Crit and Warframe's mess of damage multipliers

[Teridax68]

Part 1: Introduction

Warframe is a game with a lot of underlying systems, and in this thread, we're going to be looking at conditional damage multipliers: by this, I don't mean damage-increasing mods like Serration, Split Chamber, or Thermite Rounds, nor status effects like Viral. Rather, I'm talking about the other ways in which the player's raw damage can get increased by meeting certain conditions in combat, and it turns out there are not one, not two or three, but four different systems responsible for this:

Spoiler

• Critical hits, which randomly multiply the player's damage by a value dependent on the weapon being used. Through certain mods and abilities, a weapon's crit chance can be made to go beyond 100%, effectively multiplying its damage all the time and giving it a chance to multiply it again, which stacks past every 100% threshold.
• Body part multipliers, which modify (and don't always increase) the player's damage if they shoot a certain part of an enemy's body, usually the head. Generally, the standard is a 2x headshot damage multiplier which also bypasses shield gating, but different units will have different vulnerable body parts and multipliers (MOAs, for example, have a 3x damage multiplier to the box on their back).
• Stealth damage, which occurs when damaging enemies with a melee attack (and only a melee attack) when they're unalerted, under the effects of an ability like Excalibur's Radial Blind or Banshee's Silence, or if the player's invisible. This damage multiplier scales with the weapon's rank, up to a 8x damage multiplier, but this damage can also crit, in which case the crit multiplier stacks additively with the stealth damage multiplier.
• Finishers, which are special melee animations that occur when attacking or interacting with enemies under certain conditions. These animations have the player attack for increased damage, and can occur if an enemy is knocked to the ground, unalerted, or made vulnerable to finishers through certain effects. The damage multiplier for this animation's attack varies for every weapon and for each of the four different possible finishers, and three of those will also convert the attack to deal True damage (not ground finishers, though), with stealth damage multiplying this multiplier. Guess which weapon class has the best stealth finisher multiplier? If you guessed hammers, you are correct! Daggers, by contrast, have the worst stealth finisher multiplier. Go figure.

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Part 2: Critique

To call this bundle of semi-connected and overlapping systems a mess would, I think, be putting it lightly. Here are but a few of the issues the above setup causes:

Spoiler

• Virtually none of these systems are intuitive: Stealth damage scales weirdly, finishers require an entire table to understand, and despite playing this game for literal thousands of hours, I had to look up the body part multiplier for MOAs, as I always thought their own vulnerable spot was the little face underneath their gun (it isn't). Even crit scales bizarrely, as it makes no immediate sense to increase crit chance beyond 100%. All of this makes for a lot of confused players who can't really do much with these systems except build some weapons for crit, and shoot enemies in where they believe is the head.
• These systems add little in the way of depth or gameplay: Stealth damage and finishers are niche multipliers that are unlikely to happen often in most players' regular gameplay (and even when they do, finishers are so slow as to generally be undesirable) and crit, as a random damage increase, by definition offers no real gameplay of its own, despite being central to one of our two main methods of weapon modding. The only thing left out of all this, is to shoot enemies in the head... except, of course, when the head doesn't actually have a headshot multiplier.
• These systems don't encourage build diversity: Aside from highly niche Banshee or Zakti builds, virtually nobody builds for finishers, especially because nobody really wants to take the time to perform a finisher animation against a single target in a game that throws dozens of enemies at the player at a time. There are surprisingly few modding options for headshots, which leaves crit as the only truly generally moddable stat... and even then, it's usually a simple matter of slapping on generic +crit chance and +crit damage mods and calling it a day, giving weapons a ton more power, but zero additional gameplay.
• The implementation of these systems makes ragdolling awful: An enduring problem with Warframe has been that ragdolling enemies in any capacity tends to be seen as undesirable, despite the crowd control it provides, because it makes enemy weak points harder to hit. Even knocking an enemy down isn't always appreciated, which creates conflict between players who'd like to throw enemies around, and players who don't want to have a harder time shooting enemies in the head.

TL;DR: Warframe has way too many systems for increasing the player's damage, most of which are confusingly implemented, and add very little in the way of interesting gameplay or builds. In fact, they arguably diminish both, and have hampered our metagame in strange and arcane ways. The game could therefore condense some or all of these systems together and only benefit from it.

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Part 3: Suggestions

While there are likely many ways of going about it, here's my take on a simplified system that would encompass most of the above:

Spoiler

• Damaging an enemy in any way inflicts a critical hit if any of the following conditions are met:
  • The enemy is unalerted.
  • The enemy is hit in the head. For area-of-effect damage, the center of the damage must hit the head for this to apply.
  • The enemy is affected by an ability that renders them vulnerable to critical hits. This includes blinds, abilities like Banshee's Silence, and ragdolling effects which displace the enemy or knock them to the ground.
  • The attacker is invisible.
  • The attacker is empowered by an ability that guarantees critical hits (this could include Harrow's Covenant).
• A critical hit deals increased damage:
  • The default multiplier is 2x (NOTE: This is just a placeholder value. The actual number could be anything).
  • Some weapons and abilities have a different base critical damage multiplier. Daggers and sniper rifles, for example, should deal significantly more damage on a crit.
  • Some mods, weapon mechanics, and abilities, can modify the critical damage multiplier of attacks, or attach other effects to inflicting critical hits. By default, these multiplier increases should stack additively with one another.
• With the above, some housekeeping:
  • Random critical strike chance removed. Some weapons and mods may still be allowed to randomly do something strong, ideally more interesting than just more damage.
  • Finishers, stealth damage multipliers removed, body part multipliers altered to consistently make the head a weak point.
  • Base damage for all crit-based weapons increased significantly to make up for the above. All crit weapons should be defined by a critical damage multiplier above the default value and/or their own means of triggering critical hits.
  • All mods related to the above systems reworked, ideally with additions made to the selection (see below).

TL;DR: Condense all of our current conditional damage multiplier systems to just crit, which would no longer be random but would instead trigger when damaging enemies under certain conditions. Everything that currently depends on those systems should be reoriented and rebalanced around this new crit system.

With that, ideally the end result should be a much simpler, yet deeper and more functional system that would allow players to deal critical damage in ways that should feel intuitive, yet also encourage different forms of gameplay. Crit would become much more reliable, yet also generally more skill-based, which also means crit weapons could have a chance to incentivize greater precision for greater rewards, in better contrast to status weapons whose power comes from the different effects they apply. I'm debating whether or not to make the above crit effect stack, e.g. headshotting an unalerted enemy could apply the crit multiplier twice multiplicatively and the like, but just to keep things simple on this thread, let's just assume it only triggers once, and all crits are equal in that respect.

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Part 4: Mods

Just to provide an illustrative example of how the above system could enhance gameplay and build diversity, here's a list of reworked or new mods that could plug into this new form of crit (numbers are placeholder):

Spoiler

Reworked weapon mods (not exhaustive):

• Argon Scope:  On headshot, + 22.5 / 45 / 67.5 / 90 / 112.5 / 135% critical damage while aiming for 1.5 / 3 / 4.5 / 6 / 7.5 / 9 seconds
• Covert Lethality: + 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240% critical damage against unalerted enemies
• Finishing Touch: + 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240% critical damage against control-impaired enemies
• Meticulous Aim: + 66.7 / 133.4 / 200 / 266.7 / 333.4 / 400% critical damage multiplier, - 8.3 / 16.6 / 25 / 33.3 / 41.6 / 50% damage
• Target Acquired: + 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240% critical damage on headshots
• Vital Sense: + 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120% critical damage

New general weapon mods:

• Chain Reaction: Killing an enemy with a critical hit inflicts 10 / 18 / 26 / 34 / 42 / 50% of the hit's damage to enemies within 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 meters. Usable on primary weapons
• Combo Breaker: Attacks against Lifted enemies hold them in the air for longer and each add + 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60% critical damage to the next primary or secondary weapon attack against them, stacking infinitely. Usable on melee weapons
• Head Seeker: + 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60% critical damage, shots bounce to nearby enemies on critical hit. Usable on non-automatic secondary weapons. Suggested by @keikogi
• Overwhelming Force: Infinite punch-through and guaranteed critical hits against enemies within 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 meters. Usable on shotguns
• Siphoning Shot: Killing an enemy with a critical hit restores 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 / 11 Energy. Usable on secondary weapons

New weapon augment mods:

