Question about new content and roadmap

[Silligoose]

48 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

When you came into this thread stating that you were sick of non-warframe content in Warframe.

You. Moist. Biscuit.

If you forget the actual topic of the conversation mid-way, then you definitely need more than a break from Warframe, you need a solid 8 hours of sleep and then a cup of wake-up coffee.

On 2022-08-16 at 6:11 PM, Silligoose said:

Basically it seems they want to focus mainly on non-frame play... in Warframe...

I like this game for the frame gameplay. I'm not excited for drifter or grineer missions, as it feels like I'm playing an inferior action RPG game as compared to actual Warframe, and compared to other games out there.

That is what I said and that is how I feel.

You were the one jumping to conclusions based off some fabricated notions in your mind. You did exactly what you accused me of. Projection is filthy trait. Rid yourself of it. Much like non-frame play, you were a fleeting amusement, but you are starting to bore me now.

[TheArmchairThinker]

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Imbalances are rather rampant indeed. It can be addressed, but it appears DE doesn't want to do so properly, or doesn't know how to do so properly and prefer spending their time on band-aids, whilst looking to shift the main focus to non-frame play, resulting in the main draw of the game remaining rather imbalanced, especially at higher levels of progression.

With power liberation allowing you to fight level 9999? I like it because the game doesn't pretend to be "challenging" like other games where you reach that height from drip feed power. Even if we're balanced, what's the point if we're back to square one fighting level 9999 from more and more power added?

Also, I believe their shift to non-warframe is pretty much predicted when people want challenge but hissing the loudest over any hints of nerf. Now you have your balance and challenge without touching the frame where we're already overpowered that balancing has no guarantee to make things balanced

[Silligoose]

13 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With power liberation allowing you to fight level 9999? I like it because the game doesn't pretend to be "challenging" like other games where you reach that height from drip feed power. Even if we're balanced, what's the point if we're back to square one fighting level 9999 from more and more power added?

Also, I believe their shift to non-warframe is pretty much predicted when people want challenge but hissing the loudest over any hints of nerf. Now you have your balance and challenge without touching the frame where we're already overpowered that balancing has no guarantee to make things balanced

It is not a walk-over from the start and the power you speak of is drip-fed: I speak not only from my experience, but based on quite a lot of feedback from players over the years in which the initial experience all the way into mid-game was too challenging for those who were looking for an easy game. We also saw a lot of feedback from players who got stuck in TNW. This game's tone is by no means "there will be no challenge". Lategame players just seem to forget what early-to-midgame was actually like, before they unlocked the overpowered tools.

I concur and believe non-frame play is DE's way of trying to present more engaging, challenging content (compared to lategame Warframe) without nerfing mechanics related to frames. TNW's play was a good example of this.  Necramechs seemed to be an earnest attempt as well, seeing as how especially energy and health aren't replenished quite as easily as on frames. The gameplay of both Drifter and Necramechs unfortunately has to compete with frame gameplay and it just doesn't hold up in my opinion and feels like a knock-off version of frame gameplay, because let's be honest: That's all it is. You fight the same enemies with the same atmosphere in similar missions, only you have less  variety and depth.

DE has all the pieces of the puzzle in front of them to present a an amazing, even genre-defining, lategame and endgame experience, but they just don't want to, or can't, use the pieces correctly and it seems they are under the impression they need to throw some pieces away in order to present engaging, challenging content, which simply isn't the case.

It is what it is.

[TheArmchairThinker]

6 hours ago, Silligoose said:

DE has all the pieces of the puzzle in front of them to present a an amazing, even genre-defining, lategame and endgame experience, but they just don't want to, or can't, use the pieces correctly and it seems they are under the impression they need to throw some pieces away in order to present engaging, challenging content, which simply isn't the case.

Because there are pieces to throw away

- CC completely stopping enemies or massive slow like Gloom with 90%. How can you make things engaging and challenging if everyone is moving at 10% of their original speed or stopped completely, unable to do anything?

- Massive damage boost, you can't make enemies engaging if they're dead even before they're at range to fight

- Armor bypass, no need to engage or learn about armor when there's a no-brainer way to bypass even if it's the weakest damage in multiplier

There are many more to list that I might as well say turn Warframe into another generic third person shooter or third person Titanfall

7 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Lategame players just seem to forget what early-to-midgame was actually like, before they unlocked the overpowered tools.

