Recasting depreciated abilities on older warframes (small reworks)

[Damocles]

I don't believe that I should be giving up 1 slot just to avoid needing to jump off a cliff to debuff myself on abilities with infinite technical duration and degrading performance. At some point the ability is essentially offering little to no effect and needs to be recast but we are prevented. A parallel I can draw to this is replacing batteries on your mouse when you feel the DPI is off and you're getting intermittent drop outs, but your battery cannot eject as long as it has 5% juices left, which makes no sense. Can we finally just have recasting for abilities with degrading performance and indefinite duration?

Here are some abilities I think should be resconsidered:

• Rhino's Iron Skin (The augment takes up a slot and make it seem required if I want to refresh, but I don't want to buy a large TV just for the box it comes in)
• Nova's Null Star (Similarly to Rhino's issue, though there is a second augment that seems a bit more useful, however I firmly believe augments should be optional and not used to correct problems with abilities with base functional issues. If I lose a majority of my stars, I don't want to search for a cliff to jump off)
• Nezha's Warding Halo (This one doesn't even get an augment for recasting, and I don't think using augments to fix a problem is correct. Abilities should work as-is, and augments should be adding new features to an existing ability. The two should not be tied together)
• Octavia's Resonator + Conductor Augment loses recasting (Change to aim+recast to command, hip fire + recast actually recasts so we can resync with the other durations. This is an example of an augment taking away a functionality that was existing)
• Harrow's Covenant (To allow tactical survivability and also to retry the strength of the buff. People will probably abuse the invulnerability, but it seems similar to shield gating and less Mesmer skin OP)

It also seems that newer frames are more polished and do not have these recasting restrictions. Can you imagine if Kullervo cannot recast his 2, recompense, to regain overguard until it is completely depleted?

[quxier]

7 minutes ago, Damocles said:

•  

It also seems that newer frames are more polished and do not have these recasting restrictions. Can you imagine if Kullervo cannot recast his 2, recompense, to regain overguard until it is completely depleted?

*Confused Kullervo noise*

What do you mean? You can cast Recompense (2nd) while you have Overshields?

Joking aside, (re)casting & ability duration/sustaining is not always perfect. Not even the "newest" frames are perfect.

Kullervo/2nd has slight "cast ban" (= you cannot cast ability) during Recompense(2). Dagger has to hit targets (or something like this, I don't remember) in order for you to recast. It's nothing big.

Kullervo/1st cannot be cast for some time after casting ability (bug I would say). For moves that requires many quick teleports it's big restriction.

Styanax cannot cast anything during 4th (6 seconds, 8 with Helminth), It's like, cast, sip your (Pro)tea, and continue fighting. It cannot be recasting while in the air.

Xaku/2nd cannot be recast at all while you have all guns. With preferred style of "cast & forget" that 4th heavily incentivize you are banned from casting 2nd for minutes if not more (I've forgotten that data).

Zephyr's 3rd (afair) cannot be cast while active. 20 s at base. There is probably more of such abilities.

=> Gyre's 3rd has ~60 second cooldown (starts at casting time) and 8 second time. However each kill increase ability duration by 3s (base)

Sevagoth needs 75% of his "meter" (15 from 20 kills). Doable but not always possible (to change for at any time).

 

[Frendh]

3 hours ago, Damocles said:

Rhino's Iron Skin (The augment takes up a slot and make it seem required if I want to refresh, but I don't want to buy a large TV just for the box it comes in)

No. Gives you invulnerability on recast.

3 hours ago, Damocles said:

Nezha's Warding Halo (This one doesn't even get an augment for recasting, and I don't think using augments to fix a problem is correct. Abilities should work as-is, and augments should be adding new features to an existing ability. The two should not be tied together)

No. Gives invulnerability on expiry.

