Blindly following the "meta" is the single worst statergy in the game and actively ruins it for others.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

The issue is more that the same subset of players very often have many of the toxic behavours that have been described in the thread. This near religious devotion to any part of the game that can have a "meta" is their main identifying feature. Most people here have had simular toxic experiances with them. As pointed out before they see Warframe as a job and not a game.

The problem is it's less of a "one of the guys" one and more of an elitism one. To quote one meta-moron: "seeking perfection or as close to it as possible". They want to be better as flex, not to have fun. To reiterate it's ok to copy a build you like or use a weapon because it's "kewl" but when it negatively affects others, that's when it goes too far. That's what these players are doing, ruining for others so they can be the "best". 

In addition, you need to grow, change and adapt, not mindlessly follow whatever "the meta" is. A great example is Kullervo. He has been out for less than a month and there's already the "meta" of swapping out his 1 and running max range. If you ask them why, they'll say "because it's the meta" "because his 1 is weak" when they have never used his 1 or tried any other builds. The endless cycle of "because it's the meta" they must copy and not question it. 

It's less of a "trend" and more of a mindset. One of elitism, bullying and manipulation. It's their tantrums and harassment when they don't get their way ruins the game for others. It's that rigid worldview of being the best at the cost of others. It's trying to cause a photosensitive seizure in their squadmates so they can get more kills in a pve environment. It's disgraceful and goes against the spirit of the game and I'm more than glad to shine a light on it. 

Do you have any concrete proof of that wild claim? Since personally, from the point I started in 2017 I've had uhm maybe 5 bad experiences with players where they've actually acted elitist towards someone else in the group. I very much doubt that you sit down and try to talk with people regarding their choices in a group, and if you do I wouldnt be surprised if they get upset and touchy in such a high paced game cetnered around farming things. It isnt toxic to want to get as much out of your playtime as possible.

I dont see how the choice of colors turn into elitist behavior, or how meta equals elitist either. Since there is quite a huge step from simply wanting to be efficient to being one that demands it from everyone. I also dont see what is moronic about wanting to seek perfection in a game type that promotes it in order to get more out of the time you spend on the game. It is a huge part of these types of games, min-maxing and improving how efficient you can become.

You assume that everyone that plays meta follows "the meta". So us that dont follow anything and still end up with the meta, should we stop using it just because it has been confirmed as meta by some random content creator? That sounds like an extremely silly mindset, as silly if not more so than those that follow their favorite neon-god no-name to the letter of their neo-evangelistic gospel of gameplay. And in Kullervo's case it wasnt really a surprise his #1 would get swapped for something else, it was quite clear after having tried him just a little bit and seeing the synergy of the rest of his kit and how it performed. Personally I replaced it because I had no intent on playing him as melee and had to go out of my way to make use of it. Keeping it would have left me with a dead skill slot and nothing else.

But it is a trend, the part I talked about i.e color choices. It has nothing to do with elitism, bullying or manipulation, it is just people thinking it is "funny" even though it is extremely unoriginal and kinda beaten like a dead horse at this point. It's like pink Rhinos or Grendels with angel wings when they were released, people using the combo like crazy as if it was original and not seen from miles away long before the actual release. And you claim it is to cause photosensitive seizures in order to get more kills, so are you also saying that those that use the bright colors are somehow immune to them? Just reduce the effects for team mates if you think it is a problem, something those that bring the bright colors cannot do.

In the end it sounds more like anything you dont like personally is meta and bad due to that, or it is done specifically to hurt you. That to me sounds like mirror-Elitism and nothing else, especially when there is the choice to go solo or with pre-mades to avoid these things. Just as the elitist people that want a specific performance in their runs can avoid pugs and go solo or with pre-mades. Us that dont give a flying squat if someone brings bright colors, a very bad loadout, or full on meta, we'll continue to enjoy pugging without drama.

[schilds]

There's a meta?

In Warframe?

Hasn't been any for years.

[A-Flying-Brick]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Do you have any concrete proof of that wild claim? Since personally, from the point I started in 2017 I've had uhm maybe 5 bad experiences with players where they've actually acted elitist towards someone else in the group. I very much doubt that you sit down and try to talk with people regarding their choices in a group, and if you do I wouldnt be surprised if they get upset and touchy in such a high paced game cetnered around farming things. It isnt toxic to want to get as much out of your playtime as possible.

I dont see how the choice of colors turn into elitist behavior, or how meta equals elitist either. Since there is quite a huge step from simply wanting to be efficient to being one that demands it from everyone. I also dont see what is moronic about wanting to seek perfection in a game type that promotes it in order to get more out of the time you spend on the game. It is a huge part of these types of games, min-maxing and improving how efficient you can become.

You assume that everyone that plays meta follows "the meta". So us that dont follow anything and still end up with the meta, should we stop using it just because it has been confirmed as meta by some random content creator? That sounds like an extremely silly mindset, as silly if not more so than those that follow their favorite neon-god no-name to the letter of their neo-evangelistic gospel of gameplay. And in Kullervo's case it wasnt really a surprise his #1 would get swapped for something else, it was quite clear after having tried him just a little bit and seeing the synergy of the rest of his kit and how it performed. Personally I replaced it because I had no intent on playing him as melee and had to go out of my way to make use of it. Keeping it would have left me with a dead skill slot and nothing else.

But it is a trend, the part I talked about i.e color choices. It has nothing to do with elitism, bullying or manipulation, it is just people thinking it is "funny" even though it is extremely unoriginal and kinda beaten like a dead horse at this point. It's like pink Rhinos or Grendels with angel wings when they were released, people using the combo like crazy as if it was original and not seen from miles away long before the actual release. And you claim it is to cause photosensitive seizures in order to get more kills, so are you also saying that those that use the bright colors are somehow immune to them? Just reduce the effects for team mates if you think it is a problem, something those that bring the bright colors cannot do.

In the end it sounds more like anything you dont like personally is meta and bad due to that, or it is done specifically to hurt you. That to me sounds like mirror-Elitism and nothing else, especially when there is the choice to go solo or with pre-mades to avoid these things. Just as the elitist people that want a specific performance in their runs can avoid pugs and go solo or with pre-mades. Us that dont give a flying squat if someone brings bright colors, a very bad loadout, or full on meta, we'll continue to enjoy pugging without drama.

I have seen it personally and I've seen many other accounts of it. Including "meta" players bragging about such behavour. You start to notice it more if you do certain mission types or run certain builds. In longer missions I'll ask what people are farming and I'll be quick to point out if any skills are going to affect me. Toxic players will often spam those skills to spite me or others, make it hard for them to get kills or just rage for asking them to be considerate. Had multiple Volts and Wisps chase players around who said they didn't want Speed or Motes and spam it on them. Remember what I said about negatively affecting others? If you deliberately run out of affinity range, leaving people and objectives behind to "farm" that's toxic. If you want "as much out of your playtime as possible" and you're not doing it solo, like most people do when they want to farm, you can't get angry when the game fills the lobby with players who don't want to play that way.