And I'm really questioning why would they experience that phase perpetually when I'm here chasing all kind of gear that allows me to have infinite energy/MP (chaos ring from Castlevania is the best), infinite health or outright god mode

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , TheArmchairThinker 说:

Because there are pieces to throw away

- CC completely stopping enemies or massive slow like Gloom with 90%. How can you make things engaging and challenging if everyone is moving at 10% of their original speed or stopped completely, unable to do anything?

- Massive damage boost, you can't make enemies engaging if they're dead even before they're at range to fight

- Armor bypass, no need to engage or learn about armor when there's a no-brainer way to bypass even if it's the weakest damage in multiplier

There are many more to list that I might as well say turn Warframe into another generic third person shooter or third person Titanfall

And I'm really questioning why would they experience that phase perpetually when I'm here chasing all kind of gear that allows me to have infinite energy/MP (chaos ring from Castlevania is the best), infinite health or outright god mode

Again, as stated repeatedly, it is mathematically impossible to make anything that cannot be cheesed. We have 50+ frames, 200+ abilities and helminth, and arcanes, and you multiply that by 4 in a squad. No way it will work.

If people insist that such "endgame" is possible, then go ahead and try to design one using your wildest imagination. I am sure people on this forum can crack it in less than 1 hour.

You either create something that sounds challenging and then get streamrolled by the collective wisdom of the community, or you force everyone to play according to a pre-defined loadout, like TNW archon fight. Either way, people won't be happy.

 

[Silligoose]

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Because there are pieces to throw away

- CC completely stopping enemies or massive slow like Gloom with 90%. How can you make things engaging and challenging if everyone is moving at 10% of their original speed or stopped completely, unable to do anything?

- Massive damage boost, you can't make enemies engaging if they're dead even before they're at range to fight

- Armor bypass, no need to engage or learn about armor when there's a no-brainer way to bypass even if it's the weakest damage in multiplier

There are many more to list that I might as well say turn Warframe into another generic third person shooter or third person Titanfall

If something is too effective, you don't throw the mechanic away, but balance it properly:

• Cc too effective? No need to make cc simply not work at all - balance it properly so it doesn't remain as effective for as long a time
• Weapon does too much damage? No need to make the weapon not do damage at all - just balance it properly so it isn't as effective
• Armour bypassing/complete  stripping too effective compered to other options? No need to not make it work - just balance armour mechanics properly 

Now, there are people who wouldn't know how to do that and as such they would elect to throw many pieces away. That's fine. What isn't fine, is that the people who are tasked with doing that, who get paid to use those pieces correctly, don't know how to do that and want to throw many of the pieces away.

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And I'm really questioning why would they experience that phase perpetually when I'm here chasing all kind of gear that allows me to have infinite energy/MP (chaos ring from Castlevania is the best), infinite health or outright god mode

Probably because you aren't at that level of power yet. What's your main? How far are you into the game? What loadouts are you using?

[mycroft_]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

you don't throw the mechanic away, but balance it properly:

Or if you're DE, you ignore the problem and hope people forget about it or get too frustrated and stop talking about it.

They need to double or triple their programming staff so they can actually handle problems like this.

[Silligoose]

33 minutes ago, mycroft_ said:

Or if you're DE, you ignore the problem and hope people forget about it or get too frustrated and stop talking about it.

They need to double or triple their programming staff so they can actually handle problems like this.

It seems to be their MO. Though I am inclined to agree that more programming staff would help, I honestly am not sure if that is the main problem: DE has shown it can do A LOT when the direction is clear: We got PoE, a year later Orb Vallis, a year later RJ, a year later Deimos.. as one follows the timeline of massive project releases with various new mechanics, which would require a lot of programming, it is clear to me DE has the capacity to get a lot done, as long as there is vision and a direction.

Now, on one of the dev streams Pablo talked about other options they explored when it came to Overguard. Video starts at the POI. Have a listen:

 

So the other options big enough on their radar to talk about, was:

1. Only having Overguard in higher levels of play
2. Having cc abilities also damage Overguard

That's it. Move the band-aid to only some missions, or essentially convert cc to more damage. No exploration of middle ground. No talk about rebalancing of cc. No talk about a cc-adaption system, which is what actually should have been explored and fleshed out. Just 'throw that fundamental mechanic out the window and yeah cc-frames get affected more but... eh whatever".

