Crit and Warframe's mess of damage multipliers

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

agree, I think it's clear that a large part of our new melee system came from someone in a position of power playing the new Devil May Cry

Man i wish, but if you play DMC and then switch to Warframe, the only thing youll find similar is instant weapon switching which i think feels really really good in warframe. Like no one would want to see that go because it fits so well

Nothing else is alike, play them and you should be convinced that Warframe didnt try at all to mimic DMC. 

If They Did Try

You'd see combos doing different things to the enemy like throwing them in the air (not... floating???), thrown against a wall, spinning, & triping them

The fighting would look like youre in an action movie. Whats better is youd feel like you are doing it, that you are in control of what happens next to the enemy, giving you a sense of immersion. In warframe, combos cause the enemy randomly start flying or just get staggered, does things to em that you didnt really want to do

You'd see that switching weapons doesnt make you lose anything, only gain. Every weapon deals decent damage and helps keep up your "style rating"

In warframe, "style rating" would be combo count. It build on off of everything as opposed to just melee. Melee Heavy attack wouldnt consume it all either, as DMC likes to reward you for making the choice to use what it wants you to use. Expect kills to drop energy orbs, health, or prehaps build your devil trigger on a heavy attack, instead of it making you lose all your crit damage to kill 1 enemy.

You'd see enemies that require you to not go completly brain dead, with attacks that you can and must dodge

Meaning a high priority targets like grineer bombards would not be a bullet sponge but be an actual threat to your survivavl.  Bombard would fire multiple rockets at high speeds when you are far away, with a notiification because theyd be that unfair without one. You'd have the option to either shoot or dodge them, otherwise youll be 1 shot. If you choose to shoot and miss when a misile is too close, dodging might be too hard now, but if you hit them all youd be rewarded with Combo points or something.

More enemies would put you in situations like this to make your eyes light up as you prepare and take your brain activity from 0% to 5%

 

All that above sounds like fun imo, like it fits warframe.

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Man i wish, but if you play DMC and then switch to Warframe, the only thing youll find similar is instant weapon switching which i think feels really really good in warframe. Like no one would want to see that go because it fits so well

Nothing else is alike, play them and you should be convinced that Warframe didnt try at all to mimic DMC. 

If They Did Try

You'd see combos doing different things to the enemy like throwing them in the air (not... floating???), thrown against a wall, spinning, triping, etc

The fighting would look like youre in an action movie. Whats better is youd feel like you are doing it, that you are in control of what happens next to the enemy, giving you a sense of immersion. In warframe the enemy randomly starts flying or just gets staggered.

You'd see that switching weapons doesnt make you lose anything, only gain. Every weapon deals decent damage and helps keep up your "style rating"

In warframe, "style rating" would be combo count. It build on off of everything as opposed to just melee. Melee Heavy attack wouldnt consume it all either, as DMC likes to reward you for making the choice to use what it wants you to use. Expect kills to drop energy orbs, health, or prehaps build your devil trigger on a heavy attack, instead of it making you lose all your crit damage to kill 1 enemy.

You'd see enemies that require you to not go completly brain dead, with attacks that you can and must dodge

Meaning a high priority targets like grineer bombards would not be a bullet sponge but be an actual threat to your survivavl like a toxic acient's pull attack except itd be 'barely' fair at being dodgable (giving you the minimum amount of time to save yourself).  Bombard would fire multiple rockets at high speeds when you are far away, with a notiification that you can either shoot or dodge, otherwise youll be 1 shot. It would make your eyes light up as you prepare to defend yourself

 

All that above sounds like fun imo, like it fits warframe.

DE straight up said it was inpired by DMC. Just because someone copied an idea from someone else , does not mean the copy works well. 

I still remenber DE unvelieng melee 2,999999999999999999999999999999999999 and rebeca strugling to use the lifted status because the attack that proced the lifted status also killed the enemy making the whole lifted pointless. 

Also the whole throw enemies in the air is a rather pointless endeveor in waframe ( speeking out of my ancient knowledge from dmc 3 ) , in dmc throwing enemies into the air was stylish but it also protected you from alot off the melee shaft on the game. In warframe most of the enemies are ranged so standing still mid air is more dangerous than moving foward while meling. 