As pointed out not everyone who has bright energy colours or a "meta" build is who we're talking about here. It's that small but very toxic subset who see the "meta" and being the best as the be all, end all. It becomes moronic when they don't learn from others and act like someone getting bigger numbers is a dirrect slight against them and not just someone who spent months perfecting their skills and build. Because it's not "meta" that person deserves to be harassed both verbally and/or with bright flashing lights.

Min-maxing is strange in Warframe as most things are trade-offs rather than any kind of min-max system. You can find mods/shards/incarnons to deal with many shortcomings on any gear. It's all very situational and the "best" thing you can do is have multiple different set ups to help you make the most of what you want to do. Also it's very dependant on personal playstyle and experiance, it's why new players often have trouble with shield-gating either due to not having most of the required mods (as many are behind things like Silver Grove or high tier bounties), the experiance with the game to be able to make the most of it or lack the frames to do it to any real noticeable effect.

I never said every "meta" player is like this, if anything I've stressed the point that this is just a subset of a subset problem but in addition that I'm not against anyone running certain builds for fun as long as it's not negatively affacting others. The more zealot meta players are the problem. The ones that cannot accept that a non-meta build in the hands of an experianced player can give better results than blindly copying and following "the meta". Instead of learning from this and improving based on what they've seen or asking the other player to share the build, they instead take it as a dirrect attack on them. Sure I just report them but it does put a bit of a downer on a play session having to put up with this behavour.

Can we not blame people for not disabling an obscure setting that likes to re-enable itself after some patches? Some settings like Bloom and effect intensity like to revert after patches and I've just given up on keeping it off. Also many people don't know that it is an option. You can only turn them all down, not only others, it would be nice for that to be changed to self and others like Somacords. Still even with it turned down white energy can be very bright expecially if fired at another player's viewpoint from a flashy explosive weapon.

As for it being a trend, this was touched on too. Most players are happy to kill the intensity of their energy colours when they learn how harmfull it can be. It's why I suggested some kind of in game warning that bright energy colours may cause discomfort for other players. Pink Rhinos and Angel Grendels are a nothing arguement here as this isn't someone purposefully causing actualy physical harm to another player over a video game. You get the same "kewl""trendy" colours/styles with less intensity from several pallets so it's not like it must be blinding white to look cool.

I could not care less what other people run. I care more that the lightglobe has died in my room because I need to go buy a replacement.

I do care about being harassed in a game I enjoy. 

[FBalfour]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And in Kullervo's case it wasnt really a surprise his #1 would get swapped for something else, it was quite clear after having tried him just a little bit and seeing the synergy of the rest of his kit and how it performed. Personally I replaced it because I had no intent on playing him as melee and had to go out of my way to make use of it. Keeping it would have left me with a dead skill slot and nothing else.

I respect swapping a skill because you personally don't use it. Hell, I do it with half my frames myself. I find myself greatly enjoying Kullervo's 1, as my balanced build allows me survivability and turns my melee attacks more powerful than a fully forma'd damage-focused Ironbride. I find myself nearly giddy with joy when I'm using an incarnon melee that is ready to fly, since it does activate the incarnon mode with no delay, and multiplies the damage significantly, though I've been having almost more fun popping my 3 on a squad, tapping 1 with my Syam, then heavy attacking the entire next room with 6 digit swings.

I do have a build that has swapped it out, as well! I replaced it for Tharros Strike. This was done to create a stationary god build that strips armor and focuses on ranged weaponry, while my primary mode is all about maneuverability. I swap between the 2 depending on the mission type I'm on.

All-in-all, I'm happy with how my frames are built and how they work for me. What I'm not happy with is the messages I receive mid-mission telling me that I'm wrong for keeping Wrathful Advance. 

That being said, I am building another Kullervo to subsume so I can see what happens when I replace Baruuk's Lull with Wrathful Advance. GIMME DEM SWEET RED CRIT DESERT STORM HITS.


Mmmmm.... delicious crits....

[FBalfour]

I JUST THOUGHT ABOUT A WRATHFUL ADVANCE GYRE.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

You guys are really splitting hairs. In reality, some people are not bright. They pay and guide-video their way through everything and then complain that things go too fast. It's just a kind of person. We can't fix humanity. 

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I have seen it personally and I've seen many other accounts of it. Including "meta" players bragging about such behavour. You start to notice it more if you do certain mission types or run certain builds. In longer missions I'll ask what people are farming and I'll be quick to point out if any skills are going to affect me. Toxic players will often spam those skills to spite me or others, make it hard for them to get kills or just rage for asking them to be considerate. Had multiple Volts and Wisps chase players around who said they didn't want Speed or Motes and spam it on them. Remember what I said about negatively affecting others? If you deliberately run out of affinity range, leaving people and objectives behind to "farm" that's toxic. If you want "as much out of your playtime as possible" and you're not doing it solo, like most people do when they want to farm, you can't get angry when the game fills the lobby with players who don't want to play that way.

As pointed out not everyone who has bright energy colours or a "meta" build is who we're talking about here. It's that small but very toxic subset who see the "meta" and being the best as the be all, end all. It becomes moronic when they don't learn from others and act like someone getting bigger numbers is a dirrect slight against them and not just someone who spent months perfecting their skills and build. Because it's not "meta" that person deserves to be harassed both verbally and/or with bright flashing lights.

Min-maxing is strange in Warframe as most things are trade-offs rather than any kind of min-max system. You can find mods/shards/incarnons to deal with many shortcomings on any gear. It's all very situational and the "best" thing you can do is have multiple different set ups to help you make the most of what you want to do. Also it's very dependant on personal playstyle and experiance, it's why new players often have trouble with shield-gating either due to not having most of the required mods (as many are behind things like Silver Grove or high tier bounties), the experiance with the game to be able to make the most of it or lack the frames to do it to any real noticeable effect.

I never said every "meta" player is like this, if anything I've stressed the point that this is just a subset of a subset problem but in addition that I'm not against anyone running certain builds for fun as long as it's not negatively affacting others. The more zealot meta players are the problem. The ones that cannot accept that a non-meta build in the hands of an experianced player can give better results than blindly copying and following "the meta". Instead of learning from this and improving based on what they've seen or asking the other player to share the build, they instead take it as a dirrect attack on them. Sure I just report them but it does put a bit of a downer on a play session having to put up with this behavour.

Can we not blame people for not disabling an obscure setting that likes to re-enable itself after some patches? Some settings like Bloom and effect intensity like to revert after patches and I've just given up on keeping it off. Also many people don't know that it is an option. You can only turn them all down, not only others, it would be nice for that to be changed to self and others like Somacords. Still even with it turned down white energy can be very bright expecially if fired at another player's viewpoint from a flashy explosive weapon.

As for it being a trend, this was touched on too. Most players are happy to kill the intensity of their energy colours when they learn how harmfull it can be. It's why I suggested some kind of in game warning that bright energy colours may cause discomfort for other players. Pink Rhinos and Angel Grendels are a nothing arguement here as this isn't someone purposefully causing actualy physical harm to another player over a video game. You get the same "kewl""trendy" colours/styles with less intensity from several pallets so it's not like it must be blinding white to look cool.

I could not care less what other people run. I care more that the lightglobe has died in my room because I need to go buy a replacement.

I do care about being harassed in a game I enjoy. 