To me, it seems the direction was "make cc not work" and in my opinion, that seems to be the main problem.

[mycroft_]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

DE has shown it can do A LOT when the direction is clear: We got PoE, a year later Orb Vallis, a year later RJ, a year later Deimos.. as one follows the timeline of massive project releases with various new mechanics, which would require a lot of programming, it is clear to me DE has the capacity to get a lot done, as long as there is vision and a direction.

But did they maintain ANY of those things? No. They squeezed out the content, and left it in the dirt.

PoE is still pretty buggy. Orb Vallis is even more buggy. RJ is an absolute disaster of a gamemode. Deimos feels empty and bad.

DE doesn't have the capacity to get things done AND do vital maintenance over time. They need more programming staff.

 

 

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Just 'throw that fundamental mechanic out the window and yeah cc-frames get affected more but... eh whatever".

You got it :/

And from that video:

"Nothing we do in this game is done with ill intent"

No, but you get to the same place with neglect or otherwise misplaced priorities...and if it gets you to the same place in the end, intent doesn't really matter.

[Silligoose]

18 minutes ago, mycroft_ said:

But did they maintain ANY of those things? No. They squeezed out the content, and left it in the dirt.

PoE is still pretty buggy. Orb Vallis is even more buggy. RJ is an absolute disaster of a gamemode. Deimos feels empty and bad.

DE doesn't have the capacity to get things done AND do vital maintenance over time. They need more programming staff.

Maintenance doesn't seem to be a priority and yeah, they seem to prefer squeezing something dry and then leaving it in the dirt, even if there wasn't much to squeeze. 

I honestly do not think that DE lacks the capacity to get things done and do vital maintenance. I think they lack the direction, passion and conviction to do so. I look at a company like Hello Games, the people behind No Man's Sky and see how much they've fixed with their 26 employees after the disaster of a launch, then look at DE and see how much they've fixed and elected not to fix with their 200 employees, instead focussing on side projects and some rather wasteful updates and I just do not see an increase in dev capacity changing DE's direction. I think if they hired more devs, they'd still continue to ignore balance and maintenance and put those new devs on more side-projects or band-aid projects, ultimately wasting much of the new resource as well.

They are electing to spend time on Kahl missions instead of fixing imbalances... that says a lot about what they'd do with more programming power.

2 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

You got it :/

And from that video:

"Nothing we do in this game is done with ill intent"

No, but you get to the same place with neglect or otherwise misplaced priorities...and if it gets you to the same place in the end, intent doesn't really matter.

Agreed.

[mycroft_]

17 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I look at a company like Hello Games, the people behind No Man's Sky and see how much they've fixed with their 26 employees after the disaster of a launch, then look at DE and see how much they've fixed and elected not to fix with their 200 employees, instead focussing on side projects and some rather wasteful updates and I just do not see an increase in dev capacity changing DE's direction.

That is a darn good point.

I think you're right...

[TheArmchairThinker]

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Cc too effective? No need to make cc simply not work at all - balance it properly so it doesn't remain as effective for as long a time

Look at any games you've played so far, I believe none at Warframe level where you can stop enemies completely and all CC are short lived just to buy you a few seconds.

Some enemies are also immune to CC, to the point of complete immunity to CC despite the CC being a short lived disruptor.

And it's not that CC doesn't work at all with overguard, you can still CC the normal units to focus on eximus. Now you have your priority targets instead of ignoring all enemies before overguard introduction, isn't that what the players asked? A dangerous enemies where you need to decide to take down the horde or the heavy unit first?

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Weapon does too much damage? No need to make the weapon not do damage at all - just balance it properly so it isn't as effective

We're not talking only about weapons, we also have abilities to boost our damage output and damage received by enemies, giving you collosal numbers from combining them which is pretty much how games work

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Armour bypassing/complete  stripping too effective compered to other options? No need to not make it work - just balance armour mechanics properly 

There's a reason why armor being absurdly high, to add importance to support roles because DPS can't brute force it. Make armor low enough and support becomes redundant if not taking away their position because DPS doesn't struggle against that.

