Editted: Eximus enemies feel kinda good

[Silligoose]

@(PSN)Frost_Nephilim

I'm happy you enjoyed the experience and I would love to see that type of action be needed at lategame+ into endgame (it's why I've created threads suggesting nerfs), but not by simply invalidating a very important foundational mechanic in Warframe. As such, I don't see Overguard as a good mechanic.

DE identified cc is a problem. This was their opportunity to do something good. Something great even: Introduce mechanics to balance cc. Instead, DE went with what seems to be the easiest way to "address" this": Ignore it. Literally, some enemies just ignore it. In the wake of that decision, they nerfed frames more reliant on cc for survivability and damage, which pushes players into brute forcing even more (durability and damage builds, which includes shield gating/rolling guard/protective dash), which was already the meta.

What's next? "Oh, invisibility is overpowered, let's balance it by making just allowing Overguard enemies to pretend invisible frames aren't invisible". Would it result in more action as you experienced? Yes, but at the cost of another distinguished mechanic. After that? "Some frames just do too much damage. Instead of balancing that, Overguard will just ignore those bonusses. Early lunch for balance team.".

When a balance team can't balance foundational mechanics such as cc, damage, invisibility etc without simply making it completely ineffective, I don't see it as worthy of praise. They need to really sit and work on how to address imbalances. Simply ignoring it isn't going to make the imbalances go away and to be honest, it moves the game away from the tactical and strategical depth it should by all rights have at endgame.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

In the wake of that decision, they nerfed frames more reliant on cc for survivability and damage, which pushes players into brute forcing even more (durability and damage builds, which includes shield gating/rolling guard/protective dash), which was already the meta.

I played frost in void sp survival without any survival mods. Was extremely squishy. Only damage came from weapons. You dont need the survival mods too much because the enemies stay base level. You may need something like a operater void dash here and there tho. Strategy, tactic

And since overguard enemies dont scale, whatever weapon build you played sp with before overguard, should still work. You dont need ability buffs to get your gun to take down a level 100 enemy, even for the weaker weapons

12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Oh, invisibility is overpowered, let's balance it by making just allowing Overguard enemies to pretend invisible frames aren't invisible"

Meanwhile im sitting here like "write that down WRITE THAT DOWN!" Because youd have to be a 2 year old to think being invisible 24/7 its not game breakingly overpowered and somehow still allows challenge in the game. Or talking out your bum just for the sake of an argument

That actually sounds good, like if you get too close to an overguard enemy theyll be able to see you and try to coat you with something to make you visible, unless you dodge it

Same to players dealing a lot of damage with nukes or who are absurdly tanky. You cant have challenge in a game where enemies cant do anything.

12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

it's why I've created threads suggesting nerfs

Yeah id need to check it out. Nerfs are okay but i think some change the style of the game too much. Some people love being able to spam powerful abilities in warframe, and occasionally i do too, but having challenge with that? The only way you can add challenge is to either nerf the spam, or nerf the impact of the ability, both kinda suck and you know people will cry over it just as much as they do with overguard.

The overguard, as i said above with frost, i have to freeze (CC) enemies with 1 hand and shoot my gun with the other, as opposed to just freeze them all and relaxingly break all the statues the whole game. 

12 hours ago, Silligoose said:

When a balance team can't balance foundational mechanics such as cc, damage, invisibility etc without simply making it completely ineffective, I don't see it as worthy of praise. They need to really sit and work on how to address imbalances. Simply ignoring it isn't going to make the imbalances go away and to be honest, it moves the game away from the tactical and strategical depth it should by all rights have at endgame.

Yes and no. I dont think theres any game in existence that has overpowered spammable abilities in the game, but done in a way that keeps enemies challenging, without some enemies having a form of immunity to it. Not a single game. Some games go further than not letting your ability work on the enemy, theyll make you also TAKE DAMAGE from using it.

Like it or not, the only way challenge will ever exist in any game, is either through 1 of 3 things

1.) Cooldowns (or a measure that ensures your abilities arent always ready)

You get to have flashy cool abilities that are really impactful to gameplay, but you cant use it all the time

2.) Counters (Overguard is a form of counter)

You get to have flashy abilities that are also spammable! But you have to make sure youre using it on the right enemy

Games like Spiderman miles morales and Devil May Cry use it

3.) Weak abilities

Abilities that dont impact gameplay a lot. They do small things like allow you to instantly reload. 

 

#1 most people seem not to want in warframe. We used to have it but people seemed to find energy being more fun

#3 could work but the amount of nerfs and changes we would need? "Warframe wouldnt be warframe anymore" is the argument im usually met with when suggesting nerfs, it would be more like the game Outsiders. Whats worse is how long that would take. 1 warframe rework be taking months to a whole year, and near all of them would need it, because even hydroid would become a huge problem after you nerf every other frame. He can remove all challenge too, just need to like being a puddle and spamming his 1st ability

#2 leaves the game how it is for the most part. Still spam, still be op, still can never die, but now you have to use other abilities here and there to take out enemies. In overguard enemies case you need basic attacks to get them out the way. Both a strong or weak weapon can make quick work of them.

