Question about new content and roadmap

[TheArmchairThinker]

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Really?

• Serration:  +165% damage
• Bane of Grineer: +30% damage

Same description for two different methods of adding damage.

Pretty sure the explanation is quite clear, with Bane of Grineer being bonus damage against Grineer or it's not clear enough?

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

No mention of Shattering Impact reducing the base armour value of an enemy, ie it takes the same amount of strikes to strip the armour of, for example a lvl 30 Heavy Gunner as it does a lvl 150 Heavy Gunner, provided they are on the same Star Chart.

So it's better to reducing base armor or modified armor? Considering this makes armor almost trivial with melee spamming

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Hardly any mention of how armour or the associated damage reduction scales, especially on higher level enemies, which is why players get a shock when they first try SP. The UI is the closest thing to showing it, but I highly doubt players realize some of the enemies they are facing in SP has 98%+ damage reduction due to their armour.

I believe they would have some basic knowledge from other RPG games where you spam defense down, attack down, slow and such because enemies are stronger than you

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The UI doesn't show how additional stacks of a mechanic can impact damage or survivability, so some may not realize just how much of an impact Arcane Guardian could have on the EHP of frames with lower base armour.

For 900 extra armor or 75% damage reduction, I believe most players at that level already have ways to mitigate damage or fast enough to avoid hits. I believe codex or arsenal have this explanation

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

• Adaptation claims resistance against damage types received, when in reality it only adapts to the most heavily weighted damage type on an enemy's weapon, even if the enemy's attack has more than one damage type.
• Increasing Slash damage via mods such as Sweeping Serration won't increase the DOT value of Slash procs, even though mods increasing elemental damage, such as Infected Clip, do increase the DOT damage from Toxin procs. I am not aware of this being stated to players anywhere in the game.
• Certain enemies, such as Demolishers, are immune to most forms of CC, but aren't immune to others, such as Ensnare, for some reason
• Hitting the weakspots on certain enemies grants an extra damage multiplier, beyond the x2 damage multiplier, based on the level of crit the shot/strike had. Note that some enemies' weakspots may grant a base damage multiplier that is not x2 .
• Damage attenuation

Didn't bother to go at this other than Slash being the easiest armor ignoring damage type with no preparation needed unlike other builds where you need primer and other things to work so having a fixed value would mean keeping it from overshadowing other damage type. Or you prefer it to not bypass armor and able to increase the DoT with slash mods?

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not saying the game has to spoon feed players everything, but it certainly is certainly obscure and said obscurity most certainly leads to players being confused as to why some things work better than others. In some cases, it is far more obscure than it should be in my opinion.

Pretty sure other games have this kind of "hidden mechanism" to play with you, hell, even I found out about hidden EXP gain reduction from Harmony of Dissonance after reading the wiki when monsters that give huge amount of EXP end up giving me only 1 EXP after several levels up as one of the mechanics

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

More importantly, how can you claim SP enemies are bullet sponges?

Let me put it this way: there is not a single weapon in this game I love enough to work up to seven Forma. Even my favorite gun of all time the Corinth Prime, only one Forma. I do have a Pandero Prime with three forma, but that just made me sick of the Pandero Prime. And I would have never gotten the Paracesis up to all five forma (which in the past, you had to do to unlock the Erra cutscene) if it wasn't for a Railjack backstab exploit I used to farm all the Intrinsics

So every single gun I own, every single one, I am just firing round after round after round and the enemies aren't dead. They just stand there tanking headshot after headshot. They are spongy as hell

Now of course I did the Steel Path missions anyway. I can beat them. But none of my guns were able to do jack-all against the enemies. Instead I took Saryn and Khora and abused their truly absurd scaling

[TheArmchairThinker]

9 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

They are spongy as hell

The usual "high level area" or "endgame" nonsense where you need to combine all element from DPS to support to be efficient.