3 hours ago, Damocles said:

Harrow's Covenant (To allow tactical survivability and also to retry the strength of the buff. People will probably abuse the invulnerability, but it seems similar to shield gating and less Mesmer skin OP)

You said it yourself. Don't know why you even posted this. It is not similar in any meaningful way to shield gating. If it was then there would be no incentive to abuse it.  Just because 2 or so Warframes have broken abilities does not mean it is okay to add more broken abilities into the game.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Damocles said:

Harrow's Covenant (To allow tactical survivability and also to retry the strength of the buff. People will probably abuse the invulnerability, but it seems similar to shield gating and less Mesmer skin OP)

Oh dear, Mesmer Skin is going to get used to justify bad ideas that are just "not as bad as Mesmer Skin" forever, isn't it?  :P 

But note that Covenant gives invulnerability to allies in affinity range too, so it may actually be worse.  Mesmer Skin takes an augment to do that, and may only give 5-6 seconds of invulnerability to allies for that cast.  I might never play Harrow in difficult content again, "harrow wtf.  we kill stuff, u just keep invuln up, k???"

[Damocles]

22 hours ago, quxier said:

*Confused Kullervo noise*

What do you mean? You can cast Recompense (2nd) while you have Overshields?

Joking aside, (re)casting & ability duration/sustaining is not always perfect. Not even the "newest" frames are perfect.

Kullervo/2nd has slight "cast ban" (= you cannot cast ability) during Recompense(2). Dagger has to hit targets (or something like this, I don't remember) in order for you to recast. It's nothing big.

Kullervo/1st cannot be cast for some time after casting ability (bug I would say). For moves that requires many quick teleports it's big restriction.

Styanax cannot cast anything during 4th (6 seconds, 8 with Helminth), It's like, cast, sip your (Pro)tea, and continue fighting. It cannot be recasting while in the air.

Xaku/2nd cannot be recast at all while you have all guns. With preferred style of "cast & forget" that 4th heavily incentivize you are banned from casting 2nd for minutes if not more (I've forgotten that data).

Zephyr's 3rd (afair) cannot be cast while active. 20 s at base. There is probably more of such abilities.

=> Gyre's 3rd has ~60 second cooldown (starts at casting time) and 8 second time. However each kill increase ability duration by 3s (base)

Sevagoth needs 75% of his "meter" (15 from 20 kills). Doable but not always possible (to change for at any time).

 

I want to emphasize the difference in the points we're making. I'm saying that for abilities that 

1. Degrades in performance
2. Has no definite expiration timer
3. Cannot be recasted

Kullervo: Does degrade, no timer, can be recasted to restore overguard. Recast delays are not my focus, but I agree they are lame AF

Styanax: Cannot cast is not the same as my argument of recasting depreciating abilities

Xaku: His 2nd ability doesn't degrade in performance, you also have control over the timer, and if you didn't get the full X number of guns, it CAN be recasted to gain more guns up to X guns. Unlike my argument, if I lose some of my overguard or w/e Nezha's thing is called, I can't recast it, and I cant wait it out either.

Zephyr: Does not degrade in performance, and does have a timer which you can recast, which is imo better than overguard if not for explosions and eximus.

Gyre: ??? I dont play Gyre, but it sounds like Gyre can at least upkeep the ability and doesn't sound like it degrades either

Sevagoth: Is this something you're recasting to upkeep or maintain? I'm confused why this one is brought up but I also don't play Sevagoth

[Damocles]

22 hours ago, Frendh said:

No. Gives you invulnerability on recast.

No. Gives invulnerability on expiry.

You said it yourself. Don't know why you even posted this. It is not similar in any meaningful way to shield gating. If it was then there would be no incentive to abuse it.  Just because 2 or so Warframes have broken abilities does not mean it is okay to add more broken abilities into the game.

Gives invulnerability on recast sounds like a solid reason, and abusing that is an excellent argument. But then again, Mesmer skin exists, and that is perfect invulnerability. Now I know we can't give every frame the same treatment, all I'm asking is why we need an augment to do something that seems so basic that even newer frames get it for free. It appears to me to be legacy frames only that suffer from non-recastable abilities

[Damocles]

22 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Oh dear, Mesmer Skin is going to get used to justify bad ideas that are just "not as bad as Mesmer Skin" forever, isn't it?  :P 

But note that Covenant gives invulnerability to allies in affinity range too, so it may actually be worse.  Mesmer Skin takes an augment to do that, and may only give 5-6 seconds of invulnerability to allies for that cast.  I might never play Harrow in difficult content again, "harrow wtf.  we kill stuff, u just keep invuln up, k???"