Just that you point out to others that certain skills will affect you is toxic in its own sense, since you expect people in a pug to bend to your demands and your specific likes and dislikes, and presumable stop using those skills while you are there. Otherwise I see no reason why you mention something like that in a public group where people tend to go because they are OK with whatever. Same as with the Wisp and Volt, if people cannot accept getting buffed in a pug they shouldnt be in the pug to begin with, so it isnt odd the Wisp and the Volt will mess with them in such a case, since at that point the people pointing out their dislike for those skills want to change the gameplay of those frame players in their groups. I dont like Volts or Wisp buffs with too much strength investments, but I wont go and proclaim it to a pug group where I'm fully aware I might end up with people who have high strength Wisps and Volts. Because that would be toxic, expecting my dislikes should have priority. If it was a factual disadvantage to recieve a too high volt or wisp speed it would be different, but clearly the player using the frames with that strength handle it fine, so it isnt trolling or abuse, because in such a case it would ruin it just the same for the player using those frames. Which it clearly doesnt.

But how would you know which is which without talking to people on a constant basis in missions? You cant possibly know. And chances are that when you do, you've likely said something inappropriate to trigger those players you deem as "moronic". I'm also not sure what would even lead to a situation where someone would discuss the reason for their builds in a public group. How would it ever come naturally "are you a meta slave or do you just enjoy the build?" without sounding rude? And if a person struggles to find a build on their own, isnt the idea of looking at and following a meta exactly what you want, that people should learn from others i.e using builds from someone else? And like I said before, if someone verbally abuses someone for not running the "meta", that abusive person shouldnt be in a pug to begin with, just as someone getting hurt by others running "meta" shouldnt be in a pug either, since they demand specific outcomes from other players in a public random setting, which they shouldnt do to begin with.

That is the essence of min-max, to balance stats through trade offs to achieve the needed point you want for best performance. So in WF grabbing a certain weapon might allow you to invest more in a stat you might need but was unable to invest in by not having the specific weapon in question. Or how a certain shard might allow you to skip a mod to improve another stat you need that otherwise wasnt an option, or replace an arcane for another etc. And of course, it is dependant on playstyle. Min-max doesnt just apply to the meta, you can min-max whatever build you use so it works better. And like I said in my first post, meta isnt important in WF and the notion of a meta is quite silly since our power is way beyond the curve. So even with off meta picks you are likely maximizing efficiency anyways, however, the actual meta is still a thing, since on paper it is still the most efficient option compared to other picks.

The problem is that most builds will affect someone else "negatively", since that is simply how WF is set up, with min-maxed players being tossed into the same mission as a bambi, and that is a fundamental flaw of WF itself and players should not be punished for this. A min-maxed player should not be forced to pick a completely different build so the bambi can have a good time and feel relevant to the mission. The game is just too old for that and it is silly to think it is up to the vets to create a happy environment for new comers, or for a min-maxer to consider going slower because someone else might prefer it. Also again I wonder how anyone can possibly know the build of another unless it for some obscure reason comes up as a discussion in a group. Things simply die too fast to ever stop and consider what build anyone else is running. The only time I ever consider someone not pulling their weight is when someone just stands there and literally does nothing, with no animations coming from them and so on. Other than that I have yet to run into a situation where killing is so slow that I wonder "hmm who is the cause of this travesty!?". So this seems more to be a discussion popping up in a public run when someone gets upset for not getting to kill because others are already wiping the map, and this person starts throwing a tantrum and telling others to stop killing with their "meta slave" build. Or maybe it is that "off-meta" person starting to talk crap when pulling off better kills than the "meta slaves" in the group. Both in the end being toxic behavior since nothing needs or should be expressed in either case since you are in a pug to begin with.

We shouldnt blame those using bright colors either, since they are just as much affected by it as the others in the group. They might actually... enjoy their color choices? I know it is a shocking thought, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. I mean I would never pick bright colors, but if someone else enjoys it who am I to judge? It's like in real life, I cannot stand the duckbill lips and inflated ass "beauty" idea spawned from horrendous shows like Geordie Shore etc. But someone else out there likely has a wierd Howard the Duck kink and likes it. Good for them I say, even though when I see one of those duck people in public I kinda wanna throw up a little.

Overall we can just look at how some people use third party filters in games when it comes to lighting and such, and what some may consider "beautiful" graphics. With lighting and bloom so intense that it would even make a light elf sick most likely. Or heck, just when you visit someone and they've "calibrated" their TV or something and the lighting, saturation, contrast and so on is all over the place, while they think it looks great. In the end people and their tastes are just odd to say the least.

10 hours ago, FBalfour said:

I do have a build that has swapped it out, as well! I replaced it for Tharros Strike. This was done to create a stationary god build that strips armor and focuses on ranged weaponry, while my primary mode is all about maneuverability. I swap between the 2 depending on the mission type I'm on.

I really liked Tharros on him aswell. Gets a decent range with a ranged build, plus it brings another healing option to him.

Edited July 11, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2023-07-10 at 10:56 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Do you have any concrete proof of that wild claim? Since personally, from the point I started in 2017 I've had uhm maybe 5 bad experiences with players where they've actually acted elitist towards someone else in the group. I very much doubt that you sit down and try to talk with people regarding their choices in a group, and if you do I wouldnt be surprised if they get upset and touchy in such a high paced game cetnered around farming things. It isnt toxic to want to get as much out of your playtime as possible.

I dont see how the choice of colors turn into elitist behavior, or how meta equals elitist either. Since there is quite a huge step from simply wanting to be efficient to being one that demands it from everyone. I also dont see what is moronic about wanting to seek perfection in a game type that promotes it in order to get more out of the time you spend on the game. It is a huge part of these types of games, min-maxing and improving how efficient you can become.

You assume that everyone that plays meta follows "the meta". So us that dont follow anything and still end up with the meta, should we stop using it just because it has been confirmed as meta by some random content creator? That sounds like an extremely silly mindset, as silly if not more so than those that follow their favorite neon-god no-name to the letter of their neo-evangelistic gospel of gameplay. And in Kullervo's case it wasnt really a surprise his #1 would get swapped for something else, it was quite clear after having tried him just a little bit and seeing the synergy of the rest of his kit and how it performed. Personally I replaced it because I had no intent on playing him as melee and had to go out of my way to make use of it. Keeping it would have left me with a dead skill slot and nothing else.

But it is a trend, the part I talked about i.e color choices. It has nothing to do with elitism, bullying or manipulation, it is just people thinking it is "funny" even though it is extremely unoriginal and kinda beaten like a dead horse at this point. It's like pink Rhinos or Grendels with angel wings when they were released, people using the combo like crazy as if it was original and not seen from miles away long before the actual release. And you claim it is to cause photosensitive seizures in order to get more kills, so are you also saying that those that use the bright colors are somehow immune to them? Just reduce the effects for team mates if you think it is a problem, something those that bring the bright colors cannot do.

In the end it sounds more like anything you dont like personally is meta and bad due to that, or it is done specifically to hurt you. That to me sounds like mirror-Elitism and nothing else, especially when there is the choice to go solo or with pre-mades to avoid these things. Just as the elitist people that want a specific performance in their runs can avoid pugs and go solo or with pre-mades. Us that dont give a flying squat if someone brings bright colors, a very bad loadout, or full on meta, we'll continue to enjoy pugging without drama.