Even big games like Final Fantasy use this. FF4 final boss (Zeromus) has defense translating into 99% damage reduction that can't be brute forced and no way to debuff enemy defense, means white magics like blink, reflect, shell, haste are important to keep up because it's immune to almost every status

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Zeromus_(Final_Fantasy_IV_2D)

Another example would be mother 3 where you spam attack and defense up to your team while spamming attack and defense down on enemies. Last time I played without caring about it ends up with me getting fatal damage on repeat, spamming healing items and PSI to keep everyone alive

It's not just a Warframe's problem, all games use this kind of imbalances to "encourage" teamwork

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Probably because you aren't at that level of power yet. What's your main? How far are you into the game? What loadouts are you using?

Because I just started from seeing my friend with his Kuva Karak reaching 100% crit and status chance, that's what pushing me to reach his level and I'm sick of games using the imbalances to claim it's a "challenging fight"

[mycroft_]

14 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

that's what pushing me to reach his level and I'm sick of games using the imbalances to claim it's a "challenging fight"

It's a cash grab on their part. You're supposed to say "Oh look how powerful that guy is" and then spend either plat or a TON of time to get there.

They shouldn't build a game around this, that's bad.

[TheArmchairThinker]

8 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

It's a cash grab on their part. You're supposed to say "Oh look how powerful that guy is" and then spend either plat or a TON of time to get there.

They shouldn't build a game around this, that's bad.

Funny you say this is bad when other games way before Warframe use this and yet you don't seem to be crusading against them, only bashing Warframe. My friend's level isn't something that will take a ton of time or plat when things are easily obtainable

On 2022-08-20 at 4:43 PM, mycroft_ said:

Or if you're DE, you ignore the problem and hope people forget about it or get too frustrated and stop talking about it.

They need to double or triple their programming staff so they can actually handle problems like this

Is it really "ignore the problem" or there's some part that is difficult to handle? Bungie's worse on this when they have 800+ staffs. Having more staffs doesn't magically solve everything

[Silligoose]

On 2022-08-21 at 5:53 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Look at any games you've played so far, I believe none at Warframe level where you can stop enemies completely and all CC are short lived just to buy you a few seconds.

Some enemies are also immune to CC, to the point of complete immunity to CC despite the CC being a short lived disruptor.

And it's not that CC doesn't work at all with overguard, you can still CC the normal units to focus on eximus. Now you have your priority targets instead of ignoring all enemies before overguard introduction, isn't that what the players asked? A dangerous enemies where you need to decide to take down the horde or the heavy unit first?

Overguard is a band-aid for a bullet wound that has pushed players further into the brute force meta. It is a bad mechanic.

On 2022-08-21 at 5:53 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

We're not talking only about weapons, we also have abilities to boost our damage output and damage received by enemies, giving you collosal numbers from combining them which is pretty much how games work

Oh, my bad I forgot that one... ahem:

Abilities boosting our damage too much? No need to make the ability not do damage at all - just balance it properly so it isn't as effective.

It isn't that hard to understand.

On 2022-08-21 at 5:53 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

There's a reason why armor being absurdly high, to add importance to support roles because DPS can't brute force it. Make armor low enough and support becomes redundant if not taking away their position because DPS doesn't struggle against that.

Even big games like Final Fantasy use this. FF4 final boss (Zeromus) has defense translating into 99% damage reduction that can't be brute forced and no way to debuff enemy defense, means white magics like blink, reflect, shell, haste are important to keep up because it's immune to almost every status

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Zeromus_(Final_Fantasy_IV_2D)

Another example would be mother 3 where you spam attack and defense up to your team while spamming attack and defense down on enemies. Last time I played without caring about it ends up with me getting fatal damage on repeat, spamming healing items and PSI to keep everyone alive

It's not just a Warframe's problem, all games use this kind of imbalances to "encourage" teamwork

That is not why armour is absurdly high, since armour stripping isn't exclusive to support roles. 

We've been through this in your thread. You ended up deflecting and running away.

On 2022-08-21 at 5:53 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Because I just started from seeing my friend with his Kuva Karak reaching 100% crit and status chance, that's what pushing me to reach his level and I'm sick of games using the imbalances to claim it's a "challenging fight"

Ok, so you aren't at that level of power yet.

