vulpaphyla and Predasite breeding feedback/bugs

[morningstar999]

Ok the biggest issue I am seeing is extra, and somewhat unnecessary GRIND. 

Whilst it is a great that the effects of each mutagen/antigen is carried on through 100% when mixing  -in order to make a fully gened kavat or kubrow takes a minimum of four breedings  (+ an extra if you then want prints/to use the fully gened pet) so 50 son tokens, not to mention you have to incubate using cores, eggs/codes, ( multiply that with 6 breed types of each infested pet) then that's an awful lot of work and grind if you want a fully gened pet. Changing it so you do not need to guild each pet to take prints would cut down the extra and unnecessary work and make it considerably more accessible.  

on the one hand you could ignore the antigen's and just use more forma, (as the resistances from mutagen are most important) but that still requires two full guildings, ( realistically three if you want to use the mixed pet) for each type. 
correction you can't use two mutigens on one pet so it still would take like four breedings, as there's 4 of them. 
 

also consider the rng factor of the tails/accessories that someone may want.

>>>>  This is far more work than any other kavat and kubrow, meaning a lot of people are not going to bother, which means they'll end up ignored like a lot of companions. 

Bugs found so far: 

Mutagen resistances don't apply.

You can infect an infested kavat, and take a vasca imprint from it but then you can't use that imprint for anything, so I am guessing you're not supposed to be able to infect an vulpaphyla. 

Vulaphyla kavats made with Son only allow two imprints, whilst a mixed one allows three. 

imprints are not tradable, though should be  (comes up with failed when you try to put the imprint in) when selecting imprints in trade the template code picture also doesn't show, its just a blank box. 

icon doesn't show on imprints

 

 

Things to note in regards to the new infested mixing (this is mainly for players interested in breeding):
You still need a core and 10 kavat dna to make it, and you can't name until you guild. you can't mix with a normal kavat.

So we have: Dominant genes: (ones that are visible) and Recessive genes: (not visible but effects are still in play)

So far I have found they seem to take (50/50 odds) both the mutigen/antigen from one parent in terms of what shows  visually (so dominant) and doesn't seem to mix and match BUT I haven't bred enough to 100% prove this. all other mutigen/antigen carries on 100% but does not have a visual affect. (but the polarity and resistance still applies) 

Currently not known if a recessive gene has a chance to become dominant (I.E visible) with further mixing, (though I suspect not)

Seems to be a 50/50 chance when mixing on what color will come though on what parent, (including energy colors) ones brought from son always have the same colors/energy.

 

if anyone else has feedback/found bugs etc please comment!
x https://discord.gg/w8uH4mF

related to pets in general this is also a big issue.

 

[morningstar999]

you can't see what mutigens/anitgens a pet has on the imprints, this means scamming could very likely be an issue. (and even just remembering for sharing and that could be difficult, as theres no inications what so ever) 

[Steel_Rook]

So... At the risk of coming across a little rude... I have absolutely no idea what you said here, but it made me lose any interest in breeding Infested Kubrows and Kavats. Is the system seriously that complicated and resource-intensive? And random? God, now I'm reminded of why I wanted to never touch Kubrows again a few years ago when I went to read up on how they worked...

[morningstar999]

19 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

So... At the risk of coming across a little rude... I have absolutely no idea what you said here, but it made me lose any interest in breeding Infested Kubrows and Kavats. Is the system seriously that complicated and resource-intensive? And random? God, now I'm reminded of why I wanted to never touch Kubrows again a few years ago when I went to read up on how they worked...

it's not really totally random as mutigens/antigens carry over 100% (though cosmetically its more random)   BUT it is a 1000% more work in terms of time, standing, resources for a very minor added benefit, enough so 99.8% of players are not going to bother with anything more than just getting a standard one from son. I have no idea why DE  thought this was remotely going to be something people would want to do. 

[Caoin]

Would like to add the question of whether the imprints were meant to be tradable or not, as they currently are not tradable but seem to be labeled as tradable?

Also want to echo the sentiment that not being able to see the numbers on the resistances and vulnerabilities provided by the mutagens in game is kind of annoying. On a similar note, a better explanation of how the mutagens and antigens stack when combining might also clear up some questions.

