Slash status effect should no longer deal true damage

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, scam said:

It's not an issue of being able to kill enemies or not, it's an issue of what is good design and well balanced. Armour scaling is not balanced, it should not scale at all. Slash and toxin bypassing armour and shields works against the game's design and punish build diversity.

eh, the existence of the results gives more than one option to everything. otherwise, you'd have no real choices with Damage Types, any normal IPS Weapon would only have one way to be used against each Faction. leaving only certain Elemental Weapons that let you make nonstandard combinations to have any flexibility.
game has more than enough of that as it is, where some Enemies are immune to Game Mechanics.

 

and it IS about ability to Kill Enemies. the premise of this Thread is that relying on Slash Status inordinately more effective than anything else and if you don't use it you Kill Enemies slowly.
but that's most certainly not the case. i'm taking advantage of other Game Mechanics, while this Thread is suggesting that every Game Mechanic is nearly useless while Slash is the Key to the city.

[bnuy]

27 minutes ago, taiiat said:

eh, the existence of the results gives more than one option to everything. otherwise, you'd have no real choices with Damage Types, any normal IPS Weapon would only have one way to be used against each Faction. leaving only certain Elemental Weapons that let you make nonstandard combinations to have any flexibility.
game has more than enough of that as it is, where some Enemies are immune to Game Mechanics.

 

and it IS about ability to Kill Enemies. the premise of this Thread is that relying on Slash Status inordinately more effective than anything else and if you don't use it you Kill Enemies slowly.
but that's most certainly not the case. i'm taking advantage of other Game Mechanics, while this Thread is suggesting that every Game Mechanic is nearly useless while Slash is the Key to the city.

The other armour methods, like 100% strip from abilities, only exist as a result of how incredibly imbalanced armour scaling is. Without a way to strip 100% of armour or being able to make any weapon type deal slash procs, much like how Hunter Munitions allows crit based non slash biased or non status weapons to force slash, it's a band-aid fix to the issues the core systems presents. Every frame and their mother these days needs either a method to force 100% armour strip or deal slash procs, otherwise they can never compete against armoured enemies. Shield and health don't present this balance issue, hence why you don't see every frame being given a method to bypass shields, or a way to 100% strip shields, because it simply isn't an issue with shields or health. You should be able to mod a weapon to be effective against armour, without having to rely on poorly designed band-aid mods (Hunter Munitions, Internal Bleeding) or 100% armour strip from abilities.

You seem to think because DE gives us band-aid methods to deal with armour, that it ceases to be a balance issue. That's simply not true, and your perspective is flawed. Slash is without a doubt the most effective against armour, and toxin for shields. This is because of their bypassing nature, but toxin bypassing isn't as severe of an issue as slash, because shields don't multiply effective health by 10x or more, so even if you're not building specifically for shields you can brute force so long as you have an appropriate amount of damage. This is never an option against armour, unless you are basically reaching damage cap, and having to reach ridiculous numbers like that to be able to brute force armour is awful design.

With armour you must strip 100% of it or bypass it entirely with slash to be effective, no other methods work at higher levels. This doesn't stand true for hefty healthy/shielded enemies, because they aren't presenting the same balance issue armour currently does. If you can not do one of these methods you can't deal with armour, which is why they had to implement band-aid "fixes" that attempt to hide the core issue. Hunter Munitions was an answer to critical based weapons with low status not being able to compete against armour, so they gave critical weapons a way to force slash. They didn't need to do this for shields, or health, since they are designed well as opposed to armour.

[taiiat]

57 minutes ago, scam said:

Every frame and their mother these days needs either a method to force 100% armour strip or deal slash procs, otherwise they can never compete against armoured enemies.

incorrect.

i happen to weaken Armor, but only because of the raw Damage i'm adding, the Status Effect is of little significance to me and the main thing it offers me is a Condition Overload tick should i choose to sweep some trash with Melee so i can focus on farther away Enemies.
i don't do it from necessity of near removing or removing in order to Kill Enemies in anything but Endurance. now, in Endurance that can become an issue, but that's spending over atleast an Hour in any Endless Mission, probably over 90 Minutes. even then you could still do it other ways but people don't experiment with their options in this game.

