How are Catchmoon primaries supposed to work?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

I'm a bit perplexed by this weapon. The secondary is great, and I get that they wanted to do something else (not just another Arca Plasmor) for the primary. Ok, smaller projectile, less damage, but full auto, I can see how that would work.

Only it really, really, really doesn't. Maximum clip size is 13. Max ammo pool about 50. Shotgun ammo comes in packs of 10 and Pax Charge seems incredibly slow, regenerating about 2 shots per second. That would be fine on the secondary, but here means > 5s to refill a magazine that empties almost immediately.

Auto shotguns have a general problem with ammo, but the Catchmoon primary is especially bad.

Build it with the Brash loader and it does half damage but double fire rate, which looks ok until you empty a clip in 2s and spend the same again loading, repeat 4 times and it's empty. Tremor isn't really any better - more damage but a whole lot less usable and now it take 4s to empty the clip.

Thing is, you can test what this weapon would be like without crippling ammo issues, just crack relics until you get the infinite ammo buff and then... meh. It's still not particularly good. This gun would not be OP even if it had infinite ammo all the time.

Am I missing something about how it was supposed to work? To even be close to par with other kitgun weapons (or even its own secondary variant) it needs:

- Clip size increased from 5-13 to 20-50 (depending on loader).

- Ammo pool increasing to 250 (it will still have punishing ammo economy as that's 25x pickups, but that's a bigger problem).

- Pax Charge fixing so that a full clip (of the new larger size) takes around 1.8-3s (on a par with the Fulmin, and depending on loader).

- Increase base damage to around double what it is now.

I'm struggling to see what DE thought the point of a low damage rapid fire weapon with no ammo was.

[-Kittens-]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

 

I'm struggling to see what DE thought the point of a low damage rapid fire weapon with no ammo was.

"Content"

[z3us32610]

Agreed. Catchmoon primary is a bit rough as it is right now, imo. Recoil coupled with a small projectile already makes it a difficult weapon to use. Add to that the lacking damage makes it pretty bad.

We can always hope some changes will be made.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

1 hour ago, z3us32610 said:

Agreed. Catchmoon primary is a bit rough as it is right now, imo. Recoil coupled with a small projectile already makes it a difficult weapon to use. Add to that the lacking damage makes it pretty bad

Well yes, that's what I meant about the Tremor, you have to mod for recoil and the ammo is still crippling. With the Brash it feels much better holding down the trigger, but ½ damage and you can't take advantage of the fire rate because you've already run out of ammo.

1 hour ago, z3us32610 said:

We can always hope some changes will be made

I dunno, they already 'balanced' it once. Someone took a look and thought tiny damage tweaks would help a rapid fire weapon with a tiny clip.

Bigger clip, let it get headshots crit bonuses (it doesn't fire a large enough projectile to deserve the Arca Plasmor nerf), job done.

3 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm struggling to see what DE thought the point of a low damage rapid fire weapon with no ammo was.

"Content"

Yeah, but a not completely broken weapon would have been content too. I'm on X1, we only got these after a fortnight of PC patches, I can't be the first person to say this gun is unusable.

[(PSN)bobvoo3]

My setup is Tremor-Catchmoon-Splat.  11 mag, 70 ammo, reload 1.7 without pax charge.  With Pax charge reload is 1.1, but instead of reloading whole chip like default, it reloads 1 ammo at a time thus making it too slow to make it fun to use.  

Pax on Gaze with 31 mag is really fast.  I expected that it would be the same, but I guess not.  I wonder why.  Such a let down 😞

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On 2020-07-18 at 1:48 AM, (PS4)bobvoo3 said:

My setup is Tremor-Catchmoon-Splat.  11 mag, 70 ammo, reload 1.7 without pax charge.  With Pax charge reload is 1.1, but instead of reloading whole chip like default, it reloads 1 ammo at a time thus making it too slow to make it fun to use.  

Pax on Gaze with 31 mag is really fast.  I expected that it would be the same, but I guess not.  I wonder why.  Such a let down 😞

Because of how Pax Charge is behaving on Primary Catchmoon, I feel that Killstream might be the better loader here. That way you get a faster reload (compromised with 7 in the mag) outside of using Pax Charge. With Chilling Reload that stat goes down even further.

