Warframe 1999 - Add-on content is nice, but I'd have preferred core Warframe to be the main focus

[Corvid]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

The core gameplay is still the same.

No, it really wasn't. Take it from someone who was there.

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

33 minutes ago, Corvid said:

No, it really wasn't. Take it from someone who was there.

You're not the first human, mate. A lot of people, including me was there.

 

You allude to warframe losing its identity, which is false.

And if it were true, what 'changed' its core identity? It's STILL a looter-shooter. It's STILL a farming sim. It's STILL a game about metal armor people bringing the hurt to things. So? What changed? 

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

So? What changed? 

Stamina Bar.

:p

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

You're not the first human, mate. A lot of people, including me was there.

 

You allude to warframe losing its identity, which is false.

And if it were true, what 'changed' its core identity? It's STILL a looter-shooter. It's STILL a farming sim. It's STILL a game about metal armor people bringing the hurt to things. So? What changed? 

They gave us too much power and a choice between wielding it for mandatory efficiency and wielding it for optional fun. The core gameplay has remained about the same for years, the main difference is that we got more(?) ways to break it and must abandon the options that were merely sufficient and engaged with said gameplay

edit: 🤔 Wait, that’s been the case for years and years; SP didn’t spring up out of nowhere for no reason and give us a place where we’re supposed to wreck everything

Edited September 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

They gave us too much power and a choice between wielding it for mandatory efficiency and wielding it for optional fun. The core gameplay has remained about the same for years, the main difference is that we got more(?) ways to break it and must abandon the options that were merely sufficient and engaged with said gameplay

edit: 🤔 Wait, that’s been the case for years and years; SP didn’t spring up out of nowhere for no reason and give us a place where we’re supposed to wreck everything

Steel Path is the only real place where you're expected to be more than just casual, otherwise, for every year that passes, a new mechanic doesn't offer enough to outright replace what came before it, and what came before it is not necessarily removed. We don't have Dauntless' gliders, or Phantasy Star Online II's multiple movement options, all things necessarily different or even original from the classic movement of "Just run. Just jump. Just get around. Just do it."

Some things may be optional, but most of the time, you're not forced to touch everything that exists, which is why, at least for the last six years, I've ridiculed meta builds and generally had zero, or even less than zero, reasons to touch, let alone participate, in any higher meta. I liked having what I had, I enjoyed using what I used, I enjoyed playing who I play. I still primarily confide in Zephyr and if anybody had to tell me that there were a number of better warframes, tailored for situations that Zephyr cannot compete at the same level in, those arguments are exactly why I prefer Zephyr. I play Zephyr because they're not a meta I dislike, a playstyle that contradicts my comfort, or a style designed to be any of those other things.

Plus, without question, while I moved on to Wisp Prime, the reasons remain. I enjoyed Zephyr for aerial movement. Wisp may be slower, but Wisp is a witch and her weapon's called "Thunder" and functions like a magic gun. The only time there's a conflict with my interests are when things like New War happens, taking such agencies and incentives away to tell a story about 20% of the gameplay, for 90% of a quest, with 0% consideration for what I play, how long it took to be able to play it, and how much work went into making it enjoyable to play. I don't like that, even after being forced to use a bow-drifter, even if I wanted to, even that agency is not even a consideration and you'll never be able to use a bow-drifter ever again.

[(NSW)Greybones]

34 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

Steel Path is the only real place where you're expected to be more than just casual, otherwise, for every year that passes, a new mechanic doesn't offer enough to outright replace what came before it, and what came before it is not necessarily removed. We don't have Dauntless' gliders, or Phantasy Star Online II's multiple movement options, all things necessarily different or even original from the classic movement of "Just run. Just jump. Just get around. Just do it."

Some things may be optional, but most of the time, you're not forced to touch everything that exists, which is why, at least for the last six years, I've ridiculed meta builds and generally had zero, or even less than zero, reasons to touch, let alone participate, in any higher meta. I liked having what I had, I enjoyed using what I used, I enjoyed playing who I play. I still primarily confide in Zephyr and if anybody had to tell me that there were a number of better warframes, tailored for situations that Zephyr cannot compete at the same level in, those arguments are exactly why I prefer Zephyr. I play Zephyr because they're not a meta I dislike, a playstyle that contradicts my comfort, or a style designed to be any of those other things.

