"War"frame or "Farm"frame

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Duviri was shown off as having a tactical melee engagement for the player to enjoy, but when you go and try this, it becomes clear that the system isn't well balanced without decrees, you're expected to run it many times and stacking decrees substantially reduces the risk involved in losing rewards. Players are virtually encouraged to do this and bypass the showcased design. 

I agree with your entire post except this part: I've found that dueling Dax soldiers without any decrees is actually very well-balanced. The blocking mechanic feels like trying to pull my arms off old flypaper, but it's effective when it actually happens. Heavy attacks need more reach (the Azothane in general needs more reach) but their risk reward system works pretty well. Reckless play gets you punished but staggerlocking isn't inescapable, your abilities all work great with cooldown to prevent spam, your gun can whittle down enemies without being overpowered and rewards headshots... Honestly I wish decrees were restricted to Circuit mode (I loathe Steel Path and decrees are the only thing keeping it tolerable) because Drifter combat is pretty good when you aren't spamming all the +damage decrees to kill enemies in one hit

[cute_moth.npc]

12 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I agree with your entire post except this part: I've found that dueling Dax soldiers without any decrees is actually very well-balanced. The blocking mechanic feels like trying to pull my arms off old flypaper, but it's effective when it actually happens. Heavy attacks need more reach (the Azothane in general needs more reach) but their risk reward system works pretty well. Reckless play gets you punished but staggerlocking isn't inescapable, your abilities all work great with cooldown to prevent spam, your gun can whittle down enemies without being overpowered and rewards headshots... Honestly I wish decrees were restricted to Circuit mode (I loathe Steel Path and decrees are the only thing keeping it tolerable) because Drifter combat is pretty good when you aren't spamming all the +damage decrees to kill enemies in one hit

It's not the concept of the decrees that really bothers me, it's just that it's kind of obviously just way out of whack.

The decrees grow exponentially.

Circuit grows exponentially.

The decrees fit the circuit.

Duviri does not grow exponentially. Actually it doesn't grow that much at all.

The results are predictable. It only takes a couple depending on which ones you get and the gameplay is vaporized..

They kind of needed one set of decrees tuned for Duviri and one for Circuit..

I felt like things like "free the prisoners" were utterly broken without decree stacking. When I tried it, I had to weed enemy spawns until only archers were left and then kite them out of the bubble in order to progress the meter.. 

Aside from whether or not it feels good, the other question is: do you feel encouraged to do decreeless runs and enjoy that combat based on how the mode and rewards are structured, or do you feel compelled to power up and power through the mode when it comes down to actually getting the rewards?

Personally, I kind of feel that this design is definitely not encouraging playing like that.

Edited May 23, 2023 by cute_moth.npc

[Felsagger]

10 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Even if you only want to look at online PC games that have a client, you can look at the MMORPG genre and find that they have everything you listed in one game. Chinese/Korean Shooters also have the same thing, and they are even worse considering these are generally pvp games. The same was actually true for the racing [cars] genre. These are games that existed during the 2000s, before Warframe.

I'm actually unsure, did you actually think free to play games as a service started in the 2010s? They popped up in the late 90s/early 2000s with most of them from Korea. I, unfortunately, had the pleasure of mostly only being able to play f2p games as a kid/teen which means I've played hundreds of Korean and Chinese online games from different genres and combat types; playing some that actually never made it to the West in an era where you couldn't just whip out your phone and have it easily translate everything to English.

Time gates, rng, cosmetics and it all being monetized was the standard. Some of them even used p2p connections for both pve and pvp.

From the 2000s to Warframe's release there was nothing that changed, just the terminology did. There are recent things games have that may seem new, but it really isn't. Take the 'battle pass' craze that's been going on in recent years and how just about all online games across every genre has them... well they aren't actually any different to 'optional subscriptions' that some free to play games had before.  In either case for most games it's just extra rewards for money on a monthly or near monthly basis. They just happen to be worse and less rewarding, see LoL and their 'events' for a massively downgraded equivalent of an optional-sub or 'battle pass'. Leave it to a purely pvp game to come up with the grindiest events possible that put even deliberately grindy Korean games to shame.

I am not Chinese or Korean. I don't have access to these product since I never lived in China or South Korea. You have better ideas about games that used a similar approach. 

As far as I know, no game resembles Warframe. I haven't seen a similar product with the attributes found in Warframe. 

Side note: I would like to know the name of these shooters. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Felsagger

[Yamazuki]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

I am not Chinese or Korean. I don't have access to these product since I never lived in China or South Korea. You have better ideas about games that used a similar approach. 

Korean and Chinese games were released for the West [which my post said] in English/Portuguese/Spanish/French/German/Russian since the 2000s by companies such as AG, ijji, WZ, Nexon, etc. It isn't any different to what Amazon does now with taking Korean and Japanese games and having them localized for the West.

Anyone could have played any of those games as they had servers in the either the US or Europe, and sometimes both for their NA and EU releases. FOr non-Western markets SEA often times got servers as did SA for countries such as Brazil.