[morningstar999]

38 minutes ago, Caoin said:

Would like to add the question of whether the imprints were meant to be tradable or not, as they currently are not tradable but seem to be labeled as tradable?

Also want to echo the sentiment that not being able to see the numbers on the resistances and vulnerabilities provided by the mutagens in game is kind of annoying. On a similar note, a better explanation of how the mutagens and antigens stack when combining might also clear up some questions.

I would say this is a bug yes

 

[GalactiaMage]

Just to be clear when you say "infested kubrow/kavat," you mean predasite and vulpaphyla right? We can't pass mutations to our normal pets right? If mutagen resistances don't stack then I only care about appearances. Are multiple antigen mutations physically expressed? I think you said they aren't as well but I wasn't sure. If not, and mutagen resistances don't stack, there's not much point to breed them when you can pick which traits you want during revivification, aside from selling the "pre-forma'd" genetic templates with multiple antigens, which don't appear on the templates and we apparently cannot trade right now. 

I haven't done any testing myself because I haven't gilded a predasite or vulpaphyla yet as I've been playing mainly solo missions with them since I first got them about a week ago. Which made me remember something I haven't had to deal with since leveling the MOA from Fortuna: companions don't gain affinity from your own kills. This means that if I want to guild them quickly to get imprints I should just kind of... stand around and watch other people level up my pet for me.

Also, Morningstar your name sounds familiar. Did you happen to make a comprehensive kubrow breeding guide way back when? I remember it being really helpful for understanding build/pattern rarities.

[morningstar999]

On 2020-11-24 at 12:07 AM, GalactiaMage said:

Just to be clear when you say "infested kubrow/kavat," you mean predasite and vulpaphyla right? We can't pass mutations to our normal pets right? If mutagen resistances don't stack then I only care about appearances. Are multiple antigen mutations physically expressed? I think you said they aren't as well but I wasn't sure. If not, and mutagen resistances don't stack, there's not much point to breed them when you can pick which traits you want during revivification, aside from selling the "pre-forma'd" genetic templates with multiple antigens, which don't appear on the templates and we apparently cannot trade right now. 

I haven't done any testing myself because I haven't gilded a predasite or vulpaphyla yet as I've been playing mainly solo missions with them since I first got them about a week ago. Which made me remember something I haven't had to deal with since leveling the MOA from Fortuna: companions don't gain affinity from your own kills. This means that if I want to guild them quickly to get imprints I should just kind of... stand around and watch other people level up my pet for me.

Also, Morningstar your name sounds familiar. Did you happen to make a comprehensive kubrow breeding guide way back when? I remember it being really helpful for understanding build/pattern rarities.

yeah the predasite and vulpaphylas 

you can get all four resistances on on pet through breeding, but you can't stack the same type multiple times.  

only one mutagen and one antigen is dominant (aka) visible at one time, its 50/50 when mixing which tail + other feature will carry visually.  (and it seems to pic both things from one parent only for some reason) 

 

 

yeah that breeding guide was me, I still do breeding and kubrow/kavat related things but it tends to be all on my breeders discord server (where a bunch of us all work on stuff together)

https://discord.gg/w8uH4mF

anyone is welcome to join and we are nearly at 3k members. :P 
 

 

[GalactiaMage]

2 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

yeah the predasite and vulpaphylas 

you can get all four resistances on on pet through breeding, but you can't stack the same type multiple times.  

only one mutagen and one antigen is dominant (aka) visible at one time, its 50/50 when mixing which tail + other feature will carry visually.  (and it seems to pic both things from one parent only for some reason) 

 

 

yeah that breeding guide was me, I still do breeding and kubrow/kavat related things but it tends to be all on my breeders discord server (where a bunch of us all work on stuff together)

https://discord.gg/w8uH4mF

anyone is welcome to join and we are nearly at 3k members. :P 
 

 

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe I'll join the discord.

Thats too bad we can't have multiple antigen "accessory" mutations. Looks like I'll just be breeding for the resistance combinations I want and whatever extra antigens I can get at the same time. Then I'll have to breed the mixed pet with a fresh one with the appearance I want and hope it selects the "purebred" as the parent to inherit from. If I don't get it I can take new imprints and try again... once I gild them. Oh boy. Gonna be making a lot of donations to Son in the future.

