[The Outdated Parkour Thread] It Finally Happened! (Voice Your Opinion In The Poll!)

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

okay you 2 are really pushing me into rage.

OK, so I guess instead of doing something more productive I'll go into the pivot animator. I will sit there, doing the stupid animation just for you 2 because you can't seem to wrap your head around this. I am sorry if this sounds aggressive but this is a really dumb situation where most of us are discussing about directional melee as a melee ability and you just pop in and start moaning about movement. It's like you're complaining to apple that their iphones are not serving ice cream.

 

I did try to explain it further in the OP. Even used red color because people say it attracts attention. Maybe that'll clear it up for you?

 

Do you really have to be so freaking rude about it? So what if they misunderstood you? Its because your gif was misleading. Loss of momentum directly equates to loss of velocity and you didn't specify that momentum wouldn't be lost under certain circumstances.

Also, it's important to talk about movement when talking about melee because they have to work together in game. Any melee mechanics that actively interfere with movement or vice versa would be detrimental to the game experience.

When you provide feedback you should expect that some people may require clarification. We can't read your mind and you may, at times, fail to convey an idea as fully as you should. There's no need to fly into a rage about it.

 

[DSpite]

So, you guys are planning to kill coptoring.  Have you figured out how to replace the loss of movement?  Have you figured out how to keep the tenno moving fast and far in all directions?  Taking fun away from people is not acceptable.  If you're going ot take something you'd better figure out how to get it , or something better, back.  No back sliding.

 

It does not matter. If they kill coptering we adjust to something else. My beef is not that I don't want "parkour", it's the fact we have no use for it other then make pretty videos.

 

If the game reverts back down to CoD4 movement speed and suddenly Rhino is slow again, so be it - hell, I'd almost like that as a game mode - I still fail to see why coding a ton of new "wall running code" and THEN also needing to MODIFY MAPS in order to support it can possibly add to a shooter game where 99% of the missions do not need it.

 

The reason we copter around and air melee around is merely "convenience". Forcing new movement that is fully reliant on maps supporting it, is &#! backwards. Coptering and air melee is not "map reliant", it has simply become a navigational assistance tool. Who the hell builds convoluted structures on wonky platforms over running, molten lava, other then directors on movie sets and game designers?

 

These guys here basically want a "game mode" added to the game, not a movement option.

 

And they STILL fail to understand that I'm not against it, I'm just 99% of the opinion that it cannot be done in a way that makes missions "better". It will just be another road bump we have to simply deal with that we could have just driven around the old ways. It will be like adding "press X to open" on random doors, something annoying that was not there to begin with.

 

Don't put a ravine in my way with a broken bridge and a way to wall run it and call it "game play" unless I'm playing Indiana Jones or Tomb Raider, when here, if I had one of the 10+ Frames with "movement" abilities, it would be a casual "press X" to get around it, but instead, If I accidentally have a min range Rhino Charge that can't get me across, I have to either type "hey Nova, Worm Hole plz??" or hug a wall for 5 seconds.

 

The NEED for "parkour" on a map has to make sense in the context of the map.

 

We run missions where we kill people in swarms. There is no frigging way you can add parkour to that in ANY meaningful context that will not seem HORRIBLE contrived.

 

[ThePresident777]

How do players adjust to something else if coptoring were removed?  They can't just code their own movement mechanics.  If the fastest movement in the game is removed, there is nothing left but slower movement.  That sucks in my opinion.

 

I've adjusted to archwing's nerfed movement by only playing it for event rewards where as I used to play it for fun and was wanting to buy plat because of it (but didn't because I suspected nerfs incoming and I was proved right.)

Edited December 22, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Jax_Cavalera]

The effort put into this thread is really awesome and deserves recognition even if just for that alone.  As for parkour I agree that is has become a fairly sub-par alternative to melee jumping.

 

The conclusions are where my thoughts differ from those of the OP slightly.  

 

1.)  I think that one of the greatest issues with Parkour is wall-running being disabled on certain surfaces.  This is one of the real game breaking mechanics as you are not able to know for certain that when you approach every single wall surface, you will get to wall-run to keep momentum up.