At last  the style ratting has some arcane engine the forces diversity off attacks to raise it , thing that de missed completely becasue they were desining a melee system not a combat system. To this the feature I was most hyped from melee 2.999 was instant weapon switch but that guy on twiter prevented it from happening 

About enemies, DE seems to focus on overall power and not conterplay when desining enemies. I´m a firm beleiver that if the game added the red coolaid balista that literally kills the player if he does not block wiht melee or dodge (literally bypasses any ability or ammount of EHP ) , it would not be that big off deal because the conterplay window is so masssive, however the game floods you with nonsesnse like drain eximus that sap you out off power with an invesilbe aura that works torught walls 

 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

DE straight up said

I know thats my point, They said, but didnt do it. Nothing is even 1/10 of copy of DMC in Warframe and im not even exaggerating (except of course instant weapon swapping)

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

rebeca strugling to use the lifted status

This was never meant to function like DMC im near convinced. The lifted status acts as a form of CC not for airborne fighting or style, just for fighting grounded enemies. DMC doesnt offer this. For fighting in the air, DE has access to the melee combat in archwing that brings the player to a floating enemy, all DE would have to do is place enemies high in the air and then let the player use archwing melee attacks that snaps you to each enemy. Poof, attacking enemies in the air now looks stylish and feels good

And i think its not that DE cant put the enemies high in the air and then put them in a "rhino stomp" state, its that they didnt want to. I mean Vaubans 4th lifts enemies higher than the "lifted status". I cant be convinced that they tried lol

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

Also the whole throw enemies in the air is a rather pointless endeveor

Its as pointless as performing different grounded combo attacks really. Look cool but doesnt really help you as opposed to just performing 2 attacks quickly.

Combos were added to warframe for style alone, thats why i ask to fight enemies in the air, not for it to add damage, for it to make combat entertaining, more than the 1 to 2 combo. The extra bit of entertainment control over your attacks can be way more fun than forced lift effects inbetween combos that you didnt ask to trigger

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

in dmc throwing enemies into the air was stylish but it also protected you from alot off the melee shaft on the game

Parkour reduces enemies accuracy which helps reduce damage, a knock up could be an excellent way to reduce the heat and keep the damage going, and knock the enemy back down to the ground before you start taking too much damage in the air. 

Theres many ways to make it work when a dev is basically a god that decides how dangerous anything is

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

window is so masssive

If it werent massive and had to be done repeatedly, there are many games that show that even the best players players tend to have trouble with it. The lower the window, the more instances you have to work within the window, and the more you have to switch up what you were doing like something as simple as pressing O and then having to press X, the harder it gets (guitar hero is a game for proof. It can get really hard).

Thing is, having to press O and then X is easy, having to move in a certain direction, aim and shoot, double jump, etc, all under a constant short window thats near the same window that guitar hero can give to a player?

That can get really, really hard. Doable but hard without possibly breaking a finger. 

 

 

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Surprise only works once, though

well, yeah. and then after that, they'll either shoot or be about to shoot, and in both cases notice "wait, that doesn't work on this dude" and change what their plan was. idunno, i think that works. it's a small detour from what you were expecting to do, on one dude here and there.

Duck, Duck, Goose - but with a Gun, if you will.

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, Warframe does have a fair bit of body horror, plus plenty of humanoid-ish enemies whose "heads" aren't where they're supposed to be, so I'd say bring on the deformed monstrosities 

oh how i wish Chargers' Heads actually worked correctly. instead of being broken for the past.... a lotta Years.

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

whether or not one keeps stances, and if one does, those should help enhance the differences between weapons of the same class rather than homogenize them.

totes, like uh, Iron Phoenixs' explosion thing, takes innate attributes from the Weapon so it applies a different Status Effect depending on which Weapon you're using. which is neat.
not groundbreaking, but still makes the Weapons a bit different from one another even while you're doing the same thing with both.