I'll probably only breed one super predasite then figure out what I want to do with all the extra imprints and not even bother breeding the vulpaphylas because getting kavat genetic samples is such a hassle. I've got like 22 or so kubrow eggs and 11 incubator cores (they were my argon sink for a while until I started running out of credits) lying around already so predasites will be just a waiting game until I'm done. Waiting for imprinting, incubation, gilding... repeat for the parent.

If the pets from breeding were born pre-gilded, or didn't need to be gilded to take imprints, that'd fix my issues with the system 

[weirdee]

Wait, so how do the resistances stack? I don't understand how it works. Do they just have all of the resistances and weaknesses active at the same time in the health pool???

[GalactiaMage]

32 minutes ago, weirdee said:

Wait, so how do the resistances stack? I don't understand how it works. Do they just have all of the resistances and weaknesses active at the same time in the health pool???

I have no idea. I'm going off of the assumption that they have a neutral health class (like Tenno Flesh) and the resistances/weaknesses are all additive.

[Amoral_Support]

Just to clarify, does cross breeding different subspecies work?  Can you mix a Sly and a Panzer and have an offspring that uses both mods?

[Vthor]

On 2020-11-29 at 7:48 AM, GalactiaMage said:

I have no idea. I'm going off of the assumption that they have a neutral health class (like Tenno Flesh) and the resistances/weaknesses are all additive.

Just to add to this discussion. So it's noted in the official forums :) . The Mutagens (stacked or not) dont seem to apply resistances after checking it out with a Scanner. Here's a video of me checking how it works. This might be just a UI bug. But who knows. since we have no official/proper way of confirming this.

(video when viewed in YT has timestamps and describes what the first part was for) 

 

11 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

Just to clarify, does cross breeding different subspecies work?  Can you mix a Sly and a Panzer and have an offspring that uses both mods?

Crossbreeding works. But offspring cannot use another species' mods.

Example: Panzer and Sly are the parents.  Offspring is a panzer and cannot use Sly Vulpaphyla Precepts

 

[Amoral_Support]

1 hour ago, Vthor said:

Just to add to this discussion. So it's noted in the official forums :) . The Mutagens (stacked or not) dont seem to apply resistances after checking it out with a Scanner. Here's a video of me checking how it works. This might be just a UI bug. But who knows. since we have no official/proper way of confirming this. 

 

Crossbreeding works. But offspring cannot use another species' mods.

Example: Panzer and Sly are the parents.  Offspring is a panzer and cannot use Sly Vulpaphyla Precepts

 

I hope that its just a UI bug and is further addressed. I can personally confirm that polarities get transfered. If you decided to breed a  Vulpaphyla and dont already have one forma'd up its useful. Having already spent the forma on my Panzer its kind of annoying, but oh well.

 

Kinda sucks that I cant equip the unique precepts on a crossbred pet. I feel like if you are going to put the time in to breed Vulpaphyla or Predasites that would be the ideal pay off for your time investment.

Its also worth mentioning that breeding all 4 mutagen traits onto a single pet would be a bad idea. Giving the pet 75% weakness to radiation, viral and magnetic would make more vulnerable to damage than just giving it ... i dunno Clone Flesh and Proto Shield traits? Possibly Proto/Alloy traits would be best. Have to actually do the math on that one.

Im assuming that the traits still only apply to the pets flesh rather than too shields, armor or flesh. 

[Finedaible]

Has anyone been able to verify if pets receive the weaknesses from a mutagen or how they stack (additive vs multiplied)? I was about to breed for mutagen inheritance but if the pets receive the weaknesses too it could be a bad idea to stack all of the mutagens because you could actually end up with a weaker pet for some damage types.

[morningstar999]

21 hours ago, Finedaible said:

Has anyone been able to verify if pets receive the weaknesses from a mutagen or how they stack (additive vs multiplied)? I was about to breed for mutagen inheritance but if the pets receive the weaknesses too it could be a bad idea to stack all of the mutagens because you could actually end up with a weaker pet for some damage types.

no one knows and its no real way to confirm it unless DE tells us? 
 

but its safe to assume that they carry the weaknesses as well. 

