Give completionists a chance to hit the cap of current Nightwave

[Radu10]

2 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

So what if you can't have a static timer? If you know the time of one fissure and the cycle length, you can easily figure out when to expect the next fissure (see my previous post).

And what does my time in-game have to do with anything? I seem to be already achieving something you're trying to and failing.

Because we played same average time, but with this system they made, players who played more endless missions will have an higher rank even if they didn't wanted it!!

 

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

Just now, Radu10 said:

Why I have to do that, if someone else just playing the game like me didn't have to?

Because you're the one who wants to farm those fissures!

1 minute ago, Radu10 said:

You just proved you spammed Steel Path

No, I suggested that Steel Path can be used in this algorithm

Where did you see me write that I actually used this method? It is simply the obvious method to farm those fissures (if you assume the 25+-2 number is correct)

4 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

When the fissures spawn, NOVA talks in transmission, by saying she detects glass fissures

She says she's detecting fissures "in your area" - not sure if she'd say that if the fissure is on the other side of the Valis! Never tried farming them, so never had a reason to investigate.

 

Again and again, you are trying to find excuses why you couldn't do something instead of actual ways to do it. Perhaps, that's the real problem with all your efforts.

[Radu10]

Just now, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Because you're the one who wants to farm those fissures!

No, I suggested that Steel Path can be used in this algorithm

Where did you see me write that I actually used this method? It is simply the obvious method to farm those fissures (if you assume the 25+-2 number is correct)

She says she's detecting fissures "in your area" - not sure if she'd say that if the fissure is on the other side of the Valis! Never tried farming them, so never had a reason to investigate.

 

Again and again, you are trying to find excuses why you couldn't do something instead of actual ways to do it. Perhaps, that's the real problem with all your efforts.

No 'cause I discovered a player (probably only you) that with same total time played focusing just on weekly and daily acts and play normal like me, actually has an higer score, proving the disparity DE created this time with this RNG system with a weird timer and a little quantity of standing gainable from it each time.
You can't know in S2 each day you could get 3k standing outside the weekly acts, compare that value to 750 in 3 hours if lucky, and tell me you agree with that, and you also will be fine if something more important will be put behind such a farming method with similar gaining values rate.

No open world maps are perfect the same way, you have to be dumb to miss them after they become glassed, with a sound effect and a visual effect you can see from a lot of distance, and no need if you go in named areas with infinite enemy spawns.

If i am talking and explain how stuff works, it means i played to try getting them efficiently during this season and did a good job at it, call those excuses to make yourself feel better, idc

You don't deserve that higher rank after all you said and proved here.

You're the one making excuses now.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

1 hour ago, Radu10 said:

players who played more endless missions will have an higher rank

Where did you get the "endless mission" thing? you're the only one who ever talked about playing more endless missions!

1 hour ago, Radu10 said:

and have the audacity to criticize my point

If your points are wrong, they deserve to be criticised!

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

1 hour ago, Radu10 said:

If i am talking and explain how stuff works, it means i played to try getting them efficiently during this season and did a good job at it,

Apparently, not good enough. Have you ever though that, maybe, your methodology was wrong?

 

1 hour ago, Radu10 said:

proving the disparity DE created this time with this RNG system with a weird timer and a little quantity of standing gainable from it each time.

Did that player do the same missions/mission types you did? If not, might their choice of missions/timing have simply been more efficient than yours?

 

1 hour ago, Radu10 said:

If i am talking and explain how stuff works, it means i played to try getting them efficiently

You seem to have failed getting them as efficiently as others - so maybe try listening to what others say and learning from it?

 

1 hour ago, Radu10 said:

You can't know in S2 each day you could get 3k standing outside the weekly acts, compare that value to 750 in 3 hours if lucky

Actually, I was playing during season 2 (at least the latter half of it), and I have used that mechanic. What you fail to mention is that Season 2 lasted for only 3 months (instead of 8). Since Season 3 ended up being so long, there is no reason to add a catchup mechanic like that (since most players could easily get to rk30 and get all the unique rewards in this time)

 

1 hour ago, Radu10 said:

I have nothing against you, don't get me wrong please. The more people like you proving me that the cap rank is/ it was reachable, the more I will accept all your points, but right now I can't do it based only on you.