We even have games that are popular in the West that come from Japan, and the studio and associated games you mention a lot are Japanese and not Western. It is simply people discard most Asian games that are not Japanese in nature. How many people even know what Lineage is? Released early 2000s, multiple releases including mobile games and we're getting Throne and Liberty published by Amazon which is essentially Lineage 3 with the name changed.

8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Side note: I would like to know the name of these shooters. 

Unfortunately I can not remember the names of every game I played. The one Korean shooter I can recall the name of does not tick all the boxes you mentioned. Due to being purely pvp it didn't have the resource grind, just a daily time gate for non-spenders and monetized rng [S4 League]. Although gameplay wise, it was one of the shooters to have non-standard movement since you could jump around off walls, or spam it to dodge and pull out your melee to cc enemies since for non-whales melee weapons had bad dps.

8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

As far as I know, no game resembles Warframe. I haven't seen a similar product with the attributes found in Warframe. 

We're not discussing the vague thing such as Warframe's attributes. We were specifically discussing Warframe's monetization points that you listed and how it existed before Warfame.

Quote

DE way of making money is focused on time gates shortcuts, resource collection short cuts, RNG or pachinko evasion shortcuts, and gear checks power creeping devices. Among other strategies that involve ROI or return of investments. 

Adding time gates and selling the bypass, cosmetics for sale, layers of rng with monetized bypasses, or selling resources and boosters all in one game happened before Warframe happen to include them all. This was all very common for the MMORPG genre and any grind based game. Naturally, they all had stat checks and power creep is a main thing for pve games. Just to illustrate how important it was for devs to encourage spending on ROI, even if you were skilled and could clear content with mid tier gear, you would be punished instead of rewarded as I've seen games tie rewards to meeting a gear score [or what ever each game called it] check which meant you were forced to upgrade your gear even if you didn't need to. Of course this is rare, because generally you'll just instantly die and deal no damage in most games forcing the upgrade that way.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Felsagger said:

As far as I know, no game resembles Warframe. I haven't seen a similar product with the attributes found in Warframe. 

If you move the goal post further the universe next door might end up with a cosmic event.

As to the rest @Yamazukiexplained it well.

edit: To add to it. DE made the whole thing better, since they atleast considered the drawbacks of things like peer-to-peer, so stayed clear of competative PvP and limited co-op to be an option only, but not a requirement. Some of the old games were competative pvp games, including shooters. And PvE was often promoted to be co-op by giving additional loot, so you had to put up with shoddy peer-to-peer or feel very unrewarded. Hence why I stuck to actual MMOs back then with dedicated servers etc. Then I found gems like Marvel Heroes and later down the line PoE and WF. All of which have also made it hard to enjoy "normal" games without scrutinizing them in comparison to what free games can pull off.

edit2: I recall what my friend said when we played Outriders, which was a good game at that. "Imagine paying this much for a game when something like Warframe is free". And that was from a person that no longer plays WF even, nor played it at the time. And this is also something that has come up regarding other games (good games at that), where friends mentioned the cost for some games and bring up titles like Marvel Heroes, PoE or Warframe in the same sense my friend did regarding Outriders. 

Which is something I think many people ignore when comparing WF to other games, that WF is bloody free yet has such a high standard even among titles you pay (alot) for.

Edited May 24, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you move the goal post further the universe next door might end up with a cosmic event.

As to the rest @Yamazukiexplained it well.

Don't judge people with your own faults. Fix your posting habits and learn to accept when you are wrong. 

The Swedish team Goalie who moves the goal posts in a championship is YOU. 

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: To add to it. DE made the whole thing better, since they atleast considered the drawbacks of things like peer-to-peer, so stayed clear of competative PvP and limited co-op to be an option only, but not a requirement. Some of the old games were competative pvp games, including shooters. And PvE was often promoted to be co-op by giving additional loot, so you had to put up with shoddy peer-to-peer or feel very unrewarded. Hence why I stuck to actual MMOs back then with dedicated servers etc. Then I found gems like Marvel Heroes and later down the line PoE and WF. All of which have also made it hard to enjoy "normal" games without scrutinizing them in comparison to what free games can pull off.

edit2: I recall what my friend said when we played Outriders, which was a good game at that. "Imagine paying this much for a game when something like Warframe is free". And that was from a person that no longer plays WF even, nor played it at the time. And this is also something that has come up regarding other games (good games at that), where friends mentioned the cost for some games and bring up titles like Marvel Heroes, PoE or Warframe in the same sense my friend did regarding Outriders. 

Which is something I think many people ignore when comparing WF to other games, that WF is bloody free yet has such a high standard even among titles you pay (alot) for.

I prefer a top quality game of 70 dollars such as Horizon Forbidden West + Burning Shores than a game that postpone gratifications throughout long hours of repeated farming. 

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Korean and Chinese games were released for the West [which my post said] in English/Portuguese/Spanish/French/German/Russian since the 2000s by companies such as AG, ijji, WZ, Nexon, etc. It isn't any different to what Amazon does now with taking Korean and Japanese games and having them localized for the West.

Anyone could have played any of those games as they had servers in the either the US or Europe, and sometimes both for their NA and EU releases. FOr non-Western markets SEA often times got servers as did SA for countries such as Brazil.

