output on a consistent basis without having to sacrifice Primed Reach on Iron Staff’s mod build.

Prior to Melee Damage 3.0, my build was meant to emphasize on Bleed procs that could happen with Iron Staff. Now, dps/ttk is mostly emphasized on Viral/Heat stacking, so it’s been altered to how typical melee works now.

edit: I’m at work right now (essential worker and all), but I’ll try to provide screenshots of my WuKong and Iron Staff build if interested. 

id like to see your build.
@zartham good to know, i'll most likely alter my build to match lei's, with some alterations to fit my style.  thanks for the help

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

27 minutes ago, (XB1)Neon Lights9212 said:

id like to see your build.
@zartham good to know, i'll most likely alter my build to match lei's, with some alterations to fit my style.  thanks for the help

This is the WuKong build that I run.

As for the Iron Staff, this is what I run, but since the changes to status effects and proc weighting I might want to reconsider what I want to do with the elemental combinations: 

Adding Buzzkill only makes the Slash weight slightly above and on-par with Impact, I would hate to double-stack two Slash IPS mods. I might remove Sacrificial Steel just to open a slot for more playtesting. And I also feel that Primed Fever Strike was fun to have in there prior to the status effects changes, but now with them revised and with the 0.25x multiplier removed on elemental combos (or 4x multiplier on IPS, whichever), things are different now.

Heck, I used to run a Bane mod and only slapped Heat on Iron Staff and ran with that. I might have to playtest that again and see how it goes.

[(XBOX)Rhythm Grey]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

This is the WuKong build that I run.

As for the Iron Staff, this is what I run, but since the changes to status effects and proc weighting I might want to reconsider what I want to do with the elemental combinations: 

Adding Buzzkill only makes the Slash weight slightly above and on-par with Impact, I would hate to double-stack two Slash IPS mods. I might remove Sacrificial Steel just to open a slot for more playtesting. And I also feel that Primed Fever Strike was fun to have in there prior to the status effects changes, but now with them revised and with the 0.25x multiplier removed on elemental combos (or 4x multiplier on IPS, whichever), things are different now.

Heck, I used to run a Bane mod and only slapped Heat on Iron Staff and ran with that. I might have to playtest that again and see how it goes.

thanks, i'll evaluate my build and see what i need to change to get a bit closer to this build.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Try a corrosive heavy attack build.

Can usually one shot 165 CHGs.

[nooneyouknow13]

8 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Try a corrosive heavy attack build.

Can usually one shot 165 CHGs.

It ones shots up to 170 most of the time, and probably farther. But Gears will just go on a rant about only light attack builds mattering because ????

Of course, even then while it's best used as a heavy attack weapon, once you're looking at normal melees with rivens, it's still not worth the energy drain. All of the exalted melees are stuck in a state where they're OP at low MR, great at mid range, and not really worth the energy once you have access to all weapons, acolyte mods, and rivens.

And Iron Staff is still stuck with a silly stance that doesn't actually leverage the range the staff does have anyway.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I did some tests last night with WuKong’s Iron Staff. The one thing that sets him apart from other Exalted Melees is that he has the highest Status Chance out of the rest unaugmented and maintains IPS stats.

At the time, I was still using the same WuKong Warframe build, so Primal Rage is still slotted. Some variations of switching Arcane Fury out for Arcane Strike was done, but in the end I kept with Arcane Fury.

With 3 dual-stat mods and a Melee Prowess, he can hit 111% Status Chance. From there, it was a matter of bolstering Slash with Buzzkill or Buzzkill + Jagged Edge and seeing if it would ramp up ttk higher with Bleed Procs. After a couple or so runs with those combinations plus Viral/Heat and Viral/Electric, kill times were almost marginally the same with just 1 Buzzkill tbqh. Then rewinding a bit and just not considering Buzzkill/Jagged Edge and using Sacrificial Steel, Bleed procs were still present but not as consistent as before. They still happened, and most of the IPS that occurred was from Primal Fury’s guaranteed Impact procs from the stance itself.

In the end, I believe I went with Berserker, Condition Overload, Vicious Frost, Virulent Scourge, Volcanic Edge, Melee Prowess, Sacrificial Steel, Primed Reach. This was the best conclusive combination that I had in conjunction with Steel Charge + Arcane Fury + Primal Rage + 236% Power Strength.

What’s funny with the status effects changes on  melee is that hitting over 100% status feels more important than having a crit damage mod in on some applications (at least to the extent of Amalgam/Organ Shatter) if you’re going to focus on light attacks and hitting max melee combo counter with Weeping Wounds. Ttk is higher when you can proc multiple status ailments per hit, so with that the prioritization of crit dmg modding is less of a necessity for light attacking (what I mean here is, if you want to slot in Healing Return for melee healing, you can prioritize that over Organ Shatter if you want to keep Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds working in tandem on a hybrid melee build) if you want that Status Chance boost.

