Hek, The Dethroned King.

[Phoenix86]

Just wait for the Hek Wraith and brace yourself...

[Naftal]

Does the damage/armor 2.0 change stats of weapons? If not, how do you think Hek will suddenly become on par with Strun Wraith?

[Aggh]

Does the damage/armor 2.0 change stats of weapons? If not, how do you think Hek will suddenly become on par with Strun Wraith?

The spreadsheet on armor 2.0 mentioned different physical damage types to differentiate between weapons despite similar damage stats.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Aggh

[.solitus]

We can wait for Hek Wraith

[Aggh]

Thing is, it shouldn't be powerful. That's the whole problem with the mentality of the playerbase nowadays.

 

New weapons shouldn't replace or invalidate older ones.

Limited availability(event) items shouldn't invalidate their common counterparts.

Warframe's power progression used to be and should be based on the mod system, not the mastery one.

 

It's this stupid notion that stronger guns will somehow make the game better, or that they have to be better for anyone to buy them, that has lead to the rampant power creep within the game.

Meh, powercreep is inevitable.  Trying to avoid it is like trying to make sidegrades.  There will always be a superior choice of what to use.

 

 

The falloff should be removed from shotguns, and shotgun mods should be buffed.

Shotguns were given more damage falloff quite a while ago because they were too OP.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Aggh

[Naqel]

Meh, powercreep is inevitable.  Trying to avoid it is like trying to make sidegrades.  There will always be a superior choice of what to use.

 

Largely irrelevant to my point about event items.

 

Also: false. You can remove power creep by simply ceasing to introduce gameplay alterating content. Skins don't exactly contribute to power creep.

 

Also, also: true. But if that superior choice is superior by a small margin, like 5% or 10%, it's a lot less of an issue than it being 20-50%. Then there's playstyles and trade-offs to take into consideration.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Naqel

[Aggh]

Largely irrelevant to my point about event items.

 

Also: false. You can remove power creep by simply ceasing to introduce gameplay alterating content. Skins don't exactly contribute to power creep.

 

Also, also: true. But if that superior choice is superior by a small margin, like 5% or 10%, it's a lot less of an issue than it being 20-50%. Then there's playstyles and trade-offs to take into consideration.

Not really; powerful event items are a part of power creep.

 

Lol.  As if a f2p shooter can survive without introducing new weapons (and consequently power creep).

 

All a moot point since players will always find a way to make minor differences into major ones.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Aggh

[SquirmyBurrito]

Thing is, it shouldn't be powerful. That's the whole problem with the mentality of the playerbase nowadays.

 

New weapons shouldn't replace or invalidate older ones.

Limited availability(event) items shouldn't invalidate their common counterparts.

Warframe's power progression used to be and should be based on the mod system, not the mastery one.

 

It's this stupid notion that stronger guns will somehow make the game better, or that they have to be better for anyone to buy them, that has lead to the rampant power creep within the game.

 

If DE introduces a new gun that is terrible, it get's treated like the Obex. Everyone stares at it trying to figure out why it was introduced into the game, expecting to stumble upon some feature that makes it good.

Why shouldn't they? If they aren't better than their common counterpart what was the point in doing all that work (whatever the event is) for a weapon that isn't good enough to warrant a place in your inventory.

 

Used to is key. Now they're focusing on a tier'd weapon system.

 

Stronger guns can be a key into harder content, DE just has to take advantage of that. And if they aren't better most of the players past that weapon's tier will simply level it to 30 and trash it.

[taiiat]

Lol.  As if a f2p shooter can survive without introducing new weapons (and consequently power creep).

Lol. as if a F2P shooter can survive WITH introducing new OverPowered content.

 

there are countless games in the past that have died because of this exact issue. not learning from that, is the definition of Insanity. 

there are many avenues without making shiny diamonds(Power Creep) to continue the longevity of a game. they're all just a little bit more time consuming than shiny diamonds. but we've seen shiny diamonds doesn't work, so. 