The usual recipe

Team

- DPS role and abilities

- healing ability

- team defense up

- team offense up

- haste (speed up)

- reflect

- evasion up

- dispel

Enemy

- enemy defense down (armor strip)

- enemy offense down (weaken)

- slow

- blind

- paralysis

- sleep

- evasion down

- petrify

- silence

Pretty much RPG games use this

[Silligoose]

29 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Let me put it this way: there is not a single weapon in this game I love enough to work up to seven Forma. Even my favorite gun of all time the Corinth Prime, only one Forma. I do have a Pandero Prime with three forma, but that just made me sick of the Pandero Prime. And I would have never gotten the Paracesis up to all five forma (which in the past, you had to do to unlock the Erra cutscene) if it wasn't for a Railjack backstab exploit I used to farm all the Intrinsics

So every single gun I own, every single one, I am just firing round after round after round and the enemies aren't dead. They just stand there tanking headshot after headshot. They are spongy as hell

Now of course I did the Steel Path missions anyway. I can beat them. But none of my guns were able to do jack-all against the enemies. Instead I took Saryn and Khora and abused their truly absurd scaling

 So, because you are apparently unwilling to use the tools available to you pertaining to offensive weapon power, enemies are bullet sponges... right... kind of like how players claim lvl 30 enemies are bullet sponges because they don't want to use mods... yeah...

What if someone said SP enemies are too tough for Khora or Saryn and when you ask why, they say it is because they were unwilling to put forma into them, or maybe even the Endo into mods to rank them, or a potato on them? How seriously would you take their claim?

Enemy EHP balance in more difficult modes, in any game, is measured by power available to players, not their own little whims on whether or not they want to use that power.

Hopefully you understand how ridiculous your claim is...

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Pretty sure the explanation is quite clear, with Bane of Grineer being bonus damage against Grineer or it's not clear enough?

17 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Same description for two different methods of adding damage.

Seems DE has another victim of bad descirptions.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Pretty sure the explanation is quite clear, with Bane of Grineer being bonus damage against Grineer or it's not clear enough?

So it's better to reducing base armor or modified armor? Considering this makes armor almost trivial with melee spamming

I believe they would have some basic knowledge from other RPG games where you spam defense down, attack down, slow and such because enemies are stronger than you

For 900 extra armor or 75% damage reduction, I believe most players at that level already have ways to mitigate damage or fast enough to avoid hits. I believe codex or arsenal have this explanation

Didn't bother to go at this other than Slash being the easiest armor ignoring damage type with no preparation needed unlike other builds where you need primer and other things to work so having a fixed value would mean keeping it from overshadowing other damage type. Or you prefer it to not bypass armor and able to increase the DoT with slash mods?

Pretty sure other games have this kind of "hidden mechanism" to play with you, hell, even I found out about hidden EXP gain reduction from Harmony of Dissonance after reading the wiki when monsters that give huge amount of EXP end up giving me only 1 EXP after several levels up as one of the mechanics

I listed obscurities.

[TheArmchairThinker]

1 minute ago, Silligoose said:

I listed obscurities

Isn't obscurity often used as hidden mechanics that often being confusing? Not much difference to me

[TheArmchairThinker]

2 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Seems DE has another victim of bad descirptions.

One adds base damage and one adds +30% bonus damage from total damage, what's so obscure about it?

[TARINunit9]

39 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

 So, because you are apparently unwilling to use the tools available to you pertaining to offensive weapon power, enemies are bullet sponges... right... kind of like how players claim lvl 30 enemies are bullet sponges because they don't want to use mods... yeah...

I can see your logic in theory, but no for two reasons.

First let me address this:

40 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Enemy EHP balance in more difficult modes, in any game, is measured by power available to players, not their own little whims on whether or not they want to use that power.

Have you ever heard the term "health/damage asymmetry"? It's a concept in video games where the player always has more DPS and the enemy always has more EHP. We see it everywhere from Doom to Final Fantasy, and Warframe is no different. So just on a literal level, yes, enemies ARE bullet sponges. Heaped on top of that, the enemy health in SP is literally tripled. 

Now as for this:

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

 because you are apparently unwilling to use the tools available to you 

I beat the mode, I used the tools. It just wasn't FUN. Steel Path demands not just using a set of tools, but using them exclusively without looking at any other tools, in a specific playstyle exclusive to all other playstyles, with harsh punishments for so much as stepping a single toe out of line.

And if you still think that's my fault, then tell me why the other tools and playstyles were added to the game at all

One person once accused me of trying to get through Steel Path by driving screws into wood with a hammer. My rebuttal to that, is that Steel Path is miles and miles of screws, and the only tool available to you is a solid neutronium sledgehammer. 