[bnuy]

14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

incorrect.

i happen to weaken Armor, but only because of the raw Damage i'm adding, the Status Effect is of little significance to me and the main thing it offers me is a Condition Overload tick should i choose to sweep some trash with Melee so i can focus on farther away Enemies.
i don't do it from necessity of near removing or removing in order to Kill Enemies in anything but Endurance. now, in Endurance that can become an issue, but that's spending over atleast an Hour in any Endless Mission, probably over 90 Minutes. even then you could still do it other ways but people don't experiment with their options in this game.

Steel Path, your standard level 100 Elite Lancer (lowest spawn level fodder unit) has 95% or higher damage reduction from armour. You need to deal 20x more damage than they have health to kill then, which means slash procs since they ignore armour are now 20x more effective than any other damage type. Even with 90% armour strip from 10 stacks of corrosive + heat strip, you still need to deal 3x their health in damage to kill them.

Sortie, level 100 enemies, take a Heavy Gunner. This unit has more armour than a level 100 Steel Path basic unit, so even when it comes to Sorties which are commonly used as a benchmark, the same numbers as above apply. It takes over 20x the damage to kill without bypassing armour, and even once you strip the armour to the absolute cap that you can strip without external abilities, 90% from heat and corrosive, it still takes over 3x it's health in damage.

Not to mention the fact that since armour scales, you can not remove this balance discrepancy without making slash not bypass armour and removing armour scaling.

 If you fail the see the issue here I won't bother responding further.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, scam said:

Steel Path, your standard level 100 Elite Lancer (lowest spawn level fodder unit) has 95% or higher damage reduction from armour. You need to deal 20x more damage than they have health to kill then, which means slash procs since they ignore armour are now 20x more effective than any other damage type.

Sortie, level 100 enemies, take a Heavy Gunner. This unit has more armour than a level 100 Steel Path basic unit, so even when it comes to Sorties which are commonly used as a benchmark, the same numbers as above apply. It takes over 20x the damage to kill without bypassing armour

 If you fail the see the issue here I won't bother responding further.

the issue is a Thread saying that you can't Kill things without Slash Status. your case example Enemies, i would Kill in essentially just the same timeframe as i would a lowly Lv20. i pointed at it, i shot at it for half a Second or maybe a Second in a bad case, and it was dead. same whether lv20, lv50, lv100, lv150. either way dead in a Second or less and in the grand scheme dead is dead.

if people are unhappy with a particular feature, sure, Slash Status requires less effort or knowledge to Kill Enemies than the other options.
just don't pretend like there aren't other options that are also very effective. because that's disingenuous, and just wrong.

[bnuy]

22 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the issue is a Thread saying that you can't Kill things without Slash Status. your case example Enemies, i would Kill in essentially just the same timeframe as i would a lowly Lv20. i pointed at it, i shot at it for half a Second or maybe a Second in a bad case, and it was dead. same whether lv20, lv50, lv100, lv150. either way dead in a Second or less and in the grand scheme dead is dead.

if people are unhappy with a particular feature, sure, Slash Status requires less effort or knowledge to Kill Enemies than the other options.
just don't pretend like there aren't other options that are also very effective. because that's disingenuous, and just wrong.

This is just.... Okay I'm not going to bother even trying to explain any more because you clearly have an awful understanding of game design and balance.

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, scam said:

This is just.... Okay I'm not going to bother even trying to explain any more because you clearly have an awful understanding of game design and balance.

i've acknowledged numerous times that Slash Status requires less effort and understanding to get performance out of.
all i expect in return i acknowledging that in a game where we have huge Stats, Slash Status is far, far from required in order to Kill Enemies.

are you sure it's not you that just doesn't know as much about the game as you think you do.
attitude in, attitude out.

[bnuy]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i've acknowledged numerous times that Slash Status requires less effort and understanding to get performance out of.
all i expect in return i acknowledging that in a game where we have huge Stats, Slash Status is far, far from required in order to Kill Enemies.

are you sure it's not you that just doesn't know as much about the game as you think you do.
attitude in, attitude out.