Meh, powercreep is inevitable.  Trying to avoid it is like trying to make sidegrades.  There will always be a superior choice of what to use.

there's always a superior choice for those that min/max DPS, but that stat is the more irrelevant thing in Warframe, so if a weapon has 5% more DPS, but everything is in balance, who cares. let them use their 'statistically superior' weapon, that really isn't. because it would need to be sacrificing other things for that  single statistic to be the highest. 

 

it's not the dedicated players to a game which will stick around with their wallets for a long time which want a circle of dumb(introduce broken weapons, players complain game is too easy, change up the enemies to balance, players complain game is too hard, introduce new weapons....) - it's the ones that get bored in 10 minutes if they don't have a new shiny to chase. shiny chasers don't spend money. because they find everything boring. including that new shiny they got 10 minutes ago. 

[Aggh]

Lol. as if a F2P shooter can survive WITH introducing new OverPowered content.

 

there are countless games in the past that have died because of this exact issue. not learning from that, is the definition of Insanity. 

there are many avenues without making shiny diamonds(Power Creep) to continue the longevity of a game. they're all just a little bit more time consuming than shiny diamonds. but we've seen shiny diamonds doesn't work, so. 

there's always a superior choice for those that min/max DPS, but that stat is the more irrelevant thing in Warframe, so if a weapon has 5% more DPS, but everything is in balance, who cares. let them use their 'statistically superior' weapon, that really isn't. because it would need to be sacrificing other things for that  single statistic to be the highest. 

 

it's not the dedicated players to a game which will stick around with their wallets for a long time which want a circle of dumb(introduce broken weapons, players complain game is too easy, change up the enemies to balance, players complain game is too hard, introduce new weapons....) - it's the ones that get bored in 10 minutes if they don't have a new shiny to chase. shiny chasers don't spend money. because they find everything boring. including that new shiny they got 10 minutes ago. 

Actually, OP content has been showed to actually increase sales (example: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win).    It's a very common tactic for f2p companies to release a weapon/character/etc. etc. and not properly balance it until after they've made a boat load of cash on it.

 

Saying that it has 5% dps and is balanced is a very subjective evaluation of an item's performance and a poor example.  Small differences like that also make weapon variety harder to achieve.

 

Dedicated players make a much smaller part of the total revenue in f2p games than they like to think.  Think of it like the income tax, where the bulk of the revenue doesn't come from the extremely wealthy, but rather the millions of other people paying their taxes.  F2p games make the bulk of their money on small impulse purchases.

[TheThreadWeaver]

I want to like the Hek. I really do.

 

But in later areas it's just so... Meh.

 

I support the idea to make its reload a shell-by-shell affair, to help cut down on the reload time. Really crippling for a weapon that typically has to unload its whole clip to down an enemy later.

[Laecerelius]

If the Strun Wraith is this good, just imagine how ridiculous the Hek Wraith will be or the Sobek Wraith.  I'm still waiting for the Tenno shotty to show up and make me regret putting a forma into my Strun Wraith and then the Corpus flak cannon to show up and make me regret probably putting a forma into that one as well.

[_ThePro_]

pfth, please, hek is so update 7, get a weapon luzer lol yoloswag

[Cwierz]

If the Strun Wraith is this good, just imagine how ridiculous the Hek Wraith will be or the Sobek Wraith.  I'm still waiting for the Tenno shotty to show up and make me regret putting a forma into my Strun Wraith and then the Corpus flak cannon to show up and make me regret probably putting a forma into that one as well.

So true, lol

[taiiat]

Actually, OP content has been showed to actually increase sales (example: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win).    It's a very common tactic for f2p companies to release a weapon/character/etc. etc. and not properly balance it until after they've made a boat load of cash on it.

increases sales, yet the game still dies off quickly. nobody is left after people start to get bored of the same cycle, and more dedicated players also eventually leave, due to lack of players. 

short term positives rarely result in long term positives.

