[The Outdated Parkour Thread] It Finally Happened! (Voice Your Opinion In The Poll!)

[DSpite]

You make a good point, but you also assume a bit too much. 

 

Why parkour needs to be optimal, or have a point other than simply being a fun mechanic to use? Does it necessarily need to contribute to how fast/efficient a mission can be completed? From a "time-reward" perspective 90% of equipment is not worth using other than for mastery fodder, and yet people use those items. In the aforementioned Assassin's Creed there is fast travel option, and yet many people choose to run everywhere because they like the feeling of freedom that this particular system, with all its flaws, gives them.

 

I'm saying this because I get a min-maxer vibe from you, as if parkour needs to have 100% synergy with everything else in game to have it's existence justified. Unless you base your entire game on parkour, as an integral and absolutely crucial mechanic, parkour is never going to be more than fluff and icing on the cake. The problem with Warframe is that this icing is godawful.

 

As for tilesets not adapted for advanced movement - you gotta start somewhere. In order to redesign maps for a new parkour system you need to have that system working to know exactly what can you do with the maps. Baby steps.

 

But  you're right in that a single 2.0 is not gonna make parkour perfect, it will be a long process, and how DE handles this first step will tell us a lot about their further plans (if they have any). 

 

I'm def not a min-maxer.

 

All I am saying is that unless new movement mechanics are "fun" and not some new arbitrary way that needs to be used to get things done, I'm fine with them. But if it becomes "use Parkour or waste a ton of time" I'll just use Frames that have movement abilities to get around the whole mess.

 

If I want to play a Stealth game, I will go on Steam and get Thief. If I want Parkour I'll go play Mirrors Edge. Mangling what is basically an action coop shooter to force freerunning into it will not make the majority happy.

Edited April 1, 2015 by DSpite

[StonedMakak]

Warframe in a nutshell.

 

I see we are tiny and few unimportant droplets in a huge ! ocean of hardcore grinders and farmers.

 

Call me naive, but I still have hope that at some point, DE will realize that making a fun game, will increase their income. Maybe not as much as the cheap tactics they use now (unbearable grind alleviated by plat), but still, it will contribute. It seems like I'm S#&$ting all over Warframe big time, but I actually quite enjoy it. It's the wasted potential and cheap cop outs that bug me :/.

 

You're spot on about the farmers/grinders tho, which is kinda scary.  

 

I'm def not a min-maxer.

 

All I am saying is that unless new movement mechanics are "fun" and not some new arbitrary way that needs to be used to get things done, I'm fine with them. But if it becomes "use Parkour or waste a ton of time" I'll just use Frames that have movement abilities to get around the whole mess.

 

If I want to play a Stealth game, I will go on Steam and get Thief. If I want Parkour I'll go play Mirrors Edge. Mangling what is basically an action coop shooter to force freerunning into it will not make the majority happy.

 

Ha, seems I should take my own advice and not assume so much, I understand your point better now. Seems like we'e on the same page too. 

[SomeCrackHead]

+10000000000000000

[Aure7]

+10000000000000000

that puts my thread with a nice number of ten quadrillion upvotes and a bit more! Should be plenty to make devs listen to suggestions. Hopefully they don't question how I managed to get that because this means each person in the world upvoted this ten million times.

[ThePresident777]

I agree with the idea that it is unacceptable to depend on primitive and awful looking melee attacks to build a movement system.  But that does not entail getting rid of coptoring.  That entails separating them so that coptoring is a movement mechanism not connected to melee.  Once they are separate, they can then get the individual attention they deserve.

[Inez]

I don't 100% agree with the OP or the commenters in this thread, but there is certainly a lot here the devs should pay attention to. And the OP should be congratulated on his well thought out, informative post.

[PR1D3]

I hope that some of this stuff was thought of and is getting implemented to Parkour 2.0

[unknow99]

Maybe I'm getting my hopes too high, but I still hope Parkour 2.0 would be as enjoyable as this :

 

Edited May 5, 2015 by unknow99

[Rakshal]

Maybe I'm gerring my hopes too high, but I still hope Parkour 2.0 would be as enjoyable as this :

 

-snip-

I hope we get to be able to jump that high when we play as Zephyr.