[Silligoose]

12 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I listed obscurities.

10 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Isn't obscurity often used as hidden mechanics that often being confusing? Not much difference to me

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

It would be nice if DE wasn't quite as obscure with the game's mechanics or descriptions, so players aren't quite as confused with regards to why certain things work better than others. 

18 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Things aren't as obscure as you think, it's just players tend to not bother to learn and copy things off youtube and complain when things don't go smoothly with their youtuber cookie cutter build

12 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I listed obscurities.

10 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Isn't obscurity often used as hidden mechanics that often being confusing? Not much difference to me

You claimed the game ins't as obscure as I seem to think. I listed some of the obscurities I believe the amount of obscurities causes a lot of confusion, as well as frustration for many players and I believe it plays a role in players deciding to quit. If you disagree, that's fine.

11 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

One adds base damage and one adds +30% bonus damage from total damage, what's so obscure about it?

Despite the descriptions, one uses multiplicative damage multipliers, whilst the other uses additive damage multipliers., which interacts differently with other damage increasing mechanics. Depending on the frame one uses, one may want to use additive damage multipliers instead of multiplicative damage multipliers and vice versa. 

It is one of the things that causes confusion, as players may think having Limbo or Chroma with +1000% damage bonusses should mean x10 damage, but on some setups, it may only result in x3 times the damage, whilst in other cases it would actually mean x10 times the damage, due to the mods used. Expected damage may also differ depending on the mod setup if using something like Roar, for the same reason.

[Silligoose]

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I can see your logic in theory, but no for two reasons.

It is the same thing: A player is claiming enemies are bullet sponges becuase their personal choice in power leads to taking them a long time to kill enemies.

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Have you ever heard the term "health/damage asymmetry"? It's a concept in video games where the player always has more DPS and the enemy always has more EHP. We see it everywhere from Doom to Final Fantasy, and Warframe is no different. So just on a literal level, yes, enemies ARE bullet sponges. Heaped on top of that, the enemy health in SP is literally tripled. 

Higher EHP =/= bullet sponge. Bullet sponges are enemies that take an inordinate amount of time to kill, especially in relation to the class, provided the tools and tactics used are at the proper level for the content. Higher level enemies that have higher levels of EHP in progression style games, aren't automatically bullet sponges. If players can kill fodder enemies in 3 seconds at lower levels of progression, then encounter enemies with x2, x3, x5 hell, even x100 times the EHP later on in progression, but are still able to kill them in pretty fast due to player progression in power, then those higher EHP enemies aren't suddenly bullet sponges.

Games tend to become more complex as players progress through them and players usually have to start using more tools in conjunction with one another to maintain a similar time to kill. Often times, that means an increase in pace, since players have to start doing more things in the same period of time order to get the same results when comparing higher progression play vs lower progression play ie at earlier levels of progression one could kill fodder in 3 seconds with just shooting. At higher levels one has to buff oneself, or debuff the enemy, or first kill the enemy's support unit and then one can kill the enemy by shooting. The problem I often see when players complain about "bullet sponges", is that they don't want to use the higher level tools in conjunction with one another at higher levels of game progression and as a result, their performance suffers - these plaeyrs want either a devolution, or stagnation, in gameplay. If developers listen to these types of players' feedback, the game would become incredibly imbalanced, the pacing would decrease with progression and the overall gameplay would stagnate, since one would be doing the same things at higher levels as one did at lower levels, most likely with less effort and even with a slower pace. It is bad balancing, because it results in too much repetition across tiers of progression.

In RPG games like Final Fantasy the enemies become durable, but players gain abilities beyond "Basic Attack" or "Basic Spell", as well as stronger gear and as a result, those enemies are still killed pretty fast if players use the right tactics, or at times when players are overleveled, the same basic tactics as at early game, so these more durable enemies aren't bullet sponges either.

"Bullet sponge" can also not automatically be applied to more durable enemies that actually do take longer to kill, even if using more tools later in stages of progression, because one has to account for the pacing of the game and the role of the enemy - if the pace and/or role is not inordinate, then those enemies, including bosses, aren't bullet sponges either. 

46 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I beat the mode, I used the tools. It just wasn't FUN. Steel Path demands not just using a set of tools, but using them exclusively without looking at any other tools, in a specific playstyle exclusive to all other playstyles, with harsh punishments for so much as stepping a single toe out of line.