We even have games that are popular in the West that come from Japan, and the studio and associated games you mention a lot are Japanese and not Western. It is simply people discard most Asian games that are not Japanese in nature. How many people even know what Lineage is? Released early 2000s, multiple releases including mobile games and we're getting Throne and Liberty published by Amazon which is essentially Lineage 3 with the name changed.

Unfortunately I can not remember the names of every game I played. 

 

Then I can't see the resemblances with any of these products and Warframe. Taking your word for it is not enough for a conversation. I can't say anything. 

4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Adding time gates and selling the bypass, cosmetics for sale, layers of rng with monetized bypasses, or selling resources and boosters all in one game happened before

Which games? 

4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Warframe happen to include them all.

That's exactly my point. You got that right. The novelty of using all these techniques in one product made Warframe what it is now. DE proposed a particular GAAS F2P Peer to Peer market. DE defined their own rules for such genre, a genre they invented. 

4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

This was all very common for the MMORPG genre and any grind based game.

True but Warframe IS NOT a MMORPG in the strict sense. 

4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Naturally, they all had stat checks and power creep is a main thing for pve games. Just to illustrate how important it was for devs to encourage spending on ROI, even if you were skilled and could clear content with mid tier gear, you would be punished instead of rewarded as I've seen games tie rewards to meeting a gear score [or what ever each game called it] check which meant you were forced to upgrade your gear even if you didn't need to. Of course this is rare, because generally you'll just instantly die and deal no damage in most games forcing the upgrade that way.

People who spent 12 collecting prime pieces or undusting relics in a single run are banned for a week in trade chat or more. Automatic bots hand out these bans over such players. If the player challenges the decision, then if DE wants, the developer could see the particularities of such case and administer the severity of the infraction. 

 

Yes, developers are always going to defend their ROI. 

[SneakyErvin]

48 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Don't judge people with your own faults. Fix your posting habits and learn to accept when you are wrong. 

I prefer a top quality game of 70 dollars such as Horizon Forbidden West + Burning Shores than a game that postpone gratifications throughout long hours of repeated farming. 

It isnt judging when you straight up do it black on white or white on black.

Completely different genres and purposes though. I've gotten literally thousands of hours out of WF so the bang for my buck has been of great return compared to most other games, including B2P and sub based GAAS games. I'm honestly not sure why you as someone who dislikes farming even plays a GAAS game, not when you complain over WF, which is one of the most generous and easy farms on the western market. It might look like a massive haul for new players, but it is also a game with 10 years worth of content and non-linear progression, so you dont need to grab everything all at once.

Like I've said before, I dont play survival games or city builders since I dont enjoy them. At the same time I dont sit and complain on survival game or city builder forums that the gameplay loop is horrible and should change into something else, nor do I compare them to a completely unrelated game genre and loop model. I found the one survival game I like which is Valheim, since it is set in a cool world and has some neat combat in it aswell, but I wouldnt want to force Valheim on other survival players in other games since they play those because they arent Valheim. But here you sit and want WF to be a completely different game, because what you rage over arent small things, they are quite genre defining things.

[Felsagger]

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt judging when you straight up do it black on white or white on black.

I know how you think. You will not accept when you are wrong even if people proves why you are wrong. I can accept when I am wrong. learn and amend my way of thinking. 

 

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Completely different genres and purposes though. I've gotten literally thousands of hours out of WF so the bang for my buck has been of great return compared to most other games, including B2P and sub based GAAS games. I'm honestly not sure why you as someone who dislikes farming even plays a GAAS game, not when you complain over WF, which is one of the most generous and easy farms on the western market. It might look like a massive haul for new players, but it is also a game with 10 years worth of content and non-linear progression, so you dont need to grab everything all at once.

When you have responsibilities, gaming becomes a luxury. You can't spend a lot of time pressing keys for long hours in front of a TV screen. 

 

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

At the same time I dont sit and complain on survival game or city builder forums that the gameplay loop is horrible and should change into something else, nor do I compare them to a completely unrelated game genre and loop model. I found the one survival game I like which is Valheim, since it is set in a cool world and has some neat combat in it aswell, but I wouldnt want to force Valheim on other survival players in other games since they play those because they arent Valheim. But here you sit and want WF to be a completely different game, because what you rage over arent small things, they are quite genre defining things.

You do with your time the best out of it. 

Other people decides what to type on the board despite if you like it or not. You do not have control over that. 

[TARINunit9]

On 2023-05-23 at 2:35 PM, cute_moth.npc said:

Aside from whether or not it feels good, the other question is: do you feel encouraged to do decreeless runs and enjoy that combat based on how the mode and rewards are structured, or do you feel compelled to power up and power through the mode when it comes down to actually getting the rewards?