• Analyser: Critical hit kills scan the victim. Critical hits against fully researched enemies have 25 / 50 / 75 / 100% of their damage converted to adaptive damage. Usable on the Gammacor. Suggested by @keikogi
• Butcher's Derision: + 100 / 200 / 300 / 400% critical damage against enemies knocked to the ground. Usable on the Scindo. Suggested by @Teoarrk 
• Critical Chamber: If every attack from the current magazine was a critical hit, gain + 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60% reload speed and critical damage on the next magazine, stacking infinitely. Usable on the Vectis
• Deadly Blossoms: On critical hit, 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 additional explosives seek out and attach to nearby enemies. Usable on the Castanas. Suggested by @keikogi
• Fleeting Shadow: Enemies take + 0.5 / 1 / 1.5 / 2 seconds to detect you while undetected. + 150 / 300 / 450 / 600% critical damage from behind. Usable on the Dark Dagger. Suggested by @Teoarrk
• Helmet Cracker: Critical hits ignore 12.5 / 25 / 32.5 / 50% of target's shields and armor. Usable on the Penta. Suggested by @keikogi
• Impersonal Touch: Killing an enemy with a critical hit causes the next attack to teleport behind the target from up to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 meters away and critically hit. Usable on the Karyst
• Last Regard: + 250 / 500 / 500 / 1000% critical damage on the last shot in the magazine. Usable on the Pandero. Suggested by @keikogi
• Magnum Revolver: On aim glide, highlight enemy weak spots within 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 meters and + 50 / 100 / 150 / 200% critical damage on headshots. Usable on the Magnus and Vasto weapon series. Suggested by @Teoarrk
• Sapper's Subterfuge: + 100 / 200 / 300 / 400% critical damage on slam attacks against unalerted enemies. Lifted enemies make no sound for 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds. Usable on the Fragor. Suggested by @Teoarrk
• Shank: + 250 / 500 / 750 / 1000% critical damage against unalerted enemies. Usable on the Sheev

New general warframe mods:

• Active Camouflage: + 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds of invisibility upon killing an enemy with a critical hit
• Critical Mass: On critical hit, + 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% Power Strength on the next ability cast, stacking up to 3 times
• Payback: After taking 200 / 180 / 160 / 140 / 120 / 100 damage, your next hit within 1.5 / 3 / 4.5 / 6 / 7.5 / 9 seconds is a guaranteed critical hit

New warframe augment mods:

• Ballistic Precision: Critical hits do not cause the damage bonus to expire, instead increasing it by 25 / 50 / 75 / 100%, stacking infinitely. Augments Mesa's Ballistic Battery
• Brittle Transmutation: Enemies affected by 3 or more different status effects take critical hits from all sources while stunned, receiving + 30 / 60 / 90 / 120% critical damage. Augments Lavos's Transmutation Probe
• Temporal Warp: While anchored, give AND RECEIVE guaranteed critical hits. Anchor restores 25 / 50 / 75 / 100% of missing health and shields on taking lethal damage. Augments Protea's Temporal Anchor

Suggestions to change or add to the above roster would be most welcome, and if you have any ideas I'll add them to the above list with due credit. Let me know what you think: how do you feel about the above systems? Did I miss anything? What do you think of the proposed changes?

[CephalonCarnage]

You forgot the increase due to mods like Conditional Overload where procs on an enemy cause massive multipliers to be applied.

And of course, combo counts - hit something twice and you do double damage. Its a stupid thing.

 

Frankly, this is the problem - why melee is OP - is because of all these little fiddles that can take your damage up into the millions with little effort. TBH I think they should all be removed. Your weapons should do damage based more on skill (eg headshots) than simply pressing E twice in succession (or even pressing it once with a keyboard macro doing the hard work for you)

If we didn't have such massive mutipliers, we woulnd't ever have needed enemies to be so heavily armoured that the massive multipliers are required in order to hurt them!

[Teridax68]

Just now, gbjbaanb said:

You forgot the increase due to mods like Conditional Overload where procs on an enemy cause massive multipliers to be applied.

And of course, combo counts - hit something twice and you do double damage. Its a stupid thing.

 

Frankly, this is the problem - why melee is OP - is because of all these little fiddles that can take your damage up into the millions with little effort. TBH I think they should all be removed. Your weapons should do damage based more on skill (eg headshots) than simply pressing E twice in succession (or even pressing it once with a keyboard macro doing the hard work for you)

If we didn't have such massive mutipliers, we woulnd't ever have needed enemies to be so heavily armoured that the massive multipliers are required in order to hurt them!

These are fair points. I didn't include CO because it's a single mod (even though it's a pretty significant one), and hesitated to add the combo multiplier because it works a bit differently from the other systems mentioned. However, you are correct that both of those mechanics ought to be reexamined, CO because it's become the new default on most melee weapons, and the combo counter because it arguably serves no truly beneficial purpose, and forces commitment to melee when we should instead be encouraged to switch freely between melee and guns on the fly. Personally, I'd gladly remove heavy attacks and the combo counter altogether, and more generally try to tone down our layers of damage multipliers even further by also targeting our base damage, multishot, and damage type mods. The fact that our damage is this lasagna of multipliers I very much agree is a key reason why it's difficult to balance enemy EHP properly, and I think it just makes our power more difficult to gauge overall as well.

[CephalonCarnage]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Personally, I'd gladly remove heavy attacks

I'm actually OK with heavy attacks, trade speed and an animation for extra damage. That's OK, that's a realistic decision the player makes whether to do one type of damage or another, with disadvantages to it in exchange for an advantage. (ie attack speed v damage boost).

All combat should be more skill based, or trade-off based.

Eg. we already have enemy weakpoints - that can be reflected in weapons, an large impact weapon does average damage all round (eg shotguns and some large projectile weapons), but a pin-point accurate one does less damage to armoured areas, but extra for weak points. Skill = moar damage. Melee, well, that would just have to do average damage all round, unless the devs can figure out how to hit specific points on an enemy in melee combat.

We could have timed aim shots (like simaris scanning, but less time required), If you can hold your aim on a enemy body part for long enough, then you get bonus damage.

Of course, we also have to address procs as many of them are just nuts, and others are useless. Slash procs in particular.

 

are they listening and thinking of solutions though, or are we all complaining into the wind?

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

are they listening and thinking of solutions though, or are we all complaining into the wind?

I mean, hopefully someone at DE's listening and reading to this, the best we can do is offer feedback. I also agree with you, there's plenty more opportunities for letting us gain power from interesting and skilful play, and one of the reasons why most of us can currently run the game on autopilot is because Warframe doesn't really incentivize that at the moment. We should be able to still do fine without having to be especially precise or the like, but choosing to put in that extra level of mental engagement should give us meaningful performance improvements.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No thank you. If you don't want to use an aspect of the damage system, then don't. You want to increase build diversity by also condensing it and forcing us to use your mandatory OP warframe mods? Seems contradictory. 

The system is quite intuitive. If you have issues understanding aspects of the game, you're free to click on the "Fandom" link to take a quick minute to understand something. 

You have no data that says "people don't build for finishers". And Finisher mods and stealth damage affects Ash for example. So you've already completely dismantled one frames mechanics, a frame that was just worked on so you can pigeonhole players into your own playstyle. 

Learning and understanding these systems was incredibly fun for me as a new player and it made the game feel much more enriching and layered because some of us like learning and having many options and ways to play and approach the battlefield. This is why they add build diversity, because there are literally multiple ways to build for many frames and missions. 

And Crits aren't "random". They are based off the already established system of tiered crits which works just fine. 120% means 100% with a 20% chance to reach a higher tier crit. Click the fandom link and read about crits if you don't understand. Now, is it harder to achieve higher tier crits with some weapons? Yes. We could definitely use some more mids that increase reward for hitting headshots with weapons. 

Also, MOAS have the fanny pack multiplier....it's bursas that have the 3x backplate multiplier. It's important to understand the current system if you want to completely rework it at the detriment to the people that have no issues understanding it and that find it intuitive, while also diverting dev time to massive game reworks that you're not even completely sure are going to work. 

[Teridax68]

22 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thank you. If you don't want to use an aspect of the damage system, then don't.

That's a rather silly argument, because not actively engaging in some part of the game does not prevent it from existing. In the case of systems like crit or body part multipliers, one is forced to participate in them regardless of whether or not one wants to.

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You want to increase build diversity by also condensing it and forcing us to use your mandatory OP warframe mods? Seems contradictory. 

I encourage you to read the system I'm proposing, as I don't think there's a contradiction. Which warframe mods in question do you believe are OP?

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The system is quite intuitive. If you have issues understanding aspects of the game, you're free to click on the "Fandom" link to take a quick minute to understand something. 

Hold on, if the system is intuitive, why should I have to check the wiki to understand it properly? Sounds like you're the one contradicting yourself here. Also... the systems are not intuitive. I challenge you to list the exact multiplier for any given finisher on any given weapon without consulting the multiplier tables.

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You have no data that says "people don't build for finishers". And Finisher mods and stealth damage affects Ash for example.

I only need to play the game, look at how others build and discuss finishers, to see that people don't build for finishers, as that fact is obvious. Do you have any data showing any substantial number people building for finishers?

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So you've already completely dismantled one frames mechanics, a frame that was just worked on so you can pigeonhole players into your own playstyle. 

