Magistar Incarnon Genesis - What does "Fall Off" refer to?

[(XBOX)kr1sPYDonuts]

I recently obtained the Incarnon Gensis for Magistar and saw that the perk Crushing Verdict for its second evolution increases Fall Off by 100%  while a channel ability is active. Does anyone know what this means? Many thanks in advance.

[AegidiusF]

Official confirmation about Fall off on Incarnon Buffs : it refers to follow-through damage and the text will be changed for better clarity.

 

[Tiltskillet]

47 minutes ago, Lotus-123 said:

I've seen all sorts of opinions about what the "Fall Off" perk means. Is it only slam attacks, or something about 'follow through' when your range can affect multiple targets, or is it a bonus that applies to your primary/secondary AoE effect?

Like Magistar, it's actually a Follow Through modifier, effectively disabling the mechanic.  Here's an old reference video demo for Follow Through, note how when the weapon strikes two targets, the second one gets reduced damage. 

https://giant.gfycat.com/ActiveSafeIcelandichorse.webm

For every consecutive target, the damage penalty gets applied again.  Nami Solo normally has 0.7 FT.    If a swing does 1000 damage...

First target: 1000

2nd: 700

3rd:  490 (0.7 * 0.7)

4th: 340 (0.7 * 0.7 * 0.7) etc.

In horde killing situations having this penalty eliminated on a weapon is extremely valuable.  Especially on a weapon with 5.5 range in Incarnon form before mods are slotted.  Without that perk, the extra range is great, but more for combo generation and status application than for damage.  With the perk it's on another level.

That being said, I use the other two perks more often, mainly because I like mixing in ranged weapon use and am not comfortable with force equipping constantly.

1 hour ago, Lotus-123 said:

The benefits of Incarnon mode on this particular weapon aren't significant enough for me to know that it is active. I see the combo count get reset, but the weapon is still just 'good' not 'amazing'.

Can I ask what does qualify as amazing melee weapons to you?  It's not a melee-ranged hybrid, but out of the pure melee weapons I think it's really, really good.

[Zakkhar]

3 hours ago, Lotus-123 said:

So you've got to do a bunch of light attacks, then start the heavy attacks once you hit 6x

Not really. Have you tried slam spam?

3 hours ago, Lotus-123 said:

incarnon mode for melee weapons isn't clearly indicated in the hud, and doesn't appear to work at all in Duviri

It is not indicated when its active, but it is indicated when it not active when you are above x6 treshhold. Other options of recognition is attempting to use any special move the weapon in incarnon mode may have. Nami mostly increases range, so it is hard to check for. It works in Duviri just fine, was using Furax Wraith and Sancti Magistar.

3 hours ago, Lotus-123 said:

I probably need to remap the heavy attack key because my middle mouse button/wheel is a lot slower than the left mouse button

I broke my scroll soon after Penant/Reaper Prime became a thing. Rebound it to my side button in the Mouse Setup. This way I can still used Mouse3 in other games.

Have in mind there is setting to change repeated buttons presses from TAP to HOLD. Have not tested it yet, but may be a good idea for stuff like Atlas/Khora.

[hyzmarca]

2 hours ago, Lotus-123 said:

Tried your suggested mods to run a heavy attack build with Nami Solo. With a slight modification:

• Faction mods may provide the best damage, but I personally hate the hassle of switching mods or loadouts for every mission. So, I used Killing Blow instead of your suggested Smite mod
• faction mods are only slightly more helpful in duviri than kubrow and kavat mods (which are useless in duviri)

It's not horrible, but there are several reasons why I don't see this weapon as replacing my favorite melee weapons.

1. Incarnon mode activation requires 6x combo - which is harder to achieve without the mods that increase combo count chance. So you've got to do a bunch of light attacks, then start the heavy attacks once you hit 6x
2. incarnon mode for melee weapons isn't clearly indicated in the hud, and doesn't appear to work at all in Duviri
3. With a light attack build, the game play feels like you're always swinging, building up combo count damage multipliers. Heavy attacks feel more like I'm taking a deep breath, lunging forward with a wild swing, and then pausing to catch my balance. Sure, the damage is pretty good, but it feels like I'm just standing there before and after my swing, waiting for someone to hit me
4. I probably need to remap the heavy attack key because my middle mouse button/wheel is a lot slower than the left mouse button

Smite Corrupted is pretty good in Circuit,  because all the enemies you care about there are  Corrupted,  but I understand.  I too can't be bothered to run faction mods.