I'm glad you implied I know nothing about the game, that challenge spurred me to actually record a clip demonstrating just how drastic the differences are. Once you watch this if you even attempt to claim what you did earlier, about builds that can't proc slash being viable against high level armoured units, well then you're quite literally delusional as the proof is right here.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, scam said:

if you even attempt to claim what you did earlier, about builds that can't proc slash being viable against high level armoured units

yeah okay you just confirmed it for me that you don't know as much as you think you know.
it's okay, i just wish information and the truth was always the goal.

i guess you've embarrassed yourself sufficiently now, cheers.

[bnuy]

36 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yeah okay you just confirmed it for me that you don't know as much as you think you know.
it's okay, i just wish information and the truth was always the goal.

i guess you've embarrassed yourself sufficiently now, cheers.

What about the video I showed is incorrect? Please do explain as you're just throwing around words with nothing backing them, and refusing all proof and explanations I show.

What makes my video here incorrect? A level 150 Napalm is roughly the same armour damage reduction value as a base fodder unit in Steel Path.

[CerealPlayer]

5 hours ago, scam said:

This is just.... Okay I'm not going to bother even trying to explain any more because you clearly have an awful understanding of game design and balance.

Please tell us about your vast game design experience upon which you’re basing your conclusions. It would help if you could mention at least one game you’ve designed. That way we can consider it’s similarities and differences to/from Warframe, and perhaps better understand where you’re coming from. 
 

Because at the moment you sound like an internet rando with no real understanding of what they’re talking about, with a severe case of Dunning-Kruger effect telling the WF devs who collectively have centuries of accumulated game development experience that they have no idea what they’re doing and that you know better. 

[bnuy]

8 minutes ago, CerealPlayer said:

Please tell us about your vast game design experience upon which you’re basing your conclusions. It would help if you could mention at least one game you’ve designed. That way we can consider it’s similarities and differences to/from Warframe, and perhaps better understand where you’re coming from. 
 

Because at the moment you sound like an internet rando with no real understanding of what they’re talking about, with a severe case of Dunning-Kruger effect telling the WF devs who collectively have centuries of accumulated game development experience that they have no idea what they’re doing and that you know better. 

The numbers and video speaks for itself. It's simple math, and also I showed a video that allows you to clearly see the difference between using slash for high level armoured units and non-slash builds. It's simple logic and math, if you can't wrap your head around that then I have no idea what to tell you. Just because DE are devs doesn't make them infallible, you don't need to run to their defense when I'm giving clear examples and proof of the balance issues.

Even after stripping 90% of an enemy's armour, it's over 3x quicker to kill them via slash procs, and these numbers inflate the higher the levels get. This means in any content above the levels of you one-shotting, slash will always outperform any other builds by multiple times.

If your only argument against my proof of the imbalanced state of Warframe is that I can't be correct because I'm not a professional game dev, and that DE can't be wrong because they are, well... Go develop your gray matter.

[CerealPlayer]

15 minutes ago, scam said:

The numbers and video speaks for itself. It's simple math, and also I showed a video that allows you to clearly see the difference between using slash for high level armoured units and non-slash builds. It's simple logic and math, if you can't wrap your head around that then I have no idea what to tell you. Just because DE are devs doesn't make them infallible, you don't need to run to their defense when I'm giving clear examples and proof of the balance issues.

Even after stripping 90% of an enemy's armour, it's over 3x quicker to kill them via slash procs, and these numbers inflate the higher the levels get. This means in any content above the levels of you one-shotting, slash will always outperform any other builds by multiple times.

If your only argument against my proof of the imbalanced state of Warframe is that I can't be correct because I'm not a professional game dev, and that DE can't be wrong because they are, well... Go develop your gray matter.

I'm not doubting your maths: I'm saying you cannot draw the conclusions you're drawing about WF having "bad design" from them. Allow me an allegory. Your complaint is similar to someone complaining that Chess is a badly designed game because the queen and the rook are clearly much more powerful than a pair of pawns. So what, we ask? You call us all fools for not being able to see what you've clearly proven. You show us that, mathematically, if white controls a queen and a rook, and black has only two pawns, black will lose the match in 99.999% of games. Yes, so?