The last time Ash was "worked on" was November last year, and that was a buff to Bladestorm, so let's not reach too hard here, as the above changes wouldn't have "completely dismantled" his mechanics. I encourage you to actually read the system I am proposing, as it would not only not "pigeonhole players into [my] own playstyle", as there wouldn't be any one playstyle to pigeonhole into, but would also allow Ash's current gameplay to be preserved and even enhanced (Teleport would still open enemies up to crits, and Fatal Teleport would perform one with bonus damage).

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Learning and understanding these systems was incredibly fun for me as a new player and it made the game feel much more enriching and layered because some of us like learning and having many options and ways to play and approach the battlefield. This is why they add build diversity, because there are literally multiple ways to build for many frames and missions. 

It seems you may need to accrue more in-game experience, then, as in practice the systems mentioned add to neither diversity of play nor build diversity, certainly not in regular play. I challenge you to list the different builds enabled by those systems..

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And Crits aren't "random". They are based off the already established system of tiered crits which works just fine. 120% means 100% with a 20% chance to reach a higher tier crit. Click the fandom link and read about crits if you don't understand. Now, is it harder to achieve higher tier crits with some weapons? Yes. We could definitely use some more mids that increase reward for hitting headshots with weapons. 

A random chance to obtain a higher crit is still a random chance, so I would encourage you to research both crits on the wiki and the definition of the word "random". Crits are currently a system that gives a random chance to deal additional damage, and the only time your crit damage won't be random is if your crit chance is an exact multiple of 100%. There is no gameplay involved in this.

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Also, MOAS have the fanny pack multiplier....it's bursas that have the 3x backplate multiplier.

Yes, precisely, and the fanny pack is the pack at the back of the MOA, not the head. I very much recommend you do your research more thoroughly on this, though I don't entirely blame you here, as that too caught me by surprise.

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It's important to understand the current system if you want to completely rework it at the detriment to the people that have no issues understanding it and that find it intuitive, while also diverting dev time to massive game reworks that you're not even completely sure are going to work. 

I agree, which is why I did my research and tried coming up with a set of suggestions that would maximize gameplay and diversity of play. I cannot say the same for you, however, as you have made a number of ignorant statements even when provided with facts, and have tried to assert your opinion as fact, to the detriment of anyone who disagrees with you. I would thus recommend that you reassess your approach to discussion, in addition to doing the necessary research, so that your future posts may be more constructive.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That's a rather silly argument, because not actively engaging in some part of the game does not prevent it from existing. In the case of systems like crit or body part multipliers, one is forced to participate in them regardless of whether or not one wants to.

I encourage you to read the system I'm proposing, as I don't think there's a contradiction. Which warframe mods in question do you believe are OP?

Hold on, if the system is intuitive, why should I have to check the wiki to understand it properly? Sounds like you're the one contradicting yourself here. Also... the systems are not intuitive. I challenge you to list the exact multiplier for any given finisher on any given weapon without consulting the multiplier tables.

I only need to play the game, look at how others build and discuss finishers, to see that people don't build for finishers, as that fact is obvious. Do you have any data showing any substantial number people building for finishers?

The last time Ash was "worked on" was November last year, and that was a buff to Bladestorm, so let's not reach too hard here, as the above changes wouldn't have "completely dismantled" his mechanics. I encourage you to actually read the system I am proposing, as it would not only not "pigeonhole players into [my] own playstyle", as there wouldn't be any one playstyle to pigeonhole into, but would also allow Ash's current gameplay to be preserved and even enhanced (Teleport would still open enemies up to crits, and Fatal Teleport would perform one with bonus damage).

It seems you may need to accrue more in-game experience, then, as in practice the systems mentioned add to neither diversity of play nor build diversity, certainly not in regular play. I challenge you to list the different builds enabled by those systems..

A random chance to obtain a higher crit is still a random chance, so I would encourage you to research both crits on the wiki and the definition of the word "random". Crits are currently a system that gives a random chance to deal additional damage, and the only time your crit damage won't be random is if your crit chance is an exact multiple of 100%. There is no gameplay involved in this.

Yes, precisely, and the fanny pack is the pack at the back of the MOA, not the head. I very much recommend you do your research more thoroughly on this, though I don't entirely blame you here, as that too caught me by surprise.

I agree, which is why I did my research and tried coming up with a set of suggestions that would maximize gameplay and diversity of play. I cannot say the same for you, however, as you have made a number of ignorant statements even when provided with facts, and have tried to assert your opinion as fact, to the detriment of anyone who disagrees with you. I would thus recommend that you reassess your approach to discussion, in addition to doing the necessary research, so that your future posts may be more constructive.

Wikis exist for many games. Warframe isn't super mario, nor is it a child's game. I believe the game is actually rated M, which means children that are still learning to read technically shouldn't be playing it. Final fantasy 7 had a strategy book you actually had to leave the house to purchase. So world building in depth games have always added extra knowledge for people that like exploring said worlds. 

Expecting to not read or learn further details is more an issue of the players lack of desire to pursue knowledge and ability to learn and understand than opposed to the game. 

Even if your new system was implemented, DE could still choose not to put all information in the game, therefore still giving people the option to read a Wiki. 

Do I really need to explain how a  warframe mod giving permanent invisibility, and consistent 90% ability strength for next cast would be abused? Really? So I should be able to slap this on any frame and invis away no problem? I'd just like to see you type that that's completely ok.

Ash' shadows do finisher damage, as well as teleport opening enemies up to finisher damage and the augment doing 200% extra damage. Did you or did you not provide "housekeeping" suggestions which were to remove finisher and stealth damage multipliers? 

And there's no obligation to give every weapon enough base crit to allow it to reach 100% with a single crit mod. A weapon having lower base crit is not the same as crits being "random". If you want a higher crit percentage, you have an arcane and abilities and mods to help you with that?

And Are you talking to all 50,000+ players in the game to gather data that no one uses finishers or finisher mods? Or are you just using anecdotal hearsay? If you're confused, here's a definition to help you.

Anecdotal: 

adjective

1. (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

    

    

    

[Teridax68]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Wikis exist for many games. Warframe isn't super mario, nor is it a child's game. I believe the game is actually rated M, which means children that are still learning to read technically shouldn't be playing it. Final fantasy 7 had a strategy book you actually had to leave the house to purchase. So world building in depth games have always added extra knowledge for people that like exploring said worlds. 

It is strange that you would cite FFVII as an example when its existence proves that complex games once could not count on an immediately available wiki, and instead managed to convey their systems through intuitive tutorials. Warframe, by contrast, is not a strategic turn-based game, it's a looter shooter, and is infamous for failing to convey even basic information to the player, requiring use of the wiki to be properly informed. It is interesting to see you change your tune here, as previously you were arguing that Warframe's damage systems were "intuitive", whereas now you seem to be using the existence of the wiki as an excuse for its decidedly unintuitive systems.

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Expecting to not read or learn further details is more an issue of the players lack of desire to pursue knowledge and ability to learn and understand than opposed to the game. 

If the average player cannot properly understand a mechanic even after having been presented it, then it is likely the game is doing a poor job of conveying it. It is not the player's fault if a game's systems are too opaque or needlessly complex to be understood on their own, and Warframe is notorious for leaving the player in the dark on the large majority of its aspects.

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Even if your new system was implemented, DE could still choose not to put all information in the game, therefore still giving people the option to read a Wiki. 

So if DE chose to do a poor job of conveying a game's mechanics, the game's mechanics would be poorly conveyed? Shocking. It is interesting as well to see the doublethink at play here, as you try to blame players for not failing to grok Warframe's opaque systems, yet implicitly acknowledge here that DE doesn't communicate the game's systems adequately. At the end of the day, my system is much simpler than the ones at hand and operates on much more basic operating principles: you could perhaps consult the wiki to see which abilities induce critical hits, but the player would also get immediate and consistent feedback whenever they shoot an enemy in the head, or while they're unalerted. There wouldn't be damage tables to consult, or scaling formulas, or combinations of factors, just a single, consistent multiplier.

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Do I really need to explain how a  warframe mod giving permanent invisibility, and consistent 90% ability strength for next cast would be abused? Really? So I should be able to slap this on any frame and invis away no problem? I'd just like to see you type that that's completely ok.

That's completely ok. Already, we have warframes that go perma-invisible on a whim, including through the use of the Skiajati, and Helminth's Empower also already provides free, on-demand Ability Strength. If the numbers are too high, they can most certainly be toned down, but as it stands I see plenty of competition for either mod.

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Ash' shadows do finisher damage, as well as teleport opening enemies up to finisher damage and the augment doing 200% extra damage. Did you or did you not provide "housekeeping" suggestions which were to remove finisher and stealth damage multipliers? 

Yes, actually, I mentioned some abilities would guarantee critical hits, and I don't see why Ash should suddenly lose that in transition. Did you have any particular reason to interpret those changes disfavorably in his respect?