 

2.)  Stopping players from moving quickly between Directional Melee and Wall-Running repeatedly is another problem as there are a lot of times where they could synergise well together but in their current state are competing against each other in terms of preference for transport.

 

3.)  I don't agree that Directional Melee or Coptering should be nerfed or hindered simply to encourage players to begin to parkour.. that's not a move in the right direction.  Parkour instead should simply be enhanced further so that it can synergise better with Directional Melee / Coptering.

 

4.)  Directional Melee flight range and direction are both calculated based on the weapon attack speed and angle in conjunction with current velocity at the time of launch.  With practice you can become rather pin-point with this technique.. it isn't buggy or unreliable in the same way firing a bow in real life isn't unreliable.

 

Both tasks simply take practice to get good at performing and it requires a familiarity with the specific Melee Weapon / Bow and Arrow you are using in order to achieve reliable results.  I get that the comparison between using a Bow and Arrow vs Directional Melee in a Game may seem strange yet both tasks have a lot of similar characteristics at the core of what is required to perform them well.

 

5.)  To drop at a specific moment during Directional Melee you simply aim down at that spot and re-melee again to do a ground attack.  As things currently are you have adequate control over Directional Melee it isn't a problem based on my experience.

 

 

The proposition of mid-flight melee battles is cool and could still be achieved in the current state of things by simply re-pressing Quick-Melee whilst already in the air.  Perhaps the delay timer between Quick-Melee's should be reduced if there is a valid target in range being aimed at so it triggers a new style of animation and you launch a dedicated mid-air attack on the targeted enemy.

 

 

Love the idea of the Wall-Run direction being based on angle of camera whilst not shooting.. becomes problematic though if you want to shoot an enemy chasing you whilst wall running and when on a wall.. aiming to shoot is next to impossible so the idea is cool provided there were a way to toggle it so you can hold on current vector to then swing the camera aim.. shoot.. look back and then toggle cam-directional wall running on again

 

Leg-Ups are cool and sadly will hurt the solo players out there unless they become optional.. in which case they won't be that rewarding to those who have the skills to make them work in a team anyway.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Jax_Cavalera

[Aure7]

Do you really have to be so freaking rude about it? So what if they misunderstood you? Its because your gif was misleading. Loss of momentum directly equates to loss of velocity and you didn't specify that momentum wouldn't be lost under certain circumstances.

Also, it's important to talk about movement when talking about melee because they have to work together in game. Any melee mechanics that actively interfere with movement or vice versa would be detrimental to the game experience.

When you provide feedback you should expect that some people may require clarification. We can't read your mind and you may, at times, fail to convey an idea as fully as you should. There's no need to fly into a rage about it.

 

I already replied earlier to someone else saying that it was my fault in the beginning. But I just lost control when I woke up and saw someone still misunderstanding it even after I tried to explain it further, I am not too proud of it.

[DSpite]

There has to some very severe "parkour" addition to this game to make it meaningful to use.

 

The only reason I have to use the current "exploits" as people keep insisting, is because after running the same map 1000 times, I have no longer any interest in interacting with it, in any way other then finishing the mission objective.

 

I'm already starting to see a TON of overkill modded Valkyrs and Novas on Syndicate missions because Rip Line/Worm Hole speed up looking for Syndicate baubles, so how the hell can you possibly code those out to hide them in "parkour only" places? There is no way you could.

 

Parkour needs to fulfill a function in order to exist. Since we already have a ton of abilities to vastly boost our movement capabilities, what niche will new non-energy based options fill?

 

Just a simple well modded Zephyr will trivialize any map you make to hinder movement. She basically has a damn jetpack.

 

If DE adds more freerunning stuff? It better be spectacular.

Edited December 22, 2014 by DSpite

[Nkomo-Sama]

I swear...just give me a got durned BACK TUCK when I press jump and do the handspring command...