 

Off topic: That game has had a lot of improvements (mostly to random stuff though), the animations look way more smooth.

[taiiat]

the animations look way more smooth.

i've mentioned it before (maybe in here, maybe not) but a couple important notes on that:

Overgrowth does not put Animations before Gameplay. there's lots of fancy Animations that look pretty - but they will not screw over your playing of the game.

David Rosen realizes that playability is more important than a weird looking Animation once in a while.

which Warframe could learn from.

a pretty looking Animation is great, unless it gets in the way of playing the game it's in, as then it lowers the Skill Ceiling and dumbs down what the Player is capable of doing. limiting their potential because the game won't let you play at a higher Skill level.

[dashashou]

Maybe I'm gerring my hopes too high, but I still hope Parkour 2.0 would be as enjoyable as this :

 

 

it's only a matter of time before some one re-brings up overgrowth for the umpteenth time   and i've given up hope that warframe will ever become overgrowth  it's just never going to be that good-  parkour wise

Edited April 23, 2015 by Ravel7

[tmtke]

Well, I'm following overgrowth for a while, checking the videos and all, but I'm not that impressed. While it has really cool and smart techniques, I can't really imagine the same movement style in warframe environment. From a coder standpoint, I admire overgrowth's procedural engine, but the downside of this method is that it's really hard to add personalisation (like the different warframe style stances, and the like). From an artist/level designer standpoint, overgrowth has large open spaces with big, flat surfaces. Warframe is really different. It has narrow corridors, irregular open spaces. The same physics and engine would only hurt warframe control and feel. I'm not saying that some of the stuff overgrowth has doesn't fit, but in a whole: no.

[Aure7]

That entails separating them so that coptoring is a movement mechanism not connected to melee.  Once they are separate, they can then get the individual attention they deserve.

that's exactly what I've been talking about this entire time

[Thalahssalyst]

That entails separating them so that coptoring is a movement mechanism not connected to melee.  Once they are separate, they can then get the individual attention they deserve.

Thats is what we want.

Coptering its going to be balanced, for example, based on warframe speed and not from your melee weapon, it not make sense be faster for the atack speed from your melee weapon.

Manage your warframe mods to be fast. No your melee.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Grimlock-

[taiiat]

but the downside of this method is that it's really hard to add personalisation

The same physics and engine would only hurt warframe control and feel.

- false. if David Rosen wants to add something new, he just creates 13 new posing frames (as opposed to most singular Animations having dozens or even hundreds), and then he's got a completely new look to the same movement actions done. same deal for any of the Animations anywhere in the game.

it's REALLY fast and easy.

- have you played Overgrowth? having Character control in Warframe that works like that would be a huge benefit to the Player. because there is absolutely no Animation Lock whatsoever. you NEVER, EVER lose control of your Character. Player Agency is retained 100% of the time.

it's snappy and responsive at all times.

if your only real complaint is how high you can jump or something - while not as easily, we can jump that high or higher in Warframe already anyways.

(here is a brief overview of how Animation is handled in Overgrowth - you may have seen this presentation before)

[ThePresident777]

that's exactly what I've been talking about this entire time

More than that was said.  Specific suggestions were made in a separate thread that would make coptoring totally lame.  What people like me want is something fast and spectacular, something Space Ninja, like Overgrowth or Cloudbuilt.

[tmtke]

- false. if David Rosen wants to add something new, he just creates 13 new posing frames (as opposed to most singular Animations having dozens or even hundreds), and then he's got a completely new look to the same movement actions done. same deal for any of the Animations anywhere in the game.

it's REALLY fast and easy.

Yes, I saw that video. And no, it's not what I was talking about. The 13 keyframes are the KEY frames, personalization is from the inbetweens. What the guy does (really nicely btw) is a generalization of human movement. The only thing you can play with is the interpolation curves between the key frames, and the other systems driving the character. All actual game engines are having these in some form or in some depth, transitioning and overlaying different animations. Again: owergrowth is fine as it is, I just having concerns about applying the same system to warframe (and I didn't said a word about control, I'd like that to happen as much as you do).

