Question about new content and roadmap

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 18 minutos, Venus-Venera dijo:

That's a matter of taste and I've hardly used it, and only play high end content.
Also, who can use the skill sensibly? Saryn miit primed flow and arcane energize lvl 5 IF SHE PLAYS SOLO??? it can't be serious! because i prefer to get pimped wisp and loot warframe in the group and then i have 1000+ kills in 5 min on sp and will swim in loot!

That is true, Gloom becomes not-as-useful on "high end content" for multiple reasons.

As to who can use that ability sensibly, I guess you're saying from a player perspective, not frame? To which I'd answer, everyone who knows what they are doing.

hace 26 minutos, Venus-Venera dijo:

and silence makes more sense in my opinion, because only usable range + duration is needed here. then damage reflect or other annoying stuff is not an issue! and you can cast it instantly!

It is a really good form of CC, still, I would argue that not going past the base range and maybe even using lower duration is more useful as it allows you to recast it more often, therefore stunning enemies easily, whereas if you go for duration and range, you could stun enemies out of sight and probably they would recover and get close to you.
The duration of the stun isn't that long, even if it works perfectly. My Banshee uses both Gloom and Silence, which helps a lot in most situations.

20 meters is, in my opinion, the perfect range for Silence.

hace 44 minutos, Venus-Venera dijo:

So just accept more possibilities and don't always use tunnel vision...

Is that... for me? I was just mentioning how I don't comprehend why people complains about gloom, but I only use it on... 1,2,3,4... yeah, 4 frames.
As for the rest, I've already got plenty of CC sources that I enjoy using. Mostly Resonator, it can be stupidly fun to see enemies following a beach ball.

[Silligoose]

8 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Then go ahead and try. Make us a theoretically challenging scenario. We are waiting.

Getting an eagle on a par 5 hole.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Pablogamer585:

Is that... for me? I was just mentioning how I don't comprehend why people complains about gloom, but I only use it on... 1,2,3,4... yeah, 4 frames.

As for the rest, I've already got plenty of CC sources that I enjoy using. Mostly Resonator, it can be stupidly fun to see enemies following a beach ball.

Not. because we're talking in the public forum and that's not a private message. 👍

[Surbusken]

Just a sidenote to the 'hitpoint sponging" in video games part.

 

The concept is not x number of hits with x weapon, the concept is 'using enemy health as a subsitute for gameplay or difficulty'.

... which is to say, how the debate of 'hitpoint sponging' relates to warframe, is players asking for better AI and more complex gameplay... instead of 'just more NPC health'.

Overguard being the most recent example, where we did not see an increase in complexity or an expansion of gameplay, we actually had the game reduced by killing off CC abilities.

That's the debate.

If they had more or less health or what they had, the issue is the lack of gameplay...

Defining exactly how many shots it takes with what weapon, before it is formally 'hitpoint sponging', really has zero to do with the point of the criticism.

[killerJoke66]

6 hours ago, Silligoose said:

 

Many lategame players I see on SP Incursion missions are at the level where the game is far easier than it was at lower levels of progression and remains in that state perpetually, because they have access to various tools, overpowered far beyond what is needed, so even if they don't approach the maximum potential of the tools, it is already more than enough.

Okay but how does one balance around ' what is enough and needed damage to kill ' and not just blanket nerf the top tiers so the game becomes a slog , i mean how would DE even approach to what is ' appropriaote damage ' ? 

Best i've seen so far was the dps narrowing formula with the deimos jugulus units , not saying theyre hard to kill for an endgame player but it was something 
 

[killerJoke66]

Also about the overguard , someone mentioned in this thread that eximus units can just simply have diminhing timers for same cc , so you cant just spam frosts 4 and be done with it you gotta use your whole kit and spoiler mode maybe .

But we already have nullifers , i think overguard is redundant in that aspect , we already have the cc diminishing stuff with something like sentients on lua , they also have damage adaptation 

[Silligoose]

2 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

Okay but how does one balance around ' what is enough and needed damage to kill ' and not just blanket nerf the top tiers so the game becomes a slog , i mean how would DE even approach to what is ' appropriaote damage ' ? 

Best i've seen so far was the dps narrowing formula with the deimos jugulus units , not saying theyre hard to kill for an endgame player but it was something 
 

You mean the damage attenuation formula tied to the Jugulas that blanket nerfs top tier, top performing setups to a greater degree than lower tier setups? How is that better than blanket nerfs on top tiers? 