I don't have a perfect solution to every ability, but I am saying that it seems dumb that if I use it and I didn't get the full critical chance, I cannot recast or attempt to try again to get that maximum buff. Perhaps a better way would be to disconnect the need gain the maximum buff from the invulnerability stage or perhaps the buff is not affected by damage received during invulnerability so recasting isn't needed in the first place?

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, Damocles said:

I don't have a perfect solution to every ability, but I am saying that it seems dumb that if I use it and I didn't get the full critical chance, I cannot recast or attempt to try again to get that maximum buff. Perhaps a better way would be to disconnect the need gain the maximum buff from the invulnerability stage or perhaps the buff is not affected by damage received during invulnerability so recasting isn't needed in the first place?

While much more reasonable from a macro standpoint, I enjoy working around the CD, that the damage buff is coupled with the invuln, and that it's affected by negated damage.  All part of what makes Harrow so interesting to me.   So we are just not going to agree on this one.

I would like some tweaks to Covenant to make it somewhat less dependent on damage negated, so that Harrow can be more fun when paired with CC frames.  But nothing like you're suggesting.

[Damocles]

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

While much more reasonable from a macro standpoint, I enjoy working around the CD, that the damage buff is coupled with the invuln, and that it's affected by negated damage.  All part of what makes Harrow so interesting to me.   So we are just not going to agree on this one.

I would like some tweaks to Covenant to make it somewhat less dependent on damage negated, so that Harrow can be more fun when paired with CC frames.  But nothing like you're suggesting.

Either way is fine, I just don't want to cast 4 for buff, not get the full buff, and be locked out of it for another ~however long my duration is

[quxier]

 

1 hour ago, Damocles said:

Styanax: Cannot cast is not the same as my argument of recasting depreciating abilities

It's still ends with player not being able to do (almost) anything.

1 hour ago, Damocles said:

Xaku: His 2nd ability doesn't degrade in performance, you also have control over the timer, and if you didn't get the full X number of guns, it CAN be recasted to gain more guns up to X guns. Unlike my argument, if I lose some of my overguard or w/e Nezha's thing is called, I can't recast it, and I cant wait it out either.

You can wait for 4th time to run out. However if you run any other abilities (especially 3rd) then you are loosing them too. Xaku is "expensive at start not very expensive to maintain".

About guns:

- you loose disarming feature (not great nowadays with eximus but still nerf)

- guns take power from enemy level afair

1 hour ago, Damocles said:

Zephyr: Does not degrade in performance, and does have a timer which you can recast, which is imo better than overguard if not for explosions and eximus.

I can recast Zephyr's AFTER time runs out.

1 hour ago, Damocles said:

Gyre: ??? I dont play Gyre, but it sounds like Gyre can at least upkeep the ability and doesn't sound like it degrades either

You can upkeep 3rd (and 4th with augment) if you can kill enemies. Otherwise it's cooldowns.

1 hour ago, Damocles said:

Sevagoth: Is this something you're recasting to upkeep or maintain? I'm confused why this one is brought up but I also don't play Sevagoth

Sev has 2 forms. In order to change form you have to "mark enemies" (1st or 2nd ability) and kill them. You need 15-20 marked kills to change form. So you are good with killing you can change forms easily.

1 hour ago, Damocles said:

I want to emphasize the difference in the points we're making. I'm saying that for abilities that 

1. Degrades in performance
2. Has no definite expiration timer
3. Cannot be recasted

Yes, I know what you are talking about. You are talking about "extreme" situation. I'm just saying that there are something "in between" that is not great as well that could be fixed (or just being aware of it cons).

Like Kullervo/Recompense slight cooldown isn't affecting gameplay too much. On other hand not killing enough enemeis during Gyre/3 makes you not being able to use ability for at least ~50 seconds.

