The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

[IDystopiaI]

2 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Except for the fact that for all relevant content shield gating is in fact not the only viable option. People always lvl as the standard for this kind of stuff for whatever reason` even tho DE themselves have come out and said they will not ever balance the game around that kind of content. You dont need to shield gate for any of the games content besides going up to lvl cap content, which Ill say this again, hardly anyone actually does, and you get a whopping nothing from reaching said lvl cap so the fact that everyone this as the excuse is a bit absurd. And guess what we had in terms of viable options before shield gating was added? Thats right hardly anything, shield gating was the answer to the lack of viable options problem but now suddenly people are turning shield gating into the problem and its just ridiculous.

 

So the void fissure is a bit of a stretch but I guess is valid enough tho I feel its worth those bonuses cap at 2x which I personally feel is not worth the effort to get to that point just for the maximum value and I feel many others would feel the same. That said I do go on a hour or so sp surv fissure on occasion when its up so because of these small bonuses help with stocking upon steel essence on cracking relics for ducats and traces if Im not capped out so this point is completely unreasonable.

As for the defense point I find it completely absurd. Defense objectives were getting utterly demolished by high lvl enemies long before shield gating was ever around, shield gating did not cause tis problem so the fact you are seemingly blaming it is a bit ridiculous and another case of extreme exaggeration I was talking about. That said I do actually agree that defense has many issues Ive even made other topics about this myself but these have absolutely nothing to do with shield gating.

So fun fact regarding pillage you can actually call it back early to replenish shields faster, condemn Im less familiar as I dont use it often but from what I remember its pretty it restores very fast. And another thing is you can actually both of these abilities with the augur/brief respite and get 2 instances of shield gate for one cast in theory yet I dont see anyone talk about this which I find a little odd considering that people consider just one shield gate instance per cast crazy op.

We're probably going to keep disagreeing on points (and have been repeating ourselves for a while now) but I've been trying to make a point that we need better/alternative options to shield gating. If changes ever happen to Augur Mods/Brief Respite, we're probably stuck with frames that can go invisible being the only option. Shield/Health tanks both have hard limits to the amount of damage that can be absorbed, and this happens probably around ~2000 in Duviri (mission shortest amount of time for enemies to ramp up to this level, and the lower limit of where shield gating will consistently kick in preventing one-shots on my for my heavily shield focused warframes, and obviously non-shield focused frames run into issues much sooner. I just figured I would give some context to the level where my specific playstyle hits a wall. Still far from an accurate scale because of Decrees, and the randomness of Duviri. And even less relevant because rapid shield gating isn't exactly a thing here). 

Void missions are kind of the only thing that scale with endurance, I did try word that to imply there was a limited benefit. Maybe Arbitrations if you specifically want something on rotation C but that's really stretching the usefulness of playing a long mission.

For Defense (or when I've been talking about objectives in general) I was never blaming shield gating as the reason the objective has issues surviving. The point I was trying to make is that we need better ways to deal with keeping things alive that we essentially have no control over. With the Eximus Rework, we're very limited in what we can actually do to protect objectives. CC does not work on anything with Overguard (haven't really touched Duiviri since the last update so I don't know if the new hazards group Eximus, but the limited scope of where this works makes this irrelevant), and barriers like Frost's Snow Globe are ignored by their abilities. Healing abilities have a very limited effect on recovering health (passive regen is slow already). We don't really have access to abilities for passive damage reduction on an objective (no helminth-able abilities that I can think of), were limited in choice if we want to reduce the damage something takes i.e. Gara for Splinter Storm. (Chroma looks to be a % increase to armor and objectives in general are usually just health and shield I think, indicated by red hp bar, may be mission dependent though, or this is just a very unreliable way to judge if an ally has armor. Also not going to sacrifice fashion-frame for an ability) Improvements in this area can carry over to increasing the survival for other things like our warframes and Companions. (I've accidently let a lot of people bleed out in Archon missions because I've been desensitized to seeing the death message of someone's Vulpaphyla). Some mod or ability (transferable) to provide some protection to companions/allies/objectives or better healing would be a significant improvement, and is a better (multipurpose) solution than shield gating which is only able to provide reliable protection to ourselves. (it feels like the shield gating meta hinders fixes towards actual issues and why I call it a band-aid. It only fixes my survival and everything else still takes the same stupid amount of damage, with nothing to actually mitigate it. It's hiding the issue relative to your warframe but it continues to be an issue to everything else)

Not sure why anyone would use Augur/Brief respite together with Pillage/Condemn *with the exception of Harrow. They're redundant and you aren't getting anything extra out of running both of them. Either find a better ability if you're using Brief Respite/Augur, or drop the mods for something more useful. Harrow is already going to have Pillage/Condemn for most builds because you need to sacrifice shields for Penance. Depending on how much shield you have when you use Penance, you can use either of those types of mods to sacrifice your shields without tripping your shield gating. It's a very niche setup but considering Harrow has no shields after using Penance, it makes a pretty big difference between dying just because you used an ability at the wrong time and still having a grace period to figure out if you're hiding until you passively recover some shields, or if there is something you can shackle to keep yourself alive. (Harrow plays better as a Shield Tank than Shield Gate because of his already high base shields, and the amount of shields recovered by condemn.)

Hopefully this is a better explanation of why I don't think shield gating isn't good for the game as it's covering up issues. I'm not looking for some alternative way to make myself immortal (I think you implied that in an earlier comment), I want an alternative (not a replacement) that helps to keep something other than myself alive, or changes to how certain things interact with each other (my example of CC abilities vs Sentients compared to the alternative of Overguard invalidates everything, and raw damage is the only way to deal with it).

*My companion bleeding out in the Garuda Example was a subtle hint that just because my warframe doesn't care about how much damage it's taking doesn't mean everything else is going well in the mission. I probably should have stated this explicitly to make it clearer.

 

[(NSW)warfare3376]

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

We're probably going to keep disagreeing on points (and have been repeating ourselves for a while now) but I've been trying to make a point that we need better/alternative options to shield gating

See I dont disagree with you but we have been in this boat before, back before shield gating the optimal form of survivability was to camp one spot of the map. There will always be one method just like with any other meta that will stand out above the rest and all other options will be compared to it just like what we see with inaros be considered garbage just because he cant shield gate despite the fact that in all relevant content he is unkillable (tho ability wise is quite garbage).

 

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

For Defense (or when I've been talking about objectives in general) I was never blaming shield gating as the reason the objective has issues surviving. The point I was trying to make is that we need better ways to deal with keeping things alive that we essentially have no control over. With the Eximus Rework, we're very limited in what we can actually do to protect objectives. CC does not work on anything with Overguard (haven't really touched Duiviri since the last update so I don't know if the new hazards group Eximus, but the limited scope of where this works makes this irrelevant), and barriers like Frost's Snow Globe are ignored by their abilities. Healing abilities have a very limited effect on recovering health (passive regen is slow already).