Plus, without question, while I moved on to Wisp Prime, the reasons remain. I enjoyed Zephyr for aerial movement. Wisp may be slower, but Wisp is a witch and her weapon's called "Thunder" and functions like a magic gun. The only time there's a conflict with my interests are when things like New War happens, taking such agencies and incentives away to tell a story about 20% of the gameplay, for 90% of a quest, with 0% consideration for what I play, how long it took to be able to play it, and how much work went into making it enjoyable to play. I don't like that, even after being forced to use a bow-drifter, even if I wanted to, even that agency is not even a consideration and you'll never be able to use a bow-drifter ever again.

Bah. Too much effort to define my playstyle. Let the builds and the game do it for me, I’ll just do the grinding for the pieces.

Uh oh. The builds and game and community are telling me I’m playing a cookie clicker. Either it needs to take away the builds and loadouts I’m using (which incidentally are the same builds/loadouts that others are using in the content they’re using them in because they want a cookie clicker) or rise to the challenge of dealing with my infinite energy and one-shot weapons and invincible Warframe. Without taking away my infinite energy, one-shot weapons, or invincible Warframe. Because I worked hard grinding those pieces to get to this point, dammit

Edited September 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones
ugh, hard to talk about nuanced concept like its so simple

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

20 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Bah. Too much effort to define my playstyle. Let the builds and the game do it for me, I’ll just do the grinding for the pieces.

Uh oh. The builds and game and community are telling me I’m playing a cookie clicker. Either it needs to take away the builds and loadouts I’m using (which incidentally are the same builds/loadouts that others are using because they want a cookie clicker) or rise to the challenge of dealing with my infinite energy and one-shot weapons and invincible Warframe. Without taking away my infinite energy, one-shot weapons, or invincible Warframe. Because I worked hard grinding those pieces to get to this point, dammit

But where's Cookie 2 electric cookie monster boogaloo? With extra void cascades?

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

But where's Cookie 2 electric cookie monster boogaloo? With extra void cascades?

Man that was hard to come up with without edits to qualify concepts that seem apparent but kind of aren’t, which ultimately I failed not editing anyways.

Anyways. The game gives us all these optimal options and then expects us to set them aside when they’ve served their purpose or aren’t necessary? Hah! I even take SP level 200 builds to level 60 content because it’s more optimal than trying to make a custom build that sits in that range of content and has a chance at slower mission completion because I’m too busy fighting; I’m not made of time, I got grinding to do for things what make me grind faster

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m not made of time, I got grinding to do for things what make me grind faster

You might not want to ask much of exactly that phrase to a DE dev. She'd'a ship you to the salt mines to get them more regal aya to sell to consumers for extortionate pricing.

Aside from that, it's exactly all of that stuff which makes the main story seem ultimately short-sighted.

People play stories, even side-stories, even character stories, even Bioware stories, even Square Enix stories, for a fair reason.

If the story is hard, you can obviously make it easier as an option, or the opposite and refuse to use, or carry a certain weapon because it's too easy.

The characters are enjoyable.

Miranda dragon boss fights and knights committing treason. Also Miranda
That goes for Final Fantasy and a need to make characters enjoyable, such as Gilgamesh. More than just a goon-- You can legit kill him, and FFV gives you the OPTION of letting him live and it's such a beautiful thing. You can even grind so hard, make the game so easy, that it's possible to SAVE Gilgamesh when it he goes on some monologue about friendship and how he dun goofed.

Spoiler

Spoiler

There's also the part where FFV is arguably not an easy game, yet it's possible to cheese the hardest fights in the game and it's very much optional. Create cho own fun.

 

Welp, to the salt mines I go. No fun allowed.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

You might not want to ask much of exactly that phrase to a DE dev. She'd'a ship you to the salt mines to get them more regal aya to sell to consumers for extortionate pricing.

Aside from that, it's exactly all of that stuff which makes the main story seem ultimately short-sighted.

People play stories, even side-stories, even character stories, even Bioware stories, even Square Enix stories, for a fair reason.

If the story is hard, you can obviously make it easier as an option, or the opposite and refuse to use, or carry a certain weapon because it's too easy.

The characters are enjoyable.

Miranda dragon boss fights and knights committing treason. Also Miranda
That goes for Final Fantasy and a need to make characters enjoyable, such as Gilgamesh. More than just a goon-- You can legit kill him, and FFV gives you the OPTION of letting him live and it's such a beautiful thing. You can even grind so hard, make the game so easy, that it's possible to SAVE Gilgamesh when it he goes on some monologue about friendship and how he dun goofed.

