The procs, the procs

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

I never really paid much attention to elemental and status procs in the game. They were something that might be helpful, but way less important than the raw damage of my weapons and abilities - at least that was my view.

I admit, I am a rather casual player who doesn't really dive into the depths of the game's mechanics or engaging in min-maxing (e.g. I didn't know that abilities like Whipclaw or Blade Storm scale off of the combo counter).

So my direct question is how important are procs (I've especially heard a lot about slash procs)? And should I pay more attention to using them?

[(PSN)Unstar]

My instinct is to say that they are nearly vital, but I should probably downgrade that to saying "they are very good".  If you want to deal damage at higher levels of play, procs like Viral, Corrosive, and Heat are going to go a long way to keeping you in the game.  Viral multiplies the amount of damage you deal to enemies, while corrosive and heat strip away armor (which will increase your damage against armored enemies).  Slash procs bypass armor, while poison procs bypass shields, so when shields and armor start to get really big, these procs can be a shortcut to victory.  Without procs you can still do damage, but in that case you are probably focusing on dealing critical damage.

Generally speaking, most weapons lean towards being good at either critical or status, and so depending on your weapon, if you want to get the most out of it, you'll want to lean into its strengths.

Procs can also be great for CC once enemies start to get durable/strong enough to cause you actual trouble.  Generally it's preferable to use the procs mentioned above to end fights/lives quicker, but if you're still not able to kill quickly enough, procs like Radiation and Blast can at least diminish enemy damage output long enough for you to survive.

[KosmicKerman]

Damage types are important. The status effects of those damage types ("proccing") are also important.  Most people default to using viral following the most recent damage revision because of the status effects of viral damage (increased damage for 6 seconds). Here is a good write up of Warframe's damage model. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage.  If you don't want to get into the nitty gritty you can just look at the tables to see what the strengths/weaknesses are for each damage type and what status they can proc. In terms of "proccing" certain types of physical damage, like slash, that mostly comes down to the base stats of the weapon. Generally speaking, weapons with higher slash damage will be better all things being equal. After the most recent revision to the damage model, I see less value in using mods to favor one type of physical damage over another. I'm sure there are still some niche cases for using slash mods but those seem to be less prevalent. Especially with the changes to shotgun status calculations.

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb KosmicKerman:

Here is a good write up of Warframe's damage model. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage.  If you don't want to get into the nitty gritty you can just look at the tables to see what the strengths/weaknesses are for each damage type and what status they can proc.

Honestly, tables like these and getting at me with numbers in general are largley greek to me. I had that when I was talking about Rivens and how negatives, especially -IPS can actually be beneficial for a weapons's damage output.

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Unstar:

My instinct is to say that they are nearly vital, but I should probably downgrade that to saying "they are very good".  If you want to deal damage at higher levels of play, procs like Viral, Corrosive, and Heat are going to go a long way to keeping you in the game.  Viral multiplies the amount of damage you deal to enemies, while corrosive and heat strip away armor (which will increase your damage against armored enemies).  Slash procs bypass armor, while poison procs bypass shields, so when shields and armor start to get really big, these procs can be a shortcut to victory.  Without procs you can still do damage, but in that case you are probably focusing on dealing critical damage.

Generally speaking, most weapons lean towards being good at either critical or status, and so depending on your weapon, if you want to get the most out of it, you'll want to lean into its strengths.

Procs can also be great for CC once enemies start to get durable/strong enough to cause you actual trouble.  Generally it's preferable to use the procs mentioned above to end fights/lives quicker, but if you're still not able to kill quickly enough, procs like Radiation and Blast can at least diminish enemy damage output long enough for you to survive.

Honestly, I don't really feel like the damage from SLash or Toxin is really that important for killing enemies. I've made use of the Radiation proc so enemies would turn on each other, But in general, it doesn't feel like Toxing, Slash, Corrosive or Heat do contribute as much as people make it to be.

But that's just my filthy casual mind.

[KosmicKerman]

1 minute ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

Honestly, I don't really feel like the damage from SLash or Toxin is really that important for killing enemies. I've made use of the Radiation proc so enemies would turn on each other, But in general, it doesn't feel like Toxing, Slash, Corrosive or Heat do contribute as much as people make it to be.

But that's just my filthy casual mind.

Obviously this will depend on what content you do. A wet fart kills most starchart enemies. For harder enemies, damage type and procced statuses determine how quickly you kill them.

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb KosmicKerman:

Obviously this will depend on what content you do. A wet fart kills most starchart enemies. For harder enemies, damage type and procced statuses determine how quickly you kill them.

I think amongthe hardest I'm doing frequently is SO and Lich hunts. Sorties only on occasion, same with ESO. I am interested in Arbitrations, but at this point, I'm highly insecure if I would even last 1 rotation.