Again, I dont disagree with you here, defense is in a very bad state right now. The biggest issue I see with it is the kill requirement that comes with it on top of the fact you also the target alive, Ive called it exterminate with extra steps in the past, like if there was a maximum time each wave can last so you can focus solely on defending the target and maybe some utilities like void def has with the lasers but instead of lasers it could be a temporary shield or a bust of healing it wouldnt be that bad.

 

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

We don't really have access to abilities for passive damage reduction on an objective (no helminth-able abilities that I can think of)

Could maybe use resonator, cant confirm its effectiveness but in theory it should help to some decree have no idea if it works on eximus. Another option is silence but that will only stop blitz eximus from blowing it up.

 

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

Improvements in this area can carry over to increasing the survival for other things like our warframes and Companions. (I've accidently let a lot of people bleed out in Archon missions because I've been desensitized to seeing the death message of someone's Vulpaphyla). Some mod or ability (transferable) to provide some protection to companions/allies/objectives or better healing would be a significant improvement, and is a better (multipurpose) solution than shield gating which is only able to provide reliable protection to ourselves.

Companions honestly need a better ai 1st, Ive noticed while messing around with the styanax aug and grinding out wisp prime and her weapons casually in normal path I hear the overguard break sound happen very often. Im thinking to myself there should be no way vulp should be losing the overguard as quickly as it is as I am literally final stand generating thousands of overgaurd for myself which in theory the vulp gets half of it and since the enemies are such low lvl and only last on screen for a second or two that there must be a hidden cap for companions that is very small or they just somehow draw that much aggro then just sit there and take it all. But I again agree they also need better survivability namely I want to see the link mods get reworked as they are pretty dumb and basically limits you to bulkier frames just to increase their survivability.

 

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

Not sure why anyone would use Augur/Brief respite together with Pillage/Condemn *with the exception of Harrow. They're redundant and you aren't getting anything extra out of running both of them.

I was mainly referring to pillage as in theory you can get a double shield gate from one cast with enough duration shenanigans as people seem to claim just the one 1.3 seconds of invulnerability per cast is super op that 1 ability being able to do it twice with one cast would be mega op albeit a bit niece.

 

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

Hopefully this is a better explanation of why I don't think shield gating isn't good for the game as it's covering up issues. I'm not looking for some alternative way to make myself immortal (I think you implied that in an earlier comment), I want an alternative (not a replacement) that helps to keep something other than myself alive, or changes to how certain things interact with each other (my example of CC abilities vs Sentients compared to the alternative of Overguard invalidates everything, and raw damage is the only way to deal with it). 

Yea I can understand that but when it comes to alternative options one will always be better and the wont be worth considering thats just how it goes,I mean just look at our weaponry options, we tons of very strong weapons stat wise however theres a very small handful that dominate the usage charts. and for alternatives to shield gating, heath tanking and to a lesser degree shield tanking are all viable options for all relevant content, its just people seem to only prioritize what can handle lvl cap despite the fact most will never bother going to anywhere near those lvls for whatever reson. That said of the things you want Id say the latter of the two would be the better solution as Ive said before that a full enemy and mission rework is long overdue.

[Silligoose]

16 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yet you ignore the fact that every time you take a hit you must spend energy to survive the nest hit, that adds up very quickly. If all you are doing is just standing there and face tanking everything just by spamming one ability you will in fact run out and die, in order for to actually work you need to be doing other things on top of restoring your shields, you have to keep moving and jumping around, you have to keep a steady kpm to fuel your shield gate, you  have to spend enough energy to fully regen your shields. You continue to ignore everything that goes into shield gating except for the invulnerability window, you are literally player type 3.

I didn't say all one does is stand around the whole time and pretending I said that is extremely disingenuous. I've highlighted what is possible in terms of facetanking with a Shield Gating build, specifically because it shows the imbalances that results from the mechanic in its current state. 

Using a Shield Gating also build doesn't mean you have to "keep moving and jumping around". If you have a shield gating setup with Frost, or Khora, or Limbo, or even Nyx, or some other frames with certain cc loadouts, a high level of constant movement is not needed. Do you really need someone to explain to you why? If you are using a shield gating build with a frame with invisibility, like Loki, or Ash, or Ivara, or Octavia, or another frame that uses a loadout that enables invisibility, there is no need to constantly move around and jump around either. Do you really need someone to explain to you why? I find it ironic that you think I'm ignoring various factors that influence how a shield gate build is played, yet at the same time you make absurd claims such as "you have to keep moving and jumping". No, you don't. Saying things like that shows how little you actually consider the various variables that goes into a build. Even claiming one needs a steady kpm to fuel shield gating is absurd (more on that later) and indicative of a lack of experience and understanding of the subject matter.

A point of contention is your claim that Shield Gating and health tanking is the same, which you believe to be true because one converts energy to a form of durability (shields or health respectively) by use of abilities. Will your next claim be health tanking and Mesmer Skin is the same because one has to expend energy for both as well and both aid in durability? 

Why would I talk about the basics of a shield gating setup and how tactical play differs depending on the frame and loadout regarding this point of contention, when the biggest difference in shield gating vs "healing your health bar" is shield gating allows one to tank any amount of damage or DPS that doesn't bypass the mechanics and by way of chaining one can do so for longer than some missions last, whereas health tanking can't do that.  It is not that I'm ignoring the tactical play. It is that it serves little purpose in this point of contention, especially if I assume you actually have some decent experience in shield gating, which seems more and more like an incorrect assumption. Are there other basics you need to be reminded of in this discussion? Do you need someone to remind you if doing Survival endurance runs you'd need kills for life support? Do you need someone to write out one can't just camp a room in Disruption because Demolishers actually need to be killed? 

16 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yes, I in fact do have experience with shield gating build. I however do not blatantly ignore everything that goes into shield gating, if you do not have a steady kpm to fuel your shield gating than you wont be able to shield gate very long, if you are putting yourself in a situation where you are spending more energy than you are receiving than you wont be able to shield gate very long, if you are not constantly to every tick of damage you take you will die. These you keep blatantly ignoring.

If you have experience in it, then why do you need to be spoonfed basics regarding it? 

What are you doing with your build or your playstyle to think energy is some massive issue in endurance runs? You talk about it as though you need a massive kill count to keep energy levels up. I already know you limited your builds because you thought you couldn't have efficiency in a Shield Gating build, but have you heard of Spectrosiphon, Equilibrium + Synth Deconstruct + Synth Fiber, Arcane Energize, Squad Energy Restore, Zenurik, not to mention newer options such as Archon Stretch and Archon Shards? I'm not going to list everything, because there are many, many ways to ensure one's energy economy is strong enough to support a shield gating build. Looking at the things you've said, you probably do need someone to spoonfeed you the basics, seeing as you (wrongly) claimed one can't build for efficiency in a shield gating build, seeing as how you (wrongly) claim people need to have a "hyper active" playstyle or "need to move and jump around" and now you (wrongly) claim a steady KPM is required to fuel you shield gating (more on that below). No, it isn't needed. You need to let go of those incorrect notions, because it seems they are leading to you struggling with Shield Gating setups needlessly.