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

There's also the part where FFV is arguably not an easy game, yet it's possible to cheese the hardest fights in the game and it's very much optional. Create cho own fun.

 

Welp, to the salt mines I go. No fun allowed.

It’s not even the weapons necessarily, it’s the builds that will often have the greatest impact. I can’t think of a single weapon or Warframe or combination I wouldn’t use even if I’m looking for a fight to keep the grind interesting; the builds on the other hand will have to be considered depending on whether I’m looking for one or not and how I want that to play out.

I do sort of get what DE were trying to do with the story stuff; everyone on the sameish level, experiences things the sameish way, the game gets a chance to breath in the first place. Sometimes even something as simple as a difficulty selector can change how something is perceived.

That said, even though I’m pretty cool with being forced outside my comfort zone or working with limited options, I do prefer the options that we have outside of the game telling us what to do. I’d be pretty annoyed if the game did something like autoscaled itself every time I jumped into a mission because I’m literally building to either make the mission easier or harder, and keeping the experience consistent so that I can actually test accordingly and find that baseline is important to defining my approach because I need to know whether I’m overbuilt or underbuilt in the first place instead of it shifting around all the time. I wouldn’t mind at all if the stuff like Damage Attenuation just went bye-bye because I can trust myself to find that sweet spot of difficulty instead of the game trying to do it for me.

 🤔 But I guess ultimately, with stuff like Warframe 1999, we’ll just have to wait and see whether DE want to force players to fight or whether it’s an optional thing. I get that it can be annoying for many, but personally I’m fine either way

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s not even the weapons necessarily, it’s the builds that will often have the greatest impact. I can’t think of a single weapon or Warframe or combination I wouldn’t use even if I’m looking for a fight to keep the grind interesting; the builds on the other hand will have to be considered depending on whether I’m looking for one or not and how I want that to play out.

I do sort of get what DE were trying to do with the story stuff; everyone on the sameish level, experiences things the sameish way, the game gets a chance to breath in the first place. Sometimes even something as simple as a difficulty selector can change how something is perceived.

That said, even though I’m pretty cool with being forced outside my comfort zone or working with limited options, I do prefer the options that we have outside of the game telling us what to do. I’d be pretty annoyed if the game did something like autoscaled itself every time I jumped into a mission because I’m literally building to either make the mission easier or harder, and keeping the experience consistent so that I can actually test accordingly and find that baseline is important to defining my approach because I need to know whether I’m overbuilt or underbuilt in the first place instead of it shifting around all the time. I wouldn’t mind at all if the stuff like Damage Attenuation just went bye-bye because I can trust myself to find that sweet spot of difficulty instead of the game trying to do it for me.

 🤔 But I guess ultimately, with stuff like Warframe 1999, we’ll just have to wait and see whether DE want to force players to fight or whether it’s an optional thing. I get that it can be annoying for many, but personally I’m fine either way

Trust is a comfortable answer to every problem. Trust the players to know how to play.

1999, if it HAS to be another new war, should strike the balance between "Everything is homogenized to play exactly the same." and "Everything is as easy you you make it."

I can compare the problem with NW to so much, but I'm in a Kingdom Hearts kind of mindset. Three is dunked of, and one of the major reasons was adjusting some of the best characters in the game to only perform as an equal or worse level than the bosses they're balanced for. Rather than trusting the player to build into certain bosses with certain strategies in mind, you're given a standard moveset with no depth to it. 1999 can spend a moment stalling for more 'Arthur' time, but when it takes away everything else, then Arthur should reflect everything else in some way. Even if he only inherits your weapon for some reason, or if he ends up only borrowing something you give him.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by (NSW)Free_Aetharus
1999 is my birth year yo, if ya know, ya know.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

Trust is a comfortable answer to every problem. Trust the players to know how to play.