Generally, I do get problems with enemies past certain levels. Up to level 60-70, things are fine, but beyond that, I do get issues killing enemies fast enough to prevent them from killing me.

(I also know that I am hampering myself by foregoing the use of corrupted mods because I'm always afraid of negetive effects of the stat penalty)

[Traumtulpe]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

Honestly, I don't really feel like the damage from SLash or Toxin is really that important for killing enemies. I've made use of the Radiation proc so enemies would turn on each other, But in general, it doesn't feel like Toxing, Slash, Corrosive or Heat do contribute as much as people make it to be.

Armored enemies have been nerfed, previously you absolutely had to reduce an enemy's armor (Corrosive procs), or bypass some/all armor (Slash procs, Corrosive/Radiation damage, depending on enemy).

Nowadays you can get away with whatever until much higher levels. I'll list the useful elements and their purpose for you anyway:

• Slash: The damage is useless, but the proc bypasses armor entirely. Proc can be gained by melee stances or Hunter Munitions regardless of elements.
• Viral: The damage is mediocre, but the proc is top tier. Pairs well with other elements/procs.
• Corrosive: Damage is great against Ferrite armor (certain enemies), proc is good against all armor.
• Radiation: Damage is great against Alloy armor (mostly bosses/heavy enemies), proc is mildly useful in general.
• Toxin: The Damage bypasses shields entirely (with few exceptions), proc is mediocre.
• Magnetic: Only ever useful against shielded enemies immune to Toxin bypass. Generally best off ignored.
• Heat: Damage is useless, the proc is good against armored targets and decent otherwise.

To summarize, ideally you have either Radiation or Corrosive damage against status immune enemies (depending on the armor type), and Viral + Slash + Toxin against everything else. Viral + Slash + Toxin is however not usually possible (there are exceptions), so use Viral + Slash/Heat against armored enemies, and Toxin against shielded ones.

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Traumtulpe:

Armored enemies have been nerfed, previously you absolutely had to reduce an enemy's armor (Corrosive procs), or bypass some/all armor (Slash procs, Corrosive/Radiation damage, depending on enemy).

Nowadays you can get away with whatever until much higher levels. I'll list the useful elements and their purpose for you anyway:

• Slash: The damage is useless, but the proc bypasses armor entirely. Proc can be gained by melee stances or Hunter Munitions regardless of elements.
• Viral: The damage is mediocre, but the proc is top tier. Pairs well with other elements/procs.
• Corrosive: Damage is great against Ferrite armor (certain enemies), proc is good against all armor.
• Radiation: Damage is great against Alloy armor (mostly bosses/heavy enemies), proc is mildly useful in general.
• Toxin: The Damage bypasses shields entirely (with few exceptions), proc is mediocre.
• Magnetic: Only ever useful against shielded enemies immune to Toxin bypass. Generally best off ignored.
• Heat: Damage is useless, the proc is good against armored targets and decent otherwise.

To summarize, ideally you have either Radiation or Corrosive damage against status immune enemies (depending on the armor type), and Viral + Slash + Toxin against everything else. Viral + Slash + Toxin is however not usually possible (there are exceptions), so use Viral + Slash/Heat against armored enemies, and Toxin against shielded ones.

If the damage from the procs really is that low, why should I bother with them? I mean the corrosiva nad radiation effect do have some use, but the other? Idk

[KosmicKerman]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

If the damage from the procs really is that low, why should I bother with them? I mean the corrosiva nad radiation effect do have some use, but the other? Idk

That's not what Traumtulpe said. The analysis separated damage from status procs. The analysis never said "damage from the procs" is low.

People are responding to your original post because they want to help other players. You seem especially argumentative for someone asking for help/advice especially considering you can't be bothered to read the wiki entry on damage. Traumtulpe summarized the statuses for you and made a recommendation. If you want more information read the wiki link in my earlier post.

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb KosmicKerman:

That's not what Traumtulpe said. The analysis separated damage from status procs. The analysis never said "damage from the procs" is low.

People are responding to your original post because they want to help other players. You seem especially argumentative for someone asking for help/advice especially considering you can't be bothered to read the wiki entry on damage. Traumtulpe summarized the statuses for you and made a recommendation. If you want more information read the wiki link in my earlier post.

I apologize. I didn't want to sound dismissive.

I am just utterly confused.

I know there is a difference between damage and proc. And when I say raw damage, i mean what's shown on the stat screen as 'total damage', the damage the weapon does without considering any status procs.