 

4 hours ago, keikogi said:

I kind thing this whole discussion comes down to visual clarity and lack of gameplay purpose

I kinda think melee was ruined by trying harder to look cool them have a gameplay loop. Combo never worked as indented ( build up combo,  pay-off on charge attack ) since charge attack builds mostly ignore thr build up part and spam build ignore the whole actually use the combo instead off building it up endlessly.

indeed, special things looking special, goes a long way. another option ofcourse is setting a global status quo. while there's a few exceptions, Monster Hunter sets up a pretty consistent status quo of that you can impair/Damage any part of a Monster, on every Monster. if it has something grown on it to poke you with, you can get rid of that. you can Damage its Legs, Body, Head, Tail, Wings, every single body part (generally). that's a good status quo to set, telling the Player that they can always do __ things no matter what they're fighting. then the special stuff doesn't have to all be glowing.
but, for Warframes' purpose, having things be marked with sharp colors and/or glow, is the more practical ay.

building Hits and depleting them also never really worked out because of the number of Enemies. it's not like Dork Souls or something, where hitting anything say, 20 times to be able to hit with a special or extra high Damage attack would be useful on a single particularly high Health Enemy or a Boss or something.
instead in Warframe you're generally in a big crowd of mostly the same dudes. building hits to power strike the same dudes that you built the hits from, is not really very useful. you either Killed those dudes fine before the Charge anyways, or you could hardly Damage them without the Charge and then that just makes everything feel tedious.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

As for this post, warframe is complex but id rather explain it than condense it

Like what you said about the moa weakpoints, sounds like something that the codex scanner should reveal to you about the enemy. After a few encounter with an enemy, the codex scanner reveals a canister somewhere on the enemy. You go and attack the weak spot and when you shoot it enough, the enemy explodes

Thats fun imo

There should be a proper balance between complexity and simplicity, i dont think warframe is creating too much complexity in this situation. Just bad tutorials

Warframe is a restaurant without a menu

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

55 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it's not like Dork Souls or something, where hitting anything say, 20 times to be able to hit with a special or extra high Damage attack would be useful on a single particularly high Health Enemy or a Boss or something.
instead in Warframe you're generally in a big crowd of mostly the same dudes. building hits to power strike the same dudes that you built the hits from, is not really very useful. you either Killed those dudes fine before the Charge anyways, or you could hardly Damage them without the Charge and then that just makes everything feel tedious

This was so well said. Steel Path made me use heavy attacks more to get rid of Acolytes, but still, you are so right

"Dork souls" 😂

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

 

"I did indeed say that and... no? I don't quite understand what you mean by "[my] update's narrative", as I mentioned Inaros specifically in response to someone bringing up his passive, and gave an explanation of how he could be adjusted in view of the changes I'm suggesting to retain it. None of that had anything to do with the build diversity of weapons, which you tried to argue had diverse builds by bringing up frames, itself a complete non-sequitur. I would advise you give up this line of argumentation, as it has little to do with the subject of crit itself and the manner in which I'm suggesting to change it."

I would advise you to make an attempt to actually know what you're talking about. All the guy was said was "RIP Inaros players" with a copy pasted excerpt of your terrible suggestion of removing finisher and stealth damage multipliers. How is that "specifically in response to someone bringing up his passive"? Please explain if you're able.

"Where?"

Where are your youtube videos? Which videos and similar services show finishers are hardly used? I'd advise you to also realize YouTube videos are not actual data. Common sense and intuition once again. 

"Please do if you fancy, and better yet, please explain how adding more information to the game would make the systems in question more intuitive, which as outlined above is not a problem solved by adding more descriptive text. In the meantime, feel free to refer to the critique suggestion of my thread's original post which, as stated already, lists many more reasons to change the systems being discussed beyond just counter-intuitive design, as the "fix" you are proposing here would not address those criticisms at all."

You made the claim that the game didn't explain things, so my suggestion literally solves the issue. You said people shouldn't have to read a wiki? Yes or no? Once again, reading and learning is a basic tenet of being a human. Instead of ruining the game because "it doesn't explain anything" and isn't "intuitive", adding more explanations for the player to learn about the system therefore prevents you from saying the game doesn't explain anything. 

The rest of your posts are literally only your opinion. Your opinion is not a fact. YouTube videos are not facts. If you think the game has too many systems and adds little in the way of gameplay and builds....that's an opinion, as not everyone agrees with you. In my opinion the game offers many gameplay avenues and hundreds of different builds which is great for the game and enriches it even further. 

