Recording my pre- and post-rework stat changes

[Qriist]

On 2023-09-28 at 12:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Base vs Final Stats in Modding - Health / Energy / Shield / Armor Stat Overhaul

With tomorrow's massive stat overhaul looming large, I thought it would be interesting to observe how my build numbers fluctuate without me doing anything.

I've went ahead and recorded the stats of the frames I use, to include the mods/arcanes/shards which generated the numbers.

Since many of my builds have Arcane Blessing and/or Arcane Reaper I have provided a Min / Max value on Health and Armor. On a similar note, I have Amber Archon shards in multiple frames buffing the starting Energy so that stat reads as Starting / Max values. I haven't bothered with shield values unless I modded shield capacity for some reason.

There's a good mix of survivability sources throughout all of the frames which should allow me to identify any unexpected interactions caused by the overhaul.

Citrine

Quote

Archon Flow, Archon Vitality, Arcane Blessing, Tauforged Amber +45% Starting Energy

Pre-

• Health 999 / 2199
• Armor 250
• Energy 304 / 510
• EHP 1832 / 4032

Post-

• Health 1000 / 2200
• Armor 265
• Energy 305 / 513
• EHP 1883 / 4143

Excalibur Umbra

Quote

Umbral Intensify, Umbral Fiber, Umbral Vitality, Arcane Blessing, Arcane Reaper

Pre-

• Health 1070 / 2270
• Armor 877 / 1537
• Energy 100 / 225
• EHP 4198 / 13900

Post-

• Health 1036 / 2236
• Armor 882 / 1542
• Energy 100 / 225
• EHP 2236 / 13729

Gyre

Quote

Primed Flow, Arcane Blessing, Tauforged Azure +225 Armor

Pre-

• Health 300 / 1500
• Armor 325
• Energy 145 / 680
• EHP 625 / 3125

Post-

• Health 370 / 1570
• Armor 330
• Energy 145 / 684
• EHP 777 / 3297

Harrow Prime

Quote

Vitality, Primed Flow, 2x Azure +150 Armor

Pre-

• Health 740
• Armor 475
• Energy 531 / 531
• EHP 1912

Post-

• Health 740
• Armor 485
• Energy 541 / 541
• EHP 1936

Hildryn Prime

Quote

Archon Vitality, Redirection, Boreal's Hatred, Vigor, Arcane Blessing

Pre-

• Health 860 / 2060
• Armor 300
• Shield 5035
• Overshield 6235
• EHP 1720 / 4120

Post-

• Health 924 / 2124
• Armor 315
• Shield 5922
• Overshield 7122
• EHP 1894 / 4354

Kullervo

Quote

Umbral Riber, Umbral Vitality, Umbral Intensify, R2 Flow, Arcane Blessing, Arcane Reaper

Pre-

• Health 3477 / 4677
• Armor 1275 / 1935
• Energy 150 / 338
• EHP 18254 / 34844

Post-

• Health 3374 / 4574
• Armor 1820 / 2480
• Energy 150 / 338
• EHP 23842 / 42385

 

Mesa Prime

Quote

Primed Flow, Archon Vitality, Steel Fiber

Pre-

• Health 999
• Armor 262
• Energy 65 / 550
• EHP 1871

Post-

• Health 1000
• Armor 270
• Energy 65 / 561
• EHP 1900

 

Mirage Prime

Quote

Primed Flow

Pre-

• Health 240
• Armor 175
• Energy 150 / 638
• EHP 380

Post-

• Health 300
• Armor 185
• Energy 150 / 641
• EHP 485

Nekros Prime

Quote

Physique, Arcane Blessing

Pre-

• Health 390 / 1590
• Armor 125
• Energy 85 / 188
• EHP 553 / 2253

Post-

• Health 444 / 1644
• Armor 135
• Energy 85 / 190
• EHP  643 / 2383

Nezha Prime

Quote

Archon Vitality, Primed Flow, Arcane Blessing

Pre-

• Health 925 / 2125
• Armor 250
• Energy 150 / 638
• EHP 1696 / 3896

Post-

• Health 930 / 2130
• Armor 265
• Energy 150 / 641
• EHP 1751 / 4011

Octavia Prime

Quote

Primed Flow, Arcane Blessing, Amber Archon Shard +30% Starting Energy, 2x Azure +150 Armor

Pre-

• Health 300 / 1500
• Armor 450
• Energy 328 / 744
• EHP 750 / 3750

Post-

• Health 370 / 1570
• Armor 460
• Energy 331 / 755
• EHP 937 / 3977

Protea

Quote

Archon Vitality, Primed Flow

Pre-

• Health 740 / 1940
• Armor 125
• Energy 95 / 638
• EHP 1048 / 2748

Post-

• Heatlh 740 / 1940
• Armor 135
• Energy 95 / 641
• EHP 1073 / 2813

Saryn Prime

Quote

Physique, Primed Flow, Umbral Vitality, Umbral Intensify, Arcane Blessing, Amber +30% Starting Energy