 

 

RIGHT NOW WE HAVE THIS: :   

 

 

 

BIG DADDY NKOMO suggests this: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AND IF YOU WANT TO GET FANCY AND KEEP PRESSING JUMP AND BACK TUCK YOU DO THIS... LIKE A GOT DURNED NINJA/SPACE GYMNAST:

 

 

 

 

You all know me... and you know my campaign will not end until victory is achieved.... #HELPOURNINJASDOBACKFLIPS 2014

Edited December 22, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[Aure7]

It does not matter. If they kill coptering we adjust to something else. My beef is not that I don't want "parkour", it's the fact we have no use for it other then make pretty videos.

 

If the game reverts back down to CoD4 movement speed and suddenly Rhino is slow again, so be it - hell, I'd almost like that as a game mode - I still fail to see why coding a ton of new "wall running code" and THEN also needing to MODIFY MAPS in order to support it can possibly add to a shooter game where 99% of the missions do not need it.

 

The reason we copter around and air melee around is merely "convenience". Forcing new movement that is fully reliant on maps supporting it, is ! backwards. Coptering and air melee is not "map reliant", it has simply become a navigational assistance tool. Who the hell builds convoluted structures on wonky platforms over running, molten lava, other then directors on movie sets and game designers?

 

These guys here basically want a "game mode" added to the game, not a movement option.

 

And they STILL fail to understand that I'm not against it, I'm just 99% of the opinion that it cannot be done in a way that makes missions "better". It will just be another road bump we have to simply deal with that we could have just driven around the old ways. It will be like adding "press X to open" on random doors, something annoying that was not there to begin with.

 

Don't put a ravine in my way with a broken bridge and a way to wall run it and call it "game play" unless I'm playing Indiana Jones or Tomb Raider, when here, if I had one of the 10+ Frames with "movement" abilities, it would be a casual "press X" to get around it, but instead, If I accidentally have a min range Rhino Charge that can't get me across, I have to either type "hey Nova, Worm Hole plz??" or hug a wall for 5 seconds.

 

The NEED for "parkour" on a map has to make sense in the context of the map.

 

We run missions where we kill people in swarms. There is no frigging way you can add parkour to that in ANY meaningful context that will not seem HORRIBLE contrived.

 

I win you guess. You're posting this for like 10th time and all of us just got tired of arguing with you. There's a bit I've written specifically for you in the OP, there have been countless attempts to calm you down but you seem to look past it all. Personally I wasn't even fighting against your opinion, just tried to say that you misunderstood my thread and your stuff is kinda insignificant to me. You're going on about level design while I haven't even touched that in my suggestions because it doesn't even matter.

 

How do players adjust to something else if coptoring were removed?  They can't just code their own movement mechanics.  If the fastest movement in the game is removed, there is nothing left but slower movement.  That sucks in my opinion.

 

I've adjusted to archwing's nerfed movement by only playing it for event rewards where as I used to play it for fun and was wanting to buy plat because of it (but didn't because I suspected nerfs incoming and I was proved right.)

Haven't I and others already replied to the same argument several times already?

quote from several pages back:

"wow these guys are literally thinking it's not worth updating parkour because currently it sucks and directional melee is better while my entire thread is about making parkour useful and better so it won't suck.

 

Do I even need to say anything else?"

 

 

Oh and I see what's up with DSpite now. I think you are stuck with this perception of parkour which is that parkour is something for platformer or adventure games that is forced on player because of level design. You keep on saying that updating parkour is not worthwhile because you seem to imagine parkour ONLY as a level section that you have to cross in a traditional single player game. Most of us here simply want added depth to the simple run and gun style gameplay.

[ThePresident777]

If the thread is simply about updating parkour, then why all the coptoring hate?

[Lukap99]

If the thread is simply about updating parkour, then why all the coptoring hate?

A lot of people see coptering as a giant band-aid for moving fast, and directional melee by extension.

Personally I don't hate it, but I really wish it was more useful in the context of melee combat rather than flinging yourself across the map.