Quickening can help with building up combo,  as well as attack speed.    It might be a better choice than Killing Blow. 40% faster attacks and 20% more combo per attack. 

But I agree that I wouldn't main Nami Solo.   

[Tiltskillet]

29 minutes ago, Lotus-123 said:

Tried your suggested mods to run a heavy attack build with Nami Solo. With a slight modification:

I'd make some changes to that build too.  I'd either go pure slash and use a primer for viral, or underclocked Virulent Scourge / Vicious Frost.   Condition Overload rather than Sacrificial Pressure.  Carnis Mandible if possible.  Definitely no heat mod.  And the balanced status/crit Evo.  Reason being that Machete heavy attack forced bleeds are unimpressive, but Nami Solo especially can be very good at natural bleeds.  To get the most out of that though, it has to be built for status and slash weighting. 

All that said, I don't particularly enjoy Heavy Attack builds except with Kullervo, and his get built very differently.

edit:

25 minutes ago, Lotus-123 said:

I didn't intend to ask so many questions about Nami Solo in this thread about the Magistar. I'll stop now and try to avoid sidetracking conversations in the future.

 

Oops.

[Lotus-123]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

There was a sub-conversation happening about Nami Solo, which is what prompted my question to Lotus-123.

Sorry about that. I didn't intend to ask so many questions about Nami Solo in this thread about the Magistar. I'll stop now and try to avoid sidetracking conversations in the future.

[Lotus-123]

4 hours ago, hyzmarca said:

Nami is a machete,  so its heavy attacks have guarenteed slash procs.   

Tried your suggested mods to run a heavy attack build with Nami Solo. With a slight modification:

• Faction mods may provide the best damage, but I personally hate the hassle of switching mods or loadouts for every mission. So, I used Killing Blow instead of your suggested Smite mod
• faction mods are only slightly more helpful in duviri than kubrow and kavat mods (which are useless in duviri)

It's not horrible, but there are several reasons why I don't see this weapon as replacing my favorite melee weapons.

1. Incarnon mode activation requires 6x combo - which is harder to achieve without the mods that increase combo count chance. So you've got to do a bunch of light attacks, then start the heavy attacks once you hit 6x
2. incarnon mode for melee weapons isn't clearly indicated in the hud, and doesn't appear to work at all in Duviri
3. With a light attack build, the game play feels like you're always swinging, building up combo count damage multipliers. Heavy attacks feel more like I'm taking a deep breath, lunging forward with a wild swing, and then pausing to catch my balance. Sure, the damage is pretty good, but it feels like I'm just standing there before and after my swing, waiting for someone to hit me
4. I probably need to remap the heavy attack key because my middle mouse button/wheel is a lot slower than the left mouse button

[Tiltskillet]

24 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It is above average, far from good, and even further from real good.

1. 80% Impact. Why have Impact and use evolution that can proc Slash on impact if you can have Slash in the first place. Notice that top meta weapons have high weighted Slash.
2. Stance. Low dps (420-500) no forced Slashes. And pretty lenghty duration (4,9s on neutral combo to read final swing is a nono). Again. Forced Impacts and Knockdowns are meh, espcially considering Knockdowns do not work on the boss enemies at all. Lots of slams makes it counter productive because enemies get yeeted away instead of staying grouped. Wide swings that have no point due to base 0,4 FT. The FT Evolution is unusable on most frames due to Channeling required.
3. It has aspeed of 1, but it is really slow, compared to other 2handend weapon classes with 1 animation speed (polearms, 2handed nikanas, staves, tonfas, even heavy blades)
4. 240 base damage is pretty low for 1 aspeed sluggish weapon.
5. Only nice thing is the self and group healing. 

That was a very confusing response until I realized you assumed naturally enough we were talking about Magistar.  :P  There was a sub-conversation happening about Nami Solo, which is what prompted my question to Lotus-123.

4 hours ago, hyzmarca said:

Nami is a machete,  so its heavy attacks have guarenteed slash procs.     Heavy attack windup speed is by far the best choice because of the way it stacks with windup speed mods.