What I can say conclusively with all of this modding mumbo-jumbo, and going back on topic, is that Reach mods won’t necessarily help with ttk and dps with Iron Staff. A base range increase to Iron Staff would be welcome in combination with Primed Reach for QoL range. Ultimately, I feel that a change to the augment Primal Rage having an increase to crit chance as well as status chance would be a huge boon to increasing dps. Also, some considerations like: 1) A slight shift of Iron Staff’s IPS stats from 170 Impact 80 Slash to 160-150 Impact 90-100 Slash would help with proc distribution on melee weapon procs, 2) Drastic changes to Primal Fury’s stance where hitboxes need to be adjusted accordingly to be more centered-to-reticle and consistent, and 3) Maybe consider putting some guaranteed Bleed procs into Primal Fury’s stance/combos.

Edited May 31, 2020 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[kwlingo]

16 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

What I can say conclusively with all of this modding mumbo-jumbo, and going back on topic, is that Reach mods won’t necessarily help with ttk and dps with Iron Staff. A base range increase to Iron Staff would be welcome in combination with Primed Reach for QoL range.

So you're saying you don't believe range would help but than your asking to add base range? lol This sounds hypocritical. Also by just stating to add a base range would be similar to saying just add auto spread with Saryn spores without her 3rd ability active or killing any enemy.

For any gains or increase their should be a draw back on some other end of the kit as well for balance. Just gaining and with no draw backs has created too much dissatisfied players.

Why is it, that everything has to one shot all enemies? This is why there is such a large division in the community who want to add more DPS to Kuva Bramma and the others who want it nerfed to balance the rest of the weapons.

[ZarTham]

7 hours ago, kwlingo said:

So you're saying you don't believe range would help but than your asking to add base range? lol This sounds hypocritical. Also by just stating to add a base range would be similar to saying just add auto spread with Saryn spores without her 3rd ability active or killing any enemy.

For any gains or increase their should be a draw back on some other end of the kit as well for balance. Just gaining and with no draw backs has created too much dissatisfied players.

Why is it, that everything has to one shot all enemies? This is why there is such a large division in the community who want to add more DPS to Kuva Bramma and the others who want it nerfed to balance the rest of the weapons.

Wukong's Staff could increase to an absurd amount of range, that was too OP ofc, due to walls and obstacles not serving as stoppers, but now they do, and even mobs prevent hit through (this is the reason as to why range wouldn't help much), but at the same time it would allow us to swap Primed Reach with something else to boost damage/crit/status (and this is the reason as to why a range boost would be appreciated).

Don't compare Saryn's spores to a staff that can't hit through obstacles/mobs, Saryn spores spread beyond obstacles (limited to its own range ofc) and it has synergy with Miasma, so you're comparing a nuker vs a Staff, and don't compare it to the Bramma, you're making a comparison between a ranged mini nuclear launcher to a staff.

The comparisons we are making are melee vs exalted, considering the way the Iron Staff is currently, there's no point whatsoever to use it vs another melee. Consider this, Wukong's Iron Staff can't make use of acolyte mods (no blood rush), can't make use of rivens, can't trigger Gladiator set bonus, and has energy drain attached to it,  if you played Wukong hardcore you'll see what I mean and you'll see how we feel about the current Iron Staff.

But from my perspective, the issue doesn't stop there, you also have to take a look at Wukong's arsenal, I've posted my view regarding Celestial Twin and Defy in page 1, as for Cloud Walker, it's just turning into a cloud and move fast from one spot to another, besides being able to make allies invisible through Enveloping Cloud (which breaks when the person attacks).

And the Iron Staff is just a Staff with energy drain, as pointed out.

Edit: Oh, and no combo counter damage multiplier.

Edited June 1, 2020 by ZarTham

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

8 hours ago, kwlingo said:

So you're saying you don't believe range would help but than your asking to add base range? lol This sounds hypocritical.

How is this hypocritical? Do you want Iron Staff to behave like this?

(Tbqh, we all did at one point.)

What is it going to achieve? Especially when melee doesn’t have punchthrough anymore and bolstering such a high amount of range would emphasize the use of Overextended, dropping Power Strength and attempting to compensate for that drop.

I agree on the matter that the base energy drain on Iron Staff needs a revisit @ZarTham. And it would be ideal to have Acolyte mods work with Iron Staff to match with the current changes to melee, but here we are with Exalted Melee: gimped to not use them, but some buffed out of proportion due to how they naturally worked as an ability in the beginning with the augment tweaked to overpowering levels (Chromatic Blade, Reactive Storm).