And my comment was meant about the damage dealing procs such as slash and toxin. I know that the debuff effects of radiation or corrosive do have an effect. But the damaging procs like slash or toxin don't really seem be all that noticable compared to the damage the weapon can do by itself (that's the IPS + the elements; just to avoid further misunderstandings), yet I have heard peole talk a great deal about those procs and even call Hunter Munitions, a mod that causes slash procs on critical hit a staple for high crit weapons.

I wanted to understand all of it, but I feel like there was a big misunderstanding; as if we had talked past each other.

P.S. I looked at the table, but I still don't get it.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

If the damage from the procs really is that low, why should I bother with them? I mean the corrosiva nad radiation effect do have some use, but the other? Idk

Bleed (Slash procs) are absolutely busted because they ignore armor. At high levels, they deal more damage to armored targets than your actual hits. Getting a bleed is the difference between tickling and one shots. Bleed doesn't matter at low levels, but certainly does at sortie level.

Damage Modifier = (1+ Armor Modifier)*(1+Health Modifier)*300/(300+Armor*(1-Armor Modifier))

Against a Level 8 Heavy Gunner with 500 ferrite armor, which is 62.5% Damage Reduction.

100 Neutral will deal 37.5.

100 Impact will deal 28. 

100 Puncture will deal 82.

100 Slash will deal 42.

100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.

Against a Base Level 100 Heavy Gunner with ~6000 ferrite armor, which is 95% Damage Reduction.

100 Neutral will deal 5.

100 Impact will deal 3.75.

100 Puncture will deal 13.5.

100 Slash will deal 5.

100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.

Slash damage itself is indeed useless at high levels due to armor, but its proc (Bleed) is the best thing against armor. When damage reduction from armor exceeds 95%, the raw damage on your stat screen becomes rather meaningless.

Edited June 20, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[akots]

1 hour ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

If the damage from the procs really is that low, why should I bother with them? I mean the corrosiva nad radiation effect do have some use, but the other? Idk

Slash procs will one-hit kill any armored enemy you might poteitally encounter if used on a heavy attack melee with forced procs like Reaper prime, Hate, Pennant, etc., including high level veil railjack and anything in lich hunting level 5. Some eximus enemies might be resistant but these are very few, and Nox might take a few strikes, typically no more than 3-5 at level 140. It is necessary to invest 3-4 forma and a lot of endo/credits into upgrading the weapon mods for maximal damage output.

Toxin procs will kill any non-immune corpus very efficiently as they bypass the shields. Mutalist Cernos, Pox, Torid and Acrid essentially provide more or less forced procs with many other weapons having a very high chance for a proc, although forcing-proc weapons require a lot of investment to work well.

All other procs are also useful sometimes as a direct means of powerful damage and sometimes for weakening the enemies as others mentioned.

Edited June 20, 2020 by akots

[akots]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

P.S. I looked at the table, but I still don't get it.

You might want to see for yourself how things work in slow motion. Just go into similacrum and try out some weapons to see the effects. It is basically damage over time.

Edited June 20, 2020 by akots

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb akots:

You might want to see for yourself how things work in slow motion. Just go into similacrum and try out some weapons to see the effects. It is basically damage over time.

I know it's DoT, but to me, it always felt rather minute. I never tried it in simulacrum tho, because I never needed to use simulacrum before.

Edited June 20, 2020 by (PS4)KyomaSatomi

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb DealerOfAbsolutes:

Slash damage itself is indeed useless at high levels due to armor, but its proc (Bleed) is the best thing against armor. When damage reduction from armor exceeds 95%, the raw damage on your stat screen becomes rather meaningless.

I actually thought it was the opposite, the damage from the proc tics being the minute number compared to the damage the weapon does.

And I have a hard time getting it in my head if this isn't the case. Because all those numbers behind games usually make my head spin.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

I actually thought it was the opposite, the damage from the proc tics being the minute number compared to the damage the weapon does.

And I have a hard time getting it in my head if this isn't the case. Because all those numbers behind games usually make my head spin.

Just watch the video I linked. Leyzar goes into detail in the Simulacrum and plainly demonstrates the destructive power of Slash procs and why Hunter Munitions is put on a pedestal by the community. Procs are the key to tackling level 100+ enemies.

There is math involved under the hood, but the Simulacrum allows you to see it for yourself. The modding screen can't be trusted considering how it used to keep track of multishot and etc and doesn't take into account Banes.

If you don't really want to watch, just start at 6:30. 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb DealerOfAbsolutes:

Just watch the video I linked. Leyzar goes into detail in the Simulacrum and plainly demonstrates the destructive power of Slash procs and why Hunter Munitions is put on a pedestal by the community.

There is math involved under the hood, but the Simulacrum allows you to see it for yourself. The modding screen can't be trusted considering how it used to keep track of multishot and etc and doesn't take into account Banes.