Warframe is a complex game. Some player abilities scale, some do not. Of those that scale some scale linearly, others polynomially, and yet others exponentially. And if you don't have access to the wiki you may not know which ones do which. That's Warframe. If you don't like it, can I perhaps interest you in a game called checkers?

[bnuy]

36 minutes ago, CerealPlayer said:

I'm not doubting your maths: I'm saying you cannot draw the conclusions you're drawing about WF having "bad design" from them. Allow me an allegory. Your complaint is similar to someone complaining that Chess is a badly designed game because the queen and the rook are clearly much more powerful than a pair of pawns. So what, we ask? You call us all fools for not being able to see what you've clearly proven. You show us that, mathematically, if white controls a queen and a rook, and black has only two pawns, black will lose the match in 99.999% of games. Yes, so?

Warframe is a complex game. Some player abilities scale, some do not. Of those that scale some scale linearly, others polynomially, and yet others exponentially. And if you don't have access to the wiki you may not know which ones do which. That's Warframe. If you don't like it, can I perhaps interest you in a game called checkers?

Obviously not all of Warframe is poorly balanced. The issues I see with it's current balance are slash and toxin bypassing armour and shields, this is counter intuitive to the elemental weakness design we have, when slash is universally more effective than any other method to deal with armour, Alloy or Ferrite, then building for the specific weaknesses of the type is effectively punished as you can just use slash which works for all armour. The same goes for toxin bypassing shields, there is never any reason to consider building for shield weaknesses when you can universally bypass all shield types with toxin and have it be universally effective. It works against the design of enemies having elemental weaknesses.

Another issue is armour scaling, this means as levels get higher you're no longer able to "brute-force" armour, much like you can with shields just through having higher damage than necessary to kill the enemy with an optimal build. A level 100 Heavy Gunner, when using Corrosive damage, it's main weakness, it still requires a significantly higher amount of damage to kill than just using slash. The fact that armour scales means armour strip methods and brute-forcing with damage become less effective as levels scale, this only applies to armoured enemies. With shielded enemies the most effective build remains constant at all levels of play, you build for the enemy type and call it a day. With armoured units you can use corrosive or viral to brute-force low levels but as soon as armour picks up you absolutely must rely on slash procs or 100% armour strip, which is not solely achievable by weapons. Armour should be made to not scale, so that corrosive and radiation can compete against their respective armour types when compared to slash, if armour scales then this is not possible.

Also, enemies don't scale enough. DE relies instead on random obscure never explained damage reduction mechanics that they slap onto plenty of units these days to make them a "challenge", which is artificial difficulty. Shield and health scaling needs to be equalized, and armour should be made to not scale, this will reward building for enemy weaknesses as opposed to using a single blanket damage type for everything, which is stale and unrewarding.

It's impossible to balance the core systems of the game without changes like these, as any changes attempting to deal with these issues without directly addressing them are "band-aid" fixes that only exist to try and cover the problem up, not resolve it.

For reference, this is the entirety of what I believe should be changed about the core damage systems.

 

[Teridax68]

31 minutes ago, CerealPlayer said:

I'm not doubting your maths: I'm saying you cannot draw the conclusions you're drawing about WF having "bad design" from them. Allow me an allegory. Your complaint is similar to someone complaining that Chess is a badly designed game because the queen and the rook are clearly much more powerful than a pair of pawns. So what, we ask? You call us all fools for not being able to see what you've clearly proven. You show us that, mathematically, if white controls a queen and a rook, and black has only two pawns, black will lose the match in 99.999% of games. Yes, so?

The problem with that allegory is that in chess, players start out with the same pieces. The only time you choose which pieces you have are when you let your pieces get captured, or when you take a pawn to the other side of the board. If players were given the option to choose the pieces with which they'd start the game, and could choose from all pieces equally, it is likely most players would just fill their side with queens, and no pawns. At that point, that version of "chess" would absolutely be poorly-balanced, plus far more repetitive and less deep to boot.