 

 

I think DE certainly made mistakes with balancing for challenge but it was done in the process of trying to find a unique and fun identity. It transitioned from #1 that didnt work well as people seemed to have more fun with energy (ask Lavos, players still want energy orbs affecting him in some way), then #3 that worked but seemed not to be as fun as having impactful abilities, and is slowly moving towards #2 which isnt bad gameplay, its just a type. Still can survive, you just cant be as braindead anymore

I think what we mistake for laziness and DE ignoring us, is really just DE trying to figure out identity the game should have, without crushing everyones desire for what they want the game to be, and its like walking on egg shells for them. Cause while we all yell "balance the game!!!" Each time they actually do it, a lot of people are still there like "nooo i cant be overpowered anymore", and its an endless cycle

Remember Chroma's nerf? And then talk of a Saryn nerf? 

 

Theyre trying to please everybody. An impossible task without craking some of the egg shells, yet doing what id argue is the best they can, while under a time limit. 

[Silligoose]

On 2022-07-17 at 4:40 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I played frost in void sp survival without any survival mods. Was extremely squishy. Only damage came from weapons. You dont need the survival mods too much because the enemies stay base level. You may need something like a operater void dash here and there tho. Strategy, tactic

And since overguard enemies dont scale, whatever weapon build you played sp with before overguard, should still work. You dont need ability buffs to get your gun to take down a level 100 enemy, even for the weaker weapons

You mentioned no Health or Shield mods, but no survival mods? No Rolling Guard, Brief Respite, Quick Thinking, Augur mods etc? What about Focus School? Vazarin? Unairu? I suppose truly having no survival mods is possible if one is willing to recover from the downed state via Last Gasp often, or simply to spam Protective Dash.

I'm not sure where the notion of Overguard enemies not scaling comes from: Those enemies scale along with other enemies in a level and Overguard scales with level, although independently of the enemy (sometimes it doesn't feel that way though lol).

On 2022-07-17 at 4:40 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Meanwhile im sitting here like "write that down WRITE THAT DOWN!" Because youd have to be a 2 year old to think being invisible 24/7 its not game breakingly overpowered and somehow still allows challenge in the game. Or talking out your bum just for the sake of an argument

That actually sounds good, like if you get too close to an overguard enemy theyll be able to see you and try to coat you with something to make you visible, unless you dodge it

Same to players dealing a lot of damage with nukes or who are absurdly tanky. You cant have challenge in a game where enemies cant do anything.

Oh invisibility is 100% gamebreaking and not only do I think it should be addressed (I've made suggestions on methods to nerf in other threads, actually with the same kind of thinking as you did here 🙂), I'm confident invisibility will be addressed, but I really am concerned DE will take the easy route and simply say "Well let's make Overguard immune to invisibility" - that would be akin to a 2-year old's solution in my opinion.

It seems you immediately went two steps further than that: First, you set parameters in terms of range, meaning the effectiveness of invisibility is in the player's hands, allowing a form of counterplay with distance management. You also suggest a mechanic that can result in greater engagement and counterplay (the enemy trying to mark the invisible frame, allowing other enemies to also see said frame, which can be dodged). That's two forms of counterplay you've slapped in there, which increases engagement, places higher value on player skill (positioning, situational awareness and reactions), while also nerfing invisibility, but still ensuring invisibility retains value and how long did you mull over that? Not long. I'd expect people who address balance professionally, who get paid to mull over these types of things, to go beyond the easy way, as you did here and to go even a bit further, by venturing into indirect nerfs or tweaking mechanics affiliated with the effectiveness of invisibility. 

As for damage numbers and durability numbers - I agree, again. Their upper levels of performance are simply far too high and as a result, enemies are not really a threat. The discrepancy in performance due to not only numbers, but scaling mechanics, also need to be addressed, along with the relative durability numbers of enemies and the mechanics on which that durability relies.

On 2022-07-17 at 4:40 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Yes and no. I dont think theres any game in existence that has overpowered spammable abilities in the game, but done in a way that keeps enemies challenging, without some enemies having a form of immunity to it. Not a single game. Some games go further than not letting your ability work on the enemy, theyll make you also TAKE DAMAGE from using it.

Like it or not, the only way challenge will ever exist in any game, is either through 1 of 3 things

1.) Cooldowns (or a measure that ensures your abilities arent always ready)

You get to have flashy cool abilities that are really impactful to gameplay, but you cant use it all the time

2.) Counters (Overguard is a form of counter)

You get to have flashy abilities that are also spammable! But you have to make sure youre using it on the right enemy

Games like Spiderman miles morales and Devil May Cry use it

3.) Weak abilities

Abilities that dont impact gameplay a lot. They do small things like allow you to instantly reload. 

 

#1 most people seem not to want in warframe. We used to have it but people seemed to find energy being more fun

#3 could work but the amount of nerfs and changes we would need? "Warframe wouldnt be warframe anymore" is the argument im usually met with when suggesting nerfs, it would be more like the game Outsiders. Whats worse is how long that would take. 1 warframe rework be taking months to a whole year, and near all of them would need it, because even hydroid would become a huge problem after you nerf every other frame. He can remove all challenge too, just need to like being a puddle and spamming his 1st ability

#2 leaves the game how it is for the most part. Still spam, still be op, still can never die, but now you have to use other abilities here and there to take out enemies. In overguard enemies case you need basic attacks to get them out the way. Both a strong or weak weapon can make quick work of them.