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And there's no obligation to give every weapon enough base crit to allow it to reach 100% with a single crit mod. A weapon having lower base crit is not the same as crits being "random". If you want a higher crit percentage, you have an arcane and abilities and mods to help you with that?

A net crit chance that isn't an exact multiple of 100% is going to incur random crits of a certain tier, whether you like it or not. Just because you can come up with an extremely specific build to have perfectly non-random crits on some weapons does not change that fact.

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And Are you talking to all 50,000+ players in the game to gather data that no one uses finishers or finisher mods? Or are you just using anecdotal hearsay? If you're confused, here's a definition to help you.

Anecdotal: 

adjective

1. (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

By that very definition, my assessment isn't anecdotal, as it is based on more accounts than mine. By contrast, you are arguing on nothing at all, unless of course you have evidence to show that there is a significant number of finisher-based builds being used in the current game.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It is strange that you would cite FFVII as an example when its existence proves that complex games once could not count on an immediately available wiki, and instead managed to convey their systems through intuitive tutorials. Warframe, by contrast, is not a strategic turn-based game, it's a looter shooter, and is infamous for failing to convey even basic information to the player, requiring use of the wiki to be properly informed. It is interesting to see you change your tune here, as previously you were arguing that Warframe's damage systems were "intuitive", whereas now you seem to be using the existence of the wiki as an excuse for its decidedly unintuitive systems.

If the average player cannot properly understand a mechanic even after having been presented it, then it is likely the game is doing a poor job of conveying it. It is not the player's fault if a game's systems are too opaque or needlessly complex to be understood on their own, and Warframe is notorious for leaving the player in the dark on the large majority of its aspects.

So if DE chose to do a poor job of conveying a game's mechanics, the game's mechanics would be poorly conveyed? Shocking. It is interesting as well to see the doublethink at play here, as you try to blame players for not failing to grok Warframe's opaque systems, yet implicitly acknowledge here that DE doesn't communicate the game's systems adequately. At the end of the day, my system is much simpler than the ones at hand and operates on much more basic operating principles: you could perhaps consult the wiki to see which abilities induce critical hits, but the player would also get immediate and consistent feedback whenever they shoot an enemy in the head, or while they're unalerted. There wouldn't be damage tables to consult, or scaling formulas, or combinations of factors, just a single, consistent multiplier.

That's completely ok. Already, we have warframes that go perma-invisible on a whim, including through the use of the Skiajati, and Helminth's Empower also already provides free, on-demand Ability Strength. If the numbers are too high, they can most certainly be toned down, but as it stands I see plenty of competition for either mod.

Yes, actually, I mentioned some abilities would guarantee critical hits, and I don't see why Ash should suddenly lose that in transition. Did you have any particular reason to interpret those changes disfavorably in his respect?

A net crit chance that isn't an exact multiple of 100% is going to incur random crits of a certain tier, whether you like it or not. Just because you can come up with an extremely specific build to have perfectly non-random crits on some weapons does not change that fact.

By that very definition, my assessment isn't anecdotal, as it is based on more accounts than mine. By contrast, you are arguing on nothing at all, unless of course you have evidence to show that there is a significant number of finisher-based builds being used in the current game.

Like I said....they had a strategy guide....a physical book....you had to leave your house to buy....and then read....how is that not more effort than typing "gara abilities warframe" and reading for 2mins? One requires you to stay where you are in your house, the other requires you to leave your house and drive and/or walk. 

FF7 had it's own secrets that weren't easily discoverable....hence said strategy guide....

There are currently wikis for multiple looter shooters as well. So what's your excuse now? Pick one and I can send you a link: Borderlands? Destiny? Anthem? Why do they have wikis? 

These games aren't for children, once again. The brain should be properly developed at age 18 to 21 to grasp more complex concepts. This is why we have things like puzzles, and mystery/puzzle based videogames, books and television shows. Some people like to explore instead of being spoonfed or having their handheld, like a child. Some people also just grasp concepts faster than others.....and that's no ones fault if others are a bit slower. 

People have admitted to not reading the codex....people have admitted to not reading ability descriptions....people have admitted to not reading basic game prompts in game, like the "i" information button at the bottom right of the screen, which gives plenty of advice and tips. These are all in-game....so why do people admit to not reading them? Were they forced to not read? Were they under duress? 

I, on the other hand....read all of these....because warframe is intuitive and it was easily visible for me to click on and read. If I was able to achieve this simple task, why weren't others? Is it possible that there is a human factor at work and everything can't be pinned on the games design? It's no ones fault that people still believe the earth is flat, some people just choose not make an effort, and they shouldn't be solely catered to. If some people like the design, that means your opinion is subjective and it doesn't need to be dumbed down just because you want it to. 

Every frame has it's own niche, theme, and different ways to play them. There are 45 frames....please tell me how many of them can currently go invisible through their abilities....is it all 45? Yes or no? 

How many of these 45 frames currently have a protective dome in their ability arsenal? Is it all 45? Yes or no? And if no....why not? Should we add a mod for that as well? 

Energy conversion is 50% strength. Empower is 50% strength and doesn't scale with mods, so 50% is 50% whether you're ability strength is 100% or 200%. 

Growing power isn't 90%, either.....and none of these tools say anything about stacking up to 3 times sooo....who is the outlier here? Things already established in the game.....or some random persons idea? 

Do you need to read the definition of anecdotal again....it literally means "I don't see anyone using finishers, therefore no one uses finishers" is a completely false and inaccurate way to interpret data....

 

 

[Teridax68]

52 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Like I said....they had a strategy guide....a physical book....you had to leave your house to buy....and then read....how is that not more effort than typing "gara abilities warframe" and reading for 2mins? One requires you to stay where you are in your house, the other requires you to leave your house and drive and/or walk. 

FF7 had it's own secrets that weren't easily discoverable....hence said strategy guide....

I think you may have missed my point, as the fact that guides took more effort to obtain was precisely the reason why games had to make more effort to teach their mechanics to players, whereas games in the wiki era like Warframe are visibly more complacent in that respect. You also appear to be confusing secrets with core mechanics and systems: if the latter seems like the former to you, that too proves my point.

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There are currently wikis for multiple looter shooters as well. So what's your excuse now? Pick one and I can send you a link: Borderlands? Destiny? Anthem? Why do they have wikis? 

... because anything with information has a wiki? Again, I'm not quite sure you're trying to refute or even argue here, because the existence of wikis for other looter shooters does not counter the fact that Warframe infamously relies on its wiki more than any of those other games for players to inform themselves on the game's basics. Without the wiki, players would be able to play Borderlands, Destiny, and probably even Anthem just fine, even if they wouldn't be able to know of all those games' secrets and intricacies. Without the Warframe wiki, a lot of players would be lost, including most new players.

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These games aren't for children, once again. The brain should be properly developed at age 18 to 21 to grasp more complex concepts. This is why we have things like puzzles, and mystery/puzzle based videogames, books and television shows. Some people like to explore instead of being spoonfed or having their handheld, like a child. Some people also just grasp concepts faster than others.....and that's no ones fault if others are a bit slower. 

And some people like to pretend they're smarter than they are, by condescending and projecting their ignorance upon others. Just because a person cannot grasp a concept does not mean they are a child, unless of course you feel ready to admit to childlike intellect simply because you do not fully understand string theory, or some other similarly complex subject. Warframe may not be rocket science, but it is certainly a game with a high amount of information overhead, and that complexity requires proper means of conveying that information to the player, regardless of their age. If you genuinely do feel like you understood everything about the game immediately and with no problems whatsoever, more power to you, but many more players, at least the majority of whom I'd assume are intelligent, did not take to its systems with the same dazzling brilliance as you, and I don't think it's fair to fault them when Warframe could easily do a better job of teaching us mere mortals how it works.

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People have admitted to not reading the codex....people have admitted to not reading ability descriptions....people have admitted to not reading basic game prompts in game, like the "i" information button at the bottom right of the screen, which gives plenty of advice and tips. These are all in-game....so why do people admit to not reading them? Were they forced to not read? Were they under duress? 

Who are these people, pray tell? Are these representative of all those who've struggled to grasp Warframe's systems? Or is this the anecdotal evidence you were speaking of?

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I, on the other hand....read all of these....because warframe is intuitive and it was easily visible for me to click on and read. If I was able to achieve this simple task, why weren't others? Is it possible that there is a human factor at work and everything can't be pinned on the games design? It's no ones fault that people still believe the earth is flat, some people just choose not make an effort, and they shouldn't be solely catered to. If some people like the design, that means your opinion is subjective and it doesn't need to be dumbed down just because you want it to. 

It feels like you really want a medal. Do you want a medal? Because your argument here is worthless, as you are not an objective point of reference and nobody else needs to be held to your dubious, self-proclaimed standard. Really, it looks like you're trying way too hard to position yourself as smarter than everyone else, which comes across as just a tad insecure.