I'll just point out that Machete heavy guaranteed bleeds are extremely weak compared to other options.  Only a single 1.5x, whereas the classic heavy forced slash melees are getting a total of 9 or 10x, or even 12x.  Machetes can be built for effective heavy slash, but its going to be through natural procs. 

[Zakkhar]

On 2023-07-16 at 6:50 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Can I ask what does qualify as amazing melee weapons to you?  It's not a melee-ranged hybrid, but out of the pure melee weapons I think it's really, really good.

It is above average, far from good, and even further from real good.

1. 80% Impact. Why have Impact and use evolution that can proc Slash on impact if you can have Slash in the first place. Notice that top meta weapons have high weighted Slash.
2. Stance. Low dps (420-500) no forced Slashes. And pretty lenghty duration (4,9s on neutral combo to read final swing is a nono). Again. Forced Impacts and Knockdowns are meh, espcially considering Knockdowns do not work on the boss enemies at all. Lots of slams makes it counter productive because enemies get yeeted away instead of staying grouped. Wide swings that have no point due to base 0,4 FT. The FT Evolution is unusable on most frames due to Channeling required.
3. It has aspeed of 1, but it is really slow, compared to other 2handend weapon classes with 1 animation speed (polearms, 2handed nikanas, staves, tonfas, even heavy blades)
4. 240 base damage is pretty low for 1 aspeed sluggish weapon.
5. Only nice thing is the self and group healing. 

Compare it to good weapon (not amazing) also from Syndicate: Telos Bolace

1. 85% puncture, very bad.
2. Tonfa stance is very good, swift & has a lot of muliple hits with forced slash. Telos Boltace FT is 0,6 so 50% higher than base S.Magistar. Base range is pretty much the same.
3. Aspeed of 1,08 but due to the animation is feels much more fluent than sluggish hammers.
4. 210 base damage with faster swings and multiple hits per swing.
5. Gimmick switches between 14 meter radius grouping on Slide & force Lifted on Slide AND provides 20% to Manouvers.

As for Amazing pure melee weapons (Innodem, Lesion, Orthos Prime, Guandao P, Dual Keres P, Gram P, Reaper P, Pennant, Nikana P, Kronen P, Nami Skyla P, Pangolin P). Did not count Zaws, Glaives, Gunblades and stuff that can hurl projectiles (eg. Quassus). Innodem can technically hurl projectiles but they are a fraction of its dps.

[hyzmarca]

On 2023-07-16 at 9:09 AM, Lotus-123 said:

I appreciate the testing done by Tiltskillet. Looking at the Evolution III options for Nami Solo, I've gotta say that I'm not impressed that any of these choices are all that useful.

• increase fall off by 60% (whatever this means, it might not be working)
• 50% heavy attack wind up (heavy attack has a long animation, and you're frequently facing the wrong way at the end of the attack)
• +6 seconds of combo duration - might be the best choice

I've heard that a lot of players like the incarnon weapons - not me. I can't imagine that any real soldier would want to trust their life to a weapon that would only be powerful after you performed some trick with it, and then would suddenly revert to a weak weapon while you're in the midst of a fight.

in my opinion, melee incanon weapons have an activation problem. When you get the combo count up, and try to switch to incarnon mode, about half of the time the weapon simply does a heavy attack, resetting combo counter, and you still don't have incarnon capabilities

Nami is a machete,  so its heavy attacks have guarenteed slash procs.     Heavy attack windup speed is by far the best choice because of the way it stacks with windup speed mods.  It lowers the base windup speed.   

Take the crit evolution,   use Sacrficial set, amalgam organ shatter, , corrupt charge, and viral 60/60s.      You're getting guaranteed slash with 234% crit chance, guaranteed 2x heavy attack multiplier, and a 55% status chance that has a good shot at applying viral.   And enough room for 2 more mods. I suggest Primed Reach and a Smite mod.   60/60 heat to bump up the status chance is also a good option.  

[Tiltskillet]

43 minutes ago, Lotus-123 said:

You guys are welcome to your own opinions, but in my experience with those weapons they're weak without Incarnon activated.

Even Felarx?

 

[Lotus-123]

You guys are welcome to your own opinions, but in my experience with those weapons they're weak without Incarnon activated. I wouldn't trust them in a Steel Path battle when they're likely to drop out of power mode and into pea-shooter mode.