The required KPM needed to maintain shield gating can vary greatly depending on the setup one uses. Some setups will get hit less than others, which influences KPM requirements. Some setups are more energy efficient than others. Some setups generate more energy than others passively. Some setups result in enemies dropping more energy orbs. You do not need have a steady KPM to fuel shield gating either - with some setups a burst of kills will result in a full energy bar that can grant 30+ instances of shield gating and depending on setup and mission type, you may get hit less than 10 instances per minute. Having a minute without any kills isn't a problem in terms of Shield Gating economy in that case. I suggest you go through some more resources to learn about shield gating and how different setups and loadouts work.

16 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

There is no negative impact, if youre doing under lvl 1k content you get to choose the very comfy health tank option or the way less comfy but stronger shield gate option. I dont know about you but that sounds like a fair tradeoff to me. If you want to go above those lvls then this argument becomes irrelevant as DE themselfs have come out and said that the game is not and will not be balanced around those lvls, yet despite this players go to these lvls anyway than complain about the enemy damage being so insane that you cant step outside a frost bubble without being instantly one hit. So what does DE do, they add shield gating and this has so far been one of the adjustments made specifically for that crazy high lvl content and likely remain that case a very long while, so if you dont want to have to relay on shield gate tanking than just dont go to those crazy high lvls simple as that. Now you could argue that circuit goes against that as the enemy scaling ramps up way faster than normal in which yea it does, it takes me on average 40-60 mins to reach 1300lvl+ enemies which is where I usually end the run which is significantly faster than normal, the thing you need to consider tho is that the decaying key along with the entire gear wheel is disabled during it meaning that shield gate builds unviable yet despite this players are not having any real difficulty acquiring all the awards that come fom it meaning this "negative impact" you keep binging up is nonexistent.

I've mentioned the negative impacts of Shield Gating on the game in its current form and you skipped over them, twice:

• it renders many healing mechanics moot against the higher enemy levels that shield gating can comfortably handle
• leads to glass canons becoming more durable than actual tanks
• leads to a higher defensive stat (shields) being worse at its intended function (durability) than minimum shield stats that are non-zero
• contributes to power creep in various ways by enabling greater range/strength/duration builds without the sacrifice of durability
• leads to the developers not actually being able to introduce content that can kill players without disabling or bypassing the mechanic (poor design) 
• importantly, as mentioned before, leads to a foundational balancing mechanic, enemy damage, not a viable tool for balancing anymore.

16 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

It defiantly was implied and if you didnt mean buffing warframe durability (which btw never actually said you did) than surely you mean reworking enemy damage to some decree like reducing their damage to reduce the one hits however thats effectively the same thig as buffing frame survivability. If one hits are removed entirely than there would be nothing stopping health tanking from being actually immortality, far more so than shield gating supposedly is. And you cant make enemy damage too weak otherwise the game becomes way too easy so naturally healing would have to take a huge nerf, problem with this tho is since game is a horde shooter and you are constantly surrounded by enemies and are basically never not being shot at you would have to play very similarly to how you plya now, you would have to spam abilities to keep everyone cced, or you would have to nuke everything down faster than they can kill you, or worst case scenario you would have to go back to hiding in a corner of the map and camp that spot. Shield gating was the best possible outcome as not only does it fit the fast paced space ninja style game more but it also encourages much more active play and more diverse builds.

Now I would agree that an enemy and mission rework, and I mean a huge rework not just damage sclaing, is long overdue, I even so much as joking said the only thing that can save warframe is warframe 2 at this point in the past, however pinning shield gating as the problem when it was originally the solution to the problem is not going to do anything and will lead to the situation getting worse.

It was not implied and I am very much against other durability options being buffed to be on par with Shield Gating, as should be obvious given my stance against Shield Gating and why I believe the mechanic in its current form is unhealthy for the game. 

The more reactive playstyle achieved by way of Shield Gating in its current form could've been achieved without it and without the imbalances that come with it. I again see you praising something that doesn't even fulfil its primary function properly (it does not prevent all one-shots), but again you stick your head in the sand pretending it does.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I didn't say all one does is stand around the whole time and pretending I said that is extremely disingenuous. I've highlighted what is possible in terms of facetanking with a Shield Gating build, specifically because it shows the imbalances that results from the mechanic in its current state. 

God you are really clinging onto that video like its some big gotcha moment huh. But in only proves the fact that you ignore everything that isnt "oh he pressed 2 and is now invulnerable". You ignore the fact that during a good portion of that vid he actually is not being shot at, you ignore the fact that every time he does get in the way of enemy fire and his molt he has to cast it earlier the other times, you ignore the fact that if he fails to recast molt in time for whatever reason he can take damage and potentially die which actually does happen need I remind you, and you are ignoring the fact that he is in fact not face tanking, this is face tanking. Notice the difference?

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Using a Shield Gating also build doesn't mean you have to "keep moving and jumping around". If you have a shield gating setup with Frost, or Khora, or Limbo, or even Nyx, or some other frames with certain cc loadouts, a high level of constant movement is not needed. Do you really need someone to explain to you why? If you are using a shield gating build with a frame with invisibility, like Loki, or Ash, or Ivara, or Octavia, or another frame that uses a loadout that enables invisibility, there is no need to constantly move around and jump around either. Do you really need someone to explain to you why? I find it ironic that you think I'm ignoring various factors that influence how a shield gate build is played, yet at the same time you make absurd claims such as "you have to keep moving and jumping". No, you don't. Saying things like that shows how little you actually consider the various variables that goes into a build. Even claiming one needs a steady kpm to fuel shield gating is absurd (more on that later) and indicative of a lack of experience and understanding of the subject matter.

I like how you trying to prove me wrong you instead do the exact opposite. Thats my whole point, you can not just sit still and face tank you have to be doing other things like moving and jumping around, or constantly be ccing enemies around, or distract enemies by some means you have to do other things its not just some magic invincibility.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

A point of contention is your claim that Shield Gating and health tanking is the same, which you believe to be true because one converts energy to a form of durability (shields or health respectively) by use of abilities.