If we are to carry this allegory to Warframe, the parallels should be clear: our mods and arsenal give us the option to choose which damage types to bring to our missions, and so more or less equally. Given the option between Slash and any other physical damage type, there is no real reason not to pick Slash, just as there are only few reasons out there for picking any element other than Heat and Viral. Slash being so overwhelmingly strong compared to Impact and Puncture thereby harms the balance of the game, and reduces both the amount of meaningful choices we can make and the variety of gameplay that flows from those choices. Addressing Slash does not require making everything in the game the same, but it does imply at least trying to scale different competing benefits down to the same overall power level.

[Uhkretor]

... I'm just going to throw it out there that using Corrosive against Alloy Armor was never a thing...

Spoiler

... Know thy enemy...

[bnuy]

Just now, Uhkretor said:

... I'm just going to throw it out there that using Corrosive against Alloy Armor was never a thing...

  Reveal hidden contents

... Know thy enemy...

Why are corrosive and viral builds both killing Alloy armoured enemies faster than their weakness of radiation? Is this not bad design in your opinion?

[Uhkretor]

4 minutes ago, scam said:

Is this not bad design in your opinion?

... Only my weapons have an opinion on the matter and their opinion is that they can double tap Steel Path Grineer heavy units on Kuva Fortress missions... With Radiation so~... I don't know, I'll just let them keep talking while I watch in the sidelines and eating popcorn...

[bnuy]

36 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... Only my weapons have an opinion on the matter and their opinion is that they can double tap Steel Path Grineer heavy units on Kuva Fortress missions... With Radiation so~... I don't know, I'll just let them keep talking while I watch in the sidelines and eating popcorn...

Here is an example comparing a few extra builds. You can clearly see nothing can compete with slash builds. Viral heat comes sort of close, due to the ridiculously overpowered nature of viral procs, but the differences become even more drastic as levels continue to scale, and slash pulls ahead much further.

Just because you can easily dispatch enemies, doesn't mean it's not inherently imbalanced. I can kill enemies up to level 9,999 without any issue, there are dozens of methods to achieve this sort of power, but this power discrepancy between damage types is abhorrent from a balance/design perspective.

Note: Even with radiation damage ignoring 75% of Alloy armour, a level 100 Steel Path heavy unit requires 13.5x more damage to kill than they have health.
Level 100, which is the absolute lowest possible level in Steel Path, a Kuva Napalm has ~16,000 armour, which results in 98% damage reduction. When accounting for radiation ignoring 75% of that it still has 93% damage reduction, which as I said means it requires 13.5x more damage than it has health.
So it requires over 2,100,000 damage to kill, yet with slash procs less than 160,000.

[Uhkretor]

2 minutes ago, scam said:

You can clearly see nothing can compete with slash builds.

... I'm going to quote myself to see if you really understood what I said before...

16 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... Only my weapons have an opinion on the matter and their opinion is that they can double tap Steel Path Grineer heavy units on Kuva Fortress missions... With Radiation so~... I don't know, I'll just let them keep talking while I watch in the sidelines and eating popcorn...

21 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I'm just going to throw it out there that using Corrosive against Alloy Armor was never a thing...

  Reveal hidden contents

... Know thy enemy...

Tell me if there anything there mentioning that bleeding builds can be competed with?

Spoiler

Slash builds aren't even a thing, since bleeding damage variations are only affected by your critical damage, not mods. Slash mods are only used to increase chances of having a Bleeding Status Change on enemies, and Bleeding Builds are only referred as "Slash Builds" for easier understanding.

... As I've said before, if I wasn't clear enough...

16 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... Only my weapons have an opinion on the matter and their opinion is that they can double tap Steel Path Grineer heavy units on Kuva Fortress missions... With Radiation so~... I don't know, I'll just let them keep talking while I watch in the sidelines and eating popcorn...

Thanks in advance for understanding.

Now, I'm going back to talk with the Grineer about this subject and see if they have arguments to prove my weapons wrong.