I decided to put this to the test last night: I would only buy decrees that are activated by rolling (can't do a true decree-less run because of OCD). And the combat was still pretty good! Not too slow and sloggy that I was tempted to start looking for +damage decrees, not too easy that the content became boring. It was an enjoyable way to spend a half hour getting 10 more of those freaking pathos clamps that we all need like 300 of >.> And it's that last part that we are in agreement on: yeah, the sheer level of grind does make me want to cheese things faster to grind faster. But after doing the decree-less run, stacking +damage decrees doesn't feel like the ticket to grinding faster anymore

Edited May 24, 2023 by TARINunit9

[cute_moth.npc]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I decided to put this to the test last night: I would only buy decrees that are activated by rolling (can't do a true decree-less run because of OCD). And the combat was still pretty good! Not too slow and sloggy that I was tempted to start looking for +damage decrees, not too easy that the content became boring. It was an enjoyable way to spend a half hour getting 10 more of those freaking pathos clamps that we all need like 300 of >.> And it's that last part that we are in agreement on: yeah, the sheer level of grind does make me want to cheese things faster to grind faster. But after doing the decree-less run, stacking +damage decrees doesn't feel like the ticket to grinding faster anymore

That's fair. I do really think they're getting better at telegraphing enemy attacks and that the A.I. is mercifully better than what got shown in the "hammer video".. The controls annoy me, and on steel path some of the bounties feel off tune. I don't like it that much, but I do respect that you do. 

Do you think there's a way they can balance the rewards structure so that you're able to enjoy the mode more often without feeling pushed to cheese it?

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Felsagger said:

I know how you think. You will not accept when you are wrong even if people proves why you are wrong. I can accept when I am wrong. learn and amend my way of thinking. 

 

When you have responsibilities, gaming becomes a luxury. You can't spend a lot of time pressing keys for long hours in front of a TV screen. 

 

You do with your time the best out of it. 

Other people decides what to type on the board despite if you like it or not. You do not have control over that. 

But you arent right, since what you present is an opinion. And a wrong opinion at that regarding the genre you complain so heavily about.

And if you have responsibilities WF is the perfect game, since nothing you need to do takes time. We are talking minimal time investment over the course of a week to knock everything out. And with the variety of items you only need to grab the few you like in order to be "competative". Even when I've been in the most time consuming and heavy situations in life I've still had time to actually sit down and do the minimal "needed" tasks in WF, and also get to stress down through it. Which was practically 3 hours total over the course of a week. And if you cannot fit in 3 hours over 7 days you likely shouldnt be near GAAS games to begin with. Heck you likely shouldnt even play one-and-done game either if they require a large amount of hours to complete in order to experience it all. Like heavy RPGs such as the Witcher series or Divinity, games that can take hundreds of hours for a single play through.

No idea what my time has to do with what you bolded. But you are correct, other people decide what they want to post, that doesnt mean it has any validity in the end, or that it looks even remotely related to the discussion at hand. As you posting Horizon videos over and over on the forum for a GAAS looter shooter. You are practically posting Bieber videos on a Cannibal Corpse board and demanding Cannibal Corpse should sound like Bieber.

[Felsagger]

22 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you arent right, since what you present is an opinion. And a wrong opinion at that regarding the genre you complain so heavily about.

Opinions can't be wrong. They are opinions. 

Facts can be wrong or right. 

There is a difference. 

22 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And if you have responsibilities WF is the perfect game, since nothing you need to do takes time. We are talking minimal time investment over the course of a week to knock everything out. And with the variety of items you only need to grab the few you like in order to be "competative". Even when I've been in the most time consuming and heavy situations in life I've still had time to actually sit down and do the minimal "needed" tasks in WF, and also get to stress down through it. Which was practically 3 hours total over the course of a week. And if you cannot fit in 3 hours over 7 days you likely shouldnt be near GAAS games to begin with. Heck you likely shouldnt even play one-and-done game either if they require a large amount of hours to complete in order to experience it all. Like heavy RPGs such as the Witcher series or Divinity, games that can take hundreds of hours for a single play through.

That's a fair comment. I can't disagree with this. 

22 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No idea what my time has to do with what you bolded. But you are correct, other people decide what they want to post, that doesnt mean it has any validity in the end, or that it looks even remotely related to the discussion at hand. As you posting Horizon videos over and over on the forum for a GAAS looter shooter. You are practically posting Bieber videos on a Cannibal Corpse board and demanding Cannibal Corpse should sound like Bieber.

Validity is determined by the reader. 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Felsagger

[SneakyErvin]

28 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Opinions can't be wrong. They are opinions. 

Facts can be wrong or right. 

There is a difference. 

That's a fair commonet. I can't disagree with this. 

Validity is determined by the reader. 

 

But your opinion is rooted in facts here. Since you compare two different genres and think about them as if they were interchangable. Hence why your opinion in this case is wrong and flawed. There is fact in GAAS games working differently from one and done games, that they have different gameplay loops and appeals. So you having an opinion that WF should be more like Horizon for instance is wrong. Just as you look at Horizon and think WF should have the same up to date graphics, even though the facts tell us that the requirements vary widely between the games, and one being single player and the other multiplayers, facts that turn your opinion wrong.