I'll give you preview of the levels of power you will approach: Something like the Tenora Prime, a decent weapon, can inflict 5 million burst DPS (confusing term, but in Warframe it refers to avg dps calculated without accounting for reload) on most enemies by way of good loadouts and decent tactics. Higher tier weapons can do anything from 20 - 50+ million and the strongest weapon exceeds 100 million burst DPS on most enemies. These numbers are achievable by way of weapon-play only, meaning any frame can reach these levels of damage, even if they are completely unmodded. There are specific conditions under which, or enemies against who, this is not achievable by way of weapon-play only. Additional Warframe buffs can obviously increase damage further, but, quite frankly, aren't needed. These are all single target weapon burst DPS numbers I'm referring to. Radial AoE, despite not being able to reach some of these higher DPS numbers mentioned above, also have more than enough to take out enemies exceedingly fast.

SP has more enemy spawns and because players can kill exceedingly fast, players pick up more energy orbs than they would at lower levels of play. I cannot recall 100%, but I am fairly certain, though not 100% sure, that the increased resource drop rate in SP also contributes to more energy orbs being dropped. At high levels of progression, players can have high efficiency builds, resulting in abilities costing as little as 25% of the base cost. Paired with options such as Zenurik (which I don't use because it isn't needed), Arcane Energize (which I rarely use unless I'm doing endurance runs and shield gating setups with lower efficiency), energy pizzas, and other energy replenishing options, energy just isn't a problem. Pair that with various forms of healing, or, if players choose, straight up invulnerability and players have everything they need to trivialize content.

Many lategame players I see on SP Incursion missions are at the level where the game is far easier than it was at lower levels of progression and remains in that state perpetually, because they have access to various tools, overpowered far beyond what is needed, so even if they don't approach the maximum potential of the tools, it is already more than enough.

[TheArmchairThinker]

36 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Overguard is a band-aid for a bullet wound that has pushed players further into the brute force meta. It is a bad mechanic.

I've already listed the middle ground, but what makes them a unit that requires attention with that middle ground when they can still be harassed to death with CC?

37 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Abilities boosting our damage too much? No need to make the ability not do damage at all - just balance it properly so it isn't as effective.

It isn't that hard to understand.

And at what level is "isn't as effective" considering multiplier stacking can reach absurd damage? Let's say 180% weakness from Nezha, 10x from Banshee and 3x from chroma, that's one massive number, even limiting damage boost to only 2x still gives 8x damage easily but it doesn't feel powerful at all

46 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

That is not why armour is absurdly high, since armour stripping isn't exclusive to support roles

And how do you add importance to support if you balance armor? If we go with limit of 2700 as you suggested, it goes down to 64% DR at full corrosive stacks. DPS won't struggle with that kind, just 2x damage boost will render support redundant

50 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Many lategame players I see on SP Incursion missions are at the level where the game is far easier than it was at lower levels of progression and remains in that state perpetually, because they have access to various tools, overpowered far beyond what is needed, so even if they don't approach the maximum potential of the tools, it is already more than enough.

Is that necessary? Maybe no but does it feel good? Hell yes, that's why I jumped in, not needing to worry over if I'm killing anything fast enough from my role or equipment

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb TheArmchairThinker:

Funny you say this is bad when other games way before Warframe use this and yet you don't seem to be crusading against them, only bashing Warframe. My friend's level isn't something that will take a ton of time or plat when things are easily obtainable

Is it really "ignore the problem" or there's some part that is difficult to handle? Bungie's worse on this when they have 800+ staffs. Having more staffs doesn't magically solve everything

in my opinion that's not bad. because money has to come from somewhere.
but if someone invests 50-100€ or even more in an item/warframe and in the end it is hardly playable, then it's a rip off!
or what would you say if you buy an expensive pc and then the seller writes in the tweet that the pc is "OP" because too many players play with it. and then he comes to your house and takes out the graphics card!

and I've been playing since 2013 and have discussed with many affected players in teamspeak/discord who were affected. they don't play warframe anymore!

[Silligoose]

48 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And at what level is "isn't as effective" considering multiplier stacking can reach absurd damage? Let's say 180% weakness from Nezha, 10x from Banshee and 3x from chroma, that's one massive number, even limiting damage boost to only 2x still gives 8x damage easily but it doesn't feel powerful at all

It may not feel powerful NOW because of the available power it is measured against in the game, as well as the content it is used in, which dictates the practical performance increase. x8 is plenty powerful. The environment created, based on various mechanics, can make something as little a 50% increase, or even less, feel powerful.