So tell me what do you do in a health tank build? You tank a certain amount of damage then spend resources to heal back up so you can continue to tank more damage. What do you do with a shield gate build? Right the exact same thing but much more fast paced.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I already know you limited your builds because you thought you couldn't have efficiency in a Shield Gating build

Thing you fail to understand is that efficiency doesnt work in all builds. warframes have varying amounts of shields, yes some frame have an easier time with shield gating than others but that does not represent shield gating as a whole to every other frame theres many factors that go into that still blatantly ignored.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

when the biggest difference in shield gating vs "healing your health bar" is shield gating allows one to tank any amount of damage or DPS that doesn't bypass the mechanics and by way of chaining one can do so for longer than some missions last, whereas health tanking can't do that

Again, player type 3 mentality. You dont care about the actual facts of what goes into tanking that much damage and you ignore the fact that in all relevant content health taning does in fact do the exact same thing, you only focus on what it does in a lvl cap situation in which need I remind you DE themselves have said they will never balance the game around so the fact this excuse is being used so much is absurd.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Spectrosiphon, Equilibrium + Synth Deconstruct + Synth Fiber, Arcane Energize,

Requires kills to have that energy drop and energize has a 15 second cooldown. Also, they take up value space in a build in which shouldnt be necessary if shield gating was as op as you claim it is and doesnt require extra stuff to work right?

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Squad Energy Restore, Zenurik,

Energy restores have a 1 minute cooldown in sp and zenurik can actually hinder your shield gating ability if you unlocked inner might. If you didnt unlock inner might congrats you sill wont be able to face tank though raw shield gate spam and the 5 energy a second is not enough to endlessly spam and ability every 1.3 secs even with efficiency and at that point why not just use vazarin.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

it renders many healing mechanics moot against the higher enemy levels that shield gating can comfortably handle

Healing was never viable in those high lvls even before shield gating.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

leads to glass canons becoming more durable than actual tanks

Downright false, in all relevant content and hell even an hour into a sp survival if you put yourself in a dangerous spot you can easily die if you make a mistake where as if youre using a very tanky health build theres much more room for error. And thats ignoring the fact the bulkier frames can also shield gate themselves provided its not inaros nidus or kullervo tho both nidus and now kullervo have other one hit protection "gate" gate effects.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

leads to a higher defensive stat (shields) being worse at its intended function (durability) than minimum shield stats that are non-zero

Higher defense stats were always a hinderance for extremely high lvl content even before shield gating.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

contributes to power creep in various ways by enabling greater range/strength/duration builds without the sacrifice of durability

Sorta true but not entirely.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

importantly, as mentioned before, leads to a foundational balancing mechanic, enemy damage, not a viable tool for balancing anymore.

True, never has been and never will be.

 

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The more reactive playstyle achieved by way of Shield Gating in its current form could've been achieved without it and without the imbalances that come with it. I again see you praising something that doesn't even fulfil its primary function properly (it does not prevent all one-shots), but again you stick your head in the sand pretending it does.

Alright explain how that same style can be achieved and actually work in the horde shooter that is warframe where you are constantly surrounded by enemies and basically never not being shot at, and on top of that keep in mind these enemies can one hit you at very high lvls (which is what shield gating was specifically designed for) so tell me how you balance a mechanic around those extreme lvls without trivializing the rest of the like shield gating supposedly does. Again shield gating has been around for 3 years now and has not been changed, theres a reason for that.

[(NSW)Greybones]

55 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Alright explain how that same style can be achieved and actually work in the horde shooter that is warframe where you are constantly surrounded by enemies and basically never not being shot at, and on top of that keep in mind these enemies can one hit you at very high lvls (which is what shield gating was specifically designed for) so tell me how you balance a mechanic around those extreme lvls without trivializing the rest of the like shield gating supposedly does. Again shield gating has been around for 3 years now and has not been changed, theres a reason for that.

I can’t help but feel once more that you never got a sense/have yet to get a sense of what combat in Warframe can look like because you followed the typical approach of always being overbuilt for a mission using builds and loadouts better suited for content beyond where you took them to, all for the sake of easy and convenient grind until you hit unbalanced SP (with its rotten modifier foundations ill-suited for use as a measuring stick for what’s balanced, which makes it doubly weird that you seem to think shieldgating in general was introduced for the sake of players in SP) and started utilising shieldgate abuse as a means to survive because by that point you were convinced that the risk of death is never really a concern in the first place and being invincible, even if it requires a more active playstyle, was par for the course

If that’s correct, it’s gonna be a little hard to get on the same page because you and the game are reading from two different books

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I can’t help but feel once more that you never got a sense/have yet to get a sense of what combat in Warframe can look like because you followed the typical approach of always being overbuilt for a mission using builds and loadouts better suited for content beyond where you took them to, all for the sake of easy and convenient grind until you hit unbalanced SP

Honestly have no clue what youre talking about bud. Base star chart is a joke, the most minimal of builds are enough to clear them with ease and the enemies just tickle you for the most and even if you do somehow die you have 5 (7 with arcanes) whole free revives if your teammates dont manage to pick you up so(or you do it yourself with unairus  last grasp waybound) this whole "risk of dying" argument just doesnt make sense, maybe if revies still costed plat.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

with its rotten modifier foundations ill-suited for use as a measuring stick for what’s balanced, which makes it doubly weird that you seem to think shieldgating in general was introduced for the sake of players in SP

This line Im most confused about as 1st off shield gating was not introduced because of sp, it was introduced because of people who do lvl cap which is a huge difference. You can health tank just fine up to an hour hell maybe even 2 just fine in sp in fact is way easier than shield gating so dont get where youre getting that idea from.

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

and started utilising shieldgate abuse as a means to survive because by that point you were convinced that the risk of death is never really a concern in the first place and being invincible, even if it requires a more active playstyle, was par for the course

And then theres this nonsense, in all relevant content shield gating is actually one of the more if not the most risky means of survival there is. If people really wanted there to be zero risk of dying they would play invisibility frames or inaros/revenant.

Nobody is solely relying on raw shield gating alone, in fact you can look through some shield gate guides and a very common thing you will see recommended to use is rolling guard and in some you will see cc be recommended because in reality 1.3 seconds is just not enough time to really anything at all especially considering that most abilities in this game have an animation time that eats into the gate window. Id actually recommend you watch the video silligoose linked all the way through and maybe you start to understand the "player type 3 mentality" I keep referring to where people keep ignoring all that goes into what makes shield gating work and only focus on invulnerability widow and overvalue and exaggerate the heck out of it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Honestly have no clue what youre talking about bud. Base star chart is a joke, the most minimal of builds are enough to clear them with ease and the enemies just tickle you for the most and even if you do somehow die you have 5 (7 with arcanes) whole free revives if your teammates dont manage to pick you up so(or you do it yourself with unairus  last grasp waybound) this whole "risk of dying" argument just doesnt make sense, maybe if revies still costed plat.