The rank cap is reachable - that is simply a fact! It does not matter how many people you find who can say they did it - If 1 does it, then it is possible to do!

Is it hard? It is if you only started thinking about it in November. If you started consistently working towards it in May (when the season started) - then it's actually fairly reasonable. Don't look for excuses - look for reasons ad try to figure out how to avoid those pitfalls next time!

[Radu10]

1 hour ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Apparently, not good enough. Have you ever though that, maybe, your methodology was wrong?

Did that player do the same missions/mission types you did? If not, might their choice of missions/timing have simply been more efficient than yours?

 

You seem to have failed getting them as efficiently as others - so maybe try listening to what others say and learning from it?

Actually, I was playing during season 2 (at least the latter half of it), and I have used that mechanic. What you fail to mention is that Season 2 lasted for only 3 months (instead of 8). Since Season 3 ended up being so long, there is no reason to add a catchup mechanic like that (since most players could easily get to rk30 and get all the unique rewards in this time)

That player is you, and as you said like me you just played the game, you never had the idea to do more endless missions to get more glass enemies. You did a lot more endless for other reasons steel essence, resources and such.
I did a lot of more quicker missions, and longer ones on average below the 25 minutes cap which is sometimes needed to get just one glass fissure spawn.
So why this time the spawn system rewarded more the players who played more endless missions like you and punishes players who had a game experience in last 8 months more similar to me, even if we both may have played the same amount of time?

You have more credits to spent in the nora market in the end and all you did was playing a different type of mission that helped you not miss those glass fissures spawns.
I would understand if DE made only them be able to spawn on endless, but they can in normal missions as well, it's just more inconsistent there.

NW S2 ended October 13th, 2019 , you started playing in december, unless the data reported on the forum profile is invalid to consider (in that case my bad).

Like you said S2 with that mechanic even lasting same amount of time as this one, the cap rank would've been still more accessible, but this time they made it "a lot" more exclusive and what it triggers me is that they probably didn't even made it on purpose. They just wanted set and higher cap so people will not complain reaching it too soon before series ends, but now it went the opposite way! Why it couldn't be a midground on this? It's not a black and white situation unfortunally

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Then please stop the personal attacks! They are not appropriate here or anywhere else!

The rank cap is reachable - that is simply a fact! It does not matter how many people you find who can say they did it - If 1 does it, then it is possible to do!

Is it hard? It is if you only started thinking about it in November. If you started consistently working towards it in May (when the season started) - then it's actually fairly reasonable. Don't look for excuses - look for reasons ad try to figure out how to avoid those pitfalls next time!

But did you "started consistently working towards it" like you said? No, you clearly said you didn't even tried getting it.

I started a lot before november, and after all previous seasons, and how they managed rank caps, I was sure to be having enough standing to reach the final cap in the first 5/6 months, it's easy to talk now, nobody could've predicted that back in those months. I never had to farm something more than the usual by just playing, 'cause i had to have the bad and being scared feeling that it couldn't be enough in the end.

I have to do this everytime they put something time limited from now on being scared and obsessioned about finishing it , and eventually end up being done with it a lot before it ends, 'cause idk what DE will do last months at the cap or something?

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

2 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

You did a lot more endless for other reasons steel essence, resources and such.

where did you get that impression from? I did some, but not a huge amount of them (in the grand scheme of things).

4 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

longer ones on average below the 25 minutes cap which is sometimes needed to get just one glass fissure spawn.

Lately, most of my glass fissures appear during Lich farming. Which consists of a series of short missions (under 10 mins each).