[Luciole77]

i built 2 catchmoon one with tremor, another with shrewd...both with 6/7 formas and they are same way...slow, low damage, small projectiles...a very weird weapon i can tell....i feel i lost 2 potatoes and formas for nothing! Both with high recoil and poor damage area/projectile.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2020-07-18 at 6:48 AM, (PS4)bobvoo3 said:

My setup is Tremor-Catchmoon-Splat.  11 mag, 70 ammo, reload 1.7 without pax charge

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Because of how Pax Charge is behaving on Primary Catchmoon, I feel that Killstream might be the better loader here

 

53 minutes ago, Luciole77 said:

i built 2 catchmoon one with tremor, another with shrewd

I've tried a couple. I can't figure out how any of them are expected to work by DE. The Tremor does more damage, but not enough to fire slowly and too much recoil to fire fast. Brash is a lot more usable, but needs to keep firing to get the DPS up and immediately runs out of ammo. I find the Brash OK for Meso/Neo level relic enemies when you get the infinite ammo void perk - for a minute it feels great. Same thing on requiem relics just feels like splashing harmlessly and without the perk most enemies take more than a clip.

It's the magazine that kills it - the numbers are the same as the slow-firing high-damage secondary (Pax Charge's slow rate too), and they're fine on that. You just can't make a full auto weapon work with that tiny clip size. Most builds end up with a clip size of 7 or 11 (as the 5 and 13 variants don't get the max status or crit), but to be usable it needs to be in the same ball-park as the Boar or Sobek (the other two full-auto shotguns) both of which have a clip of 20 (and the Sobek 240 max ammo).

Really I think the Tremor should be a regular slow fire shotgun with much more damage, a big version of the secondary, while the Brash needs to be a rifle and use rifle crit/fire rate mods and rifle ammo.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It's the magazine that kills it - the numbers are the same as the slow-firing high-damage secondary (Pax Charge's slow rate too), and they're fine on that. You just can't make a full auto weapon work with that tiny clip size. Most builds end up with a clip size of 7 or 11 (as the 5 and 13 variants don't get the max status or crit), but to be usable it needs to be in the same ball-park as the Boar or Sobek (the other two full-auto shotguns) both of which have a clip of 20 (and the Sobek 240 max ammo).

While I agree it’s important to increase the mag size overall, it’s important to note that Primary Catchmoon is different from Boar and Sobek that should make their categorizations less comparable. Boar and Sobek are both pellet-based shotties that are advantageous to their dps-output, whereas Catchmoon is a single-slug that has infinite enemy punchthrough.

The unfortunate scenario that Primary Catchmoon is that it’s a combination of Arca Plasmor’s infinite punchthrough, that has a lower overall damage (even with Tremor) than Boar Prime, with a projectile size that is relatable to Fulmin - if not smaller. It’s a weird amalgamation of these features that I feel that we cannot affirm a similar approach to Boar and Sobek’s form factor but to that of Arca Plasmor and Fulmin.

Ultimately, while I do feel that a mag size increase is appropriate the waning issue with Primary Catchmoon is that it needs a higher base damage that makes it appropriate as a single-slug, infinite punchthrough gun that is comparable to Arca Plasmor/Fulmin while being an automatic shotgun. It’s projectile size needs to be increased slightly, even if damage fall-off is hampered. It’s performance is below that threshold, even with the damage fall-off increase.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

While I agree it’s important to increase the mag size overall, it’s important to note that Primary Catchmoon is different from Boar and Sobek that should make their categorizations less comparable. Boar and Sobek are both pellet-based shotties that are advantageous to their dps-output, whereas Catchmoon is a single-slug that has infinite enemy punchthrough

Yes. They do more damage, get more procs, less innate body-punch-through. I feel that's already reflected by the damage difference.

But let's compare it to the other body-punch-through guns.

The secondary Catchmoon can do 450, but gets the amazing secondary crit mods. The primary Catchmoon with a Tremor does just 216, compared to the Arca Plasmor's 600 or Fulmin's 500, but the Fulmin is a rifle and gets better crit and fire rate mods.

So a Tremor Catchmoon needs about 3 shots to match a single Arca Plasmor blast, the Brash needs 6. That's OK if they're firing fast, but the Tremor has more recoil than the Plasmor, and both Brash and Tremor have the same magazine size which is about the same as the Plasmor's (which is 10).

For the Brash to match the damage done by the Arca Plasmor over a clip it would need a magazine of 50-60 to match a magazine of 10. The Tremor would need 20-30.

And while once meta it's not like the Arca Plasmor is particularly good now. It excels at clearing star chart mobs, but falls off around sortie levels. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Ultimately, while I do feel that a mag size increase is appropriate the waning issue with Primary Catchmoon is that it needs a higher base damage that makes it appropriate as a single-slug, infinite punchthrough gun that is comparable to Arca Plasmor/Fulmin while being an automatic shotgun

Yeah. I don't think the primary Catchmoon needs loads more damage, if it had the magazine to maintain it, then it does have the fire rate to match the DPS of the Arca Plasmor.