I know you have no idea what I'm talking about. You also seem to have this weird idea that the game is not only trying to kill you, but that the devs should be designing to ensure frequent mission failures and loss of RNG-based rewards. Risk of death is a thing and active gameplay can avoid it, and if you die enough you risk mission failure; risk of mission failure much less-so though sometimes there's objective failure to consider as well as player death, particularly the more we play and unlock things like heavy weapons and Necramechs and what you've already pointed out, and that's a good thing

At its core, Warframe is a buildcrafting game full of ways to build and play and ways to approach a mission. It gives us gear, mods, schools, gearwheel items, etc, and a bunch of missions with various rewards that further our options to combine however we want.

When you did something like get a new weapon, did you do things like load it up on damage mods first and foremost and then think it odd that the game was allegedly asking that you burn nearly all your available modslots and whatever build variety you could have, ask for tons of Forma investment, was apparently designed solely around grinding as fast as possible with practically zero gameplay involved, and kept asking you to do different missions that facilitate alternative ways to build and play when you really quickly had the means to trounce said missions and earn tons of things (whether it's been recently introduced or around for a while) you never used because you already had the one way to build and play; massive overkill in both survival and damage which eventually gets stale and could be relegated to a loadout slot if it doesn’t find its place elsewhere in the game when that happens?

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

This line Im most confused about as 1st off shield gating was not introduced because of sp, it was introduced because of people who do lvl cap which is a huge difference. You can health tank just fine up to an hour hell maybe even 2 just fine in sp in fact is way easier than shield gating so dont get where youre getting that idea from.

...What. That makes even less sense. The fundamental mechanic of Shieldgating, the thing what prevents one-shots outside of toxin damage (which is designed to bypass shields and thank god for it), affects everyone using every build/loadout in every mission, not just some players looking for validation from the game because they want something designed around their most powerful cheesiest builds/loadouts. Why would it be introduced for level cap when you yourself said that DE aren't designing around it?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

10 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You also seem to have this weird idea that the game is not only trying to kill you, but that the devs should be designing to ensure frequent mission failures.

This makes zero sense, please elaborate.

 

10 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Risk of death is a thing and active gameplay can avoid it, and if you die enough you risk mission failure; risk of mission failure much less-so, particularly the more we play and unlock things like heavy weapons and Necramechs and what you've already pointed out, and that's a good thing

By using shield gating over health tanking in normal relevant content (lvl 40-50 to 100-200) youre increasing the risk youre taking because youre giving up your comfy dr and larger health pool for a build that requires a much more active playstyle in order to stay alive. So by that logic shield gating is a good thing thats completely optional btw.

 

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

When you did something like get a new weapon, did you do things like load it up on damage mods first and foremost and then think it odd that the game was allegedly asking that you burn nearly all your available modslots and whatever build variety you could have, was apparently designed solely around grinding as fast as possible with practically zero gameplay involved, and kept asking you to do different missions that facilitate alternative ways to build and play when you really quickly had the means to trounce said missions and earn tons of things (whether it's been recently introduced or around for a while) you never used because you already had the one way to build and play; massive overkill in both survival and damage which eventually gets stale and could be relegated to a loadout slot when that happens?

Ah, so you must be one of those anti meta players that cant stand being told what is the most optimal way to build something and why you should use it right? Good thing about warframe is that if you dont plan on doing lvl 1k+ content you can completely ignore that and use whatever you wanna use instead albeit maybe a little less efficient. That said warframe is a very grindy game and thats why so many people optimize their builds, you grind one thing so you can then grind another in a more efficient manor than repeat over and over.

31 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

At its core, Warframe is a buildcrafting game full of ways to build and play and ways to approach a mission. It gives us gear, mods, schools, gearwheel items, etc, and a bunch of missions with various rewards that further our options to combine however we want.

And thats why the introduction of shield gating was so good for the game, it has allowed more diverse build options that where otherwise where unviable do to how much work was needed to get them survive. If shield gating didnt exist you would see far less squishy frames being used.

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

...What. That makes even less sense. The fundamental mechanic of Shieldgating, the thing what prevents one-shots outside of toxin damage (which is designed to bypass shields and thank god for it), affects everyone using every build/loadout in every mission, not just some players looking for validation from the game because they want something designed around their most powerful cheesiest builds/loadouts. Why would it be introduced for level cap when you yourself said that DE aren't designing around it?

Dont believe me, sp was released after shield gating was added. Sp was added in update 28.1 while shield gating was added in update 27.2. As for why it was added despite DE not balancing lvl cap people still played to it anyway (probably due to the lack of a proper endgame). You needed very specific loadouts to make it to lvl cap and the list of viable frames was very small, so players asked for a way to be able to use these unviable frames in that lvl cap content. So rather than redesigning/rebalancing a part of the game that only a very tiny portion of the playerbase actually plays (and on top of that the ones that do can already succeed in) we were given shield gating to expand the list of viable frames.

 

 

[nslay]

30 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

At its core, Warframe is a buildcrafting game full of ways to build and play and ways to approach a mission. It gives us gear, mods, schools, gearwheel items, etc, and a bunch of missions with various rewards that further our options to combine however we want.

Just wanted to highlight this. It's absolutely right!

Wouldn't you say shield gating is yet another survival strategy? It's definitely not the only way to survive and I don't see how it overshadows other options for typical game play. I'm definitely baffled by posters thinking it's somehow bad for the game. I say this as someone who plays a mixture of survival strategies including shield gating, bruteforce health/armor/healing/Adaptation/Rolling Guard/Quick Thinking, invisibility, crowd control, and damage mitigation abilities... even so far as Steel Path content including several consecutive tiers of SP Circuit (where you can't even effectively use shield gating anyway).

Sure, some of these build styles scale better for endurance. Dare I say, nobody cares about niche ultra long/level cap endurance runners using infinitely scaling strategies to survive. It's neat to hear about, but I'm sure as heck not going to play that long! I don't think DE cares about these players either! Likewise, I fail to see any relevance about being overbuilt. These days, Warframe is all about the overkill and everyone loves to overbuild their frames and weapons.

Now, while I only use shield gating on 2 frames (with the Dragon Key and Brief Respite), I mod for it on all companions as it greatly enhances their survivability... even sentinels can survive an hour of SP sometimes without using a single Primed Regen stack if you're paying attention to their shields.

What I never liked about the introduction of shield gating was that it never really fixed shields.  And now having less shields is counterintuitively better because it regenerates to full faster (whether you use abilities/Brief Respite or not).

[Traumtulpe]

On 2023-07-31 at 9:41 AM, Silligoose said:

1.3 seconds is about 5x longer than the average human's reaction time. From what I see, different sources appear to claim the average reaction time to be anything from 0.2s - 0.3s, so no, 1.3 seconds isn't that short within the context. Of course, we do have to account for ping, input lag etc, but even then, even when also considering someone with slower than average reaction times, 1.3 second is quite generous a window.