 

5 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

you started playing in december

Where did you get that from? I started playing in June/July 2019, had issues when the relay rebuild happened on the Switch because I was too new to comfortably beat the G3. December may have been when I first linked my account to Twitch (hence creating the forum account).

10 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Like you said S2 with that mechanic even lasting same amount of time as this one, the cap rank would've been still more accessible, but this time they made it "a lot" more exclusive and what it triggers me is that they probably didn't even made it on purpose.

The rank cap was never the goal! The goal has always been letting people get rk30 and all the exclusive rewards! Other rewards are extra and can be obtained during the next season!

[Radu10]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

where did you get that impression from? I did some, but not a huge amount of them (in the grand scheme of things).

Lately, most of my glass fissures appear during Lich farming. Which consists of a series of short missions (under 10 mins each).

 

Where did you get that from? I started playing in June/July 2019, had issues when the relay rebuild happened on the Switch because I was too new to comfortably beat the G3. December may have been when I first linked my account to Twitch (hence creating the forum account).

The rank cap was never the goal! The goal has always been letting people get rk30 and all the exclusive rewards! Other rewards are extra and can be obtained during the next season!

It's either that or you missed a lot less spawns than me and the other 2 guys, I need someone else like you to 

Yeah that proves my point DE never cared about people that may wanted hit those caps in previous series was too easy, now it's too hard, and I am fairly asking for a midground there, not as easy as other seasons, not as stupidly time consuming like it's now, what is your problem with that request? It will hurt you somehow? I am still trying to understand here

So reporting this will surely help make them consider this cap balancing situation as well in the next series, again there is nothing wrong in doing this.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

14 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

But did you "started consistently working towards it" like you said?

Directly? No. indirectly, by consistently playing hte game? yes.

14 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

I have to do this everytime they put something time limited from now on being scared and obsessioned about finishing it , and eventually end up being done with it a lot before it ends, 'cause idk what DE will do last months at the cap or something?

If you consider yourself a completionist and really want to make sure you complete whatever challenge you set yourself - yes.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

2 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

So reporting this will surely help make them consider this cap balancing situation as well in the next series, again there is nothing wrong in doing this.

Posting this as a suggestion is an absolutely normal thing to do.

Attacking anyone who disagrees with you isn't

[Radu10]

1 minute ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Directly? No. indirectly, by consistently playing hte game? yes.

If you consider yourself a completionist and really want to make sure you complete whatever challenge you set yourself - yes.

Yeah I did the same like you with different results, is this fair to you? Ofc yes, it would be fair to you if you were in my situation, no it wouldn't. 

But that never was required in the past, like a year ago it wasn't , I was there and can assure this to you!

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

Just now, Radu10 said:

I can make a similar list all the time you affirmed I "failed" at something, and each comment you are totally against what i say anyway, even comments with data which can't be wrong anyway.

You set yourself the goal of reaching the cap. You did not succeed in doing so. A word for "not succeeding" is "failing".

My comments were against your data - because it was based on faulty assumptions and methodology. It's OK to criticize other people's arguments and conclusions. You tried to criticize me personally - which is not OK

[Radu10]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

You set yourself the goal of reaching the cap. You did not succeed in doing so. A word for "not succeeding" is "failing".

My comments were against your data - because it was based on faulty assumptions and methodology. It's OK to criticize other people's arguments and conclusions. You tried to criticize me personally - which is not OK

Just in one comment, after what you said wasn't better than my conclusions.

Stop talk generally based on one single event, only wrong methodology i brought in was the survey one, which I stopped considering in this discussion, but  you are still looking back at it to just trying to make my points weaker with it, and that isn't a valid thing to do.

All other data are not assumptions, and unless you do similar tests as well, which results will prove those data wrong (with screenshots and proofs) I see nothing faulty in them... (and you didn't debunked any of those)

Unless you are sure whatever you will say it's always right and can't be debunked, that is a your problem, not mine. (you are a normal person just like me, whatever happens to me can happen to you and the other way around)

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

4 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Stop talk generally based on one single event, only wrong methodology i brought in was the survey one, which I stopped considering in this discussion, unlike you are still looking back at it to make my poitns weaker, and that isn't a valid thing to do.