[Qriist]

On 2023-07-05 at 11:11 AM, Damocles said:

• Rhino's Iron Skin (The augment takes up a slot and make it seem required if I want to refresh, but I don't want to buy a large TV just for the box it comes in)

Rhino's Iron Skin scales based on armor, power strength, and a few other variables the player has a certain degree of control of in mission. Most notably, the player decides when to cast it. Popping the ability at the start of the mission will achieve a paltry few thousand overguard while popping it under fire will absorb the incoming damage to push that number to the moon. There's also other shenanigans people can do to go even further.

Meanwhile, the augment turns your accumulated Iron Skin value into a local nuke at the expense of having to start from scratch.

I don't really play Rhino so it's difficult for me to form a deep defense here, but even I can see that the augment is introducing a different playstyle.

 

On 2023-07-05 at 11:11 AM, Damocles said:

• Nezha's Warding Halo (This one doesn't even get an augment for recasting, and I don't think using augments to fix a problem is correct. Abilities should work as-is, and augments should be adding new features to an existing ability. The two should not be tied together)

14 hours ago, Damocles said:

if I lose some of my overguard or w/e Nezha's thing is called, I can't recast it, and I cant wait it out either.

Nezha, on the other hand, I play a ton of. His Warding Halo is one of the best defensive abilities in the game. I personally think it's better than Iron Skin or Mesmer Skin at all reasonably accessible levels of play.

Similar to Iron Skin, Warding Halo is designed to be recast the moment it breaks to dramatically scale the next shield. This is especially evident due to the audio cue and 1 second invicibility phase that seamlessly transitions into the 3 second invincibility phase of the next cast. Due to this, I've gone many one-hour (and a few two-hour) kuva survival missions while casting just a handful of Warding Halos over the course of each mission. I never want to "refresh" my Warding Halo without being actively shot at.

The augment is designed to give Nezha a slight party support role. I think it fails in that department due to sheer clunkiness but nevertheless it addresses a vastly different concern.

 

On 2023-07-05 at 11:11 AM, Damocles said:

• Harrow's Covenant (To allow tactical survivability and also to retry the strength of the buff. People will probably abuse the invulnerability, but it seems similar to shield gating and less Mesmer skin OP)

I'm confused by your argument. Covenant's invincibility phase, while good on paper, is such an obnoxious hinderance to the meat of the ability that there's an entire augment devoted to keeping you out of it for as long as possible. 

 

12 hours ago, quxier said:

You can wait for 4th time to run out. However if you run any other abilities (especially 3rd) then you are loosing them too. Xaku is "expensive at start not very expensive to maintain".

You can also hold the 4th to manually deactivate it, which I suppose can be useful when you want to manually refresh your guns quicker. Not really useful except when a relic crack buffs your ability strength and range (previously held guns don't benefit from the current powerup).

 

12 hours ago, quxier said:

- guns take power from enemy level afair

Yup, infinitely scaling.

 

12 hours ago, quxier said:

You can upkeep 3rd (and 4th with augment) if you can kill enemies. Otherwise it's cooldowns.

Cathode Grace's innate self-sustaining aspect I would like to see expanded to other skills on other frames, particularly those which already have an augment doing just that and nothing else (aka Warcry and Covenant).

Cathode Current is fine to stay as an augment mod because it does more than just extend Rotorswell's duration.

 

On 2023-07-05 at 2:09 PM, quxier said:

Kullervo/1st cannot be cast for some time after casting ability (bug I would say). For moves that requires many quick teleports it's big restriction.

I think this is supposed to incentivize you to mop up stragglers with quick attacks to rebuild your combo meter, but I fully agree the apparent ~3 second cooldown should be noted on the skill card if its intended.

 

On 2023-07-05 at 2:09 PM, quxier said:

Kullervo/2nd has slight "cast ban" (= you cannot cast ability) during Recompense(2). Dagger has to hit targets (or something like this, I don't remember) in order for you to recast. It's nothing big.

I'm fine with Recompense needing to finish its sequence before being recast. It's similar to how most skills works, as far as I'm concerned. Given the way I use it (Recompense followed by immediate Wrathful Vengeance into a mob for instant completion) I haven't noticed any issues on this front.