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Every frame has it's own niche, theme, and different ways to play them. There are 45 frames....please tell me how many of them can currently go invisible through their abilities....is it all 45? Yes or no? 

Through their abilities? Not all 45, no, but you appear to be confused, as a mod is not an ability. All 45 frames are in fact able to go invisible through the use of any combination of the Shade, Huras Kubrow, Skiajati, Arcane Trickery, Void Shadow, and Octavia's Metronome, so the "OP" situation you are citing can in fact be easily achieved right now in a myriad of ways, to no ill effect. Tell me, which objective, empirical evidence did you have to call that mod OP in the first place?

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How many of these 45 frames currently have a protective dome in their ability arsenal? Is it all 45? Yes or no? And if no....why not? Should we add a mod for that as well? 

You are aware of how the Shelter and Sanctuary mods work, right?

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Energy conversion is 50% strength. Empower is 50% strength and doesn't scale with mods, so 50% is 50% whether you're ability strength is 100% or 200%. 

Growing power isn't 90%, either.....and none of these tools say anything about stacking up to 3 times sooo....who is the outlier here? Things already established in the game.....or some random persons idea? 

Growing Power can in fact stack up to 100%, and Power Donation too can stack to give a squadmate +90% free Power Strength, so you're not even correct there, but at the end of the day, you are also comparing different mods that offer different gameplay to arrive at the same bonus, which makes your comparison rather subjective. You are, of course, free to assume that 90% Power Strength is too much, if that really makes you feel better, but I personally don't care, as the discussion of exact numbers is immaterial in absence of testing, and what matters more is the mechanic itself, which you've failed to comment on. More broadly, you appear to have missed the forest for the trees across my entire thread, focusing on numbers and semantics rather than the actual meat of the suggestions. Tell me, did you actually understand what I'm putting forth? If so, what are your thoughts on it, on its own merits? If not, I'd be most happy to walk you through the changes I'm suggesting.

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Do you need to read the definition of anecdotal again....it literally means "I don't see anyone using finishers, therefore no one uses finishers" is a completely false and inaccurate way to interpret data....

It quite literally doesn't. I would encourage you to give the definition a proper read yourself, and more generally I would encourage you to revisit the definitions of objectivity and subjectivity, as I believe you are using both rather incorrectly throughout this argument you've started. Following that, I would insist that you try to actually discuss the thread's central topic, as virtually all of your comments so far have been only tangentially related to it at best.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I think you may have missed my point, as the fact that guides took more effort to obtain was precisely the reason why games had to make more effort to teach their mechanics to players, whereas games in the wiki era like Warframe are visibly more complacent in that respect. You also appear to be confusing secrets with core mechanics and systems: if the latter seems like the former to you, that too proves my point.

... because anything with information has a wiki? Again, I'm not quite sure you're trying to refute or even argue here, because the existence of wikis for other looter shooters does not counter the fact that Warframe infamously relies on its wiki more than any of those other games for players to inform themselves on the game's basics. Without the wiki, players would be able to play Borderlands, Destiny, and probably even Anthem just fine, even if they wouldn't be able to know of all those games' secrets and intricacies. Without the Warframe wiki, a lot of players would be lost, including most new players.

And some people like to pretend they're smarter than they are, by condescending and projecting their ignorance upon others. Just because a person cannot grasp a concept does not mean they are a child, unless of course you feel ready to admit to childlike intellect simply because you do not fully understand string theory, or some other similarly complex subject. Warframe may not be rocket science, but it is certainly a game with a high amount of information overhead, and that complexity requires proper means of conveying that information to the player, regardless of their age. If you genuinely do feel like you understood everything about the game immediately and with no problems whatsoever, more power to you, but many more players, at least the majority of whom I'd assume are intelligent, did not take to its systems with the same dazzling brilliance as you, and I don't think it's fair to fault them when Warframe could easily do a better job of teaching us mere mortals how it works.

Who are these people, pray tell? Are these representative of all those who've struggled to grasp Warframe's systems? Or is this the anecdotal evidence you were speaking of?

It feels like you really want a medal. Do you want a medal? Because your argument here is worthless, as you are not an objective point of reference and nobody else needs to be held to your dubious, self-proclaimed standard. Really, it looks like you're trying way too hard to position yourself as smarter than everyone else, which comes across as just a tad insecure.

Through their abilities? Not all 45, no, but you appear to be confused, as a mod is not an ability. All 45 frames are in fact able to go invisible through the use of any combination of the Shade, Huras Kubrow, Skiajati, Arcane Trickery, Void Shadow, and Octavia's Metronome, so the "OP" situation you are citing can in fact be easily achieved right now in a myriad of ways, to no ill effect. Tell me, which objective, empirical evidence did you have to call that mod OP in the first place?

You are aware of how the Shelter and Sanctuary mods work, right?

Growing Power can in fact stack up to 100%, and Power Donation too can stack to give everyone +90% free Power Strength, so you're not even correct there, but at the end of the day, you are also comparing different mods that offer different gameplay to arrive at the same bonus, which makes your comparison rather subjective. You are, of course, free to assume that 90% Power Strength is too much, if that really makes you feel better, but I personally don't care, as the discussion of exact numbers is immaterial in absence of testing, and what matters more is the mechanic itself, which you've failed to comment on. More broadly, you appear to have missed the forest for the trees across my entire thread, focusing on numbers and semantics rather than the actual meat of the suggestions. Tell me, did you actually understand what I'm putting forth? If so, what are your thoughts on it, on its own merits? If not, I'd be most happy to walk you through the changes I'm suggesting.

It quite literally doesn't. I would encourage you to give the definition a proper read yourself, and more generally I would encourage you to revisit the definitions of objectivity and subjectivity, as I believe you are using both rather incorrectly throughout this argument you've started. Following that, I would insist that you try to actually discuss the thread's central topic, as virtually all of your comments so far have been only tangentially related to it at best.

You actually can play warframe without using much of the wiki. And if I started playing destiny or borderlands now, that there would be a situation where I would need to refer to a wiki or a youtube video for a quick minute, and the point is there's nothing wrong with that. 

All the in game information in warframe tells you what you need to know to progress through the game: how to mod, how to make different elements, how to use those elements against factions, which elements are weak and strong against which faction etc. You have the options menu to browse through all the settings as well, but once again, this requires the player to actually read it. It requires the player to listen as well. I have to turn my music off to play disruption, not a big deal. If I ignore the beeping and my conduit gets blown up, that's my fault.

Warframe is its own "world", just like any other online game. You can only hold a players hand so much and the player is going to have to use the tools available to them to progress. You would have a point if people were literally en masse prevented from progressing, but they aren't. This isn't your game....but your welcome to make your own. I've been told warframe actually wants players to work together and help each other, and if that's a problem for you, then you're welcome to take a break from the free service provided to you. 

Warframe has plenty of avenues available to learn about the game, which don't matter if they're ignored by the player anyway. If a player has questions, they now have the QnA chat....an entire bot program that provides instant answers to questions, including ones that are already available in game (people asking where resources are when you can hover over the icon on the bottom right of any planet on the starchart), many helpful players willing to help said new players etc. There are many great suggestions on the loading screens and through the inbox system when you're starting out.

And if I want to use my smeeta? What if I don't want to use shade? What if I want a pet that can actually stay alive for more than an hour? What if I don't want to use the skiajati? That's one weapon out of how many again? Arcane trickery is 15%....your mod procs off a crit, which you built your own system around to conveniently make sure it procs way more than 15%. You want every frame to have the option to have much more consistent invisibility, which is patently absurd, and I'll bet it's literally never going to happen. You might as well ask for Ivaras prowl to be Helminth consumable as well as lokis invisibility....do you have any idea or inclination as to why that didn't happen? Just curious as to why you think that didn't happen...out of curiosity....

Shelter.....you mean that mod that only procs off reviving someone? How would I protect a defense objective with no one to revive.....I'm referring to defense bubble abilities.....I was asking you why all 45 frames don't have a defensive bubble ability...

Your system basically says I can take a weapon with low crit chance, and crit "just because" I played your way. Some weapons are designed with low crit and high status, so that means we'll just always be able to crit "just because". Your stipulations for a crit are pretty easy to attain, especially with your new super invisibility for every frame mod.

[CephalonCarnage]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You actually can play warframe without using much of the wiki

Railjack would like to differ, Mind you, even after reading the wiki, players new to RJ still don't know what to do.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You actually can play warframe without using much of the wiki. And if I started playing destiny or borderlands now, that there would be a situation where I would need to refer to a wiki or a youtube video for a quick minute, and the point is there's nothing wrong with that. 

All the in game information in warframe tells you what you need to know to progress through the game: how to mod, how to make different elements, how to use those elements against factions, which elements are weak and strong against which faction etc. You have the options menu to browse through all the settings as well, but once again, this requires the player to actually read it. It requires the player to listen as well. I have to turn my music off to play disruption, not a big deal. If I ignore the beeping and my conduit gets blown up, that's my fault.

