Power Creep gave Grind more Meaning

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

I was orginally sort of against the idea, but ive noticed something missing this year in Warframe that i hadnt really experienced before now that im no longer focused on managing my clan. Which is that i have nothing to do now that ive reached so much power in Warframe. I love opening the game, seeing how powerful i am, and how cool i look; i also want to go use it but i get stopped in my tracks at the thought of how pointless it is. 

Issue Breakdown

I think one of the reasons why some of my best memories in Warframe was when i was new player, was actually because of power creep and the way it was implemented. Rather than a simple increase of numbers, there was more to it. As i grew stronger, noticeable difference happened in every aspect of the game. 

- New enemy types emerged

- New Warframes became easier to unlock

- New builds could be created

There was always something new to light your eyes up, and they were all hidden behind this barrier of simple power creep, and because of that, it made power creep feel good. Everytime you found a stronger build, theres this little sense of excitement as you subconciously recall how much good this means for you. Making all those hours grinding feel so worth it! Its good for your clan members to who may need help in higher level missions

Now though? Now that i have so much power and can easily exceed level 100 enemies, that feeling is GONE. New quest comes out? Just need to be able to handle level 40 enemies. New Warframe? Pfft level 40, easy. New alerts? No problem, its all level 40 content.

New update? Might be level 60 content 😈

Meanwhile that same update update comes with new items like an arcane that gives you +250% power strength that you are supposed to want to grind for. Its neat and all but, i just 1 shot all the enemies at content level without the arcane so... why get it exactly when the higher level enemies arent giving me anything? 

Signs Other Players Want Power Creep Too

I see some demand over the past year, rising for bringing more weapons into combat, more mod slots, faster leveling, etc

But in a game where everything is already being obliterated, the point of adding these things shrinks. Trying to ask for such new mechanics is like trying to ask for more melee combos in a game where you are already 1 shot killing enemies. Your combo will be used on air.

An Alternative Direction

If you asked me "Would you rather have a new Warframe that will take 4 months to make, and last you a week of getting used to" as opposed to an update with like 20 new upgrades for my warframe to experiement with, unlocked through level 300 enemies, and say the next warframe will be unlockable through those enemies too in a later update

Option B sounds amazing. Best believe im going to busting my behind learning the best builds with certain warframes so that i can be ready for when the new 1 drops, and im still going to be doing it after that because now i know there will be hard challenges and i may need all my warframes to be prepared for it. Making that grind for more power feel good again

And granted warframes repetitive, making a mission that have to be done a trillion times, actually feel good to do, should be a top priority.

Plus, its what Warframe has always been about since day 1

Summary of What Im Hoping For

- Higher Level Enemies with milestones for Cool Rewards

- More high level challenges

- More ways to upgrade your warframe

All to make grind feel more worth it

I think going to do level 40 missions here and there is fine and all, just no longer make it the primary focus. 

Thoughts?

[Synpai]

I think you're misconstruting avenues of play and theorycrafting with powercreep.

 

Powercreep typically refers to vertical progression that invalidates previous power and necessitates the new power tier. 
 

If you NEEDED an Incarnon Weapon or a Lich Variant to progress in Angels of Zariman onward, for example. 

The key thing to remember is that enemies don't have to infinitely increase in level to provide a challenge, in fact that's a misconception as players can trivialize level 9999 steel path enemies as is. Enemy level is artificial difficulty.

DE rightfully seem to be aiming at enemy & mission variation in lieu of artificial difficulty. 

 

IMO what is important is that they focus on the alternate methods of play. The focus rework for example opening up mild build variety. They actally did mention that there would be a form of Warframe progression in Veilbreaker that may provide us new and interesting Warframe investment, theorycrafting and build paths.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

13 minutes ago, Synpai said:

The key thing to remember is that enemies don't have to infinitely increase in level to provide a challenge, in fact that's a misconception as players can trivialize level 9999 steel path enemies as is. Enemy level is artificial difficulty.

Thats my point, i fully realize what power creep is, its not challenge that i want it for, its for a means to grind. To do a mission over and over, and proceed to the next.

A barrier that slows down the rate at which you experience new content, without doing things like time gating or a month wait for umbra forma to gain an ounce of more power that may hardly be noticiable

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

9 minutes ago, Synpai said:

DE rightfully seem to be aiming at enemy & mission variation in lieu of artificial difficulty. 

Especially when considering that this process, While good, is very time consuming for DE to create

[CrownOfShadows]

Well, I posted somewhere else about this, but we basically get 2 types of content these days: open worlds and quests.

Now the open worlds are more for everybody, and it's fine if they're lvl 50-60 or whatever, i guess. We probably should have new content for everyone.