 

heres how they stack/affect each other in theory : 
credit goes to @DarkOvion for this. 

 

Single Mutagen Resistances: 

Double Mutagen Resistances:
Triple Mutagen Resistances:
Quad Mutagen Resistances:
It is unknown how Toxin bypassing Proto Shield, and True bypassing Alloy Armour will affect / be affected by combined resistances and weakness

[Finedaible]

Thanks for the updated information @morningstar999. I hope someone on the dev team can clarify this soon. The Proto shield modifiers applying to health pool is particularly confusing. 

[Finedaible]

This may have been discussed elsewhere, but I just realized something that may be missing from those tables.

We have been assuming that pet shield, health, and armor types are all neutral (Tenno) but I think this assumption may be wrong. The reason I think so is because if you aim a scanner at a Moa companion, it shows its health type as Robotic with all the associated resistances, unlike infested companions which shows Flesh properties instead. So in the case of Infested companions we may have to consider the modifiers from Shields (non-proto), Flesh (non-cloned), and Ferrite armor in those tables as well. This might also explain why pets die so easily since these default resistances would be quite terrible across the board. This does not change the overall assumption that Alloy + Proto is the better combination though, however it does make them very susceptible to Impact damage which is a very common damage type so that might be something to consider.

[morningstar999]

On 2020-12-23 at 3:41 AM, Finedaible said:

This may have been discussed elsewhere, but I just realized something that may be missing from those tables.

We have been assuming that pet shield, health, and armor types are all neutral (Tenno) but I think this assumption may be wrong. The reason I think so is because if you aim a scanner at a Moa companion, it shows its health type as Robotic with all the associated resistances, unlike infested companions which shows Flesh properties instead. So in the case of Infested companions we may have to consider the modifiers from Shields (non-proto), Flesh (non-cloned), and Ferrite armor in those tables as well. This might also explain why pets die so easily since these default resistances would be quite terrible across the board. This does not change the overall assumption that Alloy + Proto is the better combination though, however it does make them very susceptible to Impact damage which is a very common damage type so that might be something to consider.

 

very possible yes but we just dont know with DE ignoring it. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

On 2020-12-19 at 4:09 PM, Finedaible said:

Has anyone been able to verify if pets receive the weaknesses from a mutagen or how they stack (additive vs multiplied)? I was about to breed for mutagen inheritance but if the pets receive the weaknesses too it could be a bad idea to stack all of the mutagens because you could actually end up with a weaker pet for some damage types.

It’s impossible to determine as mutagens have been bugged since release to not apply.

[morningstar999]

On 2020-12-24 at 1:21 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

It’s impossible to determine as mutagens have been bugged since release to not apply.

they have? has this been proven?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Yes. For Robotic or Alloy Armor mutagens, you can take an Eviscerator (or Butcher) and have hit your pet. Eviscerators and Butchers do pure slash damage. Eviscerators do 45 damage at lvl 1, Butchers do 30. Robotic and Alloy Armor both resist slash, (-25% and -50% respectively) while Ferrite Armor and Flesh have a -15% and +25% respectively. I'll be using Alloy Armor for my examples and a level 1 Eviscerator. If your pet is killing the enemy too fast or its having issues breaking shields, a level 47 Eviscerator has 300 base damage, so you just replace the 45 in all the equations following with 300.
Predasite/Vulpaphylas have 50 base armor, so if the synthesis scanner is correct and mutagens don't work,
you'd expect it to take 45 x 1.25 x 0.85 x 300/(1.15 x 50 + 300) = 40 damage

If they do apply, and replace the base health class, for Alloy Armor I'd expect it to take 45 x 0.5 x 0.85 x 300/(1.15 x 50 +300) = 16 damage
If they do apply, but are additive to base health class, for Alloy Armor I'd expect it to take 45 x 0.75 x 0.85 x 300/(1.15 x 50 + 300) = 24 damage
If they do apply, but are multiplicative to base health class, for Alloy Armor I'd expect it to take 45 x 1.25 x 0.5 x 0.85 x 300/(1.15 x 50 + 300) = 20 damage.