[killerJoke66]

36 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

You mean the damage attenuation formula tied to the Jugulas that blanket nerfs top tier, top performing setups to a greater degree than lower tier setups? How is that better than blanket nerfs on top tiers? 

i said it was a nice try , since its only one unit and instead of nerfing say 3 weapons as a whole you just limit interaction with heavy units , also that formula doesnt 'blanket nerfz' top tier , you can still apply viral and armor strip to those units and you can cc them unlike what we have with overguard right now 

no matter how you put it no ,  your comparison is just flat out incorrect from so many aspects and thats just at the top of my head . DE done better before overguard i was only giving examples for it and yes i stand behind what i said . 

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

i said it was a nice try , since its only one unit and instead of nerfing say 3 weapons as a whole you just limit interaction with heavy units , also that formula doesnt 'blanket nerfz' top tier , you can still apply viral and armor strip to those units and you can cc them unlike what we have with overguard right now 

no matter how you put it no ,  your comparison is just flat out incorrect from so many aspects and thats just at the top of my head . DE done better before overguard i was only giving examples for it and yes i stand behind what i said . 

You didn't say it was a nice try, you said it is the best you've seen so far and you asked how one balances around what is enough needed damage without blanket nerfs to top tiers. I have to assume you think this garbage is better than proper rebalancing.

That formula applies a nerf based on the DPS of your weapon, specifically based on modded damage, modded fire rate, modded multishot and body part multipliers.

Luckily I've done this for another thread, so compare the formula's effect to that to non-damage attenuation enemies:
 

No damage attenuation:

Hit enemy with base setup: 1k burst dps
Make weapon 5 times stronger -----> Same enemy takes 5k burst dps
Make weapon 5 times stronger again ------> Same enemy takes 25k burst dps
Hit a weakspot eg head (double damage on most enemies) -----> Enemy takes 50k burst dps

With damage attenuation:

Hit enemy with base setup ----> Do 1k burst dps
Make weapon 5 times stronger -----> Same enemy takes 3950 burst dps instead of 5k 
Make weapon 5 times stronger again -----> Same enemy takes 8450 burst dps instead of 25k 
Hit a headshot -----> Do 10990 burst dps instead of 50k

That's not made up - that's what the Jugulas formula actually does. For the Jugulas specifically, after the burst DPS has been given a new value, crit multipliers are applied if applicable, so we get some extra encouragement to use crit since it is a little niche and needs some help or something. Thank good ness crit gets a place to shine, finally! Other DA formulas nerfs damage in different ways.

Damage Reduction | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

So, is this better than rebalancing exceptional outliers in performers and if so, what is better about this? The fact that top tier setups don't get nerfed against fodder, so we don't go from one-shotting fodder to... one-shotting fodder with a lower overkill number? Whoop-dee-doo! Or is it the fact that players get to go in thinking because they farmed and improved their weapon to do x5 times the damage, from 5k to 25k, they get that nice little surprise that it only performs a little over x2 times better? Is that better than just giving players accurate information along with rebalances as required? 

I don't know if it is better to you. You'll probably answer that soon. To me, it isn't. It is a band-aid that nerfs higher tier performance anyway, confuses players and causes frustration and mistrust, while not even working because the formula's become outdated and powercrept anyway, leading to DE having to go back and waste time redoing them again, all so they don't have to balance the upper levels of performance correctly the first time.

[killerJoke66]

28 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

~~

1- ' you didnt say t was a nice try '  pointless bad faith stuff , yes i meant that i dont need to say word to word to deliver the exact meaning , its not on my end 

2-  it is not a band aid , a unit like jugulus actually being tankier or a saxum unit being tankier than your fodder units doesnt mean DE wont ever fix their game ever , it starts with meaning that those units are harder to kill , secondy averaging dps formula is just a one way to approach the whole thing , maybe they come up with better things alongside with that , we can chew gum and walk at the same time and all that 

3-  at this point let me tell you i dont care about ur attitude okay , so you want to hear ' I have to assume you think this garbage is better than proper rebalancing. ' , this is ' proper rebalancing ' at least a part of it , good things dont decend from the sky instntenously ,  you build them and yes i believe theyre on good track with these formulas.
    Just because you personally not finding them as a solution doesnt make them not a part of the solution , it means you just dont takea liking at it , small changes like that is part of their rebalancing. 

4- yes i mentioned on the 'what is needed damage ' quoting you and with you no solutions you throw me a hissy fit when all you can do is to call these formulas ' shady dev stuff' when you can perfectly pull them from wf wiki and DE does mention stuff like this on their streams or whatever , i dont think you need a red text saying '' uhh these new enemies have fvkfewkaogkü397=()?= formula tenno good luck '' that would be more ' confusing ' than what you imply they doing being confusing 

[killerJoke66]

@Silligoosealso with this 'proper rebalancing' give me a magical number for a top tier weapon to be balanced on, it doesnt happen like that because what you imagine if a foo boo boo dream  , unless you can do that (finding the magical number) damage negater formulas are way to go , as in unless they find (or other people) smtg better.