If this was simply us discussing what we like and dislike about what is in the game, like how one of us might like mission type X and the other not, that would be a matter of opinion since taste isnt rooted in facts. Or if you stuck to simply saying "I dont like farming" without using a completely unrelated type of game as a better game in comparison you wouldnt be wrong, since you'd simply have an opinion regarding liking or disliking farming in general. But everytime you spam a Horizon video as a showcase of a "better" game in comparison to WF your opinion turns wrong since they arent comparable game because they cater to widely different audiences and fixes when played. They just arent ment to be used in the same way.

Validity is determined by the subject at hand. It isnt valid to use an unrelated example to the overall discussion. Valid here would be to bring up other games with loot farming so we could compare how other similar games do it. Horizon has nothing of that so doesnt really become a valid example of the system done better, since it doesnt utilize such a system in the first place.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

Neither, It's "WarFarm." 😆
 

17 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Opinions can't be wrong. They are opinions. 

Facts can be wrong or right. 

There is a difference. 

...

Validity is determined by the reader. 

 

This doesn't make sense to me with everyday usage of English. It ought to be something like this:
Opinions can be wrong or right.
Facts are correct and are never wrong. (Unless you believe in alternative facts.)
There is a difference.

In regards to validity, that's more of a common philosophical debatable topic. The truth can be true without proper validity.

When a tree falls down and no one is near, did the tree really fall down? I'm not sure, maybe one should walk to the tree and see if it's still upright.

Can no-cause cause a tree to fall...now that's another debate. Such as if a plane crashes and no one knows how it crashed, does that mean it was uncaused?

Edited May 26, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Felsagger]

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But your opinion is rooted in facts here. Since you compare two different genres and think about them as if they were interchangable.

Wrong. 

Products never are interchangable. They are comparable on certain attributes. 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Hence why your opinion in this case is wrong and flawed.

According to you. 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is fact in GAAS games working differently from one and done games, that they have different gameplay loops and appeals. So you having an opinion that WF should be more like Horizon for instance is wrong.

Wrong again. 

DE should aspire for an open world detailed environment. Should it be at the level of Horizon Zero Burning Shores? Of course not. It should at least attempt of increasing the level of detail, graphics quality more than just an IOS wannabe product. It should stop being average. We had this game for ten years. It SHOULD NOT look the same. Technology progresses. 

 

Your brain, use it. 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just as you look at Horizon and think WF should have the same up to date graphics, even though the facts tell us that the requirements vary widely between the games, and one being single player and the other multiplayers, facts that turn your opinion wrong.

Wrong again. 

DE will NEVER REACH THE QUALITY OF HZ Burning Shores because their medium is entirely different. 

However DE can reach their pace improving their open world arenas up to moderate levels. They are NOT DOING ENOUGH to update their graphics and engine technology. They are heading towards the big average. 

 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If this was simply us discussing what we like and dislike about what is in the game, like how one of us might like mission type X and the other not, that would be a matter of opinion since taste isnt rooted in facts. Or if you stuck to simply saying "I dont like farming" without using a completely unrelated type of game as a better game in comparison you wouldnt be wrong, since you'd simply have an opinion regarding liking or disliking farming in general. But everytime you spam a Horizon video as a showcase of a "better" game in comparison to WF your opinion turns wrong since they arent comparable game because they cater to widely different audiences and fixes when played. They just arent ment to be used in the same way.

But that's actually true. 

Horizon is better than Warframe. Do you know why? FUN.

Why? The game doesn't postpone gratifications. In terms of story, Horizon is superior. In terms of gameplay, Horizon is superior. In terms of MODERATE replay value, Horizon is superior. However this IS a personal take. 

But if we use facts and numbers Horizon totally DESTROYS warframe. But this doesn't make Warframe less fun. Warframe as it is now is considered a fair good game for what it does. 

However we all understand that Warframe is a peer to peer online game and Horizon is a SINGLE PLAYER campaign. 

 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Validity is determined by the subject at hand.

Wrong. 

That is an individual process. You decide what is valid for you. I decide what is valid for me. 

 

However TRUTH is a different subject. That takes us into the field of objectivity or science. 

 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt valid to use an unrelated example to the overall discussion. Valid here would be to bring up other games with loot farming so we could compare how other similar games do it. Horizon has nothing of that so doesnt really become a valid example of the system done better, since it doesnt utilize such a system in the first place.

According to your criteria. 

 

Hint: Not everybody thinks like you do. 

 

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Neither, It's "WarFarm." 😆
 

This doesn't make sense to me with everyday usage of English. It ought to be something like this:
Opinions can be wrong or right.
Facts are correct and are never wrong. (Unless you believe in alternative facts.)
There is a difference.

In regards to validity, that's more of a common philosophical debatable topic. The truth can be true without proper validity.

When a tree falls down and no one is near, did the tree really fall down? I'm not sure, maybe one should walk to the tree and see if it's still upright.

Can no-cause cause a tree to fall...now that's another debate. Such as if a plane crashes and no one knows how it crashed, does that mean it was uncaused?

 

This is a fair good post. 

We must separate appraisal from truth. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

29 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Technology progresses. 

Still needs to cater to minimum requirements. That are far more forgiving in WF than your beloved techno barbarian girl game. 

[Felsagger]

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Still needs to cater to minimum requirements.