The question then becomes whether kitguns should be more powerful than MR10 clan tech.

I think it might be enough if those smaller Catchmoon projectiles were able to get headshot crits.

[TnaneverRisen]

On 2020-07-03 at 6:17 AM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm a bit perplexed by this weapon. The secondary is great, and I get that they wanted to do something else (not just another Arca Plasmor) for the primary. Ok, smaller projectile, less damage, but full auto, I can see how that would work.

Only it really, really, really doesn't. Maximum clip size is 13. Max ammo pool about 50. Shotgun ammo comes in packs of 10 and Pax Charge seems incredibly slow, regenerating about 2 shots per second. That would be fine on the secondary, but here means > 5s to refill a magazine that empties almost immediately.

Auto shotguns have a general problem with ammo, but the Catchmoon primary is especially bad.

Build it with the Brash loader and it does half damage but double fire rate, which looks ok until you empty a clip in 2s and spend the same again loading, repeat 4 times and it's empty. Tremor isn't really any better - more damage but a whole lot less usable and now it take 4s to empty the clip.

Thing is, you can test what this weapon would be like without crippling ammo issues, just crack relics until you get the infinite ammo buff and then... meh. It's still not particularly good. This gun would not be OP even if it had infinite ammo all the time.

Am I missing something about how it was supposed to work? To even be close to par with other kitgun weapons (or even its own secondary variant) it needs:

- Clip size increased from 5-13 to 20-50 (depending on loader).

- Ammo pool increasing to 250 (it will still have punishing ammo economy as that's 25x pickups, but that's a bigger problem).

- Pax Charge fixing so that a full clip (of the new larger size) takes around 1.8-3s (on a par with the Fulmin, and depending on loader).

- Increase base damage to around double what it is now.

I'm struggling to see what DE thought the point of a low damage rapid fire weapon with no ammo was.

 

Agreed on all points.  Catchmoon primary is mostly garbage, but garbage with very cool looking projectiles.
The key problem is what you bolded - even if the weapon had infinite ammo, it still sucks.  This compounds the problem of very limited ammo reserves and the bad Pax Charge arcane.

They need to decide what the gun is supposed to be.  If they want to keep the severe ammo limitations, then each shot needs to count for a lot - maybe 3.5x base damage ... or just fix the ammo/arcane issues and give it 2x base damage to make it worthwhile compared to the other primaries.

Regarding ammo pickups in general - they could just be smart and make ammo fill a % of a weapon's modded max reserves, so it would automatically be mostly balanced by damage per shot and fire rate.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

9 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Regarding ammo pickups in general - they could just be smart and make ammo fill a % of a weapon's modded max reserves, so it would automatically be mostly balanced by damage per shot and fire rate.

It's a nice idea, but weapons often have small ammo pools as a utility-downside.

For instance, the Akarius has a pool of 20 shots and a mag of 10. It's basically unusable without ammo mutation. It's getting ½ it's ammo pool per ammo pickup. At the other end of the scale the Kohm has 960 max ammo, so gets a little over 1% of it's ammo pool per ammo pack (even a maxed Primed Shotgun Ammo Mutation won't keep it going long).

I'd say ammo packs should be magazine sized, which would fix the Akarius and Kohm nicely, but leave all the single shot weapons (Exergis, Tonka, all the bows) in a mess (except for the Lenz and Bramma as they already do that). I'd say take the larger of (say) 10% of the ammo pool or 1 full clip, but ...

I don't think DE want that, it's clear that they design for ammo economy, having recently used it as an explicit nerf for the Bramma. I'm fairly sure the Akarius and Kohm are supposed to have painful ammo issues. 

Which brings us back to the primary Catchmoon. The Akarius, Kohm and Bramma are all DPS monsters, either for their MR (the Akarius is just MR8) or against the entire weapons selection (the Kuva Kohm and Bramma being right at the top of the raw DPS table). You can see why these are offset by ammo issues. But the Catchmoon? It does nowhere near enough damage to have this ammo handicap.

[(XBOX)Purdue Wolf]

The catchmoon is a decent primary with a riven and laser sights.  I recommend using pax charge for ammo effiency.