And if you still think that's my fault, then tell me why the other tools and playstyles were added to the game at all

One person once accused me of trying to get through Steel Path by driving screws into wood with a hammer. My rebuttal to that, is that Steel Path is miles and miles of screws, and the only tool available to you is a solid neutronium sledgehammer. 

You can argue the amount of competitive choices, or viable tools, become too narrow in SP. I agree, but that is a balancing issue pertaining to the damage- and durability mechanics in the game. I don't think it is quite as stringent as you make it out to be, but it is pretty damn stringent and becomes more stringent as players enter endurance runs.

You can argue that, as a result of the limiting of tools being too high in SP, it isn't fun, which I can understand.

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Telling others not to provide feedback, since similar feedback has been provided for years, is short-sighted and if some heeded your words, it could end up hurting the game's overall health, as number would drop without DE understanding why.

Telling others that the answer is 'no', has been 'no' for six years, and the Devs have actively said it will remain 'no' prevents the feedback forums from filling up with repeated requests so that it's easier to see the real feedback.

When you're pushing the pull door, it's no longer helpful.

Find something realistic to complain about.

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I play mainly for fun

Sounds like it isn't fun for you right now, guess it's time for you to stop then.

[TARINunit9]

40 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Higher EHP =/= bullet sponge. Bullet sponges are enemies that take an inordinate amount of time to kill, especially in relation to the class, provided the tools and tactics used are at the proper level for the content.

I agree with this in isolation, but let's broaden the perspective here a little.

Let's say you're playing frames built around damage buffs and enemy debuffs, while using weapons high in AoE damage. Would the enemies take an inordinate amount of time? Probably not.

But let's say you're playing a stealth frame - because there are missions in this game that reward stealth - with some crowd-control powers and with most of your resources in your melee weapon. Would the enemies take an inordinate amount of time?

To put it another way, when I read your earlier posts, the impression I got was: "if enemies die quickly to at least one build, then they are too squishy." And if that's what you intended to say I heavily disagree with it. 

48 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

You can argue the amount of competitive choices, or viable tools, become too narrow in SP. I agree, but that is a balancing issue pertaining to the damage- and durability mechanics in the game. I don't think it is quite as stringent as you make it out to be, but it is pretty damn stringent and becomes more stringent as players enter endurance runs.

You can argue that, as a result of the limiting of tools being too high in SP, it isn't fun, which I can understand.

Quite so, I am glad we have some common ground 

[BatVenomPL]

4 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Thanks for the replies. I completely missed the Veilbreaker update it seems. Is it just a story mission for the grineerbro or do you think there'll be more to it?

From what we've seen, it will probably be a whole game mode for Kahl. We've even seen appearance customizations for him

[BatVenomPL]

4 hours ago, White_Matter said:

 

Edit: accidentally sent the same message twice, ignore this one

[Silligoose]

31 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I agree with this in isolation, but let's broaden the perspective here a little.

Let's say you're playing frames built around damage buffs and enemy debuffs, while using weapons high in AoE damage. Would the enemies take an inordinate amount of time? Probably not.

But let's say you're playing a stealth frame - because there are missions in this game that reward stealth - with some crowd-control powers and with most of your resources in your melee weapon. Would the enemies take an inordinate amount of time?

To put it another way, when I read your earlier posts, the impression I got was: "if enemies die quickly to at least one build, then they are too squishy." And if that's what you intended to say I heavily disagree with it. 

Regarding the stealth frame example, the comparison would have to be made to performance of the stealth frame with melee at lower levels of play. I do not believe enemies take an inordinate amount of time in SP when using melee.

Oh no. If it was a case of enemies only being one-shot due to at least one build, the problem, in my opinion, would be with the build being overpowered compared to other options. Enemies in SP die quickly to all frames, by way of various loadouts on various weapon types. The level of weapon power is so great in comparison to enemy durability, that damage buffing frames don't really have much practical value. 

 

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Silligoose said:

Enemies in SP die quickly to all frames, by way of various loadouts on various weapon types. The level of weapon power is so great in comparison to enemy durability, that damage buffing frames don't really have much practical value. 