If you don't really want to watch, just start at 6:30.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I didn't know that you could get 4-digit damage with only the bleed procs.

But honestly; what do I know about this game anyway?

[Traumtulpe]

I suppose the explanation needs to be more basic.

If you can kill enemies without worrying about status, just stick with that.

Once the level rises enough to make the killing slow, get some viral procs and you'll have an easy time again.

Eventually you weapons will do insignificant damage. They will tickle the enemy, and that is when you have to target enemies weaknesses specifically. You may be unable to kill anything in a sortie with enhanced shields or with physical enhancement. The right element or proc makes this problem go away in an instant.

Furthermore, the damage caused by procs is not necessarily intuitive. Procs can be very ineffective if you do not understand the calculation. A shotgun with 5% status chance per pellet might proc a lot (from the sheer number of hits), but will never deal useful damage with Slash procs (excluding from Hunter Munitions).

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Traumtulpe:

I suppose the explanation needs to be more basic.

If you can kill enemies without worrying about status, just stick with that.

Once the level rises enough to make the killing slow, get some viral procs and you'll have an easy time again.

Eventually you weapons will do insignificant damage. They will tickle the enemy, and that is when you have to target enemies weaknesses specifically. You may be unable to kill anything in a sortie with enhanced shields or with physical enhancement. The right element or proc makes this problem go away in an instant.

Furthermore, the damage caused by procs is not necessarily intuitive. Procs can be very ineffective if you do not understand the calculation. A shotgun with 5% status chance per pellet might proc a lot (from the sheer number of hits), but will never deal useful damage with Slash procs (excluding from Hunter Munitions).

Well, that was a more clear explanation.

I'm sorry for being such a blockhead who can't deal with numbers.

[KosmicKerman]

I'll add one more thing for you. When Viral procs it does 100% damage for 6 seconds, i.e., it doubles your damage. When heat procs it strips 50% of armor and does damage over time for six seconds.  This makes viral heat builds very strong since when both damage types proc they strip 50% of armor and do double damage. 

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb KosmicKerman:

I'll add one more thing for you. When Viral procs it does 100% damage for 6 seconds, i.e., it doubles your damage. When heat procs it strips 50% of armor and does damage over time for six seconds.  This makes viral heat builds very strong since when both damage types proc they strip 50% of armor and do double damage. 

Sounds logical.

[(PSN)KyomaSatomi]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DealerOfAbsolutes:

and why Hunter Munitions is put on a pedestal by the community.

I put it on my Soma P, but it didn't seem to do much. Tho I have to say, I had a Corrosive build and HM was only rank 2 (didn't have much more capacity since the weapon was 0 Forma)

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, (PS4)KyomaSatomi said:

I put it on my Soma P, but it didn't seem to do much. Tho I have to say, I had a Corrosive build and HM was only rank 2 (didn't have much more capacity since the weapon was 0 Forma)

Hunter Munitions is pretty much always used with Viral, and while it technically adds damage regardless of enemy, it only really shines against high level armored enemies - because it's damage is delayed, but not affected by armor at all. If you quickly kill your target regardless, it won't do much.

Corrosive procs reduce armor, Hunter Munitions bypasses armor anyway. That doesn't really make sense together.

[(NSW)Joewoof]

One very important fact that not a lot of people know about is that Corrosive and Radiation ignores 75% of Ferrite and Alloy armor, respectively. Before the rework, armor can reduce your damage up to 95%. If I remember correctly, that would be a Level 88 Grineer Heavy Gunner. Imagine that: 95% damage reduction. That means each hit you do is reduced by 20 times. Using raw Corrosive damage, without any procs, already bypasses a lot of that armor. That means you can do 4-5 times more damage just by using the correct elements.

Now, after the rework, armor is no longer that powerful, but the same mechanics are still in place. Sure, you might have no problem dealing with high-level enemies, but if you did a little research & a bit of preparation, you might be killing them 4 times as fast - and waste far less time in most missions.

[akots]

58 minutes ago, (NSW)Joewoof said:

Now, after the rework, armor is no longer that powerful

It depends on the enemies. For example, Exo Gokstad Officer may be potentially very tanky at, let's say, level 80, which is normal level for most of Railjack veil missions. About 80K health and over 10K armor gives essentially 97% damage reduction and slightly less than 3 million effective hit points, equal to about level 150-160 Corrupted Heavy gunner (according to wiki, not sure how accurate the info is but seems more or less accurate based on testing and my own experience). Still pretty formidable IMHO and generally, corrosive alone is clearly insufficient to take these down expediently.

So, OP clearly needs to prepare at some point as a Soma prime with zero forma won't do. 🙂

Edited June 21, 2020 by akots