 

also, a portion (of some size) of that examples' revenue increases wasn't due to adding pay to win guns, making the game more convenient to purchase for so more users could buy whatever it was they were interested in, certainly made a big difference. if all that happened was adding the new guns, and nothing else had happened, the game would of had to rely on the currently willing to pay users, to hoof the revenue increase. notice the segment where the European countries were away from home? well there was a large drop in players. so if a large amount of the players could not spend money, well, then a large amount of the revenue increase, wouldn't have happened. 

 

Warframe is already superior to that business model in most aspects, with a good portion (though should be a larger portion IMO, lookin' at you Alert only useless melee's) of the content available in the game, can be obtained by all players, paying or not. 

that being the case, what's left is to ensure all equipment is within reason for the game, and is fair for the free player to get within reasonable time, to entice them to buy it, but ultimately, not forcing them to. 

 

Warframe part drops is a nice example here. before, getting parts to drop was a real pain for some users. alright, understandable, the system was flawed.

now, Tenno can expect to be able to build a Warframe in like, 5 runs of a mission. good luck getting anyone to ever buy a Warframe again then, if they know ~30 minutes of time (a few days of constructing time isn't a major deal for most players) means they can get it for free. 

in other words, the Warframe parts is actually too easy, and doesn't entice players to pay for it enough. 

 

and, Warframe has problems with balance though, not Pay to Win really.

flavor of the month is great and all, but burst income doesn't correlate with long term revenue. 

Dedicated players make a much smaller part of the total revenue in f2p games than they like to think.  Think of it like the income tax, where the bulk of the revenue doesn't come from the extremely wealthy, but rather the millions of other people paying their taxes.  F2p games make the bulk of their money on small impulse purchases.

i'd wager a large majority of all players, long term or not, makes small impulse purchases. hell, i don't but Platinum thousands at a time just because i can, if there's something i can snag, or if recent events tempt me to do so, then i do. but even dedicated players aren't signing up their monthly subscription. 

honestly, if a game is to really flourish, it must remember that the player that plays for two weeks, spends nothing or maybe 5-10 bucks, and leaves, while still valued, isn't helping to keep the game alive like someone that's sticking around is. 

as much as all customers are important, making content specifically for players that will leave quickly, results in it being a waste of effort, and like we've seen with Warframe, and many games in the past, negatively affects the health of the game, which loses more of the attached community, who keeps the game interesting for any prospective players. a Multiplayer game without any players, quickly gets boring. 

 

 

edit:

damn, we're quite off topic.

Edited November 12, 2013 by taiiat

[Naqel]

Lol.  As if a f2p shooter can survive without introducing new weapons (and consequently power creep).

 

F2P shooters sure as hell get along better financially when they introduce cash only cosmetic content instead of upseting the balance(and consequently the playerbase), most of the highly regarded ones only introduce new weapons more than three months apart, giving them the time to release something balanced, and then the time to nerf it back in line it it's OP.

 

Warframe may be spoiling its playerbase, but it dose so largely to it's own demise.

It's our duty as responsible consumers not only to expect what's good for us, but also what's good for the product, and what'd be good for warframe right now is to slow down the weapon releases, squash the power creep, and refine the gameplay and it's mechanics in preparation for going live.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Naqel

[Destro6677]

nope. there's no reason why an exclusive weapon needs to blow every other weapon out of the water. a difference between Braton and Braton Prime, is plenty for an exclusive weapon. a slight increase, to make it favorable for those that have it. that's all an exclusive reward 'needs'. honestly, it only needs to have identical stats to it's original counterpart, there's no need for it to be superior.

 

Tenno only want every new thing to be superior because they want the game to be super easy. then complain it's super easy. then complain enemies got more difficult to combat all the new stuff making the game super easy. then complain they need new stuff to make the game super easy.