I see 1.3 seconds quoted over and over, and it says 1.3 on the wiki too, but the one time I've actually recorded shield gating because I wanted to report a bug with it, a full gate lasted for exactly one second. I looked at it frame by frame.

Am I somehow mistaken, or do people just mistakenly add the partial shield gate (0.3 seconds) and the full one (1 sec) together? They do not actually add, they overwrite each other. Yes, you can overwrite your full shield gate with a 0.3 second partial one in certain situations, and thus die from full shields in about 0.3 seconds.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

This makes zero sense, please elaborate.

I think I’m the one who needs elaboration now. You mentioned risk of death and something about revives costing plat, and I’m sitting here thinking “Is… there something beyond risk of death as a part of what a fight looks like that you’re referring to”

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

By using shield gating over health tanking in normal relevant content (lvl 40-50 to 100-200) youre increasing the risk youre taking because youre giving up your comfy dr and larger health pool for a build that requires a much more active playstyle in order to stay alive. So by that logic shield gating is a good thing thats completely optional btw.

You don’t need a Shieldgate abuse build or massive amounts of redundant survival for an active playstyle. Shieldgating itself is fine, if a little long. I’m not talking to you more than I have to though about shieldgate abuse because you’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t care what it does so long as it does what you want it to do and you’ll take your defense of it to your grave, and is why I didn’t make a big deal of it in the first post of this new conversation (despite the conversation linking to shieldgate abuse and your warped perception of what’s a too-powerful synergy)

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Ah, so you must be one of those anti meta players that cant stand being told what is the most optimal way to build something and why you should use it right? Good thing about warframe is that if you dont plan on doing lvl 1k+ content you can completely ignore that and use whatever you wanna use instead albeit maybe a little less efficient. That said warframe is a very grindy game and thats why so many people optimize their builds, you grind one thing so you can then grind another in a more efficient manor than repeat over and over.

It gets a little tiring hearing the community bang on about “optimal” and “Meta” and trying to get the game balanced around a handful of builds that sit at the top like it’s a good idea if even possible, but I’m not against the Meta, just sick of how a bunch of grind-addicted powerjunkies asking for one thing but clearly obsessing over the opposite don’t shut up about it and how badly it warps perception of how the game can work.

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And thats why the introduction of shield gating was so good for the game, it has allowed more diverse build options that where otherwise where unviable do to how much work was needed to get them survive. If shield gating didnt exist you would see far less squishy frames being used.

I don’t think you understand what SP is for. It ain’t build diversity; the rest of the game has that. And the main reason we saw far less squishy frames in general is because people have been rotted trying to make low-effort mission success a norm and then being unpleasantly surprised when it turns out that sometimes, death is just around the corner. You can’t have players chasing cheese also be any good at relying on something other than their cheese, which sat wrong with plenty of players and turned them off any sort of risk (like squishy frames). Shieldgating’s introduction may have helped make it easier for your standard player to get into SP, but SP isn’t where you go for diversity; even Archon Hunts don’t have SP’s modifiers, for good reason.

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Dont believe me, sp was released after shield gating was added. Sp was added in update 28.1 while shield gating was added in update 27.2. As for why it was added despite DE not balancing lvl cap people still played to it anyway (probably due to the lack of a proper endgame). You needed very specific loadouts to make it to lvl cap and the list of viable frames was very small, so players asked for a way to be able to use these unviable frames in that lvl cap content. So rather than redesigning/rebalancing a part of the game that only a very tiny portion of the playerbase actually plays (and on top of that the ones that do can already succeed in) we were given shield gating to expand the list of viable frames.

Wait. So not only is level cap something that DE aren’t designing around, shieldgating wasn’t even introduced for the sake of Steel Path. That means it was introduced into the standard game which facilitates most of the build variety possible, which SP isn’t, for non level-cap content, which most of the game to this day still is.

Also can you like, be more concise?The more you break up my posts the longer I have to spend faffing around with the mobile interface trying to address what’s said, the higher a chance I’m just going to not respond to something despite having something to say

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

Wouldn't you say shield gating is yet another survival strategy?

I would say that about shieldgate abuse. I don’t mind that it’s around, I’m not forced to use it, DE don’t seem bothered, but shieldgate abuse is a strange and overtly powerfully interaction (in a game where powerful interactions are 20 levels down from what we’re built for) that would raise a red flag for any game designer trying to make a game based on gradients of damage and a recharging shield system, it should not be considered balanced or expected to be balanced around or used as the baseline for balance or considered a balancing mechanic or treated like something not at risk of being chopped or sold to players as representative of good gameplay, and to do so is to invite a warped sense of what balance even looks like and fundamentally rots the base of any balance discussions.

Shieldgate abuse is a gimmick that’s been left in at the designer’s discretion

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I would say that about shieldgate abuse. I don’t mind that it’s around, I’m not forced to use it, DE don’t seem bothered, but shieldgate abuse is a strange and overtly powerfully interaction (in a game where powerful interactions are 20 levels down from what we’re built for) that would raise a red flag for any game designer trying to make a game based on gradients of damage and a recharging shield system, it should not be considered balanced or expected to be balanced around or used as the baseline for balance or considered a balancing mechanic or treated like something not at risk of being chopped or sold to players as representative of good gameplay, and to do so is to invite a warped sense of what balance even looks like and fundamentally rots the base of any balance discussions.

Shieldgate abuse is a gimmick that’s been left in at the designer’s discretion

Yeah, I don't know if I would call it abuse. Hildryn/Mag/Harrow aside, you've always had all these shield mods (like Brief Respite) and Arcanes as build options. Now they're more valuable for more frames because of the shield gating mechanic. Though, as far as I can remember (I started in 2018), shield capacity mods were almost never used on any frame anyway.

The odd ball is the Decaying Dragon Key which was really meant to make the game harder. You're not supposed to benefit from this! I imagine this was not on DE's radar... Dragon Keys were niche things for Veiled Rivens and Orokin Vaults. Nobody would ever use these for other things, right!?

I just wish DE would fix shields. You should want to mod for more shields... not less! At face value, that makes no sense to me!

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

16 minutes ago, nslay said:

The odd ball is the Decaying Dragon Key which was really meant to make the game harder. You're not supposed to benefit from this! I imagine this was not on DE's radar... Dragon Keys were niche things for Veiled Rivens and Orokin Vaults. Nobody would ever use these for other things, right!?

I just wish DE would fix shields. You should want to mod for more shields... not less! At face value, that makes no sense to me!

I sometimes use Decaying alongside other dragon keys to either inject a little bit of spice that I can’t otherwise get into level 20-30ish content or shift my build lower if I don’t particularly feel like changing anything about my build but want to go somewhere else, but I’m not about to say it’s what the game designers had in mind.