Warframe is its own "world", just like any other online game. You can only hold a players hand so much and the player is going to have to use the tools available to them to progress. You would have a point if people were literally en masse prevented from progressing, but they aren't. This isn't your game....but your welcome to make your own. I've been told warframe actually wants players to work together and help each other, and if that's a problem for you, then you're welcome to take a break from the free service provided to you. 

Warframe has plenty of avenues available to learn about the game, which don't matter if they're ignored by the player anyway. If a player has questions, they now have the QnA chat....an entire bot program that provides instant answers to questions, including ones that are already available in game (people asking where resources are when you can hover over the icon on the bottom right of any planet on the starchart), many helpful players willing to help said new players etc. There are many great suggestions on the loading screens and through the inbox system when you're starting out.

I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go here, because at the end of the day, Warframe has notable gaps in how it teaches the player its moves: it gives scant information on how to bullet jump, for example, despite that being arguably the most important move in our parkour system, there's no real information given on most of the missions we run, and more to the point, the game does a terrible job of explaining how body part multipliers, finisher damage multipliers, and stealth damage multipliers all work. It is not "hand holding" to educate the player on these matters or at the very least give them proper information about those systems in-game, rather than expect players to go to the wiki instead.

This is an issue many more players than myself have complained about, an issue DE have themselves acknowledged, so wilfully ignoring it here is little more than taking a contrarian stance in bad faith. Asking for this to change is not asking for an entirely new version of the game, and opposing this purely on the grounds that it would have the game change in some way (in no way that would inconvenience you, either) makes it look like you just don't like critical feedback, a stance that becomes all the more apparent the more one notices your posts on these forums. If you don't like it when people give feedback on the feedback forums, you are most welcome to go spend your time elsewhere. If you are to post here, though, do please try to be respectful and constructive.

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And if I want to use my smeeta? What if I don't want to use shade? What if I want a pet that can actually stay alive for more than an hour? What if I don't want to use the skiajati?

If you are so keenly intent on not using any of the tools at your disposal that would grant you invisibility, you can enjoy your build that you deliberately constructed to not feature invisibility. Why would you feel entitled to anything different?

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That's one weapon out of how many again? 

Does it matter? It's one you're guaranteed to obtain via a quest, so it will be made available to you. As you should well know, what with you having read all of the game's tips, equipping the right tool for the job is key.

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Arcane trickery is 15%....your mod procs off a crit, which you built your own system around to conveniently make sure it procs way more than 15%.

And Arcane Trickery lasts for 30 seconds, giving the player plenty of time to trigger enough finishers to prolong the effects. My effect, by contrast, lasts 4 seconds, so if you want to maintain that cover, you'd best get cracking with those crit kills.

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You want every frame to have the option to have much more consistent invisibility, which is patently absurd, and I'll bet it's literally never going to happen. You might as well ask for Ivaras prowl to be Helminth consumable as well as lokis invisibility....do you have any idea or inclination as to why that didn't happen? Just curious as to why you think that didn't happen...out of curiosity....

Because subsumable abilities aren't supposed to be the core ability in a warframe's kit? As mentioned above already, there are plenty of far stronger, far more reliable ways of obtaining invisibility for any warframe, so you really are making a lot of noise about nothing. Tell me, out of curiosity, where are you getting your facts from here? What empirical data do you have supporting the notion that my suggestion would be overpowered? You came to me demanding data, yet when I asked the same of you, you've remained curiously silent on the matter.

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Shelter.....you mean that mod that only procs off reviving someone? How would I protect a defense objective with no one to revive.....

You do know that Sortie defense objectives are people that can be revived, right? If you doubt me, I'd recommend running a Sortie; it's a little more difficult than your usual Star Chart, but I'm sure you'll manage just fine.

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I'm referring to defense bubble abilities.....I was asking you why all 45 frames don't have a defensive bubble ability...

I don't know, why don't they? More to the point, why is this relevant to the discussion at hand?

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Your system basically says I can take a weapon with low crit chance, and crit "just because" I played your way. Some weapons are designed with low crit and high status, so that means we'll just always be able to crit "just because".

And this is bad, because... ? Weapons with low crit chance already crit "just because", so I really don't know what you're on about here. I would, once again, recommend you read what I posted in suggestion, as I explicitly listed the following method of differentiating crit-focused weapons from the rest:

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Some weapons and abilities have a different base critical damage multiplier. Daggers and sniper rifles, for example, should deal significantly more damage on a crit.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Base damage for all crit-based weapons increased significantly to make up for the above. All crit weapons should be defined by a critical damage multiplier above the default value and/or their own means of triggering critical hits.

Given that what I listed above clearly contradicts your assumption that crit and non-crit weapons would be balanced the same, I would thus gently reiterate my request for you to give the things you are discussing a proper read before dismissing them.

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Your stipulations for a crit are pretty easy to attain, especially with your new super invisibility for every frame mod.

Easy to attain... by which standard? Because by current standards, as you yourself admitted, crits can be guaranteed on several weapons, and with that bring hefty, permanent damage multipliers. Similarly, going invisible already gives your melee attacks a guaranteed 8x stealth damage multiplier, so I really am not making crits any easier to obtain than the various conditional multipliers we have now. Evidently, you are not quite as knowledgeable about the subject as you had previously claimed, so I would kindly insist that you do the necessary research, either by consulting the wiki or reading this thread's original post, before continuing to argue, particularly since at this point you are offering nothing in the way of substantive critique, so much as just a series of highly opinionated statements.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

21 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Railjack would like to differ, Mind you, even after reading the wiki, players new to RJ still don't know what to do.

Then that's their problem. What's difficult about putting mods on a ship and shooting stuff? 

It says in the screen "shoot stuff, follow waypoint, shoot more stuff,  and extract." 

You have mod slots just like a warframe and you can rank up the slot itself as well as the mod. 

[Teridax68]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then that's their problem. What's difficult about putting mods on a ship and shooting stuff? 

It says in the screen "shoot stuff, follow waypoint, shoot more stuff,  and extract." 

You have mod slots just like a warframe and you can rank up the slot itself as well as the mod. 

Well, for one, the mods work a bit differently on Railjack, as do all of the damage and status types, and the weapons are upgraded differently as well. It's also not just "shooting stuff", it's choosing whether to man a turret, operate the foundry to craft a variety of different consumable resources (or refine other resources obtained along the way, which you don't keep otherwise), take care of various hazards using a gear item, go out in Archwing, or pilot a ship. Crewships can't just be shot down, they need to be dealt with in specific ways, whether it be by entering them and sabotaging them on the inside, or aiming a piece of the Railjack's weaponry made only available through an Intrinsic at a very specific part of the ship. Railjack also uses a new button to open a tactical menu, where some abilities are located, while others are only made available when manning a turret or piloting the ship. None of this is communicated clearly to the player, which is why so many players continue to find themselves confused when trying out Railjack for the first time.

[keikogi]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The enemy is hit in the head. For area-of-effect damage, the center of the damage must hit the head for this to apply.

I miss penta head shots. I loved that play style off lobbing grenades right over enemies head.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The attacker is invisible.

I would restric this to only melee attacks auto crit while invisible. Boderlamds has a similar system and flack skill that allowed him to fire weapons without breaking stealth was remarkable strong. 

 

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Finishers, which are special melee animations that occur when attacking or interacting with enemies under certain conditions. These animations have the player attack for increased damage, and can occur if an enemy is knocked to the ground, unalerted, or made vulnerable to finishers through certain effects. The damage multiplier for this animation's attack varies for every weapon and for each of the four different possible finishers, and three of those will also convert the attack to deal True damage (not ground finishers, though), with stealth damage multiplying this multiplier. Guess which weapon class has the best stealth finisher multiplier? If you guessed hammers, you are correct! Daggers, by contrast, have the worst stealth finisher multiplier. Go figure.

I think finishers should be kept around but just all rolled into the mercy system,  so if your weapon does not one shot from stealth you can still take down the enemy. 

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Critical Chamber: If every attack from the current magazine was a critical hit, gain + 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60% reload speed and critical damage on the next magazine, stacking infinitely. Usable on the Vectis

Don't ever use indefinitely,  things will get silly 

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

the damage bonus to expire, instead increasing it by 25 / 50 / 75 / 100%, stacking infinitely. Augments Mesa's Ballistic Battery

Same as above.

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Impersonal Touch: Killing an enemy with a critical hit causes the next attack to teleport behind the target from up to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 meters away and critically hit. Usable on the Karyst

It's good and it's meme.

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Active Camouflage: + 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds of invisibility upon killing an enemy with a critical hit

Unless this is fake invisibility ( dispels before the strike) tje mod is way to good both offensively and dsfensensivle.

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Critical Mass: On critical hit, + 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% Power Strength on the next ability cast, stacking up to 3 times

I like the idea but it has a massive bias towards automatic weapons. It's better to just have on critical hit 50% power str.