Ive been playing since 2017 (i think) as well. At least since the time they took out raids. And ive only had actual bad experiences with meta riders a handful of times and most of that was in eidolon hunts. 

18 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I have seen it personally and I've seen many other accounts of it. Including "meta" players bragging about such behavour. You start to notice it more if you do certain mission types or run certain builds. In longer missions I'll ask what people are farming and I'll be quick to point out if any skills are going to affect me. Toxic players will often spam those skills to spite me or others, make it hard for them to get kills or just rage for asking them to be considerate. Had multiple Volts and Wisps chase players around who said they didn't want Speed or Motes and spam it on them. Remember what I said about negatively affecting others? If you deliberately run out of affinity range, leaving people and objectives behind to "farm" that's toxic. If you want "as much out of your playtime as possible" and you're not doing it solo, like most people do when they want to farm, you can't get angry when the game fills the lobby with players who don't want to play that way.

As pointed out not everyone who has bright energy colours or a "meta" build is who we're talking about here. It's that small but very toxic subset who see the "meta" and being the best as the be all, end all. It becomes moronic when they don't learn from others and act like someone getting bigger numbers is a dirrect slight against them and not just someone who spent months perfecting their skills and build. Because it's not "meta" that person deserves to be harassed both verbally and/or with bright flashing lights.

Min-maxing is strange in Warframe as most things are trade-offs rather than any kind of min-max system. You can find mods/shards/incarnons to deal with many shortcomings on any gear. It's all very situational and the "best" thing you can do is have multiple different set ups to help you make the most of what you want to do. Also it's very dependant on personal playstyle and experiance, it's why new players often have trouble with shield-gating either due to not having most of the required mods (as many are behind things like Silver Grove or high tier bounties), the experiance with the game to be able to make the most of it or lack the frames to do it to any real noticeable effect.

I never said every "meta" player is like this, if anything I've stressed the point that this is just a subset of a subset problem but in addition that I'm not against anyone running certain builds for fun as long as it's not negatively affacting others. The more zealot meta players are the problem. The ones that cannot accept that a non-meta build in the hands of an experianced player can give better results than blindly copying and following "the meta". Instead of learning from this and improving based on what they've seen or asking the other player to share the build, they instead take it as a dirrect attack on them. Sure I just report them but it does put a bit of a downer on a play session having to put up with this behavour.

Can we not blame people for not disabling an obscure setting that likes to re-enable itself after some patches? Some settings like Bloom and effect intensity like to revert after patches and I've just given up on keeping it off. Also many people don't know that it is an option. You can only turn them all down, not only others, it would be nice for that to be changed to self and others like Somacords. Still even with it turned down white energy can be very bright expecially if fired at another player's viewpoint from a flashy explosive weapon.

As for it being a trend, this was touched on too. Most players are happy to kill the intensity of their energy colours when they learn how harmfull it can be. It's why I suggested some kind of in game warning that bright energy colours may cause discomfort for other players. Pink Rhinos and Angel Grendels are a nothing arguement here as this isn't someone purposefully causing actualy physical harm to another player over a video game. You get the same "kewl""trendy" colours/styles with less intensity from several pallets so it's not like it must be blinding white to look cool.

I could not care less what other people run. I care more that the lightglobe has died in my room because I need to go buy a replacement.

I do care about being harassed in a game I enjoy. 

Like the other guy said.

 

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

 Zoom out for a second. Why exactly are you guys worried about this so much? Sure, some people are dummies who ruin the expirience for themselves... But that seems like an unavoidable issue that doesn't have to darken your day. Why put so much effort into articulating all this? Are you guys worried that it will bankrupt DE or something? 

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

Bro you beat a dead horse here, do you know how many times I've seen this argument come across my screen in the almost 9 years that I've been playing this game? 

"meta" doesn't exist when you play solo. it's just you and your build, and no one to disturb you.

23 minutes ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

 Zoom out for a second. Why exactly are you guys worried about this so much? Sure, some people are dummies who ruin the expirience for themselves... But that seems like an unavoidable issue that doesn't have to darken your day. Why put so much effort into articulating all this? Are you guys worried that it will bankrupt DE or something? 

Exactly. People are going to play a game however they want and utilize a play style that they choose. We cannot dictate that, so there's no reason for someone to be that fussy over something they cannot control. For the longest time I've told others, if you don't enjoy other players in your squad then learn to do things solo. 

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tanta Cinta said:

Exactly. People are going to play a game however they want and utilize a play style that they choose. We cannot dictate that, so there's no reason for someone to be that fussy over something they cannot control. For the longest time I've told others, if you don't enjoy other players in your squad then learn to do things solo. 

Well, I think some debate is warrented. But the amount of over-articulated drama reasoning can be impressive at times. In reality there are several things that require creative ideas, not melodramatic exchanges. 

• There would need to be a change to the mechanics of the game that would invalidate highly specific builds, such as randomized Warframe stats (just an example).
• Content creators make money because of their build videos, so they would probably make negative feeback videos about anything that messes with that.
• DE has to be convinced that it wouldn't hurt new players, who already have very few guiding lights. 

 

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

On 2023-07-07 at 3:57 AM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Because Kullervo doesn't have shields, you can't shield-gate. Which threatens the shield-gating meta

One warframe... out of... the 92 something we have (including primes)... threatens shield-gating? 

Kullervo on release absolutely was a glass cannon, and you had to invest in his survivability rather than investing in his kit alone. I appreciated the versatile change in building him; piecing together my different subsumed abilities and arcane combos to get the best of him was nice, but there comes a point when a warframe's performance limit is already superimposed by the standards set by other frames, and Kullervo was dropping the ball quite early. Even with all the armor and health in the world, he could get popped by an unexpected fire eximus out of nowhere.

His overguard buff is a warm welcome, and it allows for more risk-taking with his kit. You can do more with him for less now and actually focus your builds into something. I don't care if he gets shield gating, I've never taken advantage of it because I think it's quite a dumb thing to do. With more tweaks to his overguard, plus his killing potential and careful playing, you shouldn't need it anyway.

[FBalfour]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tanta Cinta said:

Kullervo on release absolutely was a glass cannon, and you had to invest in his survivability rather than investing in his kit alone. I appreciated the versatile change in building him; piecing together my different subsumed abilities and arcane combos to get the best of him was nice, but there comes a point when a warframe's performance limit is already superimposed by the standards set by other frames, and Kullervo was dropping the ball quite early. Even with all the armor and health in the world, he could get popped by an unexpected fire eximus out of nowhere.

Wait... I had to what? Damn. Guess I have to redo clearing multiple planets on Solo SP with kit-focused Kullervo so I can fail. Gotta keep superimposed limitations there and drop the ball for y'all.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 minutes ago, FBalfour said:

Wait... I had to what? Damn. Guess I have to redo clearing multiple planets on Solo SP with kit-focused Kullervo so I can fail. Gotta keep superimposed limitations there and drop the ball for y'all.

An athlete being able to complete the tour de france on a mountain bike doesnt mean a mountain bike is comparable to the purpose built road bikes everyone else is using.