I'd say I agree with the premise here.

In order for a game to present engaging content in the form of a challenge by way of enemies, enemies need to be able to challenge the upper limits of performance. Currently, that isn't really possible in Warframe, as some of the upper limits exist far beyond what is required for a prolonged time (damage far exceeds the need thereof in encouraged content), some upper levels of performance have no limits for a prolonged period of time (durability can be infinite, for an infinite amount of time) or switch off enemies for prolonged times (cc, invisibility) AND all these upper limits of performance can all be accessed at the same time.

If I recall correctly Diablo 3 used to have spammable, overpowered abilities that enemies weren't immune to. I haven't played that in a long time though, so I'm not sure if that is still the case. Blizzard dealt with it by way of enemy scaling and enemy resistances... actual resistances... not straight up immunity under the guise of being called a "resistance", but also made sure players didn't have access to options that have many multiple layers of insurmountable upper levels of performance that couldn't be challenged by enemies. 

As you point out, there are methods in dealing with overpowered options. They can address the upper limits of performance, the duration of performing at that level, and/or the amount of times one could perform said action. 

You just made use of two of those three methods in addressing invisibility: You both introduced a counter and weakened invisibility, by decreasing the upper level of performance. 

On 2022-07-17 at 4:40 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I think DE certainly made mistakes with balancing for challenge but it was done in the process of trying to find a unique and fun identity. It transitioned from #1 that didnt work well as people seemed to have more fun with energy (ask Lavos, players still want energy orbs affecting him in some way), then #3 that worked but seemed not to be as fun as having impactful abilities, and is slowly moving towards #2 which isnt bad gameplay, its just a type. Still can survive, you just cant be as braindead anymore

I think what we mistake for laziness and DE ignoring us, is really just DE trying to figure out identity the game should have, without crushing everyones desire for what they want the game to be, and its like walking on egg shells for them. Cause while we all yell "balance the game!!!" Each time they actually do it, a lot of people are still there like "nooo i cant be overpowered anymore", and its an endless cycle

Remember Chroma's nerf? And then talk of a Saryn nerf? 

 

Theyre trying to please everybody. An impossible task without craking some of the egg shells, yet doing what id argue is the best they can, while under a time limit. 

Though there is scope for some minor adjustments, I wouldn't tinker with cooldowns too much. That means we'd need to look at counters and decreasing the upper limits of performance, which goes hand in hand.

Would it take some work? Sure. The amount of changes needed would be more than a simple immunity mechanic, but the payoff is not sacrificing the diversity of the game to the extent it is now. The payoff is ensuring lategame and endgame tactical and strategical depth doesn't become a shadow of its former self compared to earlier stages of progression, The payoff is being able to introduce content without having to waste time on yet another band-aid mechanic that addresses the symptom of a problem that has been left festering - DE has probably wasted far more time on band-aids than it ever would have taken to address the root problems.

The majority of frames do not need reworks. Many of the required changes would be simple number tweaks. Some mechanics would require a bit more than that and while I have seen players point to rework times as a reason that this isn't really an option, I point to other things that DE does within a time limit: Fortuna was done in a year. Deimos, SP, RJ, Liches, all done in two years. Along with those, we got new frames, new weapons, new mods and new arcanes. DE can do a lot in the time they allow themselves.

As for this cycle of players wanting to be OP and others wanting a challenge. It doesn't have to be either/or. They can please both in different game modes and they can have true endgame missions for those really looking to push their personal skill and endgame gear to the limit. They need stop wasting time on band-aids though.

[Frendh]

On 2022-07-16 at 4:21 PM, XAN3MK said:

The overguard addition did absolutely nothing in terms of challenge. It just reinforced the skew towards frames that didn't need excessive CC to survive, while frames that depended on it need to be shelved or depend on additional gimmicks to get by.

Overguard or no overguard, an Eximus dies either way to 6 digit numbers - and you don't even need a specific frame to do that.

Correction. It did nothing in terms of challenge for you.

There are various playstyles in the game and what overguard has done is narrow down what playstyles are valid. The choice of valid weaponry is much smaller now.  Surviving by CC is no longer valid. The context is when damage of the enemies' is a serious threat.

Before "Damage trumps all. But there is room for other routes.".  Now it is just "Damage trumps all."

If they tweaked radiation procs(and similar abilities) a bit CC immunity would be less of an issue. Even if boring when left with only two choices compared to the five score of choices you had previously.

Personally I kept playing Warframe because it was an enjoyable horde shooter. It is becoming less of a horde shooter.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

35 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Surviving by CC is no longer valid.

Bro CC was the main reason i was able to move around and survive the whole time 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

41 minutes ago, Frendh said:

It is becoming less of a horde shooter.

I dont see how not being able to use an ability on 2 out of 20 enemies, does anything to move Warframe further away from a horde shooter.

Horde shooters let you spam abilities recklessly? Or do they just let you shoot all the time and use abilities where they count most?