 

See, I'm not sure that's true. If it was just me hoarding forma that would be one thing. But even on my weapons that I do put more time into, Steel Path enemies just do not die... Unless I run one very specific, very overpowered build that focuses on a very specific tactic (spamming viral and slash), in which case they die just as fast as the starchart.

So from my perspective, your claim that enemies in Steel Path die easily is either just outright false false, or is claiming "enemies die easily to this one build, therefore enemies are too squishy against every build"

[Silligoose]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

See, I'm not sure that's true. If it was just me hoarding forma that would be one thing. But even on my weapons that I do put more time into, Steel Path enemies just do not die... Unless I run one very specific, very overpowered build that focuses on a very specific tactic (spamming viral and slash), in which case they die just as fast as the starchart.

So from my perspective, your claim that enemies in Steel Path die easily is either just outright false false, or is claiming "enemies die easily to this one build, therefore enemies are too squishy against every build"

Hunter munitions Viral/Slash? You don't need that. Most of my builds do upfront damage with no issue. Are you using Galv mods? Are you using Weapon Arcanes? Every now and then I'd do SP Incursions with unpotato'd weapons, though they may have a forma in there, just so that additional tactics and buffs from sources other than the weapon, have some value. You can pm me your build or post it here.

[TARINunit9]

18 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Are you using Galv mods? Are you using Weapon Arcanes? 

Yes and yes

I'll have to hit you up in PM because I'm not at my main PC right now, but I feel like I've tried every build that isn't Viral Crit Munitions, and they just never work.

So yeah, I'll send you my builds when I can and we'll find out if there's something I just haven't been able to see, or if we live in different worlds after all

[Silligoose]

7 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes and yes

I'll have to hit you up in PM because I'm not at my main PC right now, but I feel like I've tried every build that isn't Viral Crit Munitions, and they just never work.

So yeah, I'll send you my builds when I can and we'll find out if there's something I just haven't been able to see, or if we live in different worlds after all

Sure. I was actually editing my prev post just now, as I remembered you mentioning that you don't really invest much forma into weapons, so you most likely aren't getting the type of damage I'm talking about, but hit me up.

 

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Telling others that the answer is 'no', has been 'no' for six years, and the Devs have actively said it will remain 'no' prevents the feedback forums from filling up with repeated requests so that it's easier to see the real feedback.

When you're pushing the pull door, it's no longer helpful.

Find something realistic to complain about.

Ah, like the "no" that remained "no" for open worl.. wait, bad example... You mean like the "no" that remained "no" for frame reworks in the near futu... that's not it either. Hmmm, seems feedback can actually turn the perceived eternal "no" into a "yes". Weird. You make it sound as though some law of nature has been violated....Someone phone the scientist-hotline!, get them down here so they can investigate this!!

I'm sure you have fun putting on your dictator hat and telling people on some forum for some game not to give feedback on some things and hey, maybe some even listen and as a bonus, you may even get some likes for that sweet sweet dopamine shot, but I don't have a problem breaking the immersion of your roleplay.

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Sounds like it isn't fun for you right now, guess it's time for you to stop then.

Despite my disappointment with regards to certain decisions DE makes, or chooses not to make, I pop on every now and again and self-nerf for some fun. At times I go OP and find that fun, if only for a fleeting moment. I'd pop onon more if DE valued player investment more, but at this point,it is what it is and until they send me contract to help fix their game, the most I can do is provide feedback on the things I like and the things I dislike.

Thanks for the tip though. Unneeded, but I appreciate you caring.

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Ah, like the "no" that remained "no" for open worl.. wait, bad example

You mean the 'We're not looking into that right now' that became 'we're looking into that right now'?

Because I was there for those DevStreams, I was there for when they answered the questions about Open Worlds. And specifically DESteve even said 'we're never going to rule anything out', which was followed up by the standard statement of 'we're not looking into it right now' (which has been used many times in various forms like 'it's not on the table at the moment').

15 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

You mean like the "no" that remained "no" for frame reworks in the near futu...

You mean the 'no' that never existed? The only time that they've ever said anything like that is 'we have no plans for reworks in the near future, because they're based on when we have inspiration for them'.

They have answered 'not in the near future' on specific Warframes, and that turned out to be true because it took another year or more for those specific Warframes to get reworks.

20 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

wait, bad example

No, that's a good example of a straw man argument.