A permutation is "a way, especially one of several possible variations, in which a set or number of things can be ordered or arranged."

Your feedback and suggestions literally lower build diversity and permutations in the game by your own definition. We don't need the game simplified just because some random person wants to put the least amount of effort possible into the game. People worked hard to build this world and we don't need it torn down for low effort players.

Also, the Bramma was adjusted due to overperformance.....it was an outlier...because low effort players could wipe the map with no forma....are you denying this could have possibly factored into it "becoming a top pick shortly after its release"? 

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

sounds like something that the codex scanner should reveal to you about the enemy. After a few encounter with an enemy, the codex scanner reveals a [...]

that's one way the game could go about it, yeah. i'd be all for the Codex showing you this stuff. would give more purpose to Scanning things, too. i'd even make Codex Scanning a longer process than it currently is for it, so that you progressively over time learn more about it. instead of just Health Types, also what parts are resistant of weak to Damage.
i'd want that to also include which parts are strong or weak to certain Damage Types, but people would probably complain about the game offering depth like that. even though i think that's a good way to help make Damage Types more equal. Enemy has an exposed computer or something, well anti-electronics Damage Types would either be the only way to break those parts, or would just break them much faster. Et Cetera.

5 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

This was so well said. Steel Path made me use heavy attacks more to get rid of Acolytes, but still, you are so right

"Dork souls"

i kinda just shoot the Acolytes as long as i don't get hit by Bullet Attractor first and oneshot myself, but whichever works for people.

and hey man, Dork Souls is sorta one of my more favored game Series - there's still some BS once in a while but frankly far less often than in Warframe, let alone other games. some of my most memorable BS moments whether in or against my favor, were times of hitbox porn anyways, and it's hard for me to be mad about that happening.

[Teridax68]

17 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

If They Did Try

You'd see combos doing different things to the enemy like throwing them in the air (not... floating???), thrown against a wall, spinning, & triping them

I definitely agree that Warframe's take on DMC's combat is... less than accurate, though I also question the possibility of DMC's combat ever working well in Warframe. The main problem is that games like DMC, Bayonetta, etc. make even the weakest fodder enemies tough enough to take a few hits, because that's how combos are set up and maintained. By contrast, Warframe's combat is much faster-paced, because we chug through enemies far quicker and kill even the toughest of regular foes within a couple of seconds. Those fighting games also pit the player in a series of combat arenas where they're encouraged to dance around the place as part of their combos, whereas Warframe has the player going consistently in one direction in most cases, and rarely wants to make them reverse mid-fight. Warframe isn't really a game about elaborate combos, let alone juggling individual enemies, it's a game about going from one enemy to the next and, ideally, using a diverse array of attacks, abilities, and maneuvers along the way.

14 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

There should be a proper balance between complexity and simplicity, i dont think warframe is creating too much complexity in this situation. Just bad tutorials

I don't think complexity is really a strength in and of itself, because complexity is just the amount of information a player has to know to make use of something. The valuable thing you get from complexity is depth, i.e. the amount of valid choices you can make. Given that simpler games have managed to extract far more depth from their combat systems, I do think Warframe has a degree of useless complexity that it could get rid of. No other game really asks the player to read in-depth tutorials and use a non-combat tool, let alone read a wiki, just to figure out which spot to hit on a common enemy for maximum damage, and I don't think there really is value to asking all that from players just so they can do things that normally need little to no explanation at all.

14 hours ago, taiiat said:

well, yeah. and then after that, they'll either shoot or be about to shoot, and in both cases notice "wait, that doesn't work on this dude" and change what their plan was. idunno, i think that works. it's a small detour from what you were expecting to do, on one dude here and there.

Indeed, but what I mean is more in terms of long-term play. After the first few times, that enemy becomes part of the roster you'll fight regularly, and at that point you'll have figured out how that enemy works, so there's no surprise at that stage to determining where to shoot. Thus, the enemy just becomes this one unit that needs to be shot somewhere other than the head. If there were some sort of random armor system where common enemies could randomly have certain body parts covered with an extra layer of protection and/or others left vulnerable, you'd be able to keep the element of surprise, though that may be a bit too complex, to say nothing of the technical implications.