[FBalfour]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

An athlete being able to complete the tour de france on a mountain bike doesnt mean a mountain bike is comparable to the purpose built road bikes everyone else is using.

That is an interesting way to say "You're a badass, and this change makes it so other people can get to your level and also allows you to exceed your own limitations."

I like it.

I'm gonna go ahead and sum up this thread for those who don't want to read through it:

P1: "Hey everyone, let's all be decent people and not be jerks about people not playing the meta. Also, let's try to be kind and courteous to others!"
P2: "No."
P3: *Well thought out points about caring about other people*
P4: *blatant disregard for what other people say and feel, putting words in their mouths etc.*
P5: *Memes about Kullervo*

Edited July 12, 2023 by FBalfour
grammar

[A-Flying-Brick]

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just that you point out to others that certain skills will affect you is toxic in its own sense, since you expect people in a pug to bend to your demands and your specific likes and dislikes, and presumable stop using those skills while you are there. Otherwise I see no reason why you mention something like that in a public group where people tend to go because they are OK with whatever. Same as with the Wisp and Volt, if people cannot accept getting buffed in a pug they shouldnt be in the pug to begin with, so it isnt odd the Wisp and the Volt will mess with them in such a case, since at that point the people pointing out their dislike for those skills want to change the gameplay of those frame players in their groups. I dont like Volts or Wisp buffs with too much strength investments, but I wont go and proclaim it to a pug group where I'm fully aware I might end up with people who have high strength Wisps and Volts. Because that would be toxic, expecting my dislikes should have priority. If it was a factual disadvantage to recieve a too high volt or wisp speed it would be different, but clearly the player using the frames with that strength handle it fine, so it isnt trolling or abuse, because in such a case it would ruin it just the same for the player using those frames. Which it clearly doesnt.

But how would you know which is which without talking to people on a constant basis in missions? You cant possibly know. And chances are that when you do, you've likely said something inappropriate to trigger those players you deem as "moronic". I'm also not sure what would even lead to a situation where someone would discuss the reason for their builds in a public group. How would it ever come naturally "are you a meta slave or do you just enjoy the build?" without sounding rude? And if a person struggles to find a build on their own, isnt the idea of looking at and following a meta exactly what you want, that people should learn from others i.e using builds from someone else? And like I said before, if someone verbally abuses someone for not running the "meta", that abusive person shouldnt be in a pug to begin with, just as someone getting hurt by others running "meta" shouldnt be in a pug either, since they demand specific outcomes from other players in a public random setting, which they shouldnt do to begin with.

I don't demand they bend to my demands, I'm asking for them to be considerate, just as I would be if someone asked me to cool it with my Speed or Motes. Fun fact Wisp's shock mote can ruin certain builds by doing the last tick of damage, it's good manners in that case to be considerate in their placement and not, for example, chase the aformentioned player around placing motes constantly at their feet or leaving them at chokepoints. Speed makes certain areas imposible to traverse, expecially if spammed. Never asked for obedience, just consideration for others.

Still nice victim blaming there buddy. 90% of the time I'm completely silent and they just arc up all on their very own against anyone they take exception too. That's when I check their build/profile. When I speak it's repectful and to the point. "Hey Volt/Wisp can you be careful with your Speed/Motes, it's making it difficult to play." and that's normally only as Titania because that's the frame that will combine herself with the architecture if they're spamming those skills. Or in the case of bright energy, "Hey that's a little bright, you might want to tweak the colours a little bit." Most people are open and it's normally a case of not knowing or it being the default or a quick coppy from their frame, it's just a tiny % that decide that I'm asking for eye strain. Other times I'll say that I'm trying for a certain rotation so they will sabotage that by delibrately failing objectives or not contributing.

Still most of the time I suck it up because it's a short mission and I probably won't see them again.

I'm not trying to dictate a playstyle, just attitudes. This subset of a subset ruin the game for others and that is what the thread is about, not DE cracking down on certain playstyles or me wanting everything to be perfect. It's a bunch of self entitled elitist players who go out of their way to ruin it for others. It's something that as a community we need to address.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

Well, I think some debate is warrented. But the amount of over-articulated drama reasoning can be impressive at times. In reality there are several things that require creative ideas, not melodramatic exchanges. 

• There would need to be a change to the mechanics of the game that would invalidate highly specific builds, such as randomized Warframe stats (just an example).
• Content creators make money because of their build videos, so they would probably make negative feeback videos about anything that messes with that.
• DE has to be convinced that it wouldn't hurt new players, who already have very few guiding lights. 

 

DE is actually doing a pretty good job on that front. There's enough different viable builds that just about anything can be somewhat viable if you put enough effort in. With Arcanes dropping from Duviri, it means they're much more available to new players who might not want to deal with farming Eidolons or the people who expect you to sell a kidney to afford their prices.

As for melodrama, I did point out the market manipulation stuff is a bit of conspiracy theory but I'm already starting to see a few creators saying Harrow+Knell already being "questioned" as the next meta. Sure he's a good frame but the timing is a little too convenient with him getting vaulted soon. As for the Kullervo stuff, I do like he has a bit more survivability but he has not been out long enough to be able to make statements like "his 1 is weak, replace it". For example it counts as a heavy attack, adding a ton of combinations to investigate and master before writing it off as "weak".

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

First off, as long as you're having fun and not ruining the game for others, go off. Use whatever frames, weapons, pets, etc you want. I wish that wasn't a "controversial" statement but to some it is. 

 

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

 

• Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst.

nice way to contradict yourself. oh boy. off to a good start already. "oh yeah use any warframe you want but f this one in particular." Nice way to combat meta or whatever. Toxic asf.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

A lot of people ask "what is meta?", you'll hear people say it stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available" which is not the case, especially in Warframe. Metagaming is a stratergy where you use knowledge gained from outside of the game to craft a better strategy. It's observing others then experimenting with what's available to succeed and advance. Not running Wukong Limbo Octavia Revenant because that's the "agreed upon" meta this week.

wrong. Meta is a made up belief that there is a "perfect" strategy to a video game created by elitist, privileged, egotistical aholes so they can have some form of self pity or love (lol) and generally an advantage over others; a god complex manifested and people are gullible enough to follow said "god."

gotta clear things up.

Wukong by no means is overpowered. Prior to his nerf he did afk the game but like literally just macro.

limbo was never meta.

octavia also has never been meta. 

revenant is pre rework wukong. only that now he has one other good ability via helminth, and doesn't have iron jab.

but at the same time, people only agree because it's opinionated and non factual.

"InArOs CaNnOt SuRvIvE" idk man ran level 5k+ circuit steel path the other night tanked perfectly fine....kinda hard to survive when you stand in one spot lmfao.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Well how is it toxic? On the surface it's not. But sadly there is a very small but vocal group who will openly berate anyone who even slightly steps out of line and ruin missions if they don't get the biggest number or 3 players who will bindly worship them for being the best. Their current "meta" is shield gating on everything. For those who don't know, when your shield breaks you get a small invulnerability window. So running minmal shields (normally with a Decaying Dragon Key) allows the user to spam that window. It's a somewhat tricky strategy, that I really don't believe is that effective, that is also rough for newer players who don't understand the finer mechanics of the game and why all these people recommend it.