 

I really like the general idea off rolling a bunch off system into one and making it more skill based tham wiki based. The mods are in general quite good as well.

[Teridax68]

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I miss penta head shots. I loved that play style off lobbing grenades right over enemies head.

Indeed, the idea behind this specific part was actually the instances of damage negation in the game, where a lot of AoE damage does nothing to enemies with invincibility hitboxes because the entire attack's damage is negated the moment it hits an invincibility zone. AoE shouldn't auto-crit, obviously, but should still be able to hit if the player aims the thing like a non-AoE shot.

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I would restric this to only melee attacks auto crit while invisible. Boderlamds has a similar system and flack skill that allowed him to fire weapons without breaking stealth was remarkable strong. 

If the effect were to favor ranged weapons disproportionately, for sure restricting the crits to melee (as is sort of the case now with stealth multipliers being melee-exclusive) would help against that.

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I think finishers should be kept around but just all rolled into the mercy system,  so if your weapon does not one shot from stealth you can still take down the enemy. 

That's fair enough, though mercies are precisely why I think finishers are all the more obsolete. We now have two different special animation systems for dealing massive single-target damage in melee range, and I think one is already more than enough. If there were some way to combine the two into a unified system, that could be worth having.

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Don't ever use indefinitely,  things will get silly 

Same as above.

Honestly, let them get silly here. If the player can get infinite headshots and never miss, they deserve to get that ludicrous damage increase for their trouble, which eventually caps out of its own accord if the player ends up one-shotting every enemy with a crit, which is already a distinct possibility at most levels.

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

It's good and it's meme.

Thank you, and good catch! 😉

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Unless this is fake invisibility ( dispels before the strike) tje mod is way to good both offensively and dsfensensivle.

I'd say in absolutes, it's probably not the best to have warframes enter invisibility for any significant periods of time, but in an environment where Arcane Trickery is a thing, I don't think the risk is that great.

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I like the idea but it has a massive bias towards automatic weapons. It's better to just have on critical hit 50% power str.

That's fair enough, and I agree that there is a concern with rapid-fire weapons here. A one-time bonus here on a crit kill might make the effect more balanced across attack types.

6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I really like the general idea off rolling a bunch off system into one and making it more skill based tham wiki based. The mods are in general quite good as well.

Thank you very much! If you have any mod ideas as well, feel free to share them; I'll put them in the OP.

[keikogi]

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Honestly, let them get silly here. If the player can get infinite headshots and never miss, they deserve to get that ludicrous damage increase for their trouble, which eventually caps out of its own accord if the player ends up one-shotting every enemy with a crit, which is already a distinct possibility at most levels.

The problem is warframe has infinity scaling , and  lot off really hard cc ( they kinda off remove most off the skill requirements ). So at long runs people will be fueled to the infinite solution. 10 stacks does the trick off rewarding precision but does not feel horrible to loose 10 stacks. It's just a chink on the game damage system waiting to be exploited. 

Also I would argue that the cap helps jt to reward skill at aiming and not caution. If there no cap waiting until you can set up the enemy is more value than just firing quick on the head  because of the risk involved on the quick fire. The dps gained with caution scales indefinitely,  but the dps gained by aiming fast is limited. 

 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

27 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go here, because at the end of the day, Warframe has notable gaps in how it teaches the player its moves: it gives scant information on how to bullet jump, for example, despite that being arguably the most important move in our parkour system, there's no real information given on most of the missions we run, and more to the point, the game does a terrible job of explaining how body part multipliers, finisher damage multipliers, and stealth damage multipliers all work. It is not "hand holding" to educate the player on these matters or at the very least give them proper information about those systems in-game, rather than expect players to go to the wiki instead.

This is an issue many more players than myself have complained about, an issue DE have themselves acknowledged, so wilfully ignoring it here is little more than taking a contrarian stance in bad faith. Asking for this to change is not asking for an entirely new version of the game, and opposing this purely on the grounds that it would have the game change in some way (in no way that would inconvenience you, either) makes it look like you just don't like critical feedback, a stance that becomes all the more apparent the more one notices your posts on these forums. If you don't like it when people give feedback on the feedback forums, you are most welcome to go spend your time elsewhere. If you are to post here, though, do please try to be respectful and constructive.

If you are so keenly intent on not using any of the tools at your disposal that would grant you invisibility, you can enjoy your build that you deliberately constructed to not feature invisibility. Why would you feel entitled to anything different?

Does it matter? It's one you're guaranteed to obtain via a quest, so it will be made available to you. As you should well know, what with you having read all of the game's tips, equipping the right tool for the job is key.

And Arcane Trickery lasts for 30 seconds, giving the player plenty of time to trigger enough finishers to prolong the effects. My effect, by contrast, lasts 4 seconds, so if you want to maintain that cover, you'd best get cracking with those crit kills.

Because subsumable abilities aren't supposed to be the core ability in a warframe's kit? As mentioned above already, there are plenty of far stronger, far more reliable ways of obtaining invisibility for any warframe, so you really are making a lot of noise about nothing. Tell me, out of curiosity, where are you getting your facts from here? What empirical data do you have supporting the notion that my suggestion would be overpowered? You came to me demanding data, yet when I asked the same of you, you've remained curiously silent on the matter.

You do know that Sortie defense objectives are people that can be revived, right? If you doubt me, I'd recommend running a Sortie; it's a little more difficult than your usual Star Chart, but I'm sure you'll manage just fine.

I don't know, why don't they? More to the point, why is this relevant to the discussion at hand?

And this is bad, because... ? Weapons with low crit chance already crit "just because", so I really don't know what you're on about here. I would, once again, recommend you read what I posted in suggestion, as I explicitly listed the following method of differentiating crit-focused weapons from the rest:

Given that what I listed above clearly contradicts your assumption that crit and non-crit weapons would be balanced the same, I would thus gently reiterate my request for you to give the things you are discussing a proper read before dismissing them.

Easy to attain... by which standard? Because by current standards, as you yourself admitted, crits can be guaranteed on several weapons, and with that bring hefty, permanent damage multipliers. Similarly, going invisible already gives your melee attacks a guaranteed 8x stealth damage multiplier, so I really am not making crits any easier to obtain than the various conditional multipliers we have now. Evidently, you are not quite as knowledgeable about the subject as you had previously claimed, so I would kindly insist that you do the necessary research, either by consulting the wiki or reading this thread's original post, before continuing to argue, particularly since at this point you are offering nothing in the way of substantive critique, so much as just a series of highly opinionated statements.

If a player is so completely devoid of a modicum of self sufficiency or resourcefulness, then yes, the game should help that person. But until the issue is addressed, they still have plenty of resources for help until the issue is fixed. There's not really any excuses at this point.

Regarding invisibility, you already mentioned the many ways non-visibility frames can utilize invisibility on a consistent basis, so why do we also need a mod that gives invisibility for something as simple as giving a single crit? Why can't the player use the current means to synergize with the available means to become invisible to achieve crits? 

You just said the Helminth isn't supposed to be the core ability of a warframes kit, correct? So why is a single mod any different? Why should a single mod be the core ability of a warframes kit? All I have to do is put it on my warframe and grab a Bramma and get a crit, correct? Free instant refreshable invisibility for every single warframe is completely ok, correct? 

Where are your facts coming from that your system you just made up and provided as feedback as wouldn't be overpowered? Since you're claiming DE didn't make Loki and ivaras invisibility available to all frames because "the Helminth isn't supposed to be the core ability of a warframes kit", yet a mod that basically does the same thing is totally ok, right? How convenient. 

Did you know that sortie defense NPCs can be protected before they actually die? Once again. How is that one instance of revival going to keep them protected throughout the mission? 

Please let me know how a low crit weapon crits "just because"? Because they don't just randomly crit. Once again, where is this data coming from? How or where are you getting this data that a weapon crits just because? When you can look at the weapon's stats? It's all right there for you to see. 

Go ahead and ask DE to give the Proboscis Cernos a 50% base crit chance and see what happens. Do you know why that wouldn't happen? Because it already has aoe and 43% status. Can you maybe take a guess as to why that wouldn't happen? Just out of curiosity....

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Well, for one, the mods work a bit differently on Railjack, as do all of the damage and status types, and the weapons are upgraded differently as well. It's also not just "shooting stuff", it's choosing whether to man a turret, operate the foundry to craft a variety of different consumable resources (or refine other resources obtained along the way, which you don't keep otherwise), take care of various hazards using a gear item, go out in Archwing, or pilot a ship. Crewships can't just be shot down, they need to be dealt with in specific ways, whether it be by entering them and sabotaging them on the inside, or aiming a piece of the Railjack's weaponry made only available through an Intrinsic at a very specific part of the ship. Railjack also uses a new button to open a tactical menu, where some abilities are located, while others are only made available when manning a turret or piloting the ship. None of this is communicated clearly to the player, which is why so many players continue to find themselves confused when trying out Railjack for the first time.