Shields are fine for the rest of the balanced game (which SP is not), but to get the most use out of them requires doing things like moving lots and good positioning and sometimes straight up just ducking out of a fight (which can be difficult for missions like Mobile Defense) to make use of their greatest strength, their recharging nature to protect non-recharging health (and recharge mods can make a huge difference when played to the strengths of shields). A player doing things like sitting there eating damage in the middle of the room trying to melee enemies while getting shot from every direction with little concern for what they’re even fighting or where they’re standing isn’t recommended for shields. Which far as I know is a popular tactic, nevermind identifying enemy hotspots and where a fight takes place and how to work within a fight

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I sometimes use Decaying alongside other dragon keys to either inject a little bit of spice that I can’t otherwise get into level 20-30ish content or shift my build lower if I don’t particularly feel like changing anything about my build but want to go somewhere else, but I’m not about to say it’s what the game designers had in mind.

Shields are fine for the rest of the balanced game (which SP is not), but to get the most use out of them requires doing things like moving lots and good positioning and sometimes straight up just ducking out of a fight (which can be difficult for missions like Mobile Defense) to make use of their greatest strength, their recharging nature to protect non-recharging health (and recharge mods can make a huge difference when played to the strengths of shields). A player doing things like sitting there eating damage in the middle of the room trying to melee enemies while getting shot from every direction with little concern for what they’re even fighting or where they’re standing isn’t recommended for shields. Which far as I know is a popular tactic, nevermind identifying enemy hotspots and where a fight takes place and how to work within a fight

The regenerative nature doesn't make up for their innate lack of damage reduction. Something like Adaptation can make shields more effective, but you'll probably generally get way more EHP by pairing that Adaptation with Armor/Health... and not more shields. I think this is why shield capacity mods were never really popular. And the relatively new shield gating mechanic makes having less shields more useful... which boggles the mind! I really think they need to rethink shields... or maybe that's what Overguard is, shields 2.0 WIP or something.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think I’m the one who needs elaboration now. You mentioned risk of death and something about revives costing plat, and I’m sitting here thinking “Is… there something beyond risk of death as a part of what a fight looks like that you’re referring to”

All I said was that there is really no risk of death in warframe as theres no real penalty for dying cuz you can get picked up by your teammates/last grasp or use one of the 5/7 self revives, only real downside a loss of some bonus affinity and a slight inconvince. And the reason I said what I said was that is a common argument is that shield gating eliminates the risk of dying and I guess I assumed thats what you were referring to as well but I guess that was wrong. So as for this "way a fight is meant to look like" or whatever it is you mean I really dont get what else you mean than. If you are referring to your own playstyle being the best way to play then how is that any different than the meta slaves claiming their way is the best? And if you ask what a fight is supposed to look l would actually say the overbuilt builds you think is bad is pretty accurate to power fantasy this game is and the lore of what warframes are.

Oh and btw the reason I brought up revives costing plat was because way back when this was actually the case, its mainly and irrelevant point tho.

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It gets a little tiring hearing the community bang on about “optimal” and “Meta” and trying to get the game balanced around a handful of builds that sit at the top like it’s a good idea if even possible, but I’m not against the Meta, just sick of how a bunch of grind-addicted powerjunkies asking for one thing but clearly obsessing over the opposite don’t shut up about it and how badly it warps perception of how the game can work.

I don’t think you understand what SP is for. It ain’t build diversity; the rest of the game has that. And the main reason we saw far less squishy frames in general is because people have been rotted trying to make low-effort mission success a norm and then being unpleasantly surprised when it turns out that sometimes, death is just around the corner. You can’t have players chasing cheese also be any good at relying on something other than their cheese, which sat wrong with plenty of players and turned them off any sort of risk (like squishy frames). Shieldgating’s introduction may have helped make it easier for your standard player to get into SP, but SP isn’t where you go for diversity; even Archon Hunts don’t have SP’s modifiers, for good reason.

No offense but this is starting to sound more like a you problem. Youre stating to sound like you have this irrational hatred towards people who use the meta and since shield gating has become quite popular that hatred spread to it as well hence the whole emphasis on "shield gate abuse" and "having to relay on it" and from the sounds of this recent post you view those players as lesser to you which is a little hypocritical. If you dont like the meta that much just dont use it, no need to hate on the people that do. Again I mean no offense but this is just what Im getting out of you based on your choice of words.

 

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Shields are fine for the rest of the balanced game (which SP is not), but to get the most use out of them requires doing things like moving lots and good positioning and sometimes straight up just ducking out of a fight (which can be difficult for missions like Mobile Defense) to make use of their greatest strength, their recharging nature to protect non-recharging health (and recharge mods can make a huge difference when played to the strengths of shields). A player doing things like sitting there eating damage in the middle of the room trying to melee enemies while getting shot from every direction with little concern for what they’re even fighting or where they’re standing isn’t recommended for shields. Which far as I know is a popular tactic, nevermind identifying enemy hotspots and where a fight takes place and how to work within a fight

See the thing I dont think you realize is that if your just standing there face tanking with shield gating just spamming an ability over and over thats taking a lot of time away from doing other more meaningful things especially if that ability has an animation which most do, ideally you shield gate as little as possible. Shields are way to frail to relay on past base star chart thats why people dont bother playing this way and people just heal their health instead of waiting for their shield to regenerate. Warframe is also a very fast paced game, hiding behind cover is too slow thats why people dont bother, its also why the very reactive shield gate mechanic has risen in popularity so much.

 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

The regenerative nature doesn't make up for their innate lack of damage reduction. Something like Adaptation can make shields more effective, but you'll probably generally get way more EHP by pairing that Adaptation with Armor/Health... and not more shields. I think this is why shield capacity mods were never really popular. And the relatively new shield gating mechanic makes having less shields more useful... which boggles the mind! I really think they need to rethink shields... or maybe that's what Overguard is, shields 2.0 WIP or something.

Pretty sure shield capacity mods weren’t popular because players wanted to shieldtank and found out that it doesn’t work that well for a bunch of space ninjas who’s whole thing is movement and avoiding getting hit, so they did things like slap on some health regen and armour and just kept eating tons of damage, but at a reduced rate rechargeable rate that had to be built for once the bothersome shields that didn’t lend themselves to the tactic were stripped away.

Plus it’s just harder to share a build that has variable success rates due to its reliance on how someone plays instead of an understandable “If you stand around you can survive X amount of time before you die”. If DE did something to shields I’d be curious to see how it shakes out

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

All I said was that there is really no risk of death in warframe as theres no real penalty for dying cuz you can get picked up by your teammates/last grasp or use one of the 5/7 self revives, only real downside a loss of some bonus affinity and a slight inconvince. And the reason I said what I said was that is a common argument is that shield gating eliminates the risk of dying and I guess I assumed thats what you were referring to as well but I guess that was wrong. So as for this "way a fight is meant to look like" or whatever it is you mean I really dont get what else you mean than. If you are referring to your own playstyle being the best way to play then how is that any different than the meta slaves claiming their way is the best? And if you ask what a fight is supposed to look l would actually say the overbuilt builds you think is bad is pretty accurate to power fantasy this game is and the lore of what warframes are.