 

If we use this rubric then Spider Man 2, Horizon Zero Dawn Forbidden West, Titanfall 2, Burning Shores, Chrono Odyssey SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN. 

The peer to peer GAAS F2P model will never catch up the speed of progress due to the very nature of its attributes. 

Add to the list the large list of bugs that such games produces. 

Add to the list the large number of technical factors that must be considered in the number of diverse devices that the GAAS game will be played. 

 

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That are far more forgiving in WF than your beloved techno barbarian girl game. 

 

The standards of technology matters. If you still enjoy GAMEBOY like graphics of course you are free to do so. There is nothing wrong with that.   

 

HINT: Not everybody has YOUR standards.  

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

If we use this rubric then Spider Man 2, Horizon Zero Dawn Forbidden West, Titanfall 2, Burning Shores, Chrono Odyssey SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN. 

The peer to peer GAAS F2P model will never catch up the speed of progress due to the very nature of its attributes. 

Add to the list the large list of bugs that such games produces. 

Add to the list the large number of technical factors that must be considered in the number of diverse devices that the GAAS game will be played. 

 

 

The standards of technology matters. If you still enjoy GAMEBOY like graphics of course you are free to do so. There is nothing wrong with that.   

 

HINT: Not everybody has YOUR standards.  

Why? What the #*!% are you on? Those games aside from TF2 (which is old now and sees no particular updates) are all designed with later tech in mind since they have nothing to grandfather as opposed to exsisting GAAS games. They all have a strict target, with a narrow low and high end requirement. And even if those games were GAAS games they wouldnt have to worry about grandfathering, since they'd be new games with different minimum requirements in mind. However when they'd get down the rode they'd have to consider those minimum requirements aswell for future releases, unless they'd wanna cut parts of their playerbase.

And wow, you are finaly nearly getting my point, yet fall on the finish line. Correct, peer to peer games will never catch up, since they will have issues in the peer to peer system. But it really doesnt end there, it also has to do with other factors. A game with less effects in combat or a far lower mob density can also manage to look better, since they dont need to worry about the overdrive of effects or enemies on the screen. And then multiplayer comes into the picture, since rending NPCs is different from rendering PCs etc. So games with multiplayer need to keep that in mind aswell. Then comes map size and so on. There is a reason BF looks so shiny in comparison to Arma, because it has a far lower player count potential and the maps are toddler sized compared to Arma. It also doesnt make use of NPCs and so on to further increase the feeling of open war.

But that you include GAAS and F2P here as limiting factors is just utterly stupid. None of that has anything to do with how the game can look. You can make a HZD F2P GAAS game with the same potential for graphics, since neither F2P or GAAS impacts what you can do, they just describe monetization and update cycles. The problem with GAAS comes later down the line and only under certain circumstances, like in looter games such as Warframe where players have big investments in the game. Something that wouldnt apply to a HZD F2P GAAS game, because it would still be a "one and done" experience between the updates. It's just that instead of picking up a new DLC it would be added to the game directly and the game would likely be funded through a vanity cash shop.

And you should really take your last "hint" to your own heart, since that is what people try to point out to you. Not everything needs to look top notch in order to be good. There is more to a game than just visuals.

[Felsagger]

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why? What the #*!% are you on?

Calm yourself down. I think caffeine is making you get agitated. 

lol. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those games aside from TF2 (which is old now and sees no particular updates) are all designed with later tech in mind since they have nothing to grandfather as opposed to exsisting GAAS games.

Your mind is running in a different rail. 

I never said that such games grandfathered warframe. Blame google for this misinterpretation. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They all have a strict target, with a narrow low and high end requirement. And even if those games were GAAS games they wouldnt have to worry about grandfathering, since they'd be new games with different minimum requirements in mind. However when they'd get down the rode they'd have to consider those minimum requirements aswell for future releases, unless they'd wanna cut parts of their playerbase.

That's not the point. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And wow, you are finaly nearly getting my point,

I know what I am doing. 

You don't. Why? You react. You do NOT read where I'm heading. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

yet fall on the finish line.

This is your personality. I know how your brain works. I don't mind if you believe that. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Correct, peer to peer games will never catch up, since they will have issues in the peer to peer system.

Finally you understood WHY I do such comparisons. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it really doesnt end there, it also has to do with other factors. A game with less effects in combat or a far lower mob density can also manage to look better, since they dont need to worry about the overdrive of effects or enemies on the screen.

That's a matter of game design. This is true of course. Greater number of enemies impacts the performance of the game. 

However let us put that theory of yours to a test. 

Let us try a BESTIARY. 

The engine is quite robust under stressful conditions if you ask me. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And then multiplayer comes into the picture, since rending NPCs is different from rendering PCs etc. So games with multiplayer need to keep that in mind aswell. Then comes map size and so on. There is a reason BF looks so shiny in comparison to Arma, because it has a far lower player count potential and the maps are toddler sized compared to Arma. It also doesnt make use of NPCs and so on to further increase the feeling of open war.

This is pipelining infrastructure. The size of this pipelining defines the budget of polygons for the frame rate performance. 

I know my subject. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that you include GAAS and F2P here as limiting factors is just utterly stupid.

Again, you do not know what I am doing. 