[ZiIIion]

Use Motus Setup to bring up its Critical and Status Chance. Granted, it's a poor band-aid solution to a underperforming weapon, yes. But it can help boost its damage and utility somewhat.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

4 hours ago, (XB1)StripedWolf2001 said:

The catchmoon is a decent primary with a riven and laser sights

 

3 hours ago, R.O.G.U.E. said:

Use Motus Setup to bring up its Critical and Status Chance. Granted

With these rare and acolyte mods almost any shotgun is more powerful. They don't lift the Catchmoon primary up to any other crit shotgun. It's still low base damage, no innate multishot, no headshot multipliers and tiny magazine. Any other crit or hybrid shotgun is better with those mods than the Catchmoon is.

I've also tried it with R5 Arcane Avenger, but that doesn't really help any more than it would any weapon.

4 hours ago, (XB1)StripedWolf2001 said:

I recommend using pax charge for ammo effiency

Do you? Really? Have you actually tried it? I have, and mention it in the original post...

On 2020-07-03 at 2:17 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Pax Charge seems incredibly slow, regenerating about 2 shots per second

It's useless. You won't run out of ammo, but you'll also be waiting ages between weak shots. It recharges at the same rate as the secondary variant, which shoots a much larger and more damaging projectile.

Pax Charge (which I've tried maxed) is useless on the Catchmoon primary.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On 2020-07-20 at 2:12 PM, (XB1)StripedWolf2001 said:

The catchmoon is a decent primary with a riven and laser sights.  I recommend using pax charge for ammo effiency.

Pax Charge on the Catchmoon Primary makes its reload mechanic similar to the Strun. Sure it gives it unlimited ammo, but it’s hardly ammo efficient considering that the overall base damage of the Catchmoon Primary is incredibly weak (even at the expense of increased damage fall-off range), is an automatic shottie, and only shoots a single projectile shot as opposed to pellets.

Take into account that it’s an automatic slug shotgun with weak base damage, and it reloads like a Strun. That’s an immediate flag that it’s not ammo efficient. It’s actually faster and more ammo efficient to slap on a Vigilante Supplies/Shotgun Ammo Mutation mod onto the Pexilis slot than it is to use Pax Charge for the Primary Catchmoon.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Pax Charge on the Catchmoon Primary makes its reload mechanic similar to the Strun

I think the best comparison there is the Fulmin. Similar but larger projectile that does 3x-5x as much damage (depending on components) and slower semi-auto fire.

The Fulmin recharges ammo too, in less than ½ the time it takes a Catchmoon. It's significantly less painful because 1 Fulmin blast will kill your target, while Catchmoon needs to empty the clip.

For Pax Charge to be worthwhile it needs to fill the entire clip in about 2s from empty 

7 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Take into account that it’s an automatic slug shotgun with weak base damage, and it reloads like a Strun

On the Strun and the base Corinth this isn't a bad thing, you can get a rythym where you fire between shell reloads, so although the full reload is slow you can fire again very quickly, if you need to.

Pax Charge has a delay, so if you fire before it's fully loaded you have to wait again, it can't do the Corinth/Strun thing where you run out of shots, slam 1 shell in and finish off the enemy. Instead you run out, jump away to wait out the slow reload, jump back, repeat.

And yes, shell loading in part works on the Corinth/Strun because they do a lot of damage per shot. Get one shell in a Corinth and fire and it does as much damage as most of a Catchmoon clip (which needs 5 shots and still won't get as many proc chances).

7 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

It’s actually faster and more ammo efficient to slap on a Vigilante Supplies/Shotgun Ammo Mutation mod onto the Pexilis slot

Yes, this is enough to mostly get away without ammo pads and deal with the small ammo pool. Needs lots of forma to have space for it though.

However, that doesn't fix the crippling clip size issues, and if you use reload and clip size mods to fix that you a) do even less damage and b) find that isn't enough and you run out of ammo because you're firing more and c) still don't have a particularly good gun.

 

[(XBOX)Purdue Wolf]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Pax Charge on the Catchmoon Primary makes its reload mechanic similar to the Strun. Sure it gives it unlimited ammo, but it’s hardly ammo efficient considering that the overall base damage of the Catchmoon Primary is incredibly weak (even at the expense of increased damage fall-off range), is an automatic shottie, and only shoots a single projectile shot as opposed to pellets.

Take into account that it’s an automatic slug shotgun with weak base damage, and it reloads like a Strun. That’s an immediate flag that it’s not ammo efficient. It’s actually faster and more ammo efficient to slap on a Vigilante Supplies/Shotgun Ammo Mutation mod onto the Pexilis slot than it is to use Pax Charge for the Primary Catchmoon.

I'm not disagreeing with what you have suggested, but keep in mind that at really high lvls it will be hard to kill enemies; which, means ammo drops will not be as plentiful for vigilante supplies.

That's why I was suggesting pax charge over pax seeker or the other two arcanes.