Mm. Trusting a player to know how to play gets a little trickier when things like grind are taken into consideration; the notion of a game developer having to step in to stop players optimising their fun away isn’t unheard of, it’s just particularly hard in Warframe’s case because to do so would be to severely limit those options that some players enjoy and others feel locked into. And as a sandbox buildcrafting game with an inevitable meta that ultimately is unnecessary by design due to how progression works, it gets… complicated. And a large portion of that complication can come from players expecting something like strict vertical progression and then being blindsided by the notion of doing level 30 missions even though they can handle Steel Path

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

And a large portion of that complication can come from players expecting something like strict vertical progression and then being blindsided by the notion of doing level 30 missions even though they can handle Steel Path

At the very least, give me a canonical reason why I need to be rate-limited on the amount of times I can remind the boss that I've been playing, maybe literally, for 300 years and know a thing or two about tangoing, with my procs.

Like, maybe I'm captured from behind.
Or I'm trapped in the void with no way out and help isn't coming.
Or I got ambushed and my void powers were limited, trapping me inside of my warframe, or trapping me outside of my warframe.

Or give me a reason to be "DEFEATED" in the story and REQUIRE another character's explicit involvement just to avoid being unalive. Give me a reason, however cheap, however small, to be the factor that decides I cannot play at my best. Then, give me a plot-related excuse to get my powers back. Done deal. A logical nerf, a sound buff. It's not a buff, it's a perfect un-nerf.

(In the case of New War, tell me that I cannot use anything on the Orbiter without telling me I cannot use anything on the Orbiter. Not my Zarr? Not my Ayanga? Can I at least use Skia? Why am I unable to even use a basic skana? Where's my ability to utilize anything? I use a bow, a shock stick and a pistol just fine, yet I cannot use Lex, Lex Prime, or dual-wield Cestra... or another Lex. And there's no clarification as to why. Ordis clearly approves of Drifter being, at the very least, Operator-Adjacent, so authorization isn't really a mess of an issue when the ACTUAL authority is missing/dead.

Which is overall not a good reason to exclude those things. When New War mentions a LIMITED inventory, you'd think if you cannot use a warframe, you can at least use HALF of your builds, right? Wrong. It's not a limited loadout, it's not half a build. In the most practical and literal terms, you're not being limited on what you can use in your inventory, you're being restricted from using your inventory at all.)

Edited September 5, 2023 by (NSW)Free_Aetharus

[(NSW)Greybones]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

At the very least, give me a canonical reason why I need to be rate-limited on the amount of times I can remind the boss that I've been playing, maybe literally, for 300 years and know a thing or two about tangoing, with my procs.

Like, maybe I'm captured from behind.
Or I'm trapped in the void with no way out and help isn't coming.
Or I got ambushed and my void powers were limited, trapping me inside of my warframe, or trapping me outside of my warframe.

Or give me a reason to be "DEFEATED" in the story and REQUIRE another character's explicit involvement just to avoid being unalive. Give me a reason, however cheap, however small, to be the factor that decides I cannot play at my best. Then, give me a plot-related excuse to get my powers back. Done deal. A logical nerf, a sound buff. It's not a buff, it's a perfect un-nerf.

Go on. You’re building at your best so you can play at your worst. Not a problem with that, but you’re just gonna get squashed if the game convinced you to step out from behind your build and you’re going to want to do whatever possible in whatever cheesiest way you can to get back up there. A second long grind, if you will

Plus the cruelest irony of chasing the grind in this game is that most of it is pointless for someone who doesn’t want to use it. I think the notion of the game giving a canonical reason outside of my “Just because” would be cool, but I quite like Duviri’s randomiser because it gives me a reason to play around with different options beyond my initial “Because I feel like it”

Edited September 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Go on. You’re building at your best so you can play at your worst. Not a problem with that, but you’re just gonna get squashed if the game convinced you to step out from behind your build and you’re going to want to do whatever possible in whatever cheesiest way you can to get back up there. A second long grind, if you will

Plus the cruelest irony of chasing the grind in this game is that most of it is pointless for someone who doesn’t want to use it. I think the notion of the game giving a canonical reason outside of my “Just because” would be cool, but I quite like Duviri’s randomiser because it gives me a reason to play around with different options beyond my initial “Because I feel like it”

Duviri, I can give many passes to in terms of random reasons. It's fun, it's not the best, but it's not bad.

New War, and its follow-up... don't really work together.

 

I'd politely inquire to myself as to why anybody who's just woken up from sleep, including the archons, just-so-happen to know precisely how strong I am and wouldn't, to some extent, underestimate the operator as a first-confrontation, thinking little more than that the drifter is a gnat to be swatted, played with, and ultimately disregarded as nothing more than a tryhard diehard with suicide on their mind. Just a thought, but power scaling isn't really an excuse when Vor was constantly overestimating himself, thinking that his army was enough for a warframe, let alone a warframe that's active and absolutely on their way to kill him.