Where you're either deliberately misinterpreting, or completely falsifying a situation, and making a false equivalence.

Neither of those examples existed in the context you've given them, and neither of those examples are relevant to this conversation.

17 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Hmmm, seems feedback can actually turn the perceived eternal "no" into a "yes".

No amount of feedback will un-Operator warframe. Nor will it un-Necramech it. Nor un-Railjack it. Nor un-Archwing it. Or in the future, un-Horse it.

This isn't a matter of the 'no' being a function of 'can we have this' and the Devs saying 'no'.

This is a matter of people like you saying 'I don't want this thing that's been part of the game for six years' and everyone else looking at you like you've got a brain injury.

Updates will, forever more, have these things in them. And more than them. Because the game already has them, and DE will update them, and expand on the concepts they started. Just as they have for every single other aspect of the game.

It's time to put on your big person pants and stop crying on the floor about it.

More importantly it's time for you to actually have some reading comprehension about the argument you're trying to have, because just throwing random things at the wall and hoping they stick doesn't win you anything.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-08-16 at 2:52 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Things aren't as obscure as you think, it's just players tend to not bother to learn and copy things off youtube and complain when things don't go smoothly with their youtuber cookie cutter build

Many certainly do that.  But  Warframe is quite obscure, veering sometimes into outright misinformation.  I think you've forgotten how much you've learned about the game from the wiki, from other players, and from trial and error.

7 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

23 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Really?

• Serration:  +165% damage
• Bane of Grineer: +30% damage

Same description for two different methods of adding damage.

Pretty sure the explanation is quite clear, with Bane of Grineer being bonus damage against Grineer or it's not clear enough?

That sounds like a demonstration of the problem. :/ 

Anyway, no, it's not clear enough.  Used against Grineer, the 30% damage from Bane of Grineer is not equivalent to a 1 rank Serration's 30% damage.  Somebody comparing the mod cards for the first or hundredth time would not know the difference without resorting to outside sources or testing. 

 

[Silligoose]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You mean the 'We're not looking into that right now' that became 'we're looking into that right now'?

Because I was there for those DevStreams, I was there for when they answered the questions about Open Worlds. And specifically DESteve even said 'we're never going to rule anything out', which was followed up by the standard statement of 'we're not looking into it right now' (which has been used many times in various forms like 'it's not on the table at the moment').

Oh sweet you also heard they'd never rule anything out. That's great! Now we are on the same page and we can laugh off this apparent paraphrasing/quote/whatever it is, together:
 

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

and the Devs have actively said it will remain 'no'

Funny stuff. 

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You mean the 'no' that never existed? The only time that they've ever said anything like that is 'we have no plans for reworks in the near future, because they're based on when we have inspiration for them'.

They have answered 'not in the near future' on specific Warframes, and that turned out to be true because it took another year or more for those specific Warframes to get reworks.

Cool cool cool. Maybe they get some inspiration for other things players give feedback on, like actual attention to frame gameplay, that, according to you, players have been asking for, for 6 years. Maybe we'll even get some decent balance at lategame and endgame. Goodness knows the feedback helped bring SP. It wasn't a great first step, but a step in the right direction. This is really moving into a positive direction and can inspire players to also continue to give feedback and continue to remind DE we are here for the frame play, even if some community members may not like seeing that feedback 🙂

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, that's a good example of a straw man argument.

Where you're either deliberately misinterpreting, or completely falsifying a situation, and making a false equivalence.

Neither of those examples existed in the context you've given them, and neither of those examples are relevant to this conversation.

Lmao ironic you saying that, then reading your next paragraph... 

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No amount of feedback will un-Operator warframe. Nor will it un-Necramech it. Nor un-Railjack it. Nor un-Archwing it. Or in the future, un-Horse it.

This isn't a matter of the 'no' being a function of 'can we have this' and the Devs saying 'no'.

This is a matter of people like you saying 'I don't want this thing that's been part of the game for six years' and everyone else looking at you like you've got a brain injury.

Updates will, forever more, have these things in them. And more than them. Because the game already has them, and DE will update them, and expand on the concepts they started. Just as they have for every single other aspect of the game.

It's time to put on your big person pants and stop crying on the floor about it.