The introduction of SP should be taken into account with quests though, since they're a progression system and the people at the top of the ladder are now also into SP. So basically, moving forward, I am of the opinion that future quests should be SP based, not old starchart level based.

Or perhaps we need some type of total transition method, where past a certain point your entire starchart experience becomes irreversibly SP, and the old star chart becomes a sort of beginner's playground.

Would I rather have an update that focused entirely on upgrading and expanding existing systems rather than introducing a new open world, a new quest, or a new warframe?

Actually yes, I think I would, kinda burned out on all of those +1

Not saying those are bad things, just saying it might be time to pull back and take a long view, think about where we're heading, about SP, and about new players and leveling - it's all a bit of a mess right now. Like a lot of people are pointing out, we're still running fissures and invasions and syndicate missions and all sorts of content at beginner levels, and where there was before a step or two between those and something like the sedna or kuva fortress, now there's a massive gaping canyon between those and Zariman SP.

[gamingchair1121]

literally no one wants power creep what are you talking about

power creep is bad for the game because over time, the older weapons will get worse for dealing with higher level content. we've seen this with the zariman, where there's not much of a reason to not use aoe, especially on steel path.

[CrownOfShadows]

Well, I think OP's point is that a game (especially a gear game like WF) where there is zero power creep and it's totally stagnate isn't very enjoyable either.

Power creep gets a bad rap, but you actually do have to have some power creep; it tends to keep people interested and helps maintain a sense of forward progression. I think his point is that WF feels like it has lost it's forward momentum, not because of our arsenal, but because of the enemies.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

33 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

literally no one wants power creep what are you talking about

power creep is bad for the game because over time, the older weapons will get worse for dealing with higher level content. we've seen this with the zariman, where there's not much of a reason to not use aoe, especially on steel path.

 

20 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well, I think OP's point is that a game (especially a gear game like WF) where there is zero power creep and it's totally stagnate isn't very enjoyable either.

Power creep gets a bad rap, but you actually do have to have some power creep; it tends to keep people interested and helps maintain a sense of forward progression. I think his point is that WF feels like it has lost it's forward momentum, not because of our arsenal, but because of the enemies.

^ This, is actually spot on and summarized better than i could have

I want more content around those enemies, to make the grind for power feel more worth it. If all content is just going to be lower levels, im better off not grinding for more power and just sitting in low level content till ive used it up.

And any low level content offering grind for more power, no sense going for it, no reason to use it when all content is low level anyways

[Lutesque]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Thoughts?

I don't think you know what Power Creep actually is 🤔.... 

9 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Thats my point, i fully realize what power creep is, its not challenge that i want it for, its for a means to grind. To do a mission over and over, and proceed to the next.

That's still not what Power Creep Means 🤔....

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Or perhaps we need some type of total transition method, where past a certain point your entire starchart experience becomes irreversibly SP, and the old star chart becomes a sort of beginner's playground.

No....  What makes you think Anybody would want this ? 

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Like a lot of people are pointing out, we're still running fissures and invasions and syndicate missions and all sorts of content at beginner levels, and where there was before a step or two between those and something like the sedna or kuva fortress, now there's a massive gaping canyon between those and Zariman SP.

What feels especially Strange is DE thought they could get Everybody on the Same level by Having a Bunch of Double Credit and Affinity Weekends....

Alot of players levelled up during that time but at the Same time alot of players also started playing Warframe so as Expected that Approach didn't Change anything...

The Reason DE keeps making New Content and keeps existing Content at beginner levels is Because that's exactly what the Majority of Warframe players Are.... Veterans are always Quitting so it's just a never ending influx of Beginners....

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Power creep gets a bad rap, but you actually do have to have some power creep; it tends to keep people interested and helps maintain a sense of forward progression.

Nope.... Power Creep is Bad Design, pure and simple. If you want to Maintain player interest then do it with Horizontal Progression like many other Games do....

 

[Frendh]

I personally do not like power creep. But I know most if not all players who have told me they do not like power creep have at some point complained about new weapons that are not better than the old ones are a waste of time or a pointless addition to the game. So, they are not actually against power creep.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 hours ago, Frendh said:

I personally do not like power creep. But I know most if not all players who have told me they do not like power creep have at some point complained about new weapons that are not better than the old ones are a waste of time or a pointless addition to the game. So, they are not actually against power creep.

Right they just didnt like their fav weapons get so far out performed. I used to be like that to but now i realize theres ways to arround that and still make power creep feel good

Like each warframe can have sort of a tree upgrade system akin to operators that you can unlock to cause additional affects for that warframe the longer you use them. You may even unlock new abilitites, augment slots, or cool side affects to certain attacks like creating an ice wave on slam attacks every 30 seconds. 