If its the latter, then warframe quite literally became more of a horde shooter, by adding some of the challenges horde shooters throw at players..

[XAN3MK]

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

Correction. It did nothing in terms of challenge for you.

There are various playstyles in the game and what overguard has done is narrow down what playstyles are valid. The choice of valid weaponry is much smaller now.  Surviving by CC is no longer valid. The context is when damage of the enemies' is a serious threat.

Before "Damage trumps all. But there is room for other routes.".  Now it is just "Damage trumps all."

If they tweaked radiation procs(and similar abilities) a bit CC immunity would be less of an issue. Even if boring when left with only two choices compared to the five score of choices you had previously.

Personally I kept playing Warframe because it was an enjoyable horde shooter. It is becoming less of a horde shooter.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you. It narrowed down the options while still allowing for easy way to work around the "challenge" if you bring enough explosives.
The squishy Gloom Banshee struggles, while the Gloom Saryn doesn't care and blows up the Eximus in 2 seconds anyways.

[Frendh]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I dont see how not being able to use an ability on 2 out of 20 enemies, does anything to move Warframe further away from a horde shooter.

I am focusing on the 2 of the 20 enemies when I should be focusing on the horde.

With solo Excal on Apollo the horde used to become a serious threat at about round 20 for me. Then they nerfed melee (which would have been fine if they did not buff launchers so ridiculously). Then the same threat level started earlier at maybe round 18. Now with the new eximus units it is probably lowered to round 15. So no, the horde is not the threat. The individual eximus units are. Which means the focus has been changed from the horde to the eximus units. It is less of a horde "shooter" ( " " because I favour melee).

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

19 hours ago, Frendh said:

I am focusing on the 2 of the 20 enemies when I should be focusing on the horde.

Do you really want to make the argument that most horde shooters dont have enemy priortization (even single enemy prioritization) amongst swarms of enemies... 

Or are you just talking about your preference in horde shooters. The typicaly easy starting levels in horde shooters, that have little enemy diversity and no real need to attack anything first.

Cause otherwise, it really isnt making your argument make anymore sense about warframe moving further from a horde shooter. Youre actually doing the exact opposite

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

-snip-

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-07-18 at 9:27 AM, Silligoose said:

You mentioned no Health or Shield mods, but no survival mods? No Rolling Guard, Brief Respite, Quick Thinking, Augur mods etc? What about Focus School? Vazarin? Unairu?

Percisely

I had one of the healing on transference operator arcane on, which is really just for comfort with non 1 shot kill enemies as we all know once you get high eneough an enemy level, you should really not take any health damage as it will be death

But thats it yup, rest is nothing but power strength, range, efficency, and ways to increase damage

Do keep in mind, had snow globes to cast for a few seconds of breathing room as opposed to rolling guard. Play style is like 95% avalanche, running, and shooting; 5% place a globe and breathe after shield gate goes down. I dont always break globes i leave out of too so they add to cc and protection 

On 2022-07-18 at 9:27 AM, Silligoose said:

if one is willing to recover from the downed state via Last Gasp

Yea i dont have this unlocked either, dont really plan on ever unlocking it as i feel it would only do 1 of 2 things, make easy battles with enemies easier, or do absolutely nothing in hard battles due to the operator simply just not being able to deal as much damage as my warframe

What i described above is 100% how i play my high level missions with frost. Or infinite level, the playstyle that you can survive to level cap with

On 2022-07-18 at 9:27 AM, Silligoose said:

I really am concerned DE will take the easy route and simply say "Well let's make Overguard immune to invisibility" - that would be akin to a 2-year old's solution in my opinion.

Ahh got ya

Yeah that sounds like 1 of DE's more half butted ideas. 

Its crazy though, because the New War quest had many great aspects of what actual challenge is. Its why i sit on the fence about trying to say that they arent trying. Someone certainly was in those first 3 parts of the quest, albeit, it was without our warframes but still

On 2022-07-18 at 9:27 AM, Silligoose said:

I'd expect people who address balance professionally, who get paid to mull over these types of things, to go beyond the easy way, as you did here and to go even a bit further

Yeah..... yeah youre right..... maybe theyre trying to take things slow? Be kind of bad if warframe lost its whole playerbase from too massive of a change know? So they release a little, see feedback, then either release a little more or fix up mistakes

I dont know, good point still

On 2022-07-18 at 9:27 AM, Silligoose said:

Blizzard dealt with it by way of enemy scaling and enemy resistances

Prehaps, but i still see everyone complaining. We kill enemies in warframe in mere seconds, meaning that any enemy with CC resistance, in order to still be a threat, would have to bypass that CC before then. Which id argue would make little difference with threat they pose as right now. I can easily see the same people still being upset with the noticeable "CC resistance". Keying in on the word noticeable

"They break out of my CC too fast and kill me or the objective! Oh how bad i feel so much more pressure to play high damage warframes!"

Cant you still hear them as well? 