Underestimation is not a poor excuse to let anybody use their full power, it only sets up for the archon hunts as a content island, as the scaling in comparison is so different you'd definitely imagine that the archons genuinely didn't think twice about the danger you posed, which is the direct reason why they would lose. And follow-up encounters are more difficult because they are prepared and are expecting you, whether they're scared of you, absolutely hate you, or prepared specifically for you because you annoy them oh-so-much.

Yet, it's not reflected in lore that the archons ever underestimated you, or that they were at a fraction of their real power. Which is dandy.

Duviri still lets you build. Decrees are simultaneously the worst part of the content and the best part. And everything is balanced around decrees, so it's pretty much the ONLY part of the content that matters.

[(NSW)Greybones]

16 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

Duviri, I can give many passes to in terms of random reasons. It's fun, it's not the best, but it's not bad.

New War, and its follow-up... don't really work together.

 

I'd politely inquire to myself as to why anybody who's just woken up from sleep, including the archons, just-so-happen to know precisely how strong I am and wouldn't, to some extent, underestimate the operator as a first-confrontation, thinking little more than that the drifter is a gnat to be swatted, played with, and ultimately disregarded as nothing more than a tryhard diehard with suicide on their mind. Just a thought, but power scaling isn't really an excuse when Vor was constantly overestimating himself, thinking that his army was enough for a warframe, let alone a warframe that's active and absolutely on their way to kill him.

Underestimation is not a poor excuse to let anybody use their full power, it only sets up for the archon hunts as a content island, as the scaling in comparison is so different you'd definitely imagine that the archons genuinely didn't think twice about the danger you posed, which is the direct reason why they would lose. And follow-up encounters are more difficult because they are prepared and are expecting you, whether they're scared of you, absolutely hate you, or prepared specifically for you because you annoy them oh-so-much.

Yet, it's not reflected in lore that the archons ever underestimated you, or that they were at a fraction of their real power. Which is dandy.

Duviri still lets you build. Decrees are simultaneously the worst part of the content and the best part. And everything is balanced around decrees, so it's pretty much the ONLY part of the content that matters.

Hey, I wouldn’t mind some of the game justifying why I use everything in it in every way possible through things like lore. We’re still working from the modless base, the enemy is still using stats that aren’t ever-shifting and are using levels as guides for what kind of damage they can take and dish out, we’re still presented with the option between loading up on health and armour as Inaros to turn him into a fleshwall that can stand there tanking hits or relying on his abilities to keep him alive because of alternative building (I like the alternative, personally; more active).

Regarding Duviri, I’ve actually gone through and given every weapon and Warframe I have a config with the equivalent of a Peculiar mod to see what the most baseline can do and to give Decrees a chance to shine a little more, as well as making custom builds for the SP version. Possibly the only use I have for configs on weapons at least.

After some testing it feels like there’s some kind of building required even for the standard mode, though I find the DE-supplied builds erring on the easier side, possibly to cater to newbies, so I’m making builds that sit somewhere between the baseline and the DE-provided builds that make for custom gear that benefits from Decrees in desired ways. It’s like being able to take those weapons in games like Hades or Dead Cells and choose the bonuses on them, it’s great!

Edited September 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

58 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Hey, I wouldn’t mind some of the game justifying why I use everything in it in every way possible through things like lore.

Give me a reason to be torn down. Give me a reason to rise back up. If you taketh away, let me fully rise back to my peak.

 

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I find the DE-supplied builds erring on the easier side, possibly to cater to newbies

They really, really aren't suited for a difficulty higher than "Newbie," for reasons that are apparently not very obvious to a lot of people.

No DE-supplied build has ever been particularly transparent on what they're meant to be, or where they're meant to specialize in, so they try to fit every role and fall short in every role. Some don't use elements, or elemental combos, so you're left to find ways to apply them as direct counters to enemy defenses. They lack the status chance to exploit slash, they lack the specialization to be consistent, even if they fail in crits as a result, they succeed in it not mattering, since armor is less of a factor as the important trade-off. Crits will not, alone, even come close to doing as much damage to armor, even if every single hit were to crit miraculously. Because the point of armor is to shrug off and nullify their effects, whereas, straight slash hits the HP from the beginning and the enemy dies before the armor actually has to break at all.