And like arbitrations there can be events for these particular warframes that can greatly boost your rewards if you choose to play that warframe. But the event may be really challenging so you will have want to have played and upgraded the frame to handle the challenge, or have a really good friend with you

[Frendh]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Right they just didnt like their fav weapons get so far out performed. I used to be like that to but now i realize theres ways to arround that and still make power creep feel good

I think I was being unclear. They complained about new weapons being bad as in they wanted the new weapons to be better than the old weapons.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

4 hours ago, Frendh said:

I think I was being unclear. They complained about new weapons being bad as in they wanted the new weapons to be better than the old weapons.

Oh i see, okay yeah thats wild but i get it. You already have a shotgun that kills everything, why get another if its doing too much of the same thing or worse

I see, my b, ive been so off lately

[Lutesque]

20 hours ago, Frendh said:

I think I was being unclear. They complained about new weapons being bad as in they wanted the new weapons to be better than the old weapons.

If the Old Version of a Weapon is Good them the New Version Doesn't Need to be a Direct Upgrade.... It can just Be Side Heide like The Tenors Prime or Corinth Prime (now that Critical Deceleration has been Updated).... It's Garbage like The Panthers where I a Started Grumbling about Weapons Needing To Be Better....

And to make matters even Worse... They Just Up and Forgot about Fusilai Prime 😱 !!!

16 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Oh i see, okay yeah thats wild but i get it. You already have a shotgun that kills everything, why get another if its doing too much of the same thing or worse

Because The Other Looks and Sounds Better 😎....

Look... The Kuva Weapons Strong but Honestly they Are straight Up Ugly.... Il gladly take Rehashed Weapons if they look Better and you know what... I bet you would too... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-08-20 at 8:23 AM, Lutesque said:

Because The Other Looks and Sounds Better 😎....

Style over power has always been my go to as well

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-08-19 at 1:28 AM, Lutesque said:

Nope.... Power Creep is Bad Design, pure and simple. If you want to Maintain player interest then do it with Horizontal Progression like many other Games do....

Many games do it through power creep too, its simple and easy to use to keep players playing. First game that comes to my mind about is Elder Scrolls

I havent confirmed this but i think destiny does it too

 

Most other games that dont use it i find to be story based games or pvp, as opposed to grind

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Many games do it through power creep too, its simple and easy to use to keep players playing. First game that comes to my mind about is Elder Scrolls

Single Player Games have an End... What they have is not Power Creep... What they have is Progression that has a Predetermined End Point....

2 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Most other games that dont use it i find to be story based games or pvp, as opposed to grind

Exactly.... Hence that comparison doesn't apply to Warframe....

It's still not a Good Reason to adopt a Design that renders older Content Useless Fodder...

It's not good for the players because it makes them think their Investments don't matter and it's not Good for the Developers because they can't produce content faster than we can chew through unless they resort to Eggregious Grinds such as With Focus or Fortuna's Syndicates....

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-08-23 at 4:01 AM, Lutesque said:

It's not good for the players because it makes them think their Investments don't matter

Well this isnt true

Im sure you had your favorite frame that you really wanted, lets say that frame was locked behind some hard mission that required you to have primed serration

Youd get damaged serration, that would allow you to ger the normal variant, and your normal would allow you to get primed, primed lets you get your favorite warframe

 

Thats how even real life investments work. You invest into something small or affordable first, and then grow, leaving behind small things for bigger things. Like an old 5,000 dollar car to a 100,000 dollar one. You still needed that 5k dollar car to get to where you are today

Progression

Its invalidating old stuff yes, but not the good stuff like a warframe or weapon. Its invalidating things that you shouldnt care too much about losing, to get things you care about gaining

 

 

Its weird to describe. Its power creep, but its not the 1 that invalidates things you actually want or should want i should say. It tries to invalidate things players can live without in order to keep them updating their builds.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-08-23 at 4:01 AM, Lutesque said:

they can't produce content faster than we can chew through unless they resort to Eggregious Grinds such as With Focus or Fortuna's Syndicates

And thats the other issue too, that grind. Doing that mission 1,000 times locked to rng, as opposed to gaining new things or feeling like you will be making your next grind easier

See with power gains, even if you dont like the content the update offers, you still are going to be grinding because what if that next update offers something you want badly? You want to make that possible month grind into a 3 month or 6 month? Most likely not, so you are going to make sure your power is kept up to date

However if everything is just rng. A boringish update comes out and players could just be like "welp, i have nothing to do, and im already overprepared for next update, so..." and they leave, waiting for an update that gives them things they personally like 

 

 

Its what i mean. Constant progression like that of story driven games, in games that are made to keep players playing forever would be Optimal! Thats everybodies w dream! But its not possible. Teams either dont have the tech or the staff to fulfill such desires. The amount of work required for it is Enormous, impossible really, as not even the most equipped development teams have ever been able to deliver such a game. So they have to resort to content delays. Not as desireable but the only option they have to make people feel like playing longer

Time gates, excessive rng, or a sort of power creep (power hill, ladder? I need a better word for it) are their options.