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Felarx, Strun, Atomos & Latron strongly disagree.

I'd add Lex and Boltor, out of the ones I've used. 

Even Phenmor is great in normal mode if one enjoys the DMR thing.  Even better as a bullet hose obviously, but Devouring Attrition is just silly either way.

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Lotus-123 said:

However, when it comes to primary and secondary weapons I've got to disagree. They're powerful when you've managed to trigger incarnon mode. They're pea-shooters without Incarnon mode.

Felarx, Strun, Atomos & Latron strongly disagree.

[Tiltskillet]

9 minutes ago, Lotus-123 said:

Thanks for the explanation and video demonstration. I think I'm beginning to understand.

The Praedos is pretty amazing in Incarnon mode - but maybe it just seems that way because it's so weak without Incarnon. My current favorite melee is a Sepfahn with Exodia Force and a riven. It doesn't have Incarnon powers, but it is consistent. I can count on it.

I think the Zariman melees, are a couple of notches better, but still in the same ballpark.  Praedos derives a lot of its advantage from the absurd imbalances in weapon stances.

Exodia allows Zaws to do some things that non-Zaws just can't, no doubt.  There is nothing equivalent to Force with the right set up.

[Lotus-123]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

it's actually a Follow Through modifie

Thanks for the explanation and video demonstration. I think I'm beginning to understand.

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

what does qualify as amazing melee weapons

The Praedos is pretty amazing in Incarnon mode - but maybe it just seems that way because it's so weak without Incarnon. My current favorite melee is a Sepfahn with Exodia Force and a riven. It doesn't have Incarnon powers, but it is consistent. I can count on it.

[Lotus-123]

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

does not revert to weak weapon at all

maybe that can be said about the Nami Solo. I can't be sure since I haven't seen much improvement with Incarnon mode on that weapon. However, when it comes to primary and secondary weapons I've got to disagree. They're powerful when you've managed to trigger incarnon mode. They're pea-shooters without Incarnon mode.

[Zakkhar]

3 hours ago, Lotus-123 said:

I can't imagine that any real soldier would want to trust their life to a weapon that would only be powerful after you performed some trick with it, and then would suddenly revert to a weak weapon while you're in the midst of a fight.

Except it does not revert to weak weapon at all. Passive evolutions work for both Incarnon and Normal form. There are plenty of Genesis Incarnon that have both forms equally usefull Incanonon being kinda of sidegrade to normal form instead of super powerful buff.

 

[Lotus-123]

25 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

the "Fall Off" perk, which is amazing...as long as one doesn't mind the condition.

I've seen all sorts of opinions about what the "Fall Off" perk means. Is it only slam attacks, or something about 'follow through' when your range can affect multiple targets, or is it a bonus that applies to your primary/secondary AoE effect?

30 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Nami Solo because I know it best.

I'd call it very good or better all the time.  It just gets even better in Incarnon mode and with full combo.

Maybe this is part of the reason that my attempts to activate incarnon mode are failing. The benefits of Incarnon mode on this particular weapon aren't significant enough for me to know that it is active. I see the combo count get reset, but the weapon is still just 'good' not 'amazing'.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Lotus-123 said:

On 2023-05-23 at 10:20 AM, Tiltskillet said:

Nami Solo and its "fall off"

I appreciate the testing done by Tiltskillet. Looking at the Evolution III options for Nami Solo, I've gotta say that I'm not impressed that any of these choices are all that useful.

• increase fall off by 60% (whatever this means, it might not be working)
• 50% heavy attack wind up (heavy attack has a long animation, and you're frequently facing the wrong way at the end of the attack)
• +6 seconds of combo duration - might be the best choice

That testing was pre-Kullervo.  Newer testing is here: 

 

Personally I find all three are at least useful.  The exception is the "Fall Off" perk, which is amazing...as long as one doesn't mind the condition.

1 hour ago, Lotus-123 said:

I've heard that a lot of players like the incarnon weapons - not me. I can't imagine that any real soldier would want to trust their life to a weapon that would only be powerful after you performed some trick with it, and then would suddenly revert to a weak weapon while you're in the midst of a fight.

I'll focus on Nami Solo because I know it best.

I'd call it very good or better all the time.  It just gets even better in Incarnon mode and with full combo.  The loss of combo to activate Incarnon is only a temporary setback, one that Incarnon Nami Solo can make very short with its range.