The above is not relevant in casual, because, while enemies DO have armor, they don't scale as high and they're generally not considered much of a threat. You'll find SP circuit teams ending much earlier, regardless of the build they presumably built themselves, because even the SP-certifiable weapons don't pass the criteria to surpass wave 8. Casuals consistently REACH 8 and some even surpass 10. In that regard, I'd say my Felarx is the optimal weapon for None-casual, because at the very WORST, it three-shots a thax if all the pellets hit, and this is around wave 5-7. It's easier to be one-shot by literally everything, and even if my Felarx had EVERY decree[Damage-On-Reload, Accuracy-For-Multishot],  there's a certainty that after the first Jackal fight, you'll probably never be able to one-shot a thrax for the rest of the run. No matter how lucky you get with the 20x damage procs, on a weapon that has 30- 45 hits-per-shot, your equipment WILL peak and the enemies will NOT peak. Escavators will not scale, so you simply won't be capable of handling SP circuit beyond a wave above 15.

My record-high is 12 on SP and it was solo and my Felarx was aided by a revenant with rapidly-increasing ability strength, slowly making his mesmer even better as the rounds advance. That 12 is a fluke, because for the most part, I cannot stay awake after wave 4, because the moment I begin circuit, I literally can't bring myself to endure it, so I let randos carry. Even when I'm the strongest person on the team, which isn't often. And even if SP got miraculously nerfed for a number of reasons, I still wouldn't bother trying again.

I actually favor a lot of farms in a lot of different vanilla+ ways, but Duviri killed me by the end of my Cinta farm.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s like being able to take those weapons in games like Hades or Dead Cells

I wish Duviri WAS Hades. It would explain my immeasurable frustration with the decrees either being the crutch of an entire hour of experience... or the reason I fail after an entire hour of experience. I never fail experience, so my major issue is feeling like SP experience forces me to overfarm, resulting in me becoming overpowered, resulting in my losing interest in farming to do experience. At least Hades could make you overpowered in a balanced way, and still challenge you NOT to get hit while you are.

[(NSW)Greybones]

36 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

Give me a reason to be torn down. Give me a reason to rise back up. If you taketh away, let me fully rise back to my peak.

Endless sense of progression by starting you at the bottom repeatedly. Usually why I make new characters in WoW or Guildwars, though much easier and much nicer to pull off in Warframe. Plus I can sit wherever I want for however long I want instead of being pushed out of the fight

36 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

 

They really, really aren't suited for a difficulty higher than "Newbie," for reasons that are apparently not very obvious to a lot of people.

No DE-supplied build has ever been particularly transparent on what they're meant to be, or where they're meant to specialize in, so they try to fit every role and fall short in every role. Some don't use elements, or elemental combos, so you're left to find ways to apply them as direct counters to enemy defenses. They lack the status chance to exploit slash, they lack the specialization to be consistent, even if they fail in crits as a result, they succeed in it not mattering, since armor is less of a factor as the important trade-off. Crits will not, alone, even come close to doing as much damage to armor, even if every single hit were to crit miraculously. Because the point of armor is to shrug off and nullify their effects, whereas, straight slash hits the HP from the beginning and the enemy dies before the armor actually has to break at all.

The above is not relevant in casual, because, while enemies DO have armor, they don't scale as high and they're generally not considered much of a threat. You'll find SP circuit teams ending much earlier, regardless of the build they presumably built themselves, because even the SP-certifiable weapons don't pass the criteria to surpass wave 8. Casuals consistently REACH 8 and some even surpass 10. In that regard, I'd say my Felarx is the optimal weapon for None-casual, because at the very WORST, it three-shots a thax if all the pellets hit, and this is around wave 5-7. It's easier to be one-shot by literally everything, and even if my Felarx had EVERY decree[Damage-On-Reload, Accuracy-For-Multishot],  there's a certainty that after the first Jackal fight, you'll probably never be able to one-shot a thrax for the rest of the run. No matter how lucky you get with the 20x damage procs, on a weapon that has 30- 45 hits-per-shot, your equipment WILL peak and the enemies will NOT peak. Escavators will not scale, so you simply won't be capable of handling SP circuit beyond a wave above 15.