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oh how i wish Chargers' Heads actually worked correctly. instead of being broken for the past.... a lotta Years.

Exact same here...

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totes, like uh, Iron Phoenixs' explosion thing, takes innate attributes from the Weapon so it applies a different Status Effect depending on which Weapon you're using. which is neat.
not groundbreaking, but still makes the Weapons a bit different from one another even while you're doing the same thing with both.

Indeed, that's a good example I think of how to do a stance move right. Augmenting the properties of the weapon being used means you can do more with any given weapon in ways that remain distinct, as opposed to most of the moves on most stances that are basically just animations.

12 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I would advise you to make an attempt to actually know what you're talking about. All the guy was said was "RIP Inaros players" with a copy pasted excerpt of your terrible suggestion of removing finisher and stealth damage multipliers. How is that "specifically in response to someone bringing up his passive"? Please explain if you're able.

Aw, look who's still not having fun.

As for knowing what I'm talking about... I literally wrote the OP, so I am in fact the one to know about the proposal I'm making. Didn't think this needed to be clarified, but here goes: the person mentioned "RIP Inaros players" while quoting my "terrible suggestion" because, as you ought to know, a major component to Inaros's passive is that he heals whenever he lands a finisher. The person thus clearly made the assumption that I would be removing or invalidating Inaros's passive, so I pointed out that the new system would let Inaros's blind open enemies up to crit, and also made the general suggestion of readjusting abilities dependent on the systems I'm removing to fit the new system, which in this case could involve making Inaros heal on melee crits (there are, of course, many other ways of going about this too). I therefore mentioned Inaros in specific response to someone voicing concerns about how Inaros's passive would work with the proposed changes. Would that explain it for you?

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Where are your youtube videos?

On YouTube?

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Which videos and similar services show finishers are hardly used?

The YouTube videos?

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I'd advise you to also realize YouTube videos are not actual data. Common sense and intuition once again. 

They literally are data, though. A large aggregate set of recordings of people playing Warframe is literally a data set, and if none of them show people using finishers to any significant extent, it is up to you to provide an explanation as to why. Not only is your argument dismissive in a manner that is clearly not rational, it also demonstrates a fundamental misunderstandings of statistics and data, which itself makes your repeated requests for evidence all the more spurious, given that you don't seem to understand what actually constitutes evidence.

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You made the claim that the game didn't explain things, so my suggestion literally solves the issue.

Yes, and as explained already, that isn't the only issue, nor even the main issue. You have therefore been pointledly arguing beside the point the entire time.

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You said people shouldn't have to read a wiki? Yes or no?

Indeed, they shouldn't.

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Once again, reading and learning is a basic tenet of being a human.

That's not what a tenet is. Also, while being able to read and learn certainly are important, that does not excuse making things any more difficult to learn or understand than is necessary, which appears to be your argument.

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Instead of ruining the game because "it doesn't explain anything" and isn't "intuitive", adding more explanations for the player to learn about the system therefore prevents you from saying the game doesn't explain anything. 

Well no, because as already said several times, explaining something does not make it intuitive, so even that reductive goal wouldn't be achieved by your suggestion. I'm suggesting to "ruin" the game not simply because its systems are unintuitive and poorly-explained, but also because the gameplay they offer simply isn't as good or as deep as it could be. 

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The rest of your posts are literally only your opinion. Your opinion is not a fact.

I certainly agree my opinion isn't fact, and my proposals are, ultimately, the product of what in my opinion would be good for Warframe. That's what feedback and suggestions generally are, and if you don't like that, you are once again in the wrong place.

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YouTube videos are not facts.

You're right, they're not facts, they're evidence.

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If you think the game has too many systems and adds little in the way of gameplay and builds....that's an opinion, as not everyone agrees with you.

Oh, I completely agree, and not everyone needs to. My proposal isn't made with the expectation that everyone should agree, even if it certainly aims to provide arguments advocating in favor of it. By that same token, though, not everyone agrees with you either, nor should they, which also seems to be something you take issue with. As you may have noticed, plenty more people on this thread have offered disagreement in a healthy and productive way that's led to interesting and positive conversation; perhaps you could learn from that and start doing the same.

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In my opinion the game offers many gameplay avenues and hundreds of different builds which is great for the game and enriches it even further.