More importantly it's time for you to actually have some reading comprehension about the argument you're trying to have, because just throwing random things at the wall and hoping they stick doesn't win you anything.

Deliberately misinterpreting, or completely falsifying a situation, you say? Where exactly did I say they need to un-Operator, or need to un-Necramech etc? Stones and glass houses and all that...

Why would DE need to un-Operator, or un-Necramech etc? Those things being in the game isn't the big issue, but rather that the main focus in Warframe seems to be moving away from frame play. You know, the gameplay DE mainly showcases. The gameplay that lures players in. The gameplay that hooks players. The gameplay most players log in for, The gameplay we keep seeing threads about, in which players continue to voice concerns about the lack of balance, the devolution of the frame gameplay experience etc, because that is the aspect that carries the most weight for most players. 

I hope you understand this: Most players aren't here for Drifter, or Operator, or RJ, or Necramechs. They are here for the frames and the action pertaining to frames. They want to see more content and better balance, pertaining to frames and when the main focus seems to be shifting away from the main draw of the game, most players are, unsurprisingly, not going to be very happy.

I recently received some good, though misdirected, advice, which you should heed: 

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

More importantly it's time for you to actually have some reading comprehension about the argument you're trying to have, because just throwing random things at the wall and hoping they stick doesn't win you anything.

 

 

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Anyway, no, it's not clear enough.  Used against Grineer, the 30% damage from Bane of Grineer is not equivalent to a 1 rank Serration's 30% damage.  Somebody comparing the mod cards for the first or hundredth time would not know the difference without resorting to outside sources or testing. 

That's a good example 👍

[TheArmchairThinker]

13 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Despite the descriptions, one uses multiplicative damage multipliers, whilst the other uses additive damage multipliers., which interacts differently with other damage increasing mechanics. Depending on the frame one uses, one may want to use additive damage multipliers instead of

So it's better to say +30% total damage than only saying damage, is that what you're trying to say?

13 hours ago, Silligoose said:

It is one of the things that causes confusion, as players may think having Limbo or Chroma with +1000% damage bonusses should mean x10 damage, but on some setups, it may only result in x3 times the damage,

So what kind of explanation needed for that?

7 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Those things being in the game isn't the big issue, but rather that the main focus in Warframe seems to be moving away from frame play. You know, the gameplay DE mainly showcases. The gameplay that lures players in. The gameplay that hooks players.

Probably because the power of Warframe being too strong that balancing wouldn't guarantee things would go as you wish. Look at how any frame can go as all roles from support, dps, tank and nearly immortal through mods and arcane, even the minor numbers like molt reconstruct gives 36 health on first ability at maximum efficiency, up to 600 health on fourth ability without efficiency build, how are you going to balance that? And nerfing damage would change the meta to CC spam

[Silligoose]

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So it's better to say +30% total damage than only saying damage, is that what you're trying to say?

I already said what I was trying to say. Tiltskillet gave a good example of the obscurity involved and how the current descriptions can lead to misconceptions and player confusion.

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So what kind of explanation needed for that?

Going through what I would do to improve the experience for players is beyond the scope of this discussion and I am not in the mood to go through the improvements required to improve the player experience properly.

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Probably because the power of Warframe being too strong that balancing wouldn't guarantee things would go as you wish. Look at how any frame can go as all roles from support, dps, tank and nearly immortal through mods and arcane, even the minor numbers like molt reconstruct gives 36 health on first ability at maximum efficiency, up to 600 health on fourth ability without efficiency build, how are you going to balance that? And nerfing damage would change the meta to CC spam

Imbalances are rather rampant indeed. It can be addressed, but it appears DE doesn't want to do so properly, or doesn't know how to do so properly and prefer spending their time on band-aids, whilst looking to shift the main focus to non-frame play, resulting in the main draw of the game remaining rather imbalanced, especially at higher levels of progression. I'd address imbalances within various mechanics both directly and indirectly, since various mechanics are intertwined in the symphony that is balance.

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Where exactly did I say they need to un-Operator, or need to un-Necramech etc?

When you came into this thread stating that you were sick of non-warframe content in Warframe.

You. Moist. Biscuit.

If you forget the actual topic of the conversation mid-way, then you definitely need more than a break from Warframe, you need a solid 8 hours of sleep and then a cup of wake-up coffee.