It's completely obvious it's toxic in nature.

refer to the comment about the meta lords. got the reputation of a discord moderator.

probably because shield gate quite literally made warframes like banshee not die in one shot. shield gate is a good thing as it allows many warframes to become relevant in recent content. that's not a meta thing. that's an intended game mechanic and from what DE said they aren't removing it.

to be fair new players aren't going to understand anything about the game due to the lack of information. probably why so many flock to these incredibly garbage players. actual good players don't play pve. they play the conclave due to the sheer amount of boredom pve brings considering all of their builds quite literally clap steel path no issue. One has a hydroid that nukes steel path. 

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Another reason it's not great is that it is very weak to toxin and to a less extent magnetic damage. Toxin bypasses shields and magnetic does bonus damage to shields. They will never adapt, only complain when they get insta-dropped by an Infested Osprey.

I can also say the same for how you can't adapt to a mechanic that was introduced years ago. or how the community couldn't overcome overguard despite being hilariously irrelevant on release. or how people complained about arbitrations restricting self reviving/reviving entirely.

any time de adds difficulty or a new mechanic people complain about it resulting in them giving up. imagine that, adfter 10 years of development, the staff of DE give up on trying to make the people who want an endgame happy because it's quite literally impossible to do so.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Another example of negative metas is the camping meta on Survival missions. Camping lowers the number of kills you can get because all the spawns have to travel to the corner all the players are in. This often leads to not enough life support dropping. 

oh no somebody doesn't want to have to move around in a farming game

tbf if this was a legitimate issue it's probably the direct result of having a poor kpm.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Another flaw with this plan is that it is very easy for certain units to rush that corner, particularly Infested Ospreys and Eximus units.

consider me a magician, but they generally disappear before I notice they had an overguard value.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Trying to explain that to meta players is like pulling teeth because "that's not how it works" or "it's the meta to camp". A much better option is to find a large open room (more doors the better) where life support modules are. 

It's because you're trying to explain game mechanics to people that never learned it due to having said god complex. They believe their opinion is truth and fact and because people accept it as such they refuse to say otherwise lol.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

 There's a few each map and you can always move if all the life support is used up. But you will always get meta players who will sit in a corner, pulling spawns (making less life support drop for the big room) and ruining it for others. Sure high damage builds can deal with those units but there is still not enough life support. It can no longer drop from Warframe abilities that cause extra drops and it's drop rate has be drastically nerfed as well. You need to get out there and get kills.

nonissue if you can kill enemies. this was generally an issue even without camping because enemies weren't spawning at all regardless, the fix to it is enemy radar. You're welome.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Some might ask, why does this thread exist? And it's existance is due to seeing how meta players have reacted to Kullervo (and Duviri as a whole). There have been posts calling Kullervo "a glass cannon, like Inaros". I spat my drink when I saw that. In my experiance (from Circuit) and my friend's experiance from farming him day 1 and using him ever since is that he is like Inaros, a beast in the right hands. 

ah yes the whole "my friend said this is good therefor it is correct" trope.

inaros sucks. not because of the lack of shield gate. because he literally has no use and the fact that revenant does what he does in one button press is depressing as all hell. seriously. him having no shields is fine. His issue is having quite literally the most borderline useless abilities in the game.

passive? sevagoth and now last gasp FAR EXCEED what it could ever hope to achieve.

dessication? every warframe has a cc ability, this is helminth, and it sees NO USE.

devour? oh wow let me sit in one spot immune doing nothing.

sandstorm? please for the love of god do not make me explain why this ability is bad?

scarab swarm? lol only for augment and even that is trash when compared to spellbind. 25 energy without removing defenses and it's subsumable. and if you think that ability as a helminth is bad, case and f'ing point.

a glass cannon is a compliment in many regards. banshee, saryn, khora, and volt are examples of warframes that have relatively low survivability yet insane damage output.

kullervo as a matter of fact I'd argue is insanely overpowered and if it wasn't for the fact that overguard doesn't gate damage currently he'd be by far one the most powerful warframe ever created.

passive is nuts for heavy attacks

his 1 is nuts for criticals without needing to build for it on your melee weapon 

his recompense if able to reliably tank damage is god tier in terms of damage reduction

his 3 currently competes with saryn in terms of nuking and that's saying a lot.

storm of ukko is also really damn busted simply for building combo for you without needing to build combo on your melee further pushing his ridiculous heavy attack nuking potential.

kullervo is inaros done right. just saying. 

I'd spit out my drink too, however, if someone considered inaros to be a glass cannon. do NOT compare the sheer power of kullervo to the wimp that is inaros. they are polar opposites.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Because Kullervo doesn't have shields, you can't shield-gate. Which threatens the shield-gating meta and the value of rare shield mods like Brief Respite. Yes I know they just updated him to make him able to sorta shield-gate but that'll just make the meta players go off at any healer who dares give them any extra overguard from healing them.

at that point however overguard is potentially a stronger shield gate considering it replaces a 400 day login minimum required mod that also takes 16 drain. it is really good. 

I think that he needs a gate because enemy damage scaling has never been addressed. if it ever is, he would be quite literally the frame that replaces revenant entirely.  cannot express how considerably good kullervo is of a warframe design.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

There's this real "f-k you, got mine" mentally with many of these players. For example, they are not happy you can earn certain arcanes from circuit, because they had to grind or pay for them. 

yeah sadly that is the case. tbh I want to petition for DE to uncap the block list.

in a game literally about farming, people complain about farming. classic.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Previously they were only from Eidolon hunts and events like Operation: Orphix Venom when many of these users farmed them in large numbers and have been selling them for shockingly high prices. 

originally they were obtained from a respectively well designed endgame called trials. Law of Retribution (Nightmare) and The Jordas Verdict. The trials unfortunately got buggier by the update (similarly to eidolons today) and got removed because DE couldn't do enough to fix them. I sure do miss them.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

They're openly hostile at the idea that regualar players can get them easier now and that the new content isn't high level endgame stuff but instead a better opportunity for everyone to get good gear without grinding or paying their prices. 

would be too if I took all of that time to farm it. When the conclave spokesperson complained about universal medallions applying to the conclave, everyone considered them to be an ahole despite having a relatively valid argument.

Let's say that you have two workers at a job. One has worked at said job for 30 years of their life. The other has just started. The new hire gets offered more pay for less work and time than the person who worked 30 years to get the same pay. Picture it. Is that okay?

they are comparable. Time holds value as you can never get it back. Both are time wasted. Both have their value tarnished. It isn't a matter of trade pricing, it's a matter of screwing over the people that dedicated time to playing a mode that got abandoned anyway.

now, the way they handle it I won't justify. However, I will say being upset there's no compensation makes sense.
 

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Another example is the sheer hostility they have towards players who don't follow the meta. The amount of vitriol I've seen is shocking. I had one last week who went off at me for explaining to a new player how Lichs work.

1. They told me to "stop talking and shoot" as they ran their current meta Revenant build.

2. I was Octavia (very non meta build) and got higher numbers while typing the whole time. They were very angry when I pointed that out. The defence target took no damage either.