That nice, now list those gameplay avenues and "hundreds of different builds". I don't disagree that the game offers build diversity in some respects (there's more than one way to build any given frame in most cases), though in the case of weapon modding specifically, I don't think that's the case, and I do think that is a fact more than an opinion, as it is supported by evidence.

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A permutation is "a way, especially one of several possible variations, in which a set or number of things can be ordered or arranged."

Your feedback and suggestions literally lower build diversity and permutations in the game by your own definition.

How so? By which definition, exactly? I don't agree with this at all, as my OP now has many examples of potential mods enabled by my system, which would enrich the number of meaningful choices the player could make. You seem to be confusing reduction of a game's systems with reduction of meaningful choices here, and are continuing to be rather selective with the bits of my changes that you're choosing to acknowledge.

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We don't need the game simplified just because some random person wants to put the least amount of effort possible into the game. People worked hard to build this world and we don't need it torn down for low effort players.

This is a rather silly argument, as you haven't "worked hard" to contribute to this game at all, and the people who have actually worked hard have built the world of Warframe on player feedback, much like what I'm proposing here. I agree, the game oughtn't be simplified just on the word of one player, it should be simplified based on a combination of analysis and player feedback, which I'm helping to provide in however small a manner by taking the time and effort to write this thread. You seem to be misusing the language of hard work and a lot of very bold words to justify what is, in the end, a rather entitled attitude that tries to appropriate the actual hard work of others for your own ends, in this particular case trying to invent some sort of moral high ground from which to legitimize denouncing the very notion of giving feedback. If anything, you are the one tearing down other people's work, and making life difficult for DE in the process, by polluting feedback threads with ignorant and condescending rhetoric that merely adds noise to these forums.

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Also, the Bramma was adjusted due to overperformance.....it was an outlier...because low effort players could wipe the map with no forma....are you denying this could have possibly factored into it "becoming a top pick shortly after its release"? 

I am literally stating that the Bramma being "an outlier" through its exceptional strength is what caused it to become so popular so quickly, and generate so much discussion, so... welcome to the point. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

Out of curiosity, out of the 50,000+ players on warframe....how many of them are making YouTube videos? Is it even close to half? Are there 25,000 individual youtube players whose videos you've analyzed? 

Probably not...so what kind of sample size would you say that is? Are you using probably less than 1% of the player population to determine how the game should be? How many videos from how many individual youtubers have you observed, do you think? Because even if it was 50 individual channels it still wouldn't be enough of a sample size of the whole of warframe players. 

"As for knowing what I'm talking about... I literally wrote the OP, so I am in fact the one to know about the proposal I'm making. Didn't think this needed to be clarified, but here goes: the person mentioned "RIP Inaros players" while quoting my "terrible suggestion" because, as you ought to know, a major component to Inaros's passive is that he heals whenever he lands a finisher. The person thus clearly made the assumption that I would be removing or invalidating Inaros's passive, so I pointed out that the new system would let Inaros's blind open enemies up to crit, and also made the general suggestion of readjusting abilities dependent on the systems I'm removing to fit the new system, which in this case could involve making Inaros heal on melee crits (there are, of course, many other ways of going about this too). I therefore mentioned Inaros in specific response to someone voicing concerns about how Inaros's passive would work with the proposed changes. Would that explain it for you?"

Inaros wouldn't need the passive or ability fix if you didn't suggest such a bad nerf to stealth and finisher attacks. Unless you're going to add enough crit damage to make up for removal of the bonuses, in which case we wouldn't even need to implement such a bad change in the first place. 

It's not really weapon feedback if you literally have to change the entire game to fit around the new system, is it? 

 

"How so? By which definition, exactly? I don't agree with this at all, as my OP now has many examples of potential mods enabled by my system, which would enrich the number of meaningful choices the player could make. You seem to be confusing reduction of a game's systems with reduction of meaningful choices here, and are continuing to be rather selective with the bits of my changes that you're choosing to acknowledge."

I'm using your words. You want to condense the game because you can't figure it out, while others have no problem figuring the game out. You want to simplify the game by dumbing it down so much all you have to do is be within 10m of an enemy for infinite punch through and critical hits. That's just silly. Guns have certain base crit and status for a reason. How is getting a critical hit for simply standing in front of an enemy even remotely a good idea? No crit mods, just standing and shooting.....good luck getting that mod in the game. 