57 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how do you add importance to support if you balance armor? If we go with limit of 2700 as you suggested, it goes down to 64% DR at full corrosive stacks. DPS won't struggle with that kind, just 2x damage boost will render support redundant

You are hung up on armour and the roles of support being tied in with it. For support, in various forms, to be more impactful, various tweaks are required to various mechanics.

 

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Is that necessary? Maybe no but does it feel good? Hell yes, that's why I jumped in, not needing to worry over if I'm killing anything fast enough from my role or equipment

It is a fleeting amusement, akin to playing against lvl 1 - 10 enemies on repeat.

[TheArmchairThinker]

5 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

It may not feel powerful NOW because of the available power it is measured against in the game, as well as the content it is used in, which dictates the practical performance increase. x8 is plenty powerful. The environment created, based on various mechanics, can make something as little a 50% increase, or even less, feel powerful.

But the numbers doesn't feel powerful to me, I enjoy seeing those big numbers flying around

5 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

You are hung up on armour and the roles of support being tied in with it. For support, in various forms, to be more impactful, various tweaks are required to various mechanics.

And what form we're talking about? Considering most of the time support goes to team buff and enemy debuff

7 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

It is a fleeting amusement, akin to playing against lvl 1 - 10 enemies on repeat.

And who are you to dictate if it's a fleeting amusement to me or not? I like that way instead of getting strong to have a chance against some enemies which is no different to getting your power reset back to level 1, practically grinding power forever

[Silligoose]

10 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

But the numbers doesn't feel powerful to me, I enjoy seeing those big numbers flying around

To each their own. 

10 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And what form we're talking about? Considering most of the time support goes to team buff and enemy debuff

As before, I am not in the mood to go into details.

11 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And who are you to dictate if it's a fleeting amusement to me or not? I like that way instead of getting strong to have a chance against some enemies which is no different to getting your power reset back to level 1, practically grinding power forever

If you can remain engaged and entertained fighting lvl 1 - 10 over and over, despite it being a complete walk-over and playing extremely similarly every time, good for you. Have fun with it. Most people don't, which is why games have various levels of challenge not only in terms of difficulty settings overall, but in terms of differing levels of challenge within missions themselves. To each their own.

[TheArmchairThinker]

19 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

If you can remain engaged and entertained fighting lvl 1 - 10 over and over, despite it being a complete walk-over and playing extremely similarly every time, good for you. Have fun with it. Most people don't, which is why games have various levels of challenge not only in terms of difficulty settings overall, but in terms of differing levels of challenge within missions themselves. To each their own.

Honestly, what kind of "challenge" that will stay challenging forever? I see it as a vain effort when it's goes as challenging at the beginning until someone cracks them down with all kind of things in game, then it's back to demands for more challenge that is cracked down again. Repeat as many times as you wish.

Even if you want to balance things, you will end up at this situation

On 2022-08-20 at 2:19 PM, RichardKam said:

Again, as stated repeatedly, it is mathematically impossible to make anything that cannot be cheesed. We have 50+ frames, 200+ abilities and helminth, and arcanes, and you multiply that by 4 in a squad. No way it will work.

If people insist that such "endgame" is possible, then go ahead and try to design one using your wildest imagination. I am sure people on this forum can crack it in less than 1 hour.

You either create something that sounds challenging and then get streamrolled by the collective wisdom of the community, or you force everyone to play according to a pre-defined loadout, like TNW archon fight. Either way, people won't be happy.

 

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

I am unsure how this thread has turned into what it has turned from OP's question about what to expect later on this year but if I am allowed I'd like to jump in.

 

Regarding the theme of Overguard, damage boosts and SP;
I dislike Overguard, not only because of CC nullifying but also because of it being extra health for the sake of being extra health, which I am sure enemy AI already had plenty of, moreover on Steel Path. Eximus could easily have gotten CC resistance instead of total immunity in the form of a white bar on top of their already existing health bar.
It might not be very hard to remove, but the CC immunity it grants is honestly what really makes them an unfun problem for frames that normally require of CC to survive on SP, such as Banshee, and not the fact that they're more resistant or have abilities, as she does easily negate both of those with Silence and Sonar.
I am only using Banshee as an example for she's one of my most used, but I am aware of other squishy frames having a tough time with this.