My record-high is 12 on SP and it was solo and my Felarx was aided by a revenant with rapidly-increasing ability strength, slowly making his mesmer even better as the rounds advance. That 12 is a fluke, because for the most part, I cannot stay awake after wave 4, because the moment I begin circuit, I literally can't bring myself to endure it, so I let randos carry. Even when I'm the strongest person on the team, which isn't often. And even if SP got miraculously nerfed for a number of reasons, I still wouldn't bother trying again.

I actually favor a lot of farms in a lot of different vanilla+ ways, but Duviri killed me by the end of my Cinta farm.

I wish Duviri WAS Hades. It would explain my immeasurable frustration with the decrees either being the crutch of an entire hour of experience... or the reason I fail after an entire hour of experience. I never fail experience, so my major issue is feeling like SP experience forces me to overfarm, resulting in me becoming overpowered, resulting in my losing interest in farming to do experience. At least Hades could make you overpowered in a balanced way, and still challenge you NOT to get hit while you are.

There’s only like, two versions of Duviri, right? Standard and SP. That’s why I’m using configs in the first place because I know what to expect and just need two versions; one for the balanced part of the game, one for the unbalanced part

Edited September 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[RichardKam]

15小时前 , Silligoose 说:

Core-Warframe entails the gameplay and mechanics encountered in the majority of the gameplay experience for the majority of players. That means dexterous frame movement options interwoven with melee and gunplay offense, complimented with ability use. It is the gameplay players are introduced to at the start. The gameplay engaged with time and time again over various planets and mission types on base Star Chart. Not that hard to define it. Not that hard to recognize it, or to recognize what isn't it. RJ isn't it. Kahl isn't it. Drifter isn't it.

You mean it is "your" definition. 

Operator is slow without "dexterous movement" so it is not "Warframe".

Ivara doing stealth mission is not offensive and not fast, so it is not "Warframe".

RJ has 50% "core-Warframe" mission (push that number to 75% for corpus jack). Kahl has melee and gunplay. Drifter has ability use and gun and melee. Even by your definition, they seem very "Warframe-ish" to me.

Archwing is fast, has melee, gun, and ability. But if I claim archwing is the ultimate Warframe experience I will be receiving 100+ reports and this thread will be locked in less than 1 minute.

Also, where is fashion? Where is co-op? Where is the grind? Where is the power fantasy? 

Anyway. My point is that there is no consensus on the definition of "Warframe". Not even DE can give you that. And even if DE does, it won't be universally accepted by the community because everyone has a different definition of and expectation from this chaotic-good sandbox game. From a purely logical argument, debating whether something "is not Warframe" is futile and a waste of time because nothing is defined as "not something".

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

42 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

one for the balanced part of the game, one for the unbalanced part

The perfectly, perfectful, perfecting "One weapon for mortals. One weapon for monsters." build, I see.

[Silligoose]

8 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

You mean it is "your" definition. 

Operator is slow without "dexterous movement" so it is not "Warframe".

Ivara doing stealth mission is not offensive and not fast, so it is not "Warframe".

RJ has 50% "core-Warframe" mission (push that number to 75% for corpus jack). Kahl has melee and gunplay. Drifter has ability use and gun and melee. Even by your definition, they seem very "Warframe-ish" to me.

Archwing is fast, has melee, gun, and ability. But if I claim archwing is the ultimate Warframe experience I will be receiving 100+ reports and this thread will be locked in less than 1 minute.

Also, where is fashion? Where is co-op? Where is the grind? Where is the power fantasy? 

Anyway. My point is that there is no consensus on the definition of "Warframe". Not even DE can give you that. And even if DE does, it won't be universally accepted by the community because everyone has a different definition of and expectation from this chaotic-good sandbox game. From a purely logical argument, debating whether something "is not Warframe" is futile and a waste of time because nothing is defined as "not something".

It appears you are struggling to discern differences in game mechanics and rules within different gameplay experiences. I suggest materials such as A Theory of Fun for Game Design by Raph Koster, Game Design Workshop: A Playcentric Approach to Creating Innovative Games by Tracy Fullerton, The Art of Game Design by Jesse Schell and branching out from there.

[(NSW)Greybones]

36 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

The perfectly, perfectful, perfecting "One weapon for mortals. One weapon for monsters." build, I see.