 

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Out of curiosity, out of the 50,000+ players on warframe....how many of them are making YouTube videos? Is it even close to half? Are there 25,000 individual youtube players whose videos you've analyzed? 

Probably not...so what kind of sample size would you say that is? Are you using probably less than 1% of the player population to determine how the game should be? How many videos from how many individual youtubers have you observed, do you think? Because even if it was 50 individual channels it still wouldn't be enough of a sample size of the whole of warframe players. 

You do realize how sample sizes work, right? One need not draw from a huge sample in order to get accurate results, and the fact that they pretty much all point towards the same conclusion means you're going to have to come up with a convincing argument for why everyone else would be using finishers a lot, just never on record. The fact that you made no effort to cite counterexamples or even pretend that your experience with this differs says enough on the matter.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Inaros wouldn't need the passive or ability fix if you didn't suggest such a bad nerf to stealth and finisher attacks.

How is this a nerf? Making Inaros heal off of melee crits would be a net buff, as it could trigger from many more things than just what would normally induce finishers. Again, for someone so keen to accuse me of not providing evidence and producing subjective statements, your argument here is both entirely subjective and baseless.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Unless you're going to add enough crit damage to make up for removal of the bonuses, in which case we wouldn't even need to implement such a bad change in the first place. 

... why would we need more crit damage here? The passive is a heal on finishers, so I would recommend brushing up on the subject matter first before going on this sort of rant.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's not really weapon feedback if you literally have to change the entire game to fit around the new system, is it? 

You do understand how systemic reworks work, right?

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm using your words.

Which words, then? So far you've been deliberately misrepresenting what I've said and at times outright making stuff up, so I'd like to see you start coming up with some substance to these claims, for once. Learning how to use the quote template on the forums properly would be a start. If you'd like, I can help you with that.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You want to condense the game because you can't figure it out, while others have no problem figuring the game out.

It seems you've completely misunderstood the entire thread, then, because my issue has never been that I can't figure out the game's damage systems. I've listed them out and the wiki articles from the very start, so your attempt to insult my intelligence here reflects only upon your attitude. I've certainly pointed out that they're not intuitive, and pointed out that many players do in fact have issues figuring them out when starting the game, because nobody is going to magically divine that table of finisher multipliers just from regular in-game play, not even you. I can, however, understand why you would confuse that with me continually failing to understand the game's systems, as you've failed to make the case for the game's systems being intuitive (mainly because you didn't seem to understand what it even meant for a thing to be intuitive), and visibly feel a need to insult me in retaliation.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You want to simplify the game by dumbing it down so much all you have to do is be within 10m of an enemy for infinite punch through and critical hits. That's just silly.

... on shotguns. Being strong in close quarters is kind of their thing. Once again, you find yourself guilty here of arguing purely on your own subjectivity, which raises the question of what your exact strategy is to convince anyone who doesn't share your opinion already.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Guns have certain base crit and status for a reason.

And that reason is... ?

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

How is getting a critical hit for simply standing in front of an enemy even remotely a good idea?

Wait, is there ever a situation where you won't be standing in front of an enemy when landing a critical hit against them? Do you realize the inanity of what you just said?

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No crit mods, just standing and shooting.....good luck getting that mod in the game. 

Wait, so are we talking about the shotgun mod or shooting unmodded? Because you'd need the mod for the above, and otherwise "standing and shooting" would only crit if you satisfied certain conditions, such as shooting enemies in the head or while they're unalerted, as opposed to the current situation where random crits really do mean you can crit just by "standing and shooting" with any weapon. The funniest part about these silly accusations you're throwing around is that they describe the present state of the game better than they do the system I'm proposing: throughout this entire spiteful little display of yours, you have somehow managed to argue against your own opposition, and confirm my own given reasons for replacing some of the game's current systems with my rework. I'd normally advise you against taking such a nakedly malevolent approach to posting on here, but if you feel like scoring some more own goals, please be my guest.

[Digressive]

As this thread has continued to devolve in arguing back and forth, I'm locking it.

Thanks