Personally I find the dynamic fun.  YMMV.

1 hour ago, Lotus-123 said:

in my opinion, melee incanon weapons have an activation problem. When you get the combo count up, and try to switch to incarnon mode, about half of the time the weapon simply does a heavy attack, resetting combo counter, and you still don't have incarnon capabilities

I don't think I've experienced this except in a very few cases that I feel like were probably my user error.  Either activating too late, after my combo had decreased, or hearing the Incarnon eligibility sound of a different weapon and thinking it was my melee.

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

And it seems that the one that used to require "melee only" Is working when you change to melee, no matter if you have ranged weapons equipped. 

I think all the "melee only" perks were changed to "melee [force] equipped", but I've heard  before they don't all work properly.  Nami does now, but it's the only one I've tested.

[AegidiusF]

Le 23/05/2023 à 19:20, Tiltskillet a dit :

That is very clear!  👍

edit:

RE: Nami Solo and its "fall off" with nothing but melee equipped perk.  I'd  tested it yesterday, first to verify it wasn't follow through, and then to see if it was affecting regular slam fall-off.  It wasn't affecting follow through, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't affecting slams.  I just re-verified it wasn't affecting follow through to be sure.  Still pretty sure about slam fall-off not working either, but that's a little harder to test.  (And I don't care enough about slam fall-off to put much time into it.)

FWIW I tested follow through both in regular form and Incarnon, with nothing but melee equipped and in melee mode.  I also did one test where I unequipped everthing but melee outside the Sim and then did the test.  In all cases the follow through remained 70%.

It belongs in a bug report, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention here. 

Yesterday, I noticed that, for Magistar Incarnon confitional perks were active all the time, even with no channeling ability active. And it seems that the one that used to require "melee only" Is working when you change to melee, no matter if you have ranged weapons equipped. 

Very weird. 

[Lotus-123]

On 2023-05-23 at 1:20 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Nami Solo and its "fall off"

I appreciate the testing done by Tiltskillet. Looking at the Evolution III options for Nami Solo, I've gotta say that I'm not impressed that any of these choices are all that useful.

• increase fall off by 60% (whatever this means, it might not be working)
• 50% heavy attack wind up (heavy attack has a long animation, and you're frequently facing the wrong way at the end of the attack)
• +6 seconds of combo duration - might be the best choice

I've heard that a lot of players like the incarnon weapons - not me. I can't imagine that any real soldier would want to trust their life to a weapon that would only be powerful after you performed some trick with it, and then would suddenly revert to a weak weapon while you're in the midst of a fight.

in my opinion, melee incanon weapons have an activation problem. When you get the combo count up, and try to switch to incarnon mode, about half of the time the weapon simply does a heavy attack, resetting combo counter, and you still don't have incarnon capabilities

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Test video (posted on the Wiki) :

That is very clear!  👍

edit:

RE: Nami Solo and its "fall off" with nothing but melee equipped perk.  I'd  tested it yesterday, first to verify it wasn't follow through, and then to see if it was affecting regular slam fall-off.  It wasn't affecting follow through, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't affecting slams.  I just re-verified it wasn't affecting follow through to be sure.  Still pretty sure about slam fall-off not working either, but that's a little harder to test.  (And I don't care enough about slam fall-off to put much time into it.)

FWIW I tested follow through both in regular form and Incarnon, with nothing but melee equipped and in melee mode.  I also did one test where I unequipped everthing but melee outside the Sim and then did the test.  In all cases the follow through remained 70%.

It belongs in a bug report, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention here. 

[AegidiusF]

Apparently, it refers to the Follow through and not to the slam damage. After some tests (specially by IceBen), the Wiki updated the information :

Citation

 

Evolution II: Complete a Solo Mission with the Incarnon weapon equipped.

• Perk 1: Crushing Verdict: Increase Damage by +100 (+20 Sancti Magistar). With channeled ability active: Increase Follow Through by +100% (0.4 -> 0.8).

 

My version of Warframe is French and I saw no change on the in game text for the "Crushing Veredict" perk. Has it changed on the English version ?

 

Test video (posted on the Wiki by IceBen) :

[King-Baconbeard]

Anyone noticed it yeets enemies like Sauron in Incarnon form haha