Weapon exilus mods

[afoolwithmagic]

I think it would be really nice to have magazine size and reload speed be exilus mods on weapons. It would also be nice if the combo duration mod for snipers [Harkonar Scope] was also an exilus mod. 

[TehGrief]

I support the addition of Magazine Capacity and Reload Speed.

[Tiltskillet]

I'd like this as well.  

...but...certain weapons would need special treatment.  Mag size is a huge increase in practical dps on the Exergis or Nagantaka, for instance, whereas it's far more of a qol mod on most.

[BahamutKaiser]

Fire rate mods too? Mag size and reload speed directly correlate with dps.

More of the less direct mods like explosive radius, beam length, and sniper combo counter would be better. As it stands, projectile speed is one of the only exilus mods impacting damage for weapons with fall off. 

Magazine and reload are not appropriate. 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2020-06-24 at 4:26 AM, afoolwithmagic said:

I think it would be really nice to have magazine size and reload speed be exilus mods on weapons

It would, but too many weapons have direct relationship between DPS and either magazine size (Angstrum, Phantasma, anything with burst mode) or reload (all the bows, Exergis, Tonkor, anything with 1 shot).

On 2020-06-24 at 4:26 AM, afoolwithmagic said:

It would also be nice if the combo duration mod for snipers [Harkonar Scope] was also an exilus mod

Yes.

Also, if projectile speed is Exilus then beam range and explosion size mods should be too.

[Lutesque]

On 2020-07-25 at 4:25 AM, BahamutKaiser said:

Fire rate mods too? Mag size and reload speed directly correlate with dps.

More of the less direct mods like explosive radius, beam length, and sniper combo counter would be better. As it stands, projectile speed is one of the only exilus mods impacting damage for weapons with fall off. 

Magazine and reload are not appropriate. 

Its a weapon... literally everything you slap on it is for the purposes of Better Performance one way or another.

 

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Its a weapon... literally everything you slap on it is for the purposes of Better Performance one way or another.

 

Exilus mods are meant to be for performance-enhancing, non-DPS mods. General idea is, if it boosts damage per second, it's a no-go.

On that note:

On 2020-07-30 at 3:29 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Also, if projectile speed is Exilus then beam range and explosion size mods should be too.

Explosive radius would increase damage by hitting more targets and, as far as I know, increasing fall-off ranges. I think the major difference between that and, say, projectile speed is that the fall-off effect on projectile speed doesn't increase damage in a way the player can't otherwise gain with their own efforts. That is, the damage boost from a projectile speed mod is something you can get without the mod by taking a few steps closer to the enemy. By contrast, if you throw an explosive between two enemies just far enough apart that you can only hit one, adding in the mod means you end up hitting the second, thereby increasing damage, and there isn't a way for the player to get the same effect unmodded. Same goes for if range mods also increase fall-off calculations. It's not too unlike punch through, really: bigger AoE means an ability to hit more targets, and hitting more targets means getting more damage.

(I don't know if that's DE's logic ad verbatim, but it seems to be a reasonable criteria that exilus mods generally meet so far.)

Under that logic, as long as beam length doesn't alter chain distances (and, AFAIK, it doesn't), that should be fine. It's pretty much identical to projectile speed. Sniper combo, likewise, is probably fine for a similar reason as projectile speed: one can compensate by just aiming well. But it does mean AoE boosters would be out.

[Lutesque]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Exilus mods are meant to be for performance-enhancing, non-DPS mods. General idea is, if it boosts damage per second, it's a no-go.

They are the same thing...

 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

10 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

On 2020-07-30 at 11:29 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Also, if projectile speed is Exilus then beam range and explosion size mods should be too.

Explosive radius would increase damage by hitting more targets and, as far as I know, increasing fall-off ranges. I think the major difference between that and, say, projectile speed is that the fall-off effect on projectile speed doesn't increase damage in a way

It does - projectile speed increases range, but also increases the distance at which damage falls off. It's most noticeable with shotguns, but projectile speed will let you hit more targets, further away, and do more damage to them.

10 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

It's not too unlike punch through, really: bigger AoE means an ability to hit more targets

Yeah, maybe, you could well be right. However, when was the last time you could afford the explosion radius mods on an explosive weapon build? They're never more than a nice-to-have, and even as plex mods they are often going to get trumped by ammo mutation.

10 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Under that logic, as long as beam length doesn't alter chain distances (and, AFAIK, it doesn't), that should be fine

It used to, but doesn't now on the Atomos, Kuva Nukor, Amprex or secondary Gaze (the 4 beam weapons that chain). I think it does on the Ocucor's tendrils, but that's its own thing.

 

[Tyreaus]

59 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It does - projectile speed increases range, but also increases the distance at which damage falls off. It's most noticeable with shotguns, but projectile speed will let you hit more targets, further away, and do more damage to them.

As I said, it's about the fact you can compensate for projectile speed by getting closer to the target to get that maximum damage, but you can't really compensate for explosion radius.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

However, when was the last time you could afford the explosion radius mods on an explosive weapon build? They're never more than a nice-to-have, and even as plex mods they are often going to get trumped by ammo mutation.