On 2022-07-18 at 9:27 AM, Silligoose said:

Would it take some work? Sure. The amount of changes needed would be more than a simple immunity mechanic, but the payoff is not sacrificing the diversity of the game to the extent it is now. The payoff is ensuring lategame and endgame tactical and strategical depth doesn't become a shadow of its former self compared to earlier stages of progression, The payoff is being able to introduce content without having to waste time on yet another band-aid mechanic that addresses the symptom of a problem that has been left festering - DE has probably wasted far more time on band-aids than it ever would have taken to address the root problems.

The majority of frames do not need reworks. Many of the required changes would be simple number tweaks. Some mechanics would require a bit more than that and while I have seen players point to rework times as a reason that this isn't really an option, I point to other things that DE does within a time limit: Fortuna was done in a year. Deimos, SP, RJ, Liches, all done in two years. Along with those, we got new frames, new weapons, new mods and new arcanes. DE can do a lot in the time they allow themselves

Hmmm maybe

So risky and frightening to think about, as root changes truly will either make or break the game.

Dont have to cut them all though, can cut them slowly first, to get a feel for where players heads are, then cut faster and faster

Sort of like a game of hot cold

 

 

Man is always a pleasure speaking with thoughtful people such as yourself! Arguments with them truly bring out some of the best and most interesting ideas and directions!

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-07-18 at 9:27 AM, Silligoose said:

As you point out, there are methods in dealing with overpowered options. They can address the upper limits of performance, the duration of performing at that level, and/or the amount of times one could perform said action

True true

Its yet one of another of many reasons i enjoy the eximus rework, they arent very hard and sort of open the door for DE to invite new forms of combat, making fights feel more thrilling

Ig Devil Trigger that i always talk about, Which is an ability that enhances all of the players stats and abilities, and giving them additional affects like ignoring annoying resistance of enemies. You would build Devil Trigger energy by doing challenging things that require skill to overcome like

1.) Surviving after a huge percentage of your max shield and health has just been taken out. Or surviving a shot that triggered shield gate and it would have killed you had not had it, and you managed to find a way to get your shields back fully charged without the impending death thats followed after shield gate breaks. 

2.) Obvious things like head shots and killing high priority enemies

3.) Pulling off many different types of engagement to deal damage whilst avoiding damage. For example:

- Sliding while shooting or melee attacking an enemy. 

- Aim gliding and shooting enemies, double points for head shots

- Finding a safe moment to heavy attack

- And last but not least, not using the same method to kill enemies, proving thst you can adapt to any situation given

 

Once you have some energy built up, activate Devil Trigger for a brief period of time to cast an ability that ignores enemy's overguard for as long as you have Devil Trigger active. It will do other things too like double your damage out put, grant you invincibility, increase movement speed 

You can do other cool things too, like Maybe add Void Energy Orbs that will instantly fill a bar for Devil Trigger upon pick up, or creat a new support warframe centered around void energy, capable of giving allies this new type of energy slowly

37 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Be kind of bad if warframe lost its whole playerbase from too massive of a change know? So they release a little, see feedback, then either release a little more or fix up mistakes

I guess what im trying to say is that while players may not like something, there are other more creative ways for removing what they dislike, then literally removing it

[Frendh]

22 hours ago, Frendh said:

2 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Or are you just talking about your preference in horde shooters. The typicaly easy starting levels in horde shooters, that have little enemy diversity and no real need to attack anything first.

Personally I kept playing Warframe because it was an enjoyable horde shooter. It is becoming less of a horde shooter.

 

[Mag_Gaming]

Indeed, AoZ was overall one of the best updates in a while.

And with Space Mom in full charge I expect even better ones.

[PollexMessier]

On 2022-07-16 at 5:16 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I feel that but thing about CC in its current state is that it takes all the challenge out the game often times.

Limbo, cc vauban, cc slow nova, you dont play those warframes for cc if youre looking for challenge. CC has to be balanced before we can really talk about allowing it

Like you said, revenant cc is more challenge inviting, so is nyx, just use her energy as survivability through shield gate, run out of energy, rip but if you use her right, you live forever

Need an idea that keeps them from turning the game into an infinite pause menu

On 2022-07-16 at 7:15 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

You arent engaging in the fight. Limbos bubble does all the work and plays the mission for you. Thats what i mean by you not playing it

On 2022-07-16 at 5:46 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

CC warframes? The overpowered ones?  No. They are able to stop all pressure in the game forever, especially limbo. Challenge removers. Its like running through a game where all the ai is actually turned off, and you are just there, poking the enemy

I shed no tears over that. Challenge > no functioning enemies anywhere

I think variety is good, but it has to be implemented in a way that doesnt ruin/shutdown the game. Nukers stop doing that at some point, CC frames? Pfft. Need a better design

You have clearly never played on of these frames in high level content. They don't totally shut down all enemies. Anything outside of your range is an immediate threat to you or the objective. In a small room you may not notice the range issue. But in a large room, high enough level enemies can vaporize you or the objective from a distance if you're not careful. Limbo's rift doesn't actually defend defense objectives, and enemies outside of the rift can still hit it. And you have to constantly and sometimes frantically upkeep your abilities. Running out of energy can be an instant death sentence. God forbid a nullifier exists in your vicinity or all your CC can be instantly shut down depending on the frame, and now you suddenly have the entire enemy cap very pissed off at you and nothing you can do about it until the nullifier is dead.