But I do. 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

None of that has anything to do with how the game can look. You can make a HZD F2P GAAS game with the same potential for graphics, since neither F2P or GAAS impacts what you can do, they just describe monetization and update cycles. The problem with GAAS comes later down the line and only under certain circumstances, like in looter games such as Warframe where players have big investments in the game. Something that wouldnt apply to a HZD F2P GAAS game, because it would still be a "one and done" experience between the updates. It's just that instead of picking up a new DLC it would be added to the game directly and the game would likely be funded through a vanity cash shop.

 

Here is the concept you do not get. These comparison are examples of developers that excels at multiple tasks under robust framerate performance and robust debugging. These developers shows love for their product and dedication. These developers are responsible for the presentation of their game. These developers invest time in details without being lazy in the implementation. That's why such examples are presented. 

 

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And you should really take your last "hint" to your own heart, since that is what people try to point out to you. Not everything needs to look top notch in order to be good. There is more to a game than just visuals.

Wait, Titanfall 2 is not a graphical intensive game. However Titanfall 2 has the best FPS mechanics ever done on two different scales, the human and the titan. These are the best tile sets ever made for parkour complex mechanics such as lurching and momentum swinging. 

 

YOU SHOULD play the games first in order to know WHY I make these comparisons. 

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Calm yourself down. I think caffeine is making you get agitated. 

lol. 

Your mind is running in a different rail. 

I never said that such games grandfathered warframe. Blame google for this misinterpretation. 

That's not the point. 

I know what I am doing. 

You don't. Why? You react. You do NOT read where I'm heading. 

This is your personality. I know how your brain works. I don't mind if you believe that. 

Finally you understood WHY I do such comparisons. 

That's a matter of game design. This is true of course. Greater number of enemies impacts the performance of the game. 

However let us put that theory of yours to a test. 

Let us try a BESTIARY. 

The engine is quite robust under stressful conditions if you ask me. 

This is pipelining infrastructure. The size of this pipelining defines the budget of polygons for the frame rate performance. 

I know my subject. 

Again, you do not know what I am doing. 

But I do. 

 

Here is the concept you do not get. These comparison are examples of developers that excels at multiple tasks under robust framerate performance and robust debugging. These developers shows love for their product and dedication. These developers are responsible for the presentation of their game. These developers invest time in details without being lazy in the implementation. That's why such examples are presented. 

 

Wait, Titanfall 2 is not a graphical intensive game. However Titanfall 2 has the best FPS mechanics ever done on two different scales, the human and the titan. These are the best tile sets ever made for parkour complex mechanics such as lurching and momentum swinging. 

 

YOU SHOULD play the games first in order to know WHY I make these comparisons. 

Grandfathered Warframe? What are you talking about? How bad is your lingo? Grandfathering refers to how WF needs to cater to older generations because it isnt built with a clean slate every update as opposed to HZD and all other one-and-done games that are built on a clean slate. 

And no your comparisons are flawed for that very reason, since you are never comparing, you are demanding. "WF needs this!", "WF needs that!", which would be utterly stupid to say if you actually grasp why WF can never really get that which you ask for. FFS, you've even been at the end of the pool where you demand WF to be turned from a loot farm game into something more like HZD. And not only once, but in practically every thread you ever visit and type in. Solution for you is, do not play WF.

Your video also shows no particul density in content, it is rather scarse, not very effectful either even if it is all bosses at once. Even a tactical shooter like Outriders has a far higher avarage density than that, and it doesnt come even remotely close to an avarage mission in WF, where you kill atleast 100 enemies per minute that require constant spawning over and over.

But your examples have nothing in common with WF except for being 3rd person action games really. Reducing WF to the miniscule amount of mobs you present here would change the game into not-WF. So those other devs arent more passionate or dedicated, they just work on a different type of game. I mean, currently you are actively dev bashing, nothing else really.

The tilesets in TF2 are dull. Every video you have ever posted of it has been a sleeping pill. Especially when you were going to showcase the "superior A.I" of it in comparison to WF. An A.I that by your video seemed both deaf and blind, running the opposite direction of gunfire and friends dying while also never watching their back. Which is also in a game that is supposed to be a tactical shooter, not a horde slaughter game like WF. And while they might do human and titan great, that is only because no other game has really done it. Vehicle and infantry gameplay is overall already done several times better in Battlefield aswell as Arma, and pure mech gameplay is best done in the Mech Warrior games. TF2 is just CoD with light mechs, but it cannot shake the CoD taint. Heck, BF2042 did fantastic mech gameplay, which actually put it to the test versus tanks and air units aswell.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Grandfathered Warframe? What are you talking about? How bad is your lingo? Grandfathering refers to how WF needs to cater to older generations because it isnt built with a clean slate every update as opposed to HZD and all other one-and-done games that are built on a clean slate. 

Remember I am not a geek like you on certain topics. My nerd expertise is architecture, 3D modeling and physics and mathematics. Video game is a side hobby I have. 

For next posts you should point out how you are using the term 'grandfathering'. You should write the sentence you wrote now for the term. Remember put the horses first and the wagon behind the horses. Otherwise you make it harder for me what you are talking about. 