 

see the circle of dumb? i do. nothing changes, it just goes in circles, and wastes immense amounts of Development Time. and everyone hates every stage of that circle, so it's best to just not have the circle. 

 

on topic:

increasing the shells Hek can hold would make no sense. 4 tubes, 4 shells. that makes sense. 

honestly, Hek should reload quickly, but reload shell by shell. so you can quickly keep moving shells through the gun and hitting enemies, but a few seconds of down time would give you the opportunity to reload all 4 tubes for more effective burst damage. 

I would also suggest an alt-fire mode that unloads all 4 tubes at once for massive damage. 

[taiiat]

I would also suggest an alt-fire mode that unloads all 4 tubes at once for massive damage. 

that sounds cool. but uhm. the Tenno Dual Barrel Shotgun coming up soon would be worthless then :D

 

haha. 

[Brimir]

The only saving grace for both Hek and Sobek atm is that

 

a. Infested Runners don't explode on death

b. Perma-stuns Infested Ancients

 

Other than that... hmm... looks? I definitely perfer them both, appearance-wise, over Strun Wraith. The colours are ugly and the Strun model looks silly by default.

[modded]

nope. there's no reason why an exclusive weapon needs to blow every other weapon out of the water. a difference between Braton and Braton Prime, is plenty for an exclusive weapon. a slight increase, to make it favorable for those that have it. that's all an exclusive reward 'needs'. honestly, it only needs to have identical stats to it's original counterpart, there's no need for it to be superior.

 

Tenno only want every new thing to be superior because they want the game to be super easy. then complain it's super easy. then complain enemies got more difficult to combat all the new stuff making the game super easy. then complain they need new stuff to make the game super easy.

 

see the circle of dumb? i do. nothing changes, it just goes in circles, and wastes immense amounts of Development Time. and everyone hates every stage of that circle, so it's best to just not have the circle. 

 

on topic:

increasing the shells Hek can hold would make no sense. 4 tubes, 4 shells. that makes sense. 

honestly, Hek should reload quickly, but reload shell by shell. so you can quickly keep moving shells through the gun and hitting enemies, but a few seconds of down time would give you the opportunity to reload all 4 tubes for more effective burst damage. 

You must be new here. The Braton Vandal used to be better than the Braton, but then they buffed the Braton and forgot about the Braton Vandal.

 

And what you're describing is typical of RPG style games. Just saying. :/

[taiiat]

hey now, sobek can be effective at ranges SWraith can only dream of.

 

And what you're describing is typical of RPG style games. Just saying. :/

typical does not mean correct.

 

also, hovering on peoples' names shows quick info, like account age. 

(my account is 9 days older than yours).

just sayin'.

 

i've seen almost everything. Braton Vandal needs to be rebalanced again, yes. since it's not really 'useful' compared to the Braton.

honestly, Brandal should have a 10% Crit Chance. make it cool, yo. an automatic weapon that has decent Crits? that's still relatively uncovered material. 

i like that it's more of a marksman weapon than Braton, but just that doesn't set it apart from the original model. 

Edited November 12, 2013 by taiiat

[Brimir]

hey now, sobek can be effective at ranges SWraith can only dream of.

 

Debatable. The Strun Wraith has so much raw damage it really doesn't matter if all pellets hit, lol.

[SquirmyBurrito]

This thread made me want to use my Strun Wraith again, but sweeper is hogging all the mods.

[N7Arthur]

This thread made me want to use my Strun Wraith again, but sweeper is hogging all the mods.

Got maxed mods for both my Sweeper and Strun Wraith, add a Brakk and you can go as an insane close range murder machine.

[NalkorRN]

Shotgun? Long range? Yeah let's just throw out every sniper weapon. Who needs specialization. Let's just have one weapon that does it all.

Like my LEX? Mmm, I love me that super-high damage coupled with Pistol mods and a 36% crit chance when modded.