Acolites in steel path ignoring CC was kindof nice because they were a significant threat to squishy CC frames. But only needing to deal with one at a time made it intense but manageable. CC frames aren't as simple as "press button, disable threat". Nuke frames however, are.

CC was to nuke frames as status is to crit. The former is overpowered situationally, but useless everywhere else. While the later is generally good everywhere. Now CC's not even situationally good.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

You have clearly never played on of these frames in high level content

Lololol what? Ive played them all before, some for build testing in sp mot or for fun, for 60 mins plus  

Vauban i think was the funnest time. And Equinox, energy transfer aug for 25-50 energy map lockdown if you have all enemies slowed

I even played with a limbo for 7 hours in an excavation mission, corpus enemy type so we had to worry about nullifiers, enemies all reaching over 1,000

Clearly my behind, ive had this game for nearly a decade now 😂

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

But in a large room

Right you need to cast your abilities twice to lockdown a bigger room, spamming as you usually would if you were moving from small room to small room.

Or simply max your range out to 300%

Same as you would with a nuke frame too, they have to move around a big room constantly spamming because enemies respawn in bulk far away from the player

If your limbo well theres no need to worry about how big a room is, he makes his own room

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

CC frames aren't as simple as "press button, disable threat". Nuke frames however, are

Then somethings wrong with your builds, specifically in the energy and range department, to think that you cant keep threats disabled better than a nuke frame can. Youd have to manually kill them a few at time whereas nuke has em dead already, but when that nukes damage starts falling you  still get to skip through the flowers and take 1 enemy at a time out forever.

 

 

U guys keep bringing up nuke frames, dont nuke frames not kill a eximus unit till they shoot its overguard off too? 

Damage buffing and tank frames are the only frames pushed to a better light. Not nukes, theyre still in the same boat, along with CC frames still being in their own special boat

[DrivaMain]

I think the CC immunity is too much, Nuke warframes are mostly unaffected with the new Eximus, and unfortunately they dominate the game. Overguard should give ability resistance that bosses have and that debuff from disruption which cuts CC effects by 66% and diminishing returns on subsequent casts, not complete immunity. DE already has the code for this, so they don't have to re-invent it from scratch.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

U guys keep bringing up nuke frames, cant nuke frames not kill a eximus unit till they shoot its overguard off too? 

Yes, but the damage they dish out is so much that Overguard doesn't matter to them.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

18 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Yes, but the damage they dish out is so much that Overguard doesn't matter to them.

I dont think you understand

Locking down a map with cc as a squishy cc frame, Creates the same protection as a nuke frame, as long as the enemys are unable to move, correct?

So the 1 or 2 enemies shooting you, require you to use the same good weapon for both frames, and the same panick from the damage the enemy with overguard is doing, because both of your abilities dont work on the overguarded enemy

So the threat level is the exact frame. The nuke frame cant deal its nuke damage to the enemy till overguard has been taken out but they have all other enemies dealt with, same as the cc frame being unable to cc the enemy until overguard is out while they have all other enemies dealt with

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

19 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

cuts CC effects by 66% and diminishing returns on subsequent casts, not complete immunity.

Mmm diminishing returns. I suppose that is about the only middle ground i can see coming out of this

I mean i dont like it just cause its done already with sentients so its not new in feeling but, it does end up giving CC frames more of an edge over Nuke Frames since their abilities wont outright kill the enemy, giving cc players something to protect them from. With the fact that theres diminishing returns, it will allow them to sort of keep their threat to cc players too. Encourages the team to hone in on the enemy still too

Id settle for it. 

 

That along with the devil trigger idea

[Frendh]

The litmus test I use, "Will your CC/Tank/DPS frames progress the same length solo on Apollo?". And the answer for me is no.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

4 hours ago, Frendh said:

The litmus test I use, "Will your CC/Tank/DPS frames progress the same length solo on Apollo?". And the answer for me is no.

What does that have to do with overguard? You know disruption units arent overguarded enemies?

[Frendh]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

What does that have to do with overguard? You know disruption units arent overguarded enemies?

The enemies scale quickly and eximus units become a threat long before the rest of the units.  Big difference in survivability between CC/tank/dps frames.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 hours ago, Frendh said:

The enemies scale quickly and eximus units become a threat long before the rest of the units.  Big difference in survivability between CC/tank/dps frames.

Did a few quick test runs, i see what you mean... the disruption unit requires so much focus that you need ALL enemies to either be CC'd or Dead 100% of the time to finish the disruption unit. If not, that 1 eximus unit who isnt under crowd control takes your shields and you need time to recover and deal with the eximus. Time you just dont have when the disruption unit is gunning for the objective

I could not stop that, ill try again later with more cheese methods like mods that build your shields back on ability cast and rolling guard but yeah, i couldnt find anything to work with to take the disruption units out while dealing with eximus units, with no survival items

[Silligoose]

On 2022-07-21 at 3:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Percisely

I had one of the healing on transference operator arcane on, which is really just for comfort with non 1 shot kill enemies as we all know once you get high eneough an enemy level, you should really not take any health damage as it will be death

But thats it yup, rest is nothing but power strength, range, efficency, and ways to increase damage

Do keep in mind, had snow globes to cast for a few seconds of breathing room as opposed to rolling guard. Play style is like 95% avalanche, running, and shooting; 5% place a globe and breathe after shield gate goes down. I dont always break globes i leave out of too so they add to cc and protection 

I see. I'd be interested to learn if you've ever used shield gating setups and to which extent. The reason I ask is, in my experience anyway, it sounds like some shield gating setups would be very similar to the type of play you described in the OP.