Using Saryn as an example is an unfair comparison to my proposal of buffing Iron Staff’s base range and as an ability overall. When the initial melee changes/review came into place regarding the range changes, it was already confusing enough that Iron Staff did not get such a high base range increase out of other melee (3.5 for Iron Staff compared to War’s 3.2, Wolf Sledge’s 3.1, and the majority of range stats that’s at 2.5 and 3). Buffing that range stat would just mean you only need to consider using melee Reach mods if you want more melee range (as it has always been with WuKong’s v2 kit), whereas buffing range on WuKong only increases slam radius and Defy’s swing after damage absorption is completed. In all honesty, imho, if more reach would be warranted the melee combo counter should come back to bolster range, and I feel that should be enough to make range feel more dynamic when melee-ing.

Regardless on the matter with range, if the funky hitboxes and animation stalling (that overhead horizontal swing-to-fall-to-crawl animation) on Primal Fury’s stance isn’t resolved it truly doesn’t matter if range/reach mods and melee combo counter should affect Iron Staff’s reach: If swinging the staff isn’t centered toward the reticule, you’re going to miss some hits and have to melee closer or have to readjust your positioning if you want to hit from afar. If the stance has any stalling animation whatsoever, you’re going to get hit and it will have an awkward flow to consistent light meleeing. For some reason, Clashing Forest’s neutral combo is able to achieve this but not Primal Fury’s neutral combo.

Quote

For any gains or increase their should be a draw back on some other end of the kit as well for balance. Just gaining and with no draw backs has created too much dissatisfied players.

Primal Fury and Iron Staff have been unbalanced for a majority of years, to say the least. And not for the better in recent months, so the two are in need of buffs at this point (which shouldn’t warrant any drawbacks when it comes to their modding potential). Prior to and after the changes to Condition Overload, I’ve always approached Iron Staff with the methology to that of an assault rifle: faster point of contacts equate to more status procs. I never emphasized too much into Power Strength unless it’s to buff the initial strength of Iron Staff, and since Slash was added to it months ago to emphasize on Bleed procs this has always been my approach of not concerning myself too much on upfront damage. There are and were some players that have only used Iron Staff to brute force content (especially since Condition Overload was prevalent with its previous algorithm) and are only concerned about its burst damage. So please, don’t try to make the argument against me that I want Iron Staff to be a nuker. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[kwlingo]

2 hours ago, ZarTham said:

Don't compare Saryn's spores to a staff that can't hit through obstacles/mobs, Saryn spores spread beyond obstacles (limited to its own range ofc) and it has synergy with Miasma, so you're comparing a nuker vs a Staff, and don't compare it to the Bramma, you're making a comparison between a ranged mini nuclear launcher to a staff.

Your missing the point. Lol in terms of adding base range is negative build purposes for mods. There is a reason to have mods but range does nothing to staff. The reason why I used Saryn is because to make her spores work you either need to turn on her 3rd ability or kill the enemy infected. If they just added a spread (base range of spread) it would unbalance the kit and make it too brain dead.

If you want something similar, instead of using range mods on melee now melee just has a +6m to range. This defeats the purpose of even using or having range mods, it starts breaking the mechanic of the game play and starts adding brain dead game play like, as how ranged pole arms doing +15-20m "even after damage in line of sight" was implemented. Running down a hall way and the entire hall was dead.

The only time range becomes a problem is when the damage output is to high. If your building for range but cannot deliver damage, it creates a balance in mechanics. This is why Dev has stated no content can create difficulty because of "room nukers/ cc." If we just want raw range and damage into one package, it breaks the game.

Edited June 1, 2020 by kwlingo

[ZarTham]

24 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Your missing the point. Lol in terms of adding base range is negative build purposes for mods. There is a reason to have mods but range does nothing to staff. The reason why I used Saryn is because to make her spores work you either need to turn on her 3rd ability or kill the enemy infected. If they just added a spread (base range of spread) it would unbalance the kit and make it too brain dead.

If you want something similar, instead of using range mods on melee now melee just has a +6m to range. This defeats the purpose of even using or having range mods, it starts breaking the mechanic of the game play and starts adding brain dead game play like, as how ranged pole arms doing +15-20m "even after damage in line of sight" was implemented. Running down a hall way and the entire hall was dead.

The only time range becomes a problem is when the damage output is to high. If your building for range but cannot deliver damage, it creates a balance in mechanics. This is why Dev has stated no content can create difficulty because of "room nukers/ cc." If we just want raw range and damage into one package, it breaks the game.

I understand your argument, but it falls flat because we're talking about a staff ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ not some skill that deals damage by just pressing 4.