[Silligoose]

4 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

1- ' you didnt say t was a nice try '  pointless bad faith stuff , yes i meant that i dont need to say word to word to deliver the exact meaning , its not on my end 

2-  it is not a band aid , a unit like jugulus actually being tankier or a saxum unit being tankier than your fodder units doesnt mean DE wont ever fix their game ever , it starts with meaning that those units are harder to kill , secondy averaging dps formula is just a one way to approach the whole thing , maybe they come up with better things alongside with that , we can chew gum and walk at the same time and all that 

3-  at this point let me tell you i dont care about ur attitude okay , so you want to hear ' I have to assume you think this garbage is better than proper rebalancing. ' , this is ' proper rebalancing ' at least a part of it , good things dont decend from the sky instntenously ,  you build them and yes i believe theyre on good track with these formulas.
    Just because you personally not finding them as a solution doesnt make them not a part of the solution , it means you just dont takea liking at it , small changes like that is part of their rebalancing. 

4- yes i mentioned on the 'what is needed damage ' quoting you and with you no solutions you throw me a hissy fit when all you can do is to call these formulas ' shady dev stuff' when you can perfectly pull them from wf wiki and DE does mention stuff like this on their streams or whatever , i dont think you need a red text saying '' uhh these new enemies have fvkfewkaogkü397=()?= formula tenno good luck '' that would be more ' confusing ' than what you imply they doing being confusing 

1. Moving on.

2. HP, armour and shields are the tools used to make enemies durable by devs. Inattention to upper levels of potential power in terms of player damage output has resulted in these tools losing effectiveness. That's what imbalances do and devs can either address those imbalances, or try to take a shortcut. Damage attentuation is the shortcut, because DE wants to have their cake and eat it to: They want to pretend players are gaining massive amounts of power, but at the same time they don't want players to actually have that power, so they can throw players over the wide spectrum of power and progression into the same mission. They keep doubling down on it and keep adding unaddressed exceptional outliers in performance as a result. I hope I am wrong and I hope they come up with something better or start addressing imbalances, but I don't see that happening - I see it getting worse.

3. Rebalancing can be done in good ways and bad ways. This is one of the bad ways. Continually ignoring the imbalances pertaining to upper levels of potential power is, in part, what has led to the current meta where everything is too easy, co-op has lost a lot of meaning and players feel like they are playing jogging simulator, which players are clearly not happy with. You may see it as a step in the right direction even though this step has been taken for years now, but I don't: We won't agree on this.

4. I refer to it as "behind the scenes" because that is what it is and that is what DE refers to it as. Go read players' reactions on this very forum to Liches after their DA formulas were changed. They were mad and confused as to why their weapons weren't performing even close to what it should have. They didn't know know why certain setups that seemed to be weaker, were somehow performing better than setups that were supposedly stronger. They didn't understand why setups of similar power on two different types of weapons had vastly different levels of performance against Liches. It came to a point where players realized that certain setups and weapons aren't affected as nearly as negatively by the formulas as others, so even though the weapons players liked, and had invested in, should have been a competitive choice in dealing with Liches/Sisters, they actually weren't, because the band-aid didn't hold. It sucked for those players to realize their investment didn't have the value it should've had.

The needed damage depends on what DE wants to present and at which level they want to present it: If they want heavy units or Eximus to present a more formidable foe at endgame for endgame players, that can last for a minimum of 2 seconds, they need to consider the potential damage output of players at that lvl of power by way of gun-play from various top tier weapons and address exceptional outliers in performance Then they need to consider how much a weapon's raw power can be increased by way of weakpoints, damage types and statuses and how that will actually affect the time-to-kill. If there is an exceptional outlier in performance, they need to address the outlier, preferably by way of rebalancing it instead of making it invalid. They can then create a baseline from which to work in terms of enemy durability. From there they need to consider the potential damage boost(s) by way of non-weapon sources, especially exceptional outliers in performance, that may result in the enemy being killed much faster than they had been planning for and address those exceptional outliers in performance by rebalancing it.

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

- - - 

okay , baseline ?? ,  good ??  , tell me a weapon which has an avergae of dps (modded) that doesnt upset the ' 2 seconds ' rule , no the answer is not the stug , and this is with no warframe buffs , im just curious

I am empahasizing on this becasue i dont think we are at a point where its healthy for DE to consider to become another corridor shooter (even though they started as one yes yes i know but im glad they derailed from that pathway personally )  maybe their new game , im saying in a more realistic approach  the dps blocking formulas work just great without necessarily nerfing peoples toys for ALL content.

[mycroft_]

18 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Funny you say this is bad when other games way before Warframe use this and yet you don't seem to be crusading against them

Lmfao, how do you know? This is the Warframe forum, not everything I do online happens here.