Haha. More like “One weapon for fun, the other for nonsense unbalance”. Usually the standard will be drawing from the pool of most ways I can build, while the SP one will be designed to hit or otherwise kill as hard/fast as possible because I can’t be bothered trying to figure out SP, so I just smack it as hard as possible. I’ve also considered making even more configs for standard that are overpowered for the content, but has more customisation than what my SP build would.

Incidentally, all this talk about Duviri made me want to jump in again which I haven’t done in a while because I’m busy; Jackal’s a good fight! I have to agree with some players when they say some boss fights need work, but corrupted jackal was pretty good

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

Corrupted jackal was pretty good

It was, wasn't it?

Could it have been the fair and perfectly reasonable intermission between phases, where the boss is invincible but only because of the reinforcements sort of justifying it?

Could it have been the lack of any one-shot potential, while every time a limb is destroyed, it enters a very powerful, very appealing attack phase?

Could it, let's imagine, have been the many AOE attacks, including the shockwave that knocks you back, giving some actual incentive to dodge and avoid instead of tank its moves?
Maybe even the need to play smarter in order to perform a finisher between phases, before the boss recovers and needs to be downed again?

Maybe, I'm just giving out a suggestion, not sure it's any good...

The boss as a whole is not more basic than Ariana Grande and actually has respectable balance?

Sure, it scales pretty high in Steel Path, so it CAN one shot you. It has bullS#&$ homing missiles that I sort of admire. It has all the hallmark traits of a good boss, because it lasts. It's not necessarily a slow boss and you CAN beat it quickly-- but it's the sort of boss that is balanced well enough that it will ALWAYS have a chance to get one over on you, if you get sloppy, but at the same time, so long as you're not a total moron, you can beat this boss even as high as the level cap. Unfortunately... defense and excavation would beg to differ. You'll never reach cap, but I'm sure you could beat the boss at the level cap and it'd be PERFECTLY enjoyable. Sadistic? Obviously. Fun? Yes.

 

Base jackal was also fun. Very good boss, inherently the better of the bosses in Warframe. DE should take MORE notes and follow this boss' example.

[(NSW)Greybones]

36 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

It was, wasn't it?

Could it have been the fair and perfectly reasonable intermission between phases, where the boss is invincible but only because of the reinforcements sort of justifying it?

Could it have been the lack of any one-shot potential, while every time a limb is destroyed, it enters a very powerful, very appealing attack phase?

Could it, let's imagine, have been the many AOE attacks, including the shockwave that knocks you back, giving some actual incentive to dodge and avoid instead of tank its moves?
Maybe even the need to play smarter in order to perform a finisher between phases, before the boss recovers and needs to be downed again?

Maybe, I'm just giving out a suggestion, not sure it's any good...

The boss as a whole is not more basic than Ariana Grande and actually has respectable balance?

Sure, it scales pretty high in Steel Path, so it CAN one shot you. It has bullS#&$ homing missiles that I sort of admire. It has all the hallmark traits of a good boss, because it lasts. It's not necessarily a slow boss and you CAN beat it quickly-- but it's the sort of boss that is balanced well enough that it will ALWAYS have a chance to get one over on you, if you get sloppy, but at the same time, so long as you're not a total moron, you can beat this boss even as high as the level cap. Unfortunately... defense and excavation would beg to differ. You'll never reach cap, but I'm sure you could beat the boss at the level cap and it'd be PERFECTLY enjoyable. Sadistic? Obviously. Fun? Yes.

 

Base jackal was also fun. Very good boss, inherently the better of the bosses in Warframe. DE should take MORE notes and follow this boss' example.

Agreed. Those are pretty good points. I think a lot of times a boss is barely registered by many players because it’s designed around gradients of damage to both itself and the player, but often those aren’t experienced because the boss is tied to a level and players will bring whatever they can to not have to deal with it.

Maybe it’s Duviri forcing players to break up their power loadouts as well and they can’t do things like rely on shieldgating. I certainly wouldn’t mind if bosses were designed more like this

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

57 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Haha. More like “One weapon for fun, the other for nonsense unbalance”. Usually the standard will be drawing from the pool of most ways I can build, while the SP one will be designed to hit or otherwise kill as hard/fast as possible because I can’t be bothered trying to figure out SP, so I just smack it as hard as possible. I’ve also considered making even more configs for standard that are overpowered for the content, but has more customisation than what my SP build would.

Oh no, this single enemy still has a healthbar

Time to nuke it and every nonliving god to dust with my secondary