[Teridax68]

7 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Tell me if there anything there mentioning that bleeding builds can be competed with?

Quick question: why are you going on a thread that discusses the power of Slash to talk about anything but Slash? If you agree that Slash builds outdamage competitors, what even is the argument you want to have here, besides trying to play gotcha with people over not having discussed Slash on the Slash thread?

[Uhkretor]

Quick answer:

52 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I'm just going to throw it out there that using Corrosive against Alloy Armor was never a thing...

  Reveal hidden contents

... Know thy enemy...

Its others that are trying to do stuff that shouldn't be done, when the only thing I've done was to state an Alloy Armor vulnerability to Radiation vs Alloy Armor resistances vs Corrosive curiosity for players that are wondering why they're doing crap damage with Corrosive vs Grineers on Steel Path, despite the armor stripping capability it offers, and have no capability to apply significant Bleeding DoT.

While there are many weapons that offer significant Bleeding DoT potential, some people actually prefer Impact based, or Puncture based, weaponry... Preference is also a thing, despite efforts for otherwise... They can take my statement as an alternative to what they have, or refine it if they already suspected it and are starting to use it.

[bnuy]

6 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Quick answer:

Its others that are trying to do stuff that shouldn't be done, when the only thing I've done was to state an Alloy Armor vulnerability to Radiation vs Alloy Armor resistances vs Corrosive curiosity for players that are wondering why they're doing crap damage with Corrosive vs Grineers on Steel Path, despite the armor stripping capability it offers, and have no capability to apply significant Bleeding DoT.

While there are many weapons that offer significant Bleeding DoT potential, some people actually prefer Impact based, or Puncture based, weaponry... Preference is also a thing, despite efforts for otherwise... They can take my statement as an alternative to what they have, or refine it if they already suspected it and are starting to use it.

Despite all of that, as you can see by my video, radiation which should be the strongest against Alloy actually kills the slowest, even when compared to corrosive which is tuned mainly for Ferrite. There is never any reason to attempt using anything outside of slash for high level armoured units because of the way armour scaling works, that is unless you can strip 100% of their armour.

[Uhkretor]

3 minutes ago, scam said:

Despite all of that, as you can see by my video, radiation which should be the strongest against Alloy actually kills the slowest, even when compared to corrosive which is tuned mainly for Ferrite. There is never any reason to attempt using anything outside of slash for high level armoured units because of the way armour scaling works, that is unless you can strip 100% of their armour.

... The thread is about Slash and the associated Bleeding damage, right...? I believe I already stated what I needed literally in the same post you quoted...

Relative to off-topic damage types, its like I said before...

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

... Only my weapons have an opinion on the matter and their opinion is that they can double tap Steel Path Grineer heavy units on Kuva Fortress missions... With Radiation so~... I don't know, I'll just let them keep talking while I watch in the sidelines and eating popcorn...

42 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Now, I'm going back to talk with the Grineer about this subject and see if they have arguments to prove my weapons wrong.

... That is... if I don't get interrupted any further. It makes conversations with Grineer take a lot longer than necessary every time I get interrupted... Bye.

[bnuy]

16 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... The thread is about Slash and the associated Bleeding damage, right...? I believe I already stated what I needed literally in the same post you quoted...

Relative to off-topic damage types, its like I said before...

... That is... if I don't get interrupted any further. It makes conversations with Grineer take a lot longer than necessary every time I get interrupted... Bye.

You clearly missed my earlier point. A level 100 Steel Path Napalm has 2,100,000 effective health, it has alloy which means it takes 75% bonus damage from radiation, so unless you're casually doing 1,200,000 radiation damage per hit to an alloy armoured unit you are not going to be one-shotting them. Or in your case two shotting, so supposedly you're hitting for at least 600,000 radiation damage per hit. If you're not dealing entirely radiation damage then you require a significantly higher damage value to kill, also for any Ferrite armoured units the radiation will be ineffective and require upwards of 4,250,000 damage.

That is to say, your claims about two tapping or one shotting them or whatever with radiation damage is not true, unless you can prove me otherwise and show me you dealing this amount of damage.