The survey question was one of the methodology issues. Since most of your data about where other people are in NW ranks seems to rely on this survey (or a similar one, with, presumably, similar questions), it is reasonable to mention it whenever you try to use this data.

Another methodology issue was your focus on running endless missions to try to farm glass fissures. Running endless missions is not the optimal way of farming those fissures, and people pointed it out to you many times over the course of this thread. And since all your estimates about time required to farm the standing seem to be based on that assumptions, it is fair to criticise that assumption whenever you try to use those estimates.

[Radu10]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

The survey question was one of the methodology issues. Since most of your data about where other people are in NW ranks seems to rely on this survey (or a similar one, with, presumably, similar questions), it is reasonable to mention it whenever you try to use this data.

Another methodology issue was your focus on running endless missions to try to farm glass fissures. Running endless missions is not the optimal way of farming those fissures, and people pointed it out to you many times over the course of this thread. And since all your estimates about time required to farm the standing seem to be based on that assumptions, it is fair to criticise that assumption whenever you try to use those estimates.

Ok I only took one guy from that post, and you quickly legit proved that "kinda" wrong, the other guy I mentioned appeared on this topic, but you keep skipping useful comments that might make your comments faulty, it will not help make your comments feel more valid than mines.

Ok so go do 1 hour survival/open world map, then 1 hour normal missions to beat in 15 minutes or less. In the most casual way, then come here with screenshots comparing how much standing you got from each way. All those people u mentioned never posted a screenshot or proof confirming what they affirm, unlike us.

Endless and open worlds are 100% the best way to get those glass fissures spawn, many people have talked but noone proved a different method is "better" or "faster" and you are included. (but i can tell already doing non-endless will have you get the same amount in that hour of test, and probably less than the endless ones, proving they can be similar but endless are more consistent and lets people have less frequent standing loss)

Those estimates proves that disparity in total ranks we have, the other guy who also has issue with this, has more points than me, still less than you.

So again this methodology still looks valid to me.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

4 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Endless and open worlds are 100% the best way to get those glass fissures spawn, many people have talked but noone proved a different method is "better" or "faster" and you are included.

That is an assertion you are making. Just because you say it is so doesn't make it true. Other people (including myself) are doing other things and are getting more spawns than you. That means those other methods may be superior to the one you are using (at least in some situation).

To estimate maximum farming efficiency, you need to be using the best possible farming method - otherwise the estimate will be wrong. We have been claiming all along that your method is not optimal, making your estimates wrong and the respective data invalid.

13 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Ok so go do 1 hour survival/open world map, then 1 hour normal missions to beat in 15 minutes or less.

I actually did a 1hr excavation this morning (needed some cryotic) - got a single fissure, 150 standing. Since I do plenty of Lich farming (e.g. did one day before yesterday), I can already tell you that you get at least as much while doing a murmur farm (shorter missions). Didn't make any screenshots, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Are you now going to move the goalposts, claiming repeated runs would be needed to make the data statistically significant?

[Radu10]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

That is an assertion you are making. Just because you say it is so doesn't make it true. Other people (including myself) are doing other things and are getting more spawns than you. That means those other methods may be superior to the one you are using (at least in some situation).

To estimate maximum farming efficiency, you need to be using the best possible farming method - otherwise the estimate will be wrong. We have been claiming all along that your method is not optimal, making your estimates wrong and the respective data invalid.

I actually did a 1hr excavation this morning (needed some cryotic) - got a single fissure, 150 standing. Since I do plenty of Lich farming (e.g. did one day before yesterday), I can already tell you that you get at least as much while doing a murmur farm (shorter missions). Didn't make any screenshots, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Are you now going to move the goalposts, claiming repeated runs would be needed to make the data statistically significant?