On 2022-07-21 at 3:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Yea i dont have this unlocked either, dont really plan on ever unlocking it as i feel it would only do 1 of 2 things, make easy battles with enemies easier, or do absolutely nothing in hard battles due to the operator simply just not being able to deal as much damage as my warframe

What i described above is 100% how i play my high level missions with frost. Or infinite level, the playstyle that you can survive to level cap with

I don't know how much easier it makes battles, but knowing one has that little back-up in case things go sideways, does allow one to not feel one has to play quite as defensively. It affords a sense of being able to take a little extra risk. For me anyway, it doesn't mean being able to throw caution to the wind as one can with something like Protective Dash. How high it scales depends on your Amp setup, the focus school one uses and the situation in which it is activated - with a good amp and enemies around, one can use it to revive at extremely high levels. The highest I've used it in was around lvl 3k - 4k. I suspect it goes higher, but I wasn't downed after that, so I don't know. I've also had it fail against lower levels, either due to lack of enemies, or, ironically, because there were a ton of Overguarded enemies that were too tanky and mowed the Operator down before I could get the required kills.

On 2022-07-21 at 3:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Ahh got ya

Yeah that sounds like 1 of DE's more half butted ideas. 

Its crazy though, because the New War quest had many great aspects of what actual challenge is. Its why i sit on the fence about trying to say that they arent trying. Someone certainly was in those first 3 parts of the quest, albeit, it was without our warframes but still

Personally, I think they are trying. I think they've tried a few times, but in my opinion the way they try is just... a little lacking... a little off.

The first proper attempt, the one that actually got me back into the game, was The Grendel Missions. Unfortunately DE just threw progression completely in order to present that challenge.

TNW was a good attempt at presenting greater challenge, but unfortunately that only applied to Drifter gameplay, while I much prefer frame gameplay. I had made a thread in which I requested for that level of challenge to be brought to endgame, if you have time to kill and want to read through my ramblings: 

SP and some nerfs they have done in the last year or two, certainly also makes it seem as though they are trying, but my goodness when it comes to their attempts, especially SP, it seems as though so little attention and effort went into it.

One of my concerns with that, is some companies use player metrics to decide whether mechanics are balanced, wanted or good, instead of assessing the mechanics themselves. DE may keep trying to present challenge, but do so in a way that is not great, resulting in players ignoring it due to the way challenge is presented, not because it is a greater level of challenge. The conclusion based on players metrics may be that players do not want challenge, when in reality I believe many do, just not in the way it is presented. 

Steel Path's release was a good example: Players flocked back to Warframe upon its release, but that mode was such an imbalanced mess, many did not seem to stick around. We don't have access to the data to my knowledge and I would love to know how long players played SP before leaving, but it may show that people didn't play it much and DE may erroneously assume players didn't really want a challenge, when the actual issue was the horrendous imbalances players exposed themselves to when playing SP. The same may happen with Overguard if DE doesn't pay attention to feedback. From my POV it seems as though a lot of players look for greater challenge to be presented in the game, myself included, but disapprove of Overguard, not because we do not want the greater challenge, but because the way of presenting it is rather poor, as it simply invalidates certain mechanics against certain enemies in all missions, instead of decreasing the value as it should. That's generally how games become harder: Mechanics still are important and have value, but diminish in efficacy, leading players to combing various mechanics, often at a quicker rate of execution, to overcome the greater level of challenge.

On 2022-07-21 at 3:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Prehaps, but i still see everyone complaining. We kill enemies in warframe in mere seconds, meaning that any enemy with CC resistance, in order to still be a threat, would have to bypass that CC before then. Which id argue would make little difference with threat they pose as right now. I can easily see the same people still being upset with the noticeable "CC resistance". Keying in on the word noticeable

"They break out of my CC too fast and kill me or the objective! Oh how bad i feel so much more pressure to play high damage warframes!"

Cant you still hear them as well? 

I certainly can. No matter what a dev does, some people are going to complain, but I do believe if they had a better system in place, instead of Overguard, it would've been received much better - there's a big difference in having a balance change that decreases the upper limits of performance of a mechanic against certain enemies (or even all enemies), and a balance change that invalidates that mechanic. Overguard not only invalidates cc, it also invalidates damage types. All it does, is take away and when players run into multiple Overguard enemies, they really feel the effect of having an important choice no longer being viable.

Armour scaling has the same effect: Former competitive choices are no longer competitive, because their performance fall off far too greatly in comparison to other choices.