3. Another example of this vitriol is Limbo players.

4. I've mentioned how desperately Limbo needs a rework to remove the toxic elements built into his kit as they will spam Banish on players and spam their Cataclysm to the annoyance of others.

5. They will go off at you for, you know, wanting to be able to shoot enemies.

1. then ignore them.

2. this works too, lol. Anything to hurt their ego playing a poop warframe.

3. what's with you and limbo lol

4. it's almost as if that's limbo's entire purpose. though, not subsuming over banish is a pepega move. regardless of meta. You can run silence or breach surge and limbo becomes completely unkillable, problem solved.  but as you said 

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

First off, as long as you're having fun and not ruining the game for others, go off. Use whatever frames, weapons, pets, etc you want. 

why bother stating this if you are going to proceed to make people feel bad for playing a warframe they like? You act as if this game has any means of providing valuable information to the newer player...not considering the horrible ability descriptions. I'm tired and don't want to type THE WALL that is quite literally a 52 page google document listing all of the information Warframe fails to provide to the player. Not even an example. It's kind of tiring at this point to reiterate how nobody understands how little the new player knows and generally the playerbase as a whole.

5. provide evidence of the claim. Kinda feeling this is a 

moment.

On 2023-07-06 at 8:57 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

The TL;DR is this:

• There's a vocal small subset of players who get big mad when someone gets bigger numbers than their "meta" build.
• New players are often fed false and misleading information under the guise of it being the only way to succeed.
• The "meta" is easily manipulated by farming/trading groups who want to maximise profits.
• Shield-gating is awful.
• Don't camp in Survival.
• Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst.

• yes slay hurt their ego.
• also the reason we have a meta. Why not lead by example?
• no. it's manipulated by people with recording equipment and a microphone, lol.
• it's literally what makes half of the roster viable.
• don't tell me how to play the game.
• People who hate on a specific warframe are the absolute worst, probably moreso than the meta nerds.

[A-Flying-Brick]

Huge wall talking about points that that's already been coved already throughout the thread.

I have a dislike for Limbo because he needs a rework to address multiple flaws that players are using to be toxic. I kept it to a minimum because there are many posts and threads covering the topic. As pointed out above "Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst." was the name of a previous thread and that was a satirical stab at the people who ran in to devote themselves to defending him.

As for shield-gating being awful, this was also touched on. It's a mechanic that is a useful tool for keeping yourself alive but it is not the be all, end all of "statergy" in the game. It becomes a detriment to other players when you either don't know how to use it properly or use it as a way to police others. The TL;DR was mildly satirical to see how many people actual read the thread before going off.

I'm not telling you how to play, just expressing that multiple widly accepted stratergies have glaring flaws that many players ignore because "it's the meta to do it that way". As well as offering other viable methods to achieve the same or in some cases better results.

Content creators aren't really to blame, some are because they encourage toxic behavour, but most are chill and trying to make fun and interesting builds. It's not their fault if a bunch of toxic players declare it the new meta.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Ive been playing since 2017 (i think) as well. At least since the time they took out raids. And ive only had actual bad experiences with meta riders a handful of times and most of that was in eidolon hunts. 

Same. The only other "elitist" I can recall was a Valkyr complaining about a Limbo in a group of 3 exalted users including the Valkyr herself. Even though being inside or outside the rift mattered jack and squat to any of us aside from the Limbo himself.

10 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I don't demand they bend to my demands, I'm asking for them to be considerate, just as I would be if someone asked me to cool it with my Speed or Motes. Fun fact Wisp's shock mote can ruin certain builds by doing the last tick of damage, it's good manners in that case to be considerate in their placement and not, for example, chase the aformentioned player around placing motes constantly at their feet or leaving them at chokepoints. Speed makes certain areas imposible to traverse, expecially if spammed. Never asked for obedience, just consideration for others.

Still nice victim blaming there buddy. 90% of the time I'm completely silent and they just arc up all on their very own against anyone they take exception too. That's when I check their build/profile. When I speak it's repectful and to the point. "Hey Volt/Wisp can you be careful with your Speed/Motes, it's making it difficult to play." and that's normally only as Titania because that's the frame that will combine herself with the architecture if they're spamming those skills. Or in the case of bright energy, "Hey that's a little bright, you might want to tweak the colours a little bit." Most people are open and it's normally a case of not knowing or it being the default or a quick coppy from their frame, it's just a tiny % that decide that I'm asking for eye strain. Other times I'll say that I'm trying for a certain rotation so they will sabotage that by delibrately failing objectives or not contributing.

Still most of the time I suck it up because it's a short mission and I probably won't see them again.

I'm not trying to dictate a playstyle, just attitudes. This subset of a subset ruin the game for others and that is what the thread is about, not DE cracking down on certain playstyles or me wanting everything to be perfect. It's a bunch of self entitled elitist players who go out of their way to ruin it for others. It's something that as a community we need to address.

But clearly all of that is personal opinion, since obviously the volt and wisp in these cases can traverse those parts perfectly fine since they are also affected by the same "troublesome" skill. And if shock mote for some odd reason manages to deal the last tick of damage, you are potentially doing something wrong, since the damage output of it is abyssmal, and that is likely the understatement of the year. It will not get the last tick on enemies often enough to screw up kill requirements, unless maybe you run very low content where things like Nourish also kills everything passively as they attack you. So you are making a problem out of something that isnt really real, since in such low content your build doesnt matter anyway and you dont need any of those build defining setups.

If you are silent 90% of the time then you possibly cannot know what their intent is or what build they use even. And for volts and wisps, it is pointless to say anything since when you do you are effectively trying to change their build and playstyle to fit yours. So it is a two way street, you cannot expect them to change to cater to you when you signed up for a pug run. Why cant you just "suck it up" instead and alter your playstyle for the mission? If you want special interaction go make a premade and have everyone be clear on things prior to the mission. You arent a victim in this, you are just someone that wants to use a different playstyle at the expense of others really.

Good and you should probably do so every mission when something doesnt fit you personally, since there are 53 unique frames out there now, with 100+ different playstyles or more. You are bound to run into super speed volts and wisps from time to time. I think the only time I open my mouth regarding skill use is when I run a low mission and someone sits with a max slow high reaching molecular prime or gloom slowing things down pointlessly, since we dont need the help from those skills in such low content. 

What attitude, that someone might enjoy a super fast Volt while you dont? Not everything can suit you or anyone else, that is just how it is. Even if someone might ruin it for someone else because of taste, it doesnt mean that player should change, since then all of a sudden the other player ruins it for them. Like I said, dont pug if you cant accept that random nature of the playerbase.

[Arnul.]

Hey, dont ask people to help you with steel path in chat than when you cant beat it cause you much rather use gas or electricy on your weapon. Meta is there for a reason. It lets you know how people are taking on steel path or profit taker etc.  with ease. But ah dont mind me I'm sure you have it handled.

[Arnul.]

On 2023-07-06 at 6:00 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Tell that to the people who tell me my Titania isn't viable and to try shield-gating.

Bruh lol... Titania is literally part of the meta. Maybe how you use her is not the meta way but she is certainly meta. How many titanias do you not see doing void fissures. Index? shes like the freaking goat in index. Titania is literally one of the top warframes. I dont know who told you she wasnt.