What you are referring to is RENOVATION. This is the language of retention of old players and acquisition of new players. You are talking about extrinsic and intrinsic. This conversation doesn't apply here. But we can carry it out. 

Horizon Zero Dawn Forbidden West, Burning Shores, God of War Ragnarok and Elden Ring are games that doesn't work with grandfathering. These games are one pass over with some retention elements of retention such as replay value. They are NOT GAAS games on such regard. 

The problem that Warframe has is that DE IS NOT INTERESTED ON OLD PLAYER EXPERIENCED USERS. They are searching all the time new players for their cause. This is their main clause and the problem why Warframe is entering a detrimental season. 

The GAAS formula that Warframe has hasn't been reviewed thoroughly. It's almost the same mechanics for the past seven years. Indeed, GAAS games operates like that but at least games that repeats the same cycle should improve these main activities. 

The people that sustains a game are the veterans. Nubs, scrubs, posers, wankers and all other temporary type of players are not a firm secure income fo DE. Single player games don't have that problem. You pay for the ride and that's it. This is a riskier path than the GAAS game approach. Those who goes on sales of single player games SHOULD BE GOOD AT IT. Otherwise those developers would be done. Veteran retention of players is the key for the life or death of a GAAS game. 

If DE focuses on new players retention only then prepare yourself for more content warcontentislandmainaframe. Is DE trying? Well they try plugging in RNG to everything the think. They plug in RNG even for the Coca Cola they pull off the vendor machine, lol. 

Yes clean slate games runs on different dynamics. This should not even mentioned here. I mentioned those games because we are talking about postposition of gratifications. This irks the player more because his/her time is limited when he/her is an adult. Are other games less lenient? Yes, but the least of evil should not be considered here in the conversation. 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no your comparisons are flawed for that very reason, since you are never comparing, you are demanding.

 

FINALLY HE GOT THE POINT. 

 

BRAVO. 

 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

"WF needs this!", "WF needs that!", which would be utterly stupid to say if you actually grasp why WF can never really get that which you ask for. FFS, you've even been at the end of the pool where you demand WF to be turned from a loot farm game into something more like HZD. And not only once, but in practically every thread you ever visit and type in. Solution for you is, do not play WF.

If Warframe can't give me what I want. What should follow? 

 

I simply stop playing the game and invest my money elsewhere. In other words DE will bleed players again. Do you want that? Do you really want that? Are you sure? 

 

See? 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Your video also shows no particul density in content, it is rather scarse, not very effectful either even if it is all bosses at once. Even a tactical shooter like Outriders has a far higher avarage density than that, and it doesnt come even remotely close to an avarage mission in WF, where you kill atleast 100 enemies per minute that require constant spawning over and over.

Out of curiosity. What is the number of polygons of one of those mechs in Horizon Zero Dawn and the polygon count of a single enemy in Warframe. 

 

Done. 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

But your examples have nothing in common with WF except for being 3rd person action games really. Reducing WF to the miniscule amount of mobs you present here would change the game into not-WF. So those other devs arent more passionate or dedicated, they just work on a different type of game. I mean, currently you are actively dev bashing, nothing else really.

Again you miss the point here. 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

The tilesets in TF2 are dull.

That's good trolling. 

I accept that. You made me laugh hard there. Your trolling IS improving. 

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Every video you have ever posted of it has been a sleeping pill. Especially when you were going to showcase the "superior A.I" of it in comparison to WF. An A.I that by your video seemed both deaf and blind, running the opposite direction of gunfire and friends dying while also never watching their back. Which is also in a game that is supposed to be a tactical shooter, not a horde slaughter game like WF. And while they might do human and titan great, that is only because no other game has really done it. Vehicle and infantry gameplay is overall already done several times better in Battlefield aswell as Arma, and pure mech gameplay is best done in the Mech Warrior games. TF2 is just CoD with light mechs, but it cannot shake the CoD taint. Heck, BF2042 did fantastic mech gameplay, which actually put it to the test versus tanks and air units aswell.

Your trolling is getting way better here. 

Should I bite this bait? Ok, let me bite. 

You obviously haven't played any of these games. You should play other genres, you know.....If you are going to be a gamer, at least do that right.....:3

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Out of curiosity. What is the number of polygons of one of those mechs in Horizon Zero Dawn and the polygon count of a single enemy in Warframe. 

First of, grandfathering shouldnt have to be explained to someone who claims they are knowledgable in development.

Secondly. The part I quoted here also implies you arent really knowledgable in graphics and performance. More polygons doesnt mean better. The balance between how the graphics look and the polycount matters. Also, in WF things need to render over and over and over throughout a mission, while in your example the mobs are rendered and done for the player. You also forget the other important part, that HZD doesnt have near the amount of things going on. Spell effects, destructables, loot rolls tied to mobs and destructable items, A.I calculations in far more mobs and so on. All things that impact performance. And all of this, even when we play solo, must be designed to also work the same in multiplayer, since that is an option within the game. Restrictions that HZD and several other games you bring up doesnt have to care about.

[VenTheWeeb]

Warfarm