Where are the proofs? Go make a video, to prove me wrong on that, only words can't do it.

They already proved glass fissures not spawning in lich missions, so nah.

Also yeah i said 1 hour to make it easier get some data and proofs quicker but 2 hour would be better ofc, only me the OP can waste 3 hours to prove a point, others cannot do that, it's illegal right?

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

Just now, Radu10 said:

Where are the proofs? Go make a video, to prove me wrong on that, only words can't do it.

You are the one asking for something to be changed - so the burden of proof is on you. If you don't want to believe me - that's not a problem with my argument, just with your perception of it.

3 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

They already proved glass fissures not spawning in lich missions, so nah.

Who are these "They"? I've had plenty of glass fissures spawn in lich missions (some days, they are the only missions I do). If you want further proof, have a look at

 (4th reply)

7 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Also yeah i said 1 hour to make it easier get some data and proofs quicker but 2 hour would be better ofc, only me the OP can waste 3 hours to prove a point, others cannot do that, it's illegal right?

That is called "Moving the goalposts". How did I guess you'd try to do that?

[Radu10]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

You are the one asking for something to be changed - so the burden of proof is on you. If you don't want to believe me - that's not a problem with my argument, just with your perception of it.

Who are these "They"? I've had plenty of glass fissures spawn in lich missions (some days, they are the only missions I do). If you want further proof, have a look at

 (4th reply)

That is called "Moving the goalposts". How did I guess you'd try to do that?

Yes but if I waste 3 hours proving something, I expect people who try make those data look wrong do the same thing first, or they can't comment (those are assumptions to me)
No, that post Cephalite Enemies are on a 25min Timer : Warframe (reddit.com), where OP made a looooooooot of tests, and even made an excel file about them, you should go look at: Glassmaker boys.xlsx - Microsoft Excel Online (live.com)
I wonder why most of the time he collected data from endless missions and open world maps 🤔

No i said i made you a favour setting it at 1 hour, it can stay like that i don't mind in the end, you will not collect proofs for a hour anyway and we both know that.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

The rank cap is reachable - that is simply a fact! It does not matter how many people you find who can say they did it - If 1 does it, then it is possible to do!

Is it hard? It is if you only started thinking about it in November. If you started consistently working towards it in May (when the season started) - then it's actually fairly reasonable. Don't look for excuses - look for reasons ad try to figure out how to avoid those pitfalls next time!

Cool fallacy bro. We didn't know until November what the cap and time limit would be. Until then we could safely infer from precedent that tasks would be more than enough to hit whatever cap they gave. Until the recent announcement, we could even estimate that there would be 1 or more weeks longer than we are now aware (delaying the ending until the very end of, or even beyond, the stated 'january' intent).

You're an anomalous result and you're projecting that anecdotal experience to justify the whole thing. It's not 'designed to be unreachable'. A cap only exists if you expect people to generally be equipped to reach it, otherwise you don't need a cap.

 

Strict theoretical possibility is not reasonable expectation of possibility. Your outlier is almost wholly irrelevant if the objective facts still prove unreasonable, which they do because of factors like the point at which the requirements have become clear, the mechanical unreliability and opacity of fissures, the season at point of clear necessity and the event which also precludes fissures.

Most of all, the fact that farming fissures is antithetical to the systemic change Nightwave represents. It is an objective design failure if a player ever finds a need to do that after engaging fully with the main system of tasks, which includes completionists seeking their cap, because big surprise a game like this is enticing to people who will chase perfection.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

6 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

No, that post Cephalite Enemies are on a 25min Timer : Warframe (reddit.com), where OP made a looooooooot of tests, and even made an excel file about them, you should go look at: Glassmaker boys.xlsx - Microsoft Excel Online (live.com)

Actually, that spreadsheets seems to suggest that he was able to predict glass fissure times fairly accurately (+-5 min) for quite a lot of the time - contradicting what you said about the inability to make a timer!

And the mission type he marked as not spawning any fissure is Kuva Survival, not Kuva Lich missions.