[ThePresident777]

But if you don't fling yourself across the map then how do you quickly cross it?  Imagine doing Excavation, Interception, or Rank 17 Mastery Test without being able to get across the map quickly.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Adder9]

You cross the map the old fashioned way; on your feet, and win by playing more tactically rather than being everywhere at once.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Adder9

[taiiat]

You're going on about level design while I haven't even touched that in my suggestions because it doesn't even matter.

oi! this is most definitely partially related to Level Design. the Collision Meshes that the Tiles use are not exactly the most practical. Digital Extremes like to shrinkwrap Collision Meshes a lot, and that means that little tiny craps that shouldn't get in the way, do.

 

so Parkour certainly has some issues that reside in Level Design.

ex - your GIF where you're trying to scale a wall and your Warframe keeps bouncing back down several times? i could (very likely) fix that in 10 minutes by adjusting the Collision Meshes so that they were more like a gradial 'ramp' rather than a wall above you.

this one, incase we aren't clear.

 

You can move a lot faster than just coptering when you play well and use everything at your disposal.

yes and no. SpinDashes, Directional Melee, and Parkour all used together, makes for the fastest Tenno. but only using Parkour leaves a lot of gaps currently. these silly Animations allow us to fill those gaps.

 

ultimately, don't expect SpinDashes and Directional Melee to just disappear. so focus your effort on making Parkour compliment them so that they all work together, rather than fighting against each other.

Edited December 22, 2014 by taiiat

[Aure7]

oi! this is most definitely partially related to Level Design. the Collision Meshes that the Tiles use are not exactly the most practical. Digital Extremes like to shrinkwrap Collision Meshes a lot, and that means that little tiny craps that shouldn't get in the way, do.

 

so Parkour certainly has some issues that reside in Level Design.

ex - your GIF where you're trying to scale a wall and your Warframe keeps bouncing back down several times? i could (very likely) fix that in 10 minutes by adjusting the Collision Meshes so that they were more like a gradial 'ramp' rather than a wall above you.

this one, incase we aren't clear.

 

yes and no. SpinDashes, Directional Melee, and Parkour all used together, makes for the fastest Tenno. but only using Parkour leaves a lot of gaps currently. these silly Animations allow us to fill those gaps.

 

ultimately, don't expect SpinDashes and Directional Melee to just disappear. so focus your effort on making Parkour compliment them so that they all work together, rather than fighting against each other.

I meant it's not about level design in a way that we would have to suddenly wipe the old tiles, massively create NEW tilesets specifically for this parkour 2.0 and so on. All we need from existing tiles is like you said, collision mesh cleaning. Other than that, level design is fine for parkour 2.0 that I am suggesting.

[Aspari]

I meant it's not about level design in a way that we would have to suddenly wipe the old tiles, massively create NEW tilesets specifically for this parkour 2.0 and so on. All we need from existing tiles is like you said, collision mesh cleaning. Other than that, level design is fine for parkour 2.0 that I am suggesting.

Speaking of level design, I'm glad you said that.

 

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the tile sets are best suited for corridor shooters. Spaces are rarely open. They feel like they were better designed for Bioshock 2, The Darkness 2, or Homefront (both are titles DE did), which were corridor shooters. Not all of the tile sets are like that of course, but the older Grineer and Corpus tile sets and the new Infested ship tile sets work better for corridor shooters.

 

I mean, if the tile sets were designed more like how Dying Light's or Titanfall's or even GunZ 2's maps were designed then parkour will see much more use. I won't say Prince of Persia because those acrobatic scenes are scripted.

 

Don't get me wrong, though. Your parkour suggestions are awesome for reforming parkour's functionality in the game. This thread is all about functionality. I'm also saying that I understand where some of the other people posting in this forum thread are coming from.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Aspari

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

There has to some very severe "parkour" addition to this game to make it meaningful to use.

 

The only reason I have to use the current "exploits" as people keep insisting, is because after running the same map 1000 times, I have no longer any interest in interacting with it, in any way other then finishing the mission objective.

 

I'm already starting to see a TON of overkill modded Valkyrs and Novas on Syndicate missions because Rip Line/Worm Hole speed up looking for Syndicate baubles, so how the hell can you possibly code those out to hide them in "parkour only" places? There is no way you could.

 

Parkour needs to fulfill a function in order to exist. Since we already have a ton of abilities to vastly boost our movement capabilities, what niche will new non-energy based options fill?