Oh and btw the reason I brought up revives costing plat was because way back when this was actually the case, its mainly and irrelevant point tho.

 

No offense but this is starting to sound more like a you problem. Youre stating to sound like you have this irrational hatred towards people who use the meta and since shield gating has become quite popular that hatred spread to it as well hence the whole emphasis on "shield gate abuse" and "having to relay on it" and from the sounds of this recent post you view those players as lesser to you which is a little hypocritical. If you dont like the meta that much just dont use it, no need to hate on the people that do. Again I mean no offense but this is just what Im getting out of you based on your choice of words.

 

See the thing I dont think you realize is that if your just standing there face tanking with shield gating just spamming an ability over and over thats taking a lot of time away from doing other more meaningful things especially if that ability has an animation which most do, ideally you shield gate as little as possible. Shields are way to frail to relay on past base star chart thats why people dont bother playing this way and people just heal their health instead of waiting for their shield to regenerate. Warframe is also a very fast paced game, hiding behind cover is too slow thats why people dont bother, its also why the very reactive shield gate mechanic has risen in popularity so much.

 

 

The part where gameplay is involved is what I’m referring to, not the part that most players avoid. If you’re going to talk about balancing and how something works and whether it’s too powerful, know what you’re talking about in the first place. The game is a sandbox of ways to build and play, one way isn’t strictly better than the other, but if your perspective is one way to play which is only massive overkill in both survival and damage, and there’s a whole other side to this coin that isn’t that and is where the fight sits, what are you doing talking about that side of the coin like you know what you’re talking about?

And right now you sound like you want to be attacked, like you want me to knock down meta play. I got little to no respect for players who can’t fight talking like they can and acting like they know what’s best for the game when they barely play either the buildcrafting or gameplay portion of it, I’ll say that much, but I also don’t care if they can’t fight or how they play until they start talking like they can and start acting like the things they say make sense. Maybe there’s some semblance of gameplay balance in what they say, but for the most part they’re so offset from the reality by choice that I’m wondering where their even getting their ideas of what’s balanced and what’s not from, because players sure don’t try to find it as they reach for that concept of game-breaking power fantasy

[nslay]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Pretty sure shield capacity mods weren’t popular because players wanted to shieldtank and found out that it doesn’t work that well for a bunch of space ninjas who’s whole thing is movement and avoiding getting hit, so they did things like slap on some health regen and armour and just kept eating tons of damage, but at a reduced rate rechargeable rate that had to be built for once the bothersome shields that didn’t lend themselves to the tactic were stripped away.

Plus it’s just harder to share a build that has variable success rates due to its reliance on how someone plays instead of an understandable “If you stand around you can survive X amount of time before you die”. If DE did something to shields I’d be curious to see how it shakes out

It's because armor and something like Adaptation multiply giving vastly more EHP than just Adaptation with more shields. The problem is health is more valuable because it is complemented by armor which combines with all other damage mitigation. It's one extra damage mitigation layer missing in shields... and no, fast regeneration of shields is not a substitute for the effect armor has on health.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

16 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

And right now you sound like you want to be attacked, like you want me to knock down meta play. I got little to no respect for players who can’t fight talking like they can and acting like they know what’s best for the game when they barely play either the buildcrafting or gameplay portion of it, I’ll say that much, but I also don’t care if they can’t fight or how they play until they start talking like they can and start acting like the things they say make sense

Yea like what youre doing right now yourself. No offense but thats pretty hypocritical. 

17 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

what are you doing talking about that side of the coin like you know what you’re talking about?

 

Good question why are you?

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

8 minutes ago, nslay said:

It's because armor and something like Adaptation multiply giving vastly more EHP than just Adaptation with more shields. The problem is health is more valuable because it is complemented by armor which combines with all other damage mitigation. It's one extra damage mitigation layer missing in shields... and no, fast regeneration of shields is not a substitute for the effect armor has on health.

Health is also the thing that if we run out of it we’re dead, unlike shields. It’s a last resort resource for the most part and we’re going to want some ways to keep it around. If the value of protecting health is so high that it’s negatively influencing the choice between health and shields, I wouldn’t mind seeing the effects of mods and systems that provide that protection diminished, because shields are already performing their role in the balanced part of the game.

That said, recharging shields in general do not go with typical playstyles because they need that chance to recharge and they aren’t given it, so fundamentally the playstyle of many players is at odds with the design of shields

[(NSW)Greybones]

19 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Good question why are you?

What?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What?

Well, you seem to think you know so much of how the game is meant to be played and "what a fight is supposed to look like" than anyone else then you make the assumption that I am one the players that "only plays one way which is only massive overkill in both survival and damage" and that I know nothing, which btw is a pretty bold assumption.

[(NSW)Greybones]

28 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Well, you seem to think you know so much of how the game is meant to be played and "what a fight is supposed to look like" than anyone else then you make the assumption that I am one the players that "only plays one way which is only massive overkill in both survival and damage" and that I know nothing, which btw is a pretty bold assumption.

You couldn’t give me an example of gameplay that players typically avoid, instead trying to spin it somehow. Plus you think gameplay where you’re either alive or dead with no transition between, gameplay provided by high-level content combined with your build style (avoiding the A-word) is not game design that typically runs counter to the kind of game that DE would design?

And there’s no bold assumption; game-breaking ways of play are the default. It’s a thing players pride themselves on, it’s what’s sold to new players as the best way to play, it’s the half of the coin that most of the community know very well, even if it’s something as simple as taking a higher-level build lower for the sake of easier grind, and it’s why it’s so bizarre when players start talking about balance because I’ve no idea what they’re drawing from as a baseline. You haven’t been saying much that runs counter to commonly-held ideas outside of being a little more active with a particular high-level playstyle in a specific part of the game

[(NSW)warfare3376]

32 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You couldn’t give me an example of gameplay that players typically avoid, instead trying to spin it somehow.

 

Oh boy this nonsense again. What are some examples of things players do to avoid shield gating? That is literally the same exact question, what are things players to avoid my playstyle, that is what you literally asked and thats exactly why I didnt answer it because there literally was no actual answer. You think your playstyle is the one everyone is supposed to playing and anyone whos not doesnt know what theyre doing which its so unbelievably hypocritical when you then say garbage like this "I got little to no respect for players who can’t fight talking like they can and acting like they know what’s best for the game when they barely play either the buildcrafting or gameplay portion of it" thats actually ridiculous.