I figured it out on the free space flying portion, just so there's no pressure to complete an objective or get attacked. They give you the option to fly around and do nothing. You can learn how the slingshot works, how the tactical menu works and adjusting the controls in the options if needed for easy reflexes etc.

[Teoarrk]

Fleeting Shadow  - Dark Dagger mod - Enemies will take an additional 0.5/1/1.5/2 seconds to spot you while undetected. +150/300/450/600 critical damage when attacking from behind.

Butcher's Derision - Scindo mod - Attacks against enemies on the ground deal +100/200/300/400 critical damage.

Sapper's Subterfuge - Fragor mod - Slam attacks against unalerted enemies deal +100/200/300/400 critical damage. Lifted enemies do not scream for 1/2/3/4 seconds.

Thats all I got for now. Let me know if this is what you had in mind @Teridax68

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

Fleeting Shadow  - Dark Dagger mod - Enemies will take an additional 0.5/1/1.5/2 seconds to spot you while undetected. +150/300/450/600 critical damage when attacking from behind.

Butcher's Derision - Scindo mod - Attacks against enemies on the ground deal +100/200/300/400 critical damage.

Sapper's Subterfuge - Fragor mod - Slam attacks against unalerted enemies deal +100/200/300/400 critical damage. Lifted enemies do not scream for 1/2/3/4 seconds.

Thats all I got for now. Let me know if this is what you had in mind @Teridax68

Those look fantastic, yes! Adding those to the main post.

11 hours ago, keikogi said:

The problem is warframe has infinity scaling , and  lot off really hard cc ( they kinda off remove most off the skill requirements ). So at long runs people will be fueled to the infinite solution. 10 stacks does the trick off rewarding precision but does not feel horrible to loose 10 stacks. It's just a chink on the game damage system waiting to be exploited. 

Also I would argue that the cap helps jt to reward skill at aiming and not caution. If there no cap waiting until you can set up the enemy is more value than just firing quick on the head  because of the risk involved on the quick fire. The dps gained with caution scales indefinitely,  but the dps gained by aiming fast is limited. 

Those are fair points. Tempting as infinity is (and I'd still like to see how an infinite version of the above plays out), there is a risk that if players find a way to obtain free infinite crits (and given how much stuff goes on in Warframe, that's a definite possibility), they might go off the rails with those scalings.

11 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If a player is so completely devoid of a modicum of self sufficiency or resourcefulness, then yes, the game should help that person. But until the issue is addressed, they still have plenty of resources for help until the issue is fixed. There's not really any excuses at this point.

Wanting to understand a game isn't being devoid of self-sufficiency or resourcefulness, it's the opposite. You seem to be under the impression that admitting ignorance and wanting to learn are weaknesses, rather than strengths, a toxic mentality that belies your attitude in this argument. As it stands, Warframe blatantly doesn't list many bits of vital information, in this specific instance finisher multipliers (and why they differ from animation to animation), the stealth damage multiplier and how it scales, how body part multipliers work, and how crit scales. DE has no excuse for not having their game properly teach players its mechanics, and you have no excuse arguing against improvements to the game's ability to convey vital information.

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Regarding invisibility, you already mentioned the many ways non-visibility frames can utilize invisibility on a consistent basis, so why do we also need a mod that gives invisibility for something as simple as giving a single crit? Why can't the player use the current means to synergize with the available means to become invisible to achieve crits? 

Because it's good to have more options? Why argue for less build diversity when you claimed to defend it but a few posts ago?

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You just said the Helminth isn't supposed to be the core ability of a warframes kit, correct? So why is a single mod any different? Why should a single mod be the core ability of a warframes kit? All I have to do is put it on my warframe and grab a Bramma and get a crit, correct? Free instant refreshable invisibility for every single warframe is completely ok, correct? 

Wait, why would this mod be the core ability of a Warframe's kit? This is like saying Health Conversion is the core of Nekros's kit, simply because he makes use of the mod really well. I do believe that in the game's current context, free refreshable invisibility for every single warframe is in fact fine, given that it's already available to us in a multitude of ways. You appear to be severely distorting the focus on the facts here based on what ultimately seems to be only your own subjective feelings, which themselves are not only bereft of factual basis, but are contradicted by existing evidence.

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Where are your facts coming from that your system you just made up and provided as feedback as wouldn't be overpowered?

Explain to me how that burden of proof works, if you please. What exact protocol are you asking me to follow here?

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Since you're claiming DE didn't make Loki and ivaras invisibility available to all frames because "the Helminth isn't supposed to be the core ability of a warframes kit", yet a mod that basically does the same thing is totally ok, right? How convenient. 

Mechanics and abilities are two very different things, and a warframe's core ability can have some of the same mechanics as non-core abilities, mods, and so on, as evidenced by Loki and Ivara's invisibility effects being core to their kit, yet also sharing the same invisibility effect as Arcane Trickery or the Skiajati's passive. I'm rather confused by the point you are trying to argue here, as it is not only based on what seems to be a deliberate confusion of terms, but is easily disproven by content that exists in the game already, without even needing to talk about my own suggestions.

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Did you know that sortie defense NPCs can be protected before they actually die?

And this is relevant... why?

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Once again. How is that one instance of revival going to keep them protected throughout the mission? 

Because it prevents you from losing the mission? You're going to have to explain what your line of argumentation is here, because it doesn't appear to relate at all to the topic of discussion.

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Please let me know how a low crit weapon crits "just because"?

Because they still have a crit chance? You do understand how crit works, right?

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Because they don't just randomly crit.

They literally do randomly crit. That is literally what any weapon with a nonzero crit chance does.

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Once again, where is this data coming from? How or where are you getting this data that a weapon crits just because? When you can look at the weapon's stats? It's all right there for you to see. 

Literally the game? And the wiki? It appears you have severely misunderstood how crit works in Warframe, and I urge you to research it on the wiki, so that you may avoid embarrassing yourself further.

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Go ahead and ask DE to give the Proboscis Cernos a 50% base crit chance and see what happens. Do you know why that wouldn't happen? Because it already has aoe and 43% status. Can you maybe take a guess as to why that wouldn't happen? Just out of curiosity....

Given that the Proboscis Cernos is a fairly mediocre weapon, I don't think a 50% base crit chance would make it go off the rails, and if you doubt this, I invite you to do the math, compare with other weapons, and come back to me with your results. I can agree that DE would be unlikely to buff the weapon in that manner, though more because they're generally apathetic about balancing their content outside of massive arsenal passes or the occasional emergency hotfix, and less because they'd believe the weapon would be OP as a result. If you happen to have an insider look into DE that I'm not aware of, do let me know, but as it stands I don't think you really get to speak for the developers here, much as you appear to want to.

11 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I figured it out on the free space flying portion, just so there's no pressure to complete an objective or get attacked. They give you the option to fly around and do nothing. You can learn how the slingshot works, how the tactical menu works and adjusting the controls in the options if needed for easy reflexes etc.

But seriously, though, bragging about how good you are at the video game isn't going to make for a convincing argument, it just looks pathetic and desperate. Even if you did figure out the entirety of Railjack on your own with no problems (and I somehow doubt that), that would not entitle you to dismiss the experience of other players who had more trouble with the mode. Your account of your own experience also does not counter the fact that the game practically hides some of the mode's core systems, such as its tactical menu, and otherwise does not employ easily implementable means of bringing those systems to the player's attention. I would recommend against continuing to argue dismissively like this in the future, as it not only fails to contribute constructively to discussion, but also just comes across as a bit gross.

[keikogi]

A few ideas for mods.

Last regard ( pandero mod ) - the last shot off the magazine has 1000% critical damage, minimum mag of 6.

Head Seeker ( non automatic pistols ) - crititical damage , bullets bounces on crit 

Helmet Craker ( penta ) - on critical hit , ignores a portion of the enemy armor and shields.

Deadly blossoms ( Castanas ) - on critical hit ( on the explosion) - 3 castanas spam from the explosion seeking out nearby enemies.

Analyzer (gamacor ) - scans enemies upon critical hit kill, if thr enemy has its codex complete deal adaptative damage on critical  instead of magnet damage.

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, keikogi said:

A few ideas for mods.

Last regard ( pandero mod ) - the last shot off the magazine has 1000% critical damage, minimum mag of 6.

Head Seeker ( non automatic pistols ) - crititical damage , bullets bounces on crit 

Helmet Craker ( penta ) - on critical hit , ignores a portion of the enemy armor and shields.

Deadly blossoms ( Castanas ) - on critical hit ( on the explosion) - 3 castanas spam from the explosion seeking out nearby enemies.

Analyzer (gamacor ) - scans enemies upon critical hit kill, if thr enemy has its codex complete deal adaptative damage on critical  instead of magnet damage.

These look good! I'll edit in some numbers and add them to the main post.