 

Just a simple well modded Zephyr will trivialize any map you make to hinder movement. She basically has a damn jetpack.

 

If DE adds more freerunning stuff? It better be spectacular.

 

You bring up a good point. Even if parkour is improved upon with these suggestions it will still be useless in common gameplay like it is now. But ideally, I'd want it to be used for damage mitigation. Similar to the way that movement helps you avoid damage in arena based shooters. Currently this isn't possible even with warframe abilities and I think it would be a good addition to the game to allow for a level of skill based input. Parkour improvements alone wouldn't make it happen, but it's a good first step.

[(PSN)theelix]

Just because it's page 43 and people seem to not be reading previous pages... 

TL;DR: 

Directional Melee. What we got: 

What we want:

What I want: 

 

Parkour. What we got: 

What we want:

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

But if you don't fling yourself across the map then how do you quickly cross it?  Imagine doing Excavation, Interception, or Rank 17 Mastery Test without being able to get across the map quickly.

Increase base runspeed of all frames, as I suggested before. Keep coptering in, but give players a small increase to their aeriall movement speed while maintaining momentum. That's how I'd fix it.

[taiiat]

-snip-

i think we could get away with increasing the Animating speed of Warframes. ones with lower Sprint Speed, i find myself putting Rush on - not to go faster - but to make the Animations and Input Delays faster / shorter for the Warframe so i don't press buttons and have the game ignore my Input as much.

 

so if we could detach Warframe control from Sprint Speed so that slower Sprint Speed didn't also mean massively clunkier Character Control, we'd be in a better spot.

since the stat is about the speed that we Sprint, not supposed to be how fast or slow we transition between Animations and Et Cetera :|

 

i think that's what happens with complaints for Sprint Speed. it's not the lateral movment rate that's the issue, it's that the lower number makes us multiplicatively slower at transitioning between Animations and crap that shouldn't be slowing us down as 'Space Ninjas'.

[Senuska]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but what about having the coptering move cost more stamina (a lot more)? So that players couldn't spam it through the whole map, but still use it to cross wide gaps?

 

This would be more of a stop gap until DE can introduce better parkour mechanics, and it would still keep the functionality of coptering without making it the only way to move through the whole map.

[taiiat]

-snip-

Stamina in general:

 

1 - started existing because of it, to make Players go slower. didn't work.

2 - had Stamina costs of everything heavily reduced because nobody was particularly keen on Stamina.

 

so we already went down that road, and it didn't seem to go well.

[Nkomo-Sama]

yeah, because Warframe has had Controller Support forever.

most definitely hasn't. i'm fairly positive 1st party Controller Support wasn't until after it was on Consoles.

This is not true at all.Controllers have been supported since U8 at the very least.like june '13

Edited December 23, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[taiiat]

This is not true at all.Controllers have been supported since U8 at the very least.like june '13

you could use it, but it wasn't going to treat it like a Controller. people were using 3rd party software for a long time after to get them recognized.

 

and the Keybindings Menu for Controllers wasn't there until sometime after U13.

[Senuska]

Stamina in general:

 

1 - started existing because of it, to make Players go slower. didn't work.

2 - had Stamina costs of everything heavily reduced because nobody was particularly keen on Stamina.

 

so we already went down that road, and it didn't seem to go well.

 

I think if they re-visited the system and tried to get a melding of the past and present stamina costs it would be on the right track. But I am not talking a whole stamina re-work, just changing the cost of the sliding melee. That way the change can be monitored more closely than a whole system rework, and be easier to balance.

[Nagisawa]

A lot of people see coptering as a giant band-aid for moving fast, and directional melee by extension.

Personally I don't hate it, but I really wish it was more useful in the context of melee combat rather than flinging yourself across the map.

It's not a band-aid, it's really the only way to fly.  And worse, it invalidates a lot of the options that DE was mistakenly trying to put into the game.

 

A mistake that got turned into the only real movement option.

 

This disappoints me.

 

I don't think Air Melee actually qualifies because it's so broken at the moment, with all the getting stuck in the geometry and stuff.