Pick your poison, but you gotta pick to survive if you arent trying to make a story based game

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Well this isnt true

Im sure you had your favorite frame that you really wanted, lets say that frame was locked behind some hard mission that required you to have primed serration

Youd get damaged serration, that would allow you to ger the normal variant, and your normal would allow you to get primed, primed lets you get your favorite warframe

Thank you for Proving my Point....

My investment into Normal and Damaged Serration Didn't Matter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

FYI when I first Started Warframe.... I Deleted all my Flawed Mods precisely because I don't like it investing into Useless Garbage....

5 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Its weird to describe. Its power creep, but its not the 1 that invalidates things you actually want or should want i should say. It tries to invalidate things players can live without in order to keep them updating their builds.

It's Stupid... No matter which way you look at it.... But if you like having your Stuff be invalidated then You Do You, Homie ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

 

See with power gains, even if you dont like the content the update offers, you still are going to be grinding because what if that next update offers something you want badly? You want to make that possible month grind into a 3 month or 6 month? Most likely not, so you are going to make sure your power is kept up to date

There's no What ifs for me... I have public stated multiple Times that I vehemently Dislike New Things Getting Added to Warframe.... I love Content Draughts.... I like when I can be Sure that whatever it is I'm using and enjoy isn't going to Get Flushed away because DE decided to Universally Nerf an Entire Game Mechanic in a single Update.

This is Why I can Still go back and enjoy Something like Bastion/Hades or the Arkham Games but I got Fed up With Nioh and it's Unrelenting Grind and Flushing away all the Work I put into my Favourite Gear....

[Monolake]

Thats called progress, not power creep, and thats what people play loot/rpg games for - get better gear to fight stronger enemies who drop better gear. The problem with WF is that it was never coherently designed like that and you peaked power early and then had to grind for gear that could be subpar and thus not interesting, so you lose the satisfying sense of progress you got as a new player.

Then DE releases some new stuff that everyone can easily obtain but which is much stronger. Or overhauls the systems making player much stronger relatively (like they did dramatically curbing enemies scaling) - thats power creep.

And WF struggles to retain player despite all the constant updates because there is no more progress for veterans - you just collect fodder that you dont need, there is not much to achieve and strive for, no room to grow - even if you can become more powerful its all pointless since you dont need it, NO ENDGAME been a complaint since 2013.

Of course its a problem not exclusive to WF, all long-standing games have this issue and not may solve it successfully and have to constantly increase levelcap and add new activities for advanced players.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

6 hours ago, Monolake said:

Thats called progress, not power creep, and thats what people play loot/rpg games for - get better gear to fight stronger enemies who drop better gear. The problem with WF is that it was never coherently designed like that and you peaked power early and then had to grind for gear that could be subpar and thus not interesting, so you lose the satisfying sense of progress you got as a new player.

Then DE releases some new stuff that everyone can easily obtain but which is much stronger. Or overhauls the systems making player much stronger relatively (like they did dramatically curbing enemies scaling) - thats power creep.

And WF struggles to retain player despite all the constant updates because there is no more progress for veterans - you just collect fodder that you dont need, there is not much to achieve and strive for, no room to grow - even if you can become more powerful its all pointless since you dont need it, NO ENDGAME been a complaint since 2013.

Of course its a problem not exclusive to WF, all long-standing games have this issue and not may solve it successfully and have to constantly increase levelcap and add new activities for advanced players.

This sounds more like what i mean. Its been weird to describe what im asking for. I wanted to say progress but progress can have so many meanings, like story mission progress

Maybe power progress was the word combo i was looking for?

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-08-25 at 9:58 PM, Lutesque said:

My investment into Normal and Damaged Serration Didn't Matter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Perhaps i wasnt clear, 

You invest into a slow, broken down, used car so you can get to work. You make money at work enough to afford a fast and good working car.

You couldnt get a good car without investing into the broken one.

On 2022-08-25 at 9:58 PM, Lutesque said:

It's Stupid

Its what makes the world go round. Most people always on the hunt for a new fun experience to enjoy, who all get depressed when theyre doing too much of the exact same thing over and over. A need to mix things up

On 2022-08-25 at 9:58 PM, Lutesque said:

love Content Draughts

Well that is whats going to make this conversation pointless. If you arent trying to help most people have a good time, just yourself and a few friends, then we have to stop here

Unless you have witnessed most players feeling this way too, id go on to say that based on playerbase activity in warframe and other games that stop releaseing new content, "like people who reach the end of single player games", that its not helping to improve the state of the game. Rather it does what happens to most single player games who fall off on content, people go elsewhere for long periods of time.