TBF, in a lot of builds, that goes for a lot of per-second DPS increases like magazine size (especially) and reload speed (less often). They're much bigger nice-to-haves, but even at that level, they're often set aside. But that also makes what does or doesn't count as exilus a bit murky, since there may be some builds (with some weapons) where you could fit a reload speed on, or could get better benefit from it.

That is, it turns into a question of, "where do you draw the line in DPS increases?" Right now, it seems to be drawn as strict as possible. If we start calling that into question, we get an open can of worms wiggling about.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It used to, but doesn't now on the Atomos, Kuva Nukor, Amprex or secondary Gaze (the 4 beam weapons that chain). I think it does on the Ocucor's tendrils, but that's its own thing.

Aye, it used to. Doesn't the Ocucor originate from the weapon itself? If so, it seems equivalent to a range increase.

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

They are the same thing...

Um... Are you meaning to say performance is DPS and DPS is performance?

[Lutesque]

26 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Um... Are you meaning to say performance is DPS and DPS is performance?

Arent They ?

[Tyreaus]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Arent They ?

If they are, then the statement:

13 hours ago, Lutesque said:

literally everything you slap on it is for the purposes of Better Performance one way or another.

Is false, because we can (and often do) put on things like ammo mutation and recoil reduction onto weapons - which certainly don't improve DPS. And then we say those sorts of mods improve weapons in some non-performance way, which leads to saying, "weapon exilus mods are meant to be for non-performance-enhancing mods".

It switches words around, but gets to the same end-point.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

Is false, because we can (and often do) put on things like ammo mutation and recoil reduction onto weapons - which certainly don't improve DPS.

They absolutely improve DPS... 

 

[Tyreaus]

Just now, Lutesque said:

They absolutely improve DPS... 

Hm. In what way does ammo mutation or reserve ammo capacity improve DPS?

[Lutesque]

Just now, Tyreaus said:

Hm. In what way does ammo mutation or reserve ammo capacity improve DPS?

Easy... It gives you more Ammo... cant DPS if you got no Ammo.

See the Kuva Bramma Nerfs for Reference.

[Tyreaus]

2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Easy... It gives you more Ammo... cant DPS if you got no Ammo.

See the Kuva Bramma Nerfs for Reference.

Hm. Then allow me to clarify that DPS as mentioned here is related to average TTK. And thus we would say, in more clear terms, that exilus slots are for mods that don't increase average TTK.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

Hm. Then allow me to clarify that DPS as mentioned here is related to average TTK. And thus we would say, in more clear terms, that exilus slots are for mods that don't increase average TTK.

But They Do....

You will kill more Enemies if you dont run out of Ammo...

[Tyreaus]

Just now, Lutesque said:

But They Do....

Then nothing goes into an Exilus slot. Does this please you?

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Then nothing goes into an Exilus slot. Does this please you?

Nope...

[Tyreaus]

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Nope...

Then draw the line. State your criteria for what does or doesn't count. Because if we are to follow your reasoning as presented thusfar, everything gets packaged together as DPS-increasing. Which means, under current DPS-based criteria, either everything is exilus-compatible, or nothing is. And given the intent behind exilus slots is to encourage the use of less-used mods, they're not going to allow everything.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Then draw the line. State your criteria for what does or doesn't count.

Literally anything.

Just make it a 9th Slot. 🙂

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Because if we are to follow your reasoning as presented thusfar, everything gets packaged together as DPS-increasing. Which means, under current DPS-based criteria, either everything is exilus-compatible, or nothing is. And given the intent behind exilus slots is to encourage the use of less-used mods, they're not going to allow everything.

I have an entirely different Solution to this Problem...

[Tyreaus]

24 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Literally anything.

Just make it a 9th Slot.

Not going to happen for its intended purpose.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Not going to happen for its intended purpose.

The problem is I dont trust DE's Intentions... they proven themselves unreliable and even blatantly dishonest.

So whether they implement it or not Il always want Fire Rate/Reload Speed for Exilus Slot.

More importantly. 

Why is this only for the Rubico ? 

DE knows full well how annoying Weapon Zoom is... every single weapon class should have a minus Zoom Mod.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Not going to happen . . .

Although if primaries and secondaries just got a ninth slot they'd  start to make a lot more sense in comparison to melee.

It's a terrible way to balance, and would disproportionately assist ranged AoE and secondaries, and I agree it's not happening.  Just interesting to think about.

[Tyreaus]

16 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

The problem is I dont trust DE's Intentions... they proven themselves unreliable and even blatantly dishonest.

So your response for them being unreliable and/or dishonest is to ask they go back on their word on focusing exilus mods to clip-by-clip DPS values? That's just a bit defeatist...

13 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Although if primaries and secondaries just got a ninth slot they'd  start to make a lot more sense in comparison to melee

Melee has 8 slots plus the (obviously limited) stance slot, though. The major difference is less in the number of mods / slots, more in the mods each of them get.