[Arnul.]

7 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I'm not telling you how to play, just expressing that multiple widly accepted stratergies have glaring flaws that many players ignore because "it's the meta to do it that way". As well as offering other viable methods to achieve the same or in some cases better results.

 

But how is shield gating affecting you whatsoever? It doesnt do anything to you. How someone else plays shouldnt have an effect on you whatsoever like using guns or warframes. Unless its an ability like Limbos like you said but even after the rework you literally can not troll with Limbo unless you dont have your... NOT SURE IF THIS IS COUNTED AS SPOILERS SO SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THOSE THAT HAVENT DONE WAR WITHIN. Unless you have your walking operator. An operator can interact with anything in the rift. There were times before the operator Limbo players would troll by looking elevators with their bubble but with operator you can just transfer in and interact with the elevator or anything else. And theres also just playing solo which is a lame suggestion but thats what I'm told constantly when I complain about other players.

 

I literally never had a single person being toxic telling me how to play. They suggest, they suggest but they're not being rude or anything. I had a clan mate 2 days ago ask what is good for steel path. I gave them advice. Theres really not many other ways to go around playing differently. At high levels pretty much everyone is using the same weapons and builds cause thats what works. Unless they buff the other damage types I dont see much diversity happening. Gas use to be good, not anymore. It looks like corrosive was nerfed so theres that too. Maybe buff other damage types to make them useful so people wont be using them same thing but its still gonna happen either way.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Sure I can follow the META. Clear every mission in under 3 minutes. But it gets dull after a few hours. Or I can put together a more engaging and interactive playstyle. Then I can enjoy doing mundane activities for days on end.

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

8 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Huge wall talking about points that that's already been coved already throughout the thread.

fair enough.

8 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I have a dislike for Limbo because he needs a rework to address multiple flaws that players are using to be toxic.

 

9 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I kept it to a minimum because there are many posts and threads covering the topic. As pointed out above "Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst." was the name of a previous thread and that was a satirical stab at the people who ran in to devote themselves to defending him.

I defend the warframe for being a good supportive warframe but to my credit I play with my clan mates in high endurance kuva survival as limbo. One cast of silence and eximus can't do anything. Considering how poorly DE has handled his current power, I doubt he needs a rework any time soon. Honestly, roll.
 

 

9 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

As for shield-gating being awful, this was also touched on. It's a mechanic that is a useful tool for keeping yourself alive but it is not the be all, end all of "statergy" in the game.

it is so long as enemy damage isn't capped. Believe me, I know it too damn well. Is it the best strategy? No. Hate it. But it works.

9 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

It becomes a detriment to other players when you either don't know how to use it properly or use it as a way to police others. 

context, senator? limbo or shield gate?

9 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

The TL;DR was mildly satirical to see how many people actual read the thread before going off.

yeah that's also fair, most people don't like to read.

9 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I'm not telling you how to play, just expressing that multiple widely accepted strategies have glaring flaws that many players ignore because "it's the meta to do it that way". As well as offering other viable methods to achieve the same or in some cases better results.

Nah. I think that what's important is spreading the word about how irrelevant meta truly is. If inaros can hit level cap, meta means nothing.

9 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Content creators aren't really to blame, some are because they encourage toxic behavour, but most are chill and trying to make fun and interesting builds. 

rare few do.

Gaz TTV called me a clown because I wanted to use my incarnon on base soma (stronger disposition) and that the augment wouldn't work on it, only to get clowned when he realized the garbage mod didn't work with the inarnon form. Then again he is self explanatory, complaining about everything and even insulted another youtuber because they joked about stealing content then he proceeded to tell them to go off themself. to an autist.

I respect knightmare frame to a point. Instead of being the guy that says his build is the only correct one, he explains how the mods work so people can make their own builds.
 

but then you get this

ah yes this aged like fine wine.

providing evidence GHS steals content from other people claims it as their own and ays "omg this is the best way"

pupsker used to be super toxic in the community if I need a source I will do some heavy searching.

here's some legitimate truth that needs to be spread about "meta."

that's the kind of content that needs to be put out there.

except for the kullervo part. I ran cap yesterday with kullervo. Vazarin dash. He wiped the entire room no issues.

but his talk about useless mods also is relevant. Like how low of a stat buff most parkour velocity mods give despite parkour velocity being an extremely useful stat.

generally speaking meta doesn't seem to make a huge difference in day to day gameplay. And the people that think so are completely arrogant.

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

Bruh lol... Titania is literally part of the meta. Maybe how you use her is not the meta way but she is certainly meta. How many titanias do you not see doing void fissures. Index? shes like the freaking goat in index. Titania is literally one of the top warframes. I dont know who told you she wasnt.

she's a good warframe but has never been meta.

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

But how is shield gating affecting you whatsoever?

it affects all warframes with shields /s

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

How someone else plays shouldn't have an effect on you whatsoever like using guns or warframes. 

most warframes have amazing synergy and interactivity. None in a negative way.

In the argument of banish, why complain? You can literally afk. +1 to this point made.

 

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

 Unless its an ability like Limbos like you said but even after the rework you literally can not troll with Limbo unless you dont have your... NOT SURE IF THIS IS COUNTED AS SPOILERS SO SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THOSE THAT HAVENT DONE WAR WITHIN. Unless you have your walking operator. An operator can interact with anything in the rift. 

specify what you are saying, we don't want to confuse them. Operator used to interact with the rift on release.

Operators are only directly affected by one ability: Blood Altar. No other warframe ability does. That being said, they can still interact with objects or enemies in the physical plane while being inside of cataclysm. 

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

There were times before the operator Limbo players would troll by looking elevators with their bubble but with operator you can just transfer in and interact with the elevator or anything else. 

Not limbo. 100% troll. 

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

And theres also just playing solo which is a lame suggestion but thats what I'm told constantly when I complain about other players.

I mean at the same time if you can't solo warframe and require someone else to do the heavy lifting don't go around complaining about the players that complain about your bad builds. No good build cannot solo anything the game throws at you.

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

I literally never had a single person being toxic telling me how to play. 

lucky.

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

They suggest, they suggest but they're not being rude or anything.

I assume they look at the loadout and figure you're newer to the game or uninformed and have a change of heart.

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

I had a clan mate 2 days ago ask what is good for steel path. I gave them advice. Theres really not many other ways to go around playing differently. At high levels pretty much everyone is using the same weapons and builds cause thats what works. 

No because they are brainwashed into thinking that's the only way to play.

What if I told you that hydroid can solo steel path survival?

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

Unless they buff the other damage types I dont see much diversity happening. Gas use to be good, not anymore. 

because of a bug that gave it higher stealth multipliers. Even if the proc remained the same, applying toxin, without the stealth bug it would still be bad.

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

It looks like corrosive was nerfed so theres that too. 

it wasn't. permanent strip was removed but you wouldn't want full strip if you plan on modding for corrosive because then it would be a damage decrease for the multipliers.

1 hour ago, Im__nobody said:

Maybe buff other damage types to make them useful so people wont be using them same thing but its still gonna happen either way.

I mean, there's primary frostbite so cold works. made my mk1 braton delete a level 1k corrupted vor. no issue.