[unknow99]

Yes, I saw that video. And no, it's not what I was talking about. The 13 keyframes are the KEY frames, personalization is from the inbetweens. What the guy does (really nicely btw) is a generalization of human movement. The only thing you can play with is the interpolation curves between the key frames, and the other systems driving the character. All actual game engines are having these in some form or in some depth, transitioning and overlaying different animations. Again: owergrowth is fine as it is, I just having concerns about applying the same system to warframe (and I didn't said a word about control, I'd like that to happen as much as you do).

 

...And in french, what does that mean?

[tmtke]

 

...And in french, what does that mean?

 

That there is a tradeoff: in the case of overgrowth system you'll have a general movement/navigation/fighting animation engine, but you'll lose almost every characterisation/personalisation options. Each system is good, the overgrowth guy can't afford 10 animators working on characters all the time, so he had to implement a system instead. On the other hand (current game engines are all having movement trees and a lot of nonlinear animation possibilities) you will have things like noble stances and distinct, characterised animation sets, but it's a lot of work.

 

The thing what warframe is failing to do currently is not dependant of the underlying animation capabilities.

[THND3RZ]

To the original poster:Why are you not in the dev team ?We need you there :/

[Aure7]

To the original poster:Why are you not in the dev team ?We need you there :/

cause Canada is really far away. .............Buuuuuuuuuut if I was Canadian and actually got offered an internship after university I don't think I could refuse.

[Alphafox]

cause Canada is really far away. .............Buuuuuuuuuut if I was Canadian and actually got offered an internship after university I don't think I could refuse.

You could, but you wouldn't.

[Vyce]

After reading the entire first post, the idea of these suggestions being applied to the game has brought strange and wonderful feelings to my loins.

[taiiat]

-snip-

put on yer thinkin' caps, it's classroom time.

Animations in ALL games are made from a sequence of Key Frames. it is a list of instructions to tell the Mesh to look like N at Y time in the Animation. (note this is time in the Animation, because Animations are traditionally disconnected from the rest of the game)

however, instead of being locked down by Keyframing Animation work, David Rosen (rightly so since it's a two person Development Team) chose to have Key Frames denote the minimum and maximum of an action, and the computer will interpolate the in between.

if you want to have an Animation that has a different style in that system, you create another 13 Key Frames.

the only bounds you're tied to, are physiological ones. it needs to look like a living being, not magic. outside of that, David Rosen can do anything he wants.

there is no loss of personality. more personality can be introduced with separate Animation Sets. Character N might right jab as a direct punch, rotating their entire Torso while doing so.

Character Y might right jab in a less direct manner, with a swing curve to it, and lean the opposite side of the Torso in, rather than rotating towards the strike.

there is no loss of personality. if you wanted a Character to feel timid while attacking, you may very well do so, making each attack less sure of itself, and more reserved.

if you wanted a Character to leave no holds barred, you may very well do so, making each attack vicious and constantly pushing.

if you wanted a Character to flop around like a Tube Man, you may very well do so, taking advantage of the interpolation to add randomness and noise to the Animations, giving the entire Character a wobbly feeling (and much easier and natural than would traditionally be done, you don't need to create a thousand Animation variations, you can have the Computer randomize noise patterns based off of your Key Frames).

thus ends the Classroom.

[Lord-KEK]

To OP and anyone who read my post

Your suggestions are great and indeed they are needed

but i must tell you that on Devstream 50 (2 weeks ago), the devs actually said that the parkour system IS currently been REWORKED/OVERHAULED

they said that this upgrade is expected for Update 17 (U17)

so yeah they are RIGHT NOW working on it

so please BE PATIENT its coming soon...

BE PATIENT

BE PATIENT

 

sorry for been a little rude but this generation of video game players are soo used to the "instant gratification" syndrome...