Now, truly there's plenty of ways to deal damage in the game to get rid of this "mechanic" but, is this really what makes combat and enemy AI engaging?
Ideally, Overguard was meant to be piece of cake for operators so that alternating between frame and soul was a bigger part of combat, but even with the innate +50% damage weakness to Void damage, on high levels our space kiddies can't do much to them.
Yes, you could use Void Strike or Temporal Anchor, or maybe yet another Tenno ability, but why do that when your main gun will most likely bring it down quicker?
And there's also no animation delay from exiting frame and going back in, so also less chances of possibly dying and blah blah blah...

---------

On another subject, CC & Gloom;

I find annoying the constant hammering on Gloom being too strong, as it requires quite the amount of PS to really reach that 95% slowdown threshold, 277% if am not mistaken, and not all frames are better off going full strength, some need more duration, more range... efficiency we don't talk about efficiency... but the thing is, what about Sevagoth?
Turns out, he doesn't have many ways to survive outside of his Gloom, and even then, on SP, a few random shots from an enemy outside of its range or just an Eximus will easily get rid of you. You may put it on a tank, which will heavily favour them, but ironically this ability came as part of a pretty squishy and slow frame, as a way to precisely deal with the issue that taking constant or big chunks of damage is for squishy frames. Looks like DE is playing a couple too many games of dice and trying to fuse them all at the same time.
It isn't working well.

CC as a whole has been part of the game since ever, so why make common enemies as Eximus are, or were, negate their effects now?
It isn't an issue on normal levels, lets say 40-60, but once you start to head on SP and Endurance runs, it really becomes unfun.
Though, if you're going for endurance runs you normally carry a loadout that can pretty much get rid of anything considerably fast / wit ease, which one could use as argument to negate the point of Overguard being a problem.

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To summarise, since there's a billion ways to deal damage, and to some the best form of CC is a dead enemy, we will continue to gain power and ways to do this at a pretty stable pace, since there's no way to go back and "balance things" any more without upsetting a portion of the community.
But what do you know, sometimes it is okay to make changes that not everyone likes instead of trying to please as many as possible.

[Silligoose]

14 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Honestly, what kind of "challenge" that will stay challenging forever? I see it as a vain effort when it's goes as challenging at the beginning until someone cracks them down with all kind of things in game, then it's back to demands for more challenge that is cracked down again. Repeat as many times as you wish.

Even if you want to balance things, you will end up at this situation

Very broad question. I'll give you a broad answer: Situations that test parameters of performance remain challenging. Simple as that.

The other Tenno is wrong: It is not mathematically impossible to make anything that cannot be cheesed, because mechanics that cheeses gamaplay are exceptional outliers in upper performance. As these mechanics are addressed, the methods for cheesing decrease and can be eradicated.

The ways by which those mechanics can be addressed varies - some will be good, some will be bad and many will lie somewhere within the spectrum of extremities.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Pablogamer585:

I find annoying the constant hammering on Gloom being too strong, as it requires quite the amount of PS to really reach that 95% slowdown threshold, 277% if am not mistaken, and not all frames are better off going full strength, some need more duration, more range... efficiency we don't talk about efficiency... but the thing is, what about Sevagoth?

That's a matter of taste and I've hardly used it. and only play high end content.
Also, who can use the skill sensibly? saryn miit primed flow and arcane energize lvl 5 IF SHE PLAYS SOLO??? it can't be serious! because i prefer to get pimped wisp and loot warframe in the group and then i have 1000+ kills in 5 min on sp and will swim in loot!

and silence makes more sense in my opinion, because only usable range + duration is needed here. then damage reflect or other annoying stuff is not an issue! and you can cast it instantly!

So just accept more possibilities and don't always use tunnel vision...

[RichardKam]

43分钟前 , Silligoose 说:

Very broad question. I'll give you a broad answer: Situations that test parameters of performance remain challenging. Simple as that.

The other Tenno is wrong: It is not mathematically impossible to make anything that cannot be cheesed, because mechanics that cheeses gamaplay are exceptional outliers in upper performance. As these mechanics are addressed, the methods for cheesing decrease and can be eradicated.

The ways by which those mechanics can be addressed varies - some will be good, some will be bad and many will lie somewhere within the spectrum of extremities.

Then go ahead and try. Make us a theoretically challenging scenario. We are waiting.