9 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

I wonder why most of the time he collected data form endless missions and open world maps 🤔

Because he needed to do stuff in open world maps? Or maybe he could sit there semi-afk for hours on end without enemy levels rising off the charts?

11 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

No i said i made you a favour setting it at 1 hour, it can stay like that i don't mind in the end, you will not collect proofs in a hour anyway and we both know that.

Didn't ask for any favours from you! Never said I'd grant you one either!

[Radu10]

19 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Actually, that spreadsheets seems to suggest that he was able to predict glass fissure times fairly accurately (+-5 min) for quite a lot of the time - contradicting what you said about the inability to make a timer!

And the mission type he marked as not spawning any fissure is Kuva Survival, not Kuva Lich missions.

Because he needed to do stuff in open world maps? Or maybe he could sit there semi-afk for hours on end without enemy levels rising off the charts?

Didn't ask for any favours from you! Never said I'd grant you one either!

Yeah but never by just doing non-endless missions, I also manage to get them spawning in open worlds very accurately even before I found that post.

I misinterpreted that kuva, yeah my bad on that one.

No he clearly knows endless were better for that purpose, do you want me ask him if that's why to convince you?

Yeah like I said you wanna prove all stuff wrong but when it's needed provide a hour proof worth of data, hell no you will do it.

I am so gentle i will do 2 hours of both type of runs to convince all of you sceptic ones.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

9 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Cool fallacy bro. We didn't know until November what the cap and time limit would be. Until then we could safely infer from precedent that tasks would be more than enough to hit whatever cap they gave. Until the recent announcement, we could even estimate that there would be 1 or more weeks longer than we are now aware (delaying the ending until the very end of, or even beyond, the stated 'january' intent).

They always tell us when a season ends 2 weeks in advance (that's DE's stated policy). 2 weeks was never going to be enough to catch up in standing - so it was clear that you needed to prepare well before they announced the end date. How far in advance? That's up to each player's individual judgement. You seem to have misjudged.

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You're an anomalous result

Maybe. Or maybe you are. We will never know for sure unless DE announces official stats about this season. If they do - it'll be interesting to have a look at them.

16 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

A cap only exists if you expect people to generally be equipped to reach it, otherwise you don't need a cap.

Actually, there are plenty of reasons to set a cap you don't expect people to reach. In software engineering, it is much easier to manage a data structure if you know exactly what range each of the values is going to be in. It's a similar reason to why a lot of games limit the maximum length of a user's name: to make the data structure it is stored in much more predictable in size.

22 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Strict theoretical possibility is not reasonable expectation of possibility.

One could argue that an example of the occurrence makes the possibility more than "strictly theoretical". And the idea of "reasonable" is pretty subjective and can be disagreed on. Since we are talking about the reasonableness of time spent farming the standing, it is completely valid to disagree on both how that time is distributed (November to January or May to January) and the optimal farming method (long missions, short missions, or some combination of both).

30 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Most of all, the fact that farming fissures is antithetical to the systemic change Nightwave represents.

If reaching the cap is not expected, then farming fissures becomes an unnecessary extra that some people choose to put on themselves. Then the farm being unpleasant is irrelevant to the success/failure of the system.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

2 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

No he clearly knows endless were better for that purpose, do you want me ask him if that's why to convince you?

Endless missions are good for gathering data and building a model. Once you have a model built and can predict approximately when the fissures are coming - shorter missions (targeted around the expected time of the fissure) become more optimal. Ask him if you like - he'll confirm exactly that (although maybe in different terminology)

[Radu10]

22 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Endless missions are good for gathering data and building a model. Once you have a model built and can predict approximately when the fissures are coming - shorter missions (targeted around the expected time of the fissure) become more optimal. Ask him if you like - he'll confirm exactly that (although maybe in different terminology)

Good to see you so sure about that ;)

And gg you again skipped some things i said in the same comment, keep comment only things that make you look still in the right!