Edited June 1, 2020 by ZarTham

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

If you want something similar, instead of using range mods on melee now melee just has a +6m to range. This defeats the purpose of even using or having range mods, it starts breaking the mechanic of the game play and starts adding brain dead game play like, as how ranged pole arms doing +15-20m "even after damage in line of sight" was implemented. Running down a hall way and the entire hall was dead.

And having a negative Range stat on Wukong, if this proposal goes through, would inherently be a nerf to Iron Staff than buffing Iron Staff’s base range. When relying on melee range mods to buff range, or how the previous mechanic of utilizing the melee combo counter to bolster range up-to-a-cap was the norm in previous WuKong’s kit.

How is this proposal of making Iron Staff utilizing Warframe Range mods more reasonable than giving Iron Staff’s base range a marginal buff above 3.5, or alternatively bringing back the melee combo counter range mechanic any better? When the modding approach at present (and since WuKong’s release) was to trash or adjust Range since it only affected slam radius/initial reach and emphasize your focus to other areas of WuKong’s kit?

Edited June 1, 2020 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[kwlingo]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

And having a negative Range stat on Wukong, if this proposal goes through, would inherently be a nerf to Iron Staff than buffing Iron Staff’s base range. When relying on melee range mods to buff range, or how the previous mechanic of utilizing the melee combo counter to bolster range up-to-a-cap was the norm in previous WuKong’s kit.

How is this proposal of making Iron Staff utilizing Warframe Range mods more reasonable than giving Iron Staff’s base range a marginal buff above 3.5, or alternatively bringing back the melee combo counter range mechanic any better? When the modding approach at present (and since WuKong’s release) was to trash or adjust Range since it only affected slam radius and emphasize your focus to other areas of WuKong’s kit?

Guess you didn't read the post. Any range adds to the range. A 40% range adds .4m, a 280% adds 2.8m. lol Also if your going negative range add more duration to staff which allows for longer use of the Staff. Or is there another mod Im missing here?

Lol that is why I was proposing range mods to affect the range of melee not just his 3rd ability. I don't see any down fall with caps on range or damage. They need more caps in game.

[kwlingo]

57 minutes ago, ZarTham said:

I understand your argument, but it falls flat because we're talking about a staff ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ not some skill that deals damage by just pressing 4.

I'm sorry I can't help if you cannot relate other situations to relate. If you need help relating topics, I'm not sure where you can get help?

If you want to balance the game you have to look at all aspect of the game. Not just one ability or weapon. That is what has happen to so many things. They focus on one and the other weapons or frames are not looked at breaks the purpose of even changing it.

Edited June 1, 2020 by kwlingo

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

19 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Guess you didn't read the post. Any range adds to the range. A 40% range adds .4m, a 280% adds 2.8m. lol Also if your going negative range add more duration to staff which allows for longer use of the Staff. Or is there another mod Im missing here?

Lol that is why I was proposing range mods to affect the range of melee not just his 3rd ability. I don't see any down fall with caps on range or damage. They need more caps in game.

So let me ask you this: Why should WuKong be the exception with Range mods on his Exalted Melee when melee range in general was normalized to have melee reach mods used as the contextual buffer to gain more range for melee? 

And at negative-to-base range, it would still be an accountable buff for Iron Staff? At base 100% range Iron Staff comes pre-buffed (4.5m as opposed to the normative 3.5m)? What’s the point of having a reach stat on Iron Staff’s UI then? Why would DE justify this concept?

Edited June 1, 2020 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[kwlingo]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

So let me ask you this: Why should WuKong be the exception with Range mods on his Exalted Melee when melee range in general was normalized to have melee reach mods used as the contextual buffer to gain more range for melee? 

My earlier post I stated other frames with exalted weapons should have the same effect. I could go more into the effects/ details of other exalted weapons but that would be another thread or possible already someone has made one.

 

11 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

And at negative-to-base range, it would still be an accountable buff for Iron Staff? At base 100% range Iron Staff comes pre-buffed (4.5m as opposed to the normative 3.5m)? What’s the point of having a reach stat on Iron Staff’s UI then? Why would DE justify this concept?

Yes it doesn't break the melee concept with 4.5m while entire room 20m is game breaking "this totals in 40m swings from sweep of staff, depending on the combo performing."

Okay let even go the other route and make the 40% give a -.6m to staff = 2.9m total. Doesn't matter to me. I was just thinking have a additive to the base range would be nice versus nothing making the staff special as it is currently. 2.8m (280% range) and 3m (primed reach) only making the staff 9.3m isn't even game breaking. Like many have said rivens can make weapons reach further than even with this option of range effecting the reach of staff. I do believe if players have rivens, it should make their weapons more exceptional.