If they do apply, but replace the base armor class, for Alloy Armor I'd expect it to take 45 x 1.25 x 0.5 x 300/(1.5 x 50 + 300) = 22 or 23 damage
If they do apply, but are additive to the base armor class, for Alloy Armor I'd expect it to take 45 x 1.25 x 0.35 x 300/(1.65 x 50 + 300) = 15 damage
If they do apply, but are multiplicative to the base armor class, for Alloy Armor I'd expect it to take 45 x 1.25 x 0.85 x 0.5 x 300/(1.425 x 50 +300) = 16 damage.

I always get the first option, 40 damage (or ~268 at level 47).
I'd include a clip, but I'm not able to get to my console right now, but I'll get one within 24 hours if you'd like one and/or are unable to perform the test yourself.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

@morningstar999 here's a Chiten mutagen predasite vs a lvl 47 Eviscerator https://streamable.com/bhcg06

First hit takes it from 988 to 720 health, so 268 damage damage, which is the predicted value ( 300 x 1.25 x 0.85 x 300/(1.15 x 50 + 300) = 267.5) for mutagens not working.

[morningstar999]

On 2020-12-31 at 9:56 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

@morningstar999 here's a Chiten mutagen predasite vs a lvl 47 Eviscerator https://streamable.com/bhcg06

First hit takes it from 988 to 720 health, so 268 damage damage, which is the predicted value ( 300 x 1.25 x 0.85 x 300/(1.15 x 50 + 300) = 267.5) for mutagens not working.

yeah a couple other people tried it out and confirmed its not really working which sucks. 
 

[morningstar999]

On 2020-11-20 at 3:32 PM, morningstar999 said:

Ok the biggest issue I am seeing is extra, and somewhat unnecessary GRIND. 

Whilst it is a great that the effects of each mutagen/antigen is carried on through 100% when mixing  -in order to make a fully gened kavat or kubrow takes a minimum of four breedings  (+ an extra if you then want prints/to use the fully gened pet) so 50 son tokens, not to mention you have to incubate using cores, eggs/codes, ( multiply that with 6 breed types of each infested pet) then that's an awful lot of work and grind if you want a fully gened pet. Changing it so you do not need to guild each pet to take prints would cut down the extra and unnecessary work and make it considerably more accessible.  

on the one hand you could ignore the antigen's and just use more forma, (as the resistances from mutagen are most important) but that still requires two full guildings, ( realistically three if you want to use the mixed pet) for each type. 
correction you can't use two mutigens on one pet so it still would take like four breedings, as there's 4 of them. 
 

also consider the rng factor of the tails/accessories that someone may want.

>>>>  This is far more work than any other kavat and kubrow, meaning a lot of people are not going to bother, which means they'll end up ignored like a lot of companions. 

Bugs found so far: 

Mutagen resistances don't apply. 

You can infect an infested kavat, and take a vasca imprint from it but then you can't use that imprint for anything, so I am guessing you're not supposed to be able to infect an vulpaphyla. 

Vulaphyla kavats made with Son only allow two imprints, whilst a mixed one allows three. 

imprints are not tradable, though should be  (comes up with failed when you try to put the imprint in) when selecting imprints in trade the template code picture also doesn't show, its just a blank box. 

icon doesn't show on imprints

 

 

Things to note in regards to the new infested mixing (this is mainly for players interested in breeding):
You still need a core and 10 kavat dna to make it, and you can't name until you guild. you can't mix with a normal kavat.

So we have: Dominant genes: (ones that are visible) and Recessive genes: (not visible but effects are still in play)

So far I have found they seem to take (50/50 odds) both the mutigen/antigen from one parent in terms of what shows  visually (so dominant) and doesn't seem to mix and match BUT I haven't bred enough to 100% prove this. all other mutigen/antigen carries on 100% but does not have a visual affect. (but the polarity and resistance still applies) 

Currently not known if a recessive gene has a chance to become dominant (I.E visible) with further mixing, (though I suspect not)

Seems to be a 50/50 chance when mixing on what color will come though on what parent, (including energy colors) ones brought from son always have the same colors/energy.

 

if anyone else has feedback/found bugs etc please comment!
x https://discord.gg/w8uH4mF

related to pets in general this is also a big issue.