On 2022-07-21 at 3:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Yeah..... yeah youre right..... maybe theyre trying to take things slow? Be kind of bad if warframe lost its whole playerbase from too massive of a change know? So they release a little, see feedback, then either release a little more or fix up mistakes

I dont know, good point still

Thank you. As I was typing this, I was actually thinking this may have been the inverse: Doing something extreme, then tapering it down later, which would be... baffling, so that thought may be missing the mark completely 🤣 Taking it slow would be the wise choice, but damn, if this is them taking it slow, I shudder to think what the heavy-handed pitches were. probably unconditional, all-out immunity.

You may be right though and this may be them taking it slow. As mentioned, a part of me is concerned DE wants to use the Overguard mechanic as their general "go to" for balance: "Invisibility is a problem? We'll just let Overguard detect invisibility! Damage is a problem? We'll just slap damage attenuation on it! Some frames are too durable due to damage reduction/mitigation abilities (Splinter Storm, Turbulence, Iron Skin etc)? Overgaurd will just ignore that!". It is a small part that has these concerns, especially the last one since that is a stretch, but it is there.

On 2022-07-21 at 3:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Hmmm maybe

So risky and frightening to think about, as root changes truly will either make or break the game.

Dont have to cut them all though, can cut them slowly first, to get a feel for where players heads are, then cut faster and faster

Sort of like a game of hot cold

Some changes can be risky, but how risky it is, depends on the changes and how it is implemented. DE had the perfect playground to try their changes, in the form of both an optional challenging mode, or even optional missions, but they aren't using those playgrounds. They will have another opportunity with the new upcoming Sorties that have been mentioned. I'm hoping they use that playground this time.

Some changes would be best if they go hand-in-hand and are presented together, since they are tied together in the overall picture, and can be presented as not just a nerf or a buff, but an overall rebalance which, if done correctly, will allow for greater variety in competitive choices. The new gameplay offered can be a little more challenging, but at the same time, there will be more ways to accomplish success, without a meta that vastly outperforms non-meta options.

On 2022-07-21 at 3:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Man is always a pleasure speaking with thoughtful people such as yourself! Arguments with them truly bring out some of the best and most interesting ideas and directions!

Thanks. I try to remain open-minded and I appreciate your open-mindedness and ideas as well.

[Silligoose]

On 2022-07-21 at 4:33 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

True true

Its yet one of another of many reasons i enjoy the eximus rework, they arent very hard and sort of open the door for DE to invite new forms of combat, making fights feel more thrilling

How hard it is, can be very situational. It depends on which frame and form of survivability one is using, what level of power one is at and which enemies one facing. Frost, for example has a form of survivability via Snow Globe that is not as affected by Overguard as someone like Vauban or Gyre - when you get in trouble with Frost, you can pop a Snow Globe for those precious few seconds of reprieve. Neither Gyre, nor Vauban, has that anymore. as Overguard enemies just ignore all the survivability tools, available via kit, to those frames. Assuming no invulnerability loops, if either Vauban or Gyre gets in trouble, they either have to kill the Overguarded enemy right then and there, use terrain for cover, or disengage. In certain situations, it is hard to spot and/or kill the threat then and there, cutting an option. In situations with multiple Overguarded enemies from multiple directions, neither killing them then and there, nor using cover, is an option anymore either, so they really have only one option: Disengage, often with Operator. For lower progression players, they may not even have the option to disengage via Operator.

That's the big imbalance in my opinion: Some frames really do not care too much about the Eximus changes, some frames care, but they can manage and some frames have had their options severly limited.

On 2022-07-21 at 4:33 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Ig Devil Trigger that i always talk about, Which is an ability that enhances all of the players stats and abilities, and giving them additional affects like ignoring annoying resistance of enemies. You would build Devil Trigger energy by doing challenging things that require skill to overcome like

1.) Surviving after a huge percentage of your max shield and health has just been taken out. Or surviving a shot that triggered shield gate and it would have killed you had not had it, and you managed to find a way to get your shields back fully charged without the impending death thats followed after shield gate breaks. 

2.) Obvious things like head shots and killing high priority enemies

3.) Pulling off many different types of engagement to deal damage whilst avoiding damage. For example:

- Sliding while shooting or melee attacking an enemy. 

- Aim gliding and shooting enemies, double points for head shots

- Finding a safe moment to heavy attack

- And last but not least, not using the same method to kill enemies, proving thst you can adapt to any situation given

 

Once you have some energy built up, activate Devil Trigger for a brief period of time to cast an ability that ignores enemy's overguard for as long as you have Devil Trigger active. It will do other things too like double your damage out put, grant you invincibility, increase movement speed 

You can do other cool things too, like Maybe add Void Energy Orbs that will instantly fill a bar for Devil Trigger upon pick up, or creat a new support warframe centered around void energy, capable of giving allies this new type of energy slowly

Aha. Basically you are looking at a "super form" mechanic. I enjoy such mechanics and I believe there is scope for it, but, there is also already a mechanic in place for a super form: The Operator and associated Focus Schools.

I can see ideas being implemented within the Operator's mechanics and can envision it making play more engaging and exciting, but the Operator itself needs to be revisited, yes even after the recent focus rework. The new Focus system missed the mark a little bit in my opinion, mostly due to certain abilities being overpowered.