The patterns I see in Warframe development mirror patterns elsewhere. They're bad. I don't like them elsewhere either.
 

18 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Having more staffs doesn't magically solve everything

You're right about that, unfortunately. They would probably mismanage a bigger team too.
 

10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Honestly, what kind of "challenge" that will stay challenging forever?

A good one!

[Silligoose]

25 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

okay , baseline ?? ,  good ??  , tell me a weapon which has an avergae of dps (modded) that doesnt upset the ' 2 seconds ' rule , no the answer is not the stug , and this is with no warframe buffs , im just curious

I am empahasizing on this becasue i dont think we are at a point where its healthy for DE to consider to become another corridor shooter (even though they started as one yes yes i know but im glad they derailed from that pathway personally )  maybe their new game , im saying in a more realistic approach  the dps blocking formulas work just great without necessarily nerfing peoples toys for ALL content.

Ideally, they'd address the immense discrepancy in performance regarding the lower levels and higher levels of performance to which damage output soars by way of Galv mods and Weapon Arcanes first and change some the stacking mechanics from "on kill" to "on hit" or "on proc of x" etc, Another player in another thread had another interesting idea as well: Pablo's monotonous gameplay issues - General - Warframe Forums, there's scope for more variety than the current system.

The changes can allow for peaks and valleys to remain, but don't lead to the massive discrepancy in lower power and upper levels of power as is currently experienced and move from there. They can use something like the Rubico Prime and assume a 2.5x sniper combo.

There's no need for the game to become a corridor shooter and it should not be the goal in my opinion.

[TheArmchairThinker]

6 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

Lmfao, how do you know? This is the Warframe forum, not everything I do online happens here.

The patterns I see in Warframe development mirror patterns elsewhere. They're bad. I don't like them elsewhere either.

How often I see people like that in forums? Complain about one thing in Warframe but is okay, sometimes praising the same thing they bash for being in Warframe

6 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

You're right about that, unfortunately. They would probably mismanage a bigger team too.

You seem to be stuck despite being all negative about Warframe

[TheArmchairThinker]

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Very broad question. I'll give you a broad answer: Situations that test parameters of performance remain challenging. Simple as that.

Means something requiring you to maintain your performance, but how long it will stay challenging?

Let's say Void Armageddon with enemies attacking both exodampers at the same time, challenging? Maybe yes but how long will it last when you can deploy a squad of specters to hold one point? One vapor-cosmic, one ancient healer, one shield osprey would make a point almost require no attention, removing the need of performance on both exodampers so what kind will it be? We have enough gears to ease up if not eliminating performance requirements

Not to mention things about performance most of the time on the numbers, you have lower numbers means you will have some hard time and vice versa

[Gamma745]

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Getting an eagle on a par 5 hole.

So, in Warframe equivalent, akin to beating the TNW Archon within 2 mins?

[Silligoose]

10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Means something requiring you to maintain your performance, but how long it will stay challenging?

Let's say Void Armageddon with enemies attacking both exodampers at the same time, challenging? Maybe yes but how long will it last when you can deploy a squad of specters to hold one point? One vapor-cosmic, one ancient healer, one shield osprey would make a point almost require no attention, removing the need of performance on both exodampers so what kind will it be? We have enough gears to ease up if not eliminating performance requirements

Not to mention things about performance most of the time on the numbers, you have lower numbers means you will have some hard time and vice versa

It does mean something that requires one to maintain performance, but also for that requirement to be a little under max potential performance of the individual.

In Warframe, challenge is lacking - it is one of the things many have a problem with, so they make their own challenge: Doing a a Capture speedrun on Ukko in under 23 seconds will probably always be a challenge, because even if we get gear that makes us faster, it isn't just the gear that is being tested, but our reactions and skill.

Doing a 6x3 tricap in one night is probably something else that will remain a challenge, not in terms of not dying, but in terms of timing everything right. Greater gear may make a 6x3 less challenging over time.

RichardKim asked for an example of something that will always remain a challenge and I said getting an eagle on a par 5 hole. Even though golf is also a game, and we get many tools to play that game, the association(s) overlooking the game of golf ensures players don't become overpowered and can't cheese the course: They make rules to ensure balls can't travel too far. Clubs can't hit too far. AI/machines aren't used to play for people. Machines aren't allowed to help players see how to put etc. Upper limits of gear performance is kept in check and if the upper limits do become greater, the content, ie the golf course, is changed, by lengthening the par 5,  

9 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

So, in Warframe equivalent, akin to beating the TNW Archon within 2 mins?

It could be. I'm not sure what level of challenge that presents. As mentioned above, it could also be something like doing a Capture on Ukko in 23 seconds or less, or doing a 6x3 tricap in one night solo.