Pre-

• Health 1175 / 2375
• Armor 300
• Energy 355 / 850
• EHP 2350 / 4750

Post-

• Health 1162 / 2362
• Armor 315
• Energy 356 / 855
• EHP 2382 / 4842

Titania Prime

Quote

Boreal's Hatred, Primed Flow, Archon Vitality, Amber +30% Starting Energy

Pre-

• Health 925
• Armor 125
• Energy 328 / 744
• Shield 450
• EHP 1310

Post-

• Health 930
• Armor 135
• Energy 331 / 755
• Shield 611
• EHP 1348

 

Valkyr Prime

Quote

Umbral Intensify, Umbral Fiber, Arcane Blessing

Pre-

• Health 300 / 1500
• Armor 1662
• Energy 225
• EHP 1962 / 9810

Post-

• Health 370 / 1570
• Armor 1690
• Energy 105 / 225
• EHP 2454 / 10414

 

Vauban Prime

Quote

Primed Flow, Arcane Blessing

Pre-

• Health 300 / 1500
• Armor 200
• Energy 120 / 638
• EHP 500 / 2500

Post-

• Health 370 / 1570
• Armor 210
• Energy 120 / 641
• EHP 629 / 2669

Wukong Prime

Quote

Primed Flow, Archon Vitality, Arcane Blessing, Arcane Reaper

Pre-

• Health 1110 / 2310
• Armor 275 / 935
• Energy 65 / 553
• EHP 2128 / 9510

Post-

• Health 1110 / 2310
• Armor 290 / 950
• Energy 65 / 556
• EHP 2183 / 9625

Xaku

Quote

Primed Flow, Arcane Blessing, Tauforged Azure +75 Energy Max, Amber +30% Starting Energy

Pre-

• Health 291 / 1491
• Armor 137
• Energy 272 / 725
• EHP 2172

Post-

• Health 359 / 1559
• Armor 146
• Energy 274 / 730
• EHP 533 / 2317

 

One of my main pets as of late is a Hound (Garmr/Hec/Urga/Wanz) that I've built to be super tanky. He uses Link-Health, Link-Armor, and Synth Fiber to buff its health and armor stats. These are each dynamically updated while in combat but I have handjammed expected Max Armor values based on wiki information due to it being basically impossible to check armor values outside the arsenal.

HP is much easier to check so I will show the observed Min / Max.

Galvanic Paw

Quote

Link-Health, Link-Armor, Synth Fiber

Max Pet Armor formula:
    (base_armor + (warframe_current_armor * 1.10)) * 2

In this specific pet, base_armor = 180.
The above expression assumes Synth Fiber is active. Per the wiki, Synth Fiber doubles armor after Link Armor is considered.

Because Link Armor takes the Warframe's full current armor value, I have naturally plugged in the given Warframe's Max armor value, if available, for the pet's Max armor. In the data below, this particular caveat applies to Excalibur Umbra, Kullervo, and Wukong.

I have not applied a given frame's Warcry armor bonus, even though 4 of my frames use it. In theory, a pet with Link Armor double dips on Warcry (by gaining armor through Link Armor and its own active Warcry buff) but I have absolutely no way to see that value to know where in the formula the buff might apply.

Finally, the arsenal floors the displayed result so I will too.

(template used below)
Accompanied Warframe
    Hound Starting HP / with R5 Arcane Blessing x50
    Hound Starting Armor / Max Armor
    Hound Min EHP / Max EHP

Pre -> Post

• Citrine
      Health: 1778 / 3758  ->  1703 / 3203
      Armor: 455 / 1361  ->  871 / 1525
      EHP: 4475 / 20807  ->  6647 / 19485
• Excalibur Umbra
     Health: 1895 / 3875  ->  1748 / 3248
     Armor: 1144 / 3741  ->  1642 / 4742
     EHP: 9121 / 52196  ->  11315 / 54588
• Gyre
     Health: 625 / 2605  ->  916 / 2416
     Armor: 537 / 1541  ->  952 / 1725
     EHP: 1744 / 15986  ->  3823 / 16308
• Harrow Prime
     Health: 1351  ->  1378
     Armor: 702 / 1904  -> 1146 / 2112.5
     EHP: 4512 / 9925  ->  6642 / 11081
• Hildryn Prime
     Health: 1549 / 3529  ->  1608 / 3108
     Armor: 510 / 1482  ->  933 / 1687.5
     EHP: 4182 / 20962  ->  6609 / 20590
• Kullervo
     Health: 5867 / 7847  ->  4671 / 6171
     Armor: 1582 / 4617  ->  2814 / 7100
     EHP: 36806 / 128612 (not a typo lol)
         ->  48485 / 152218 (still not a typo)
• Mesa Prime
     Health: 1778  ->  1703
     Armor: 468 / 1389  -> 877 /  1575
     EHP: 4552 / 10010  ->  6681 / 10644
• Mirage Prime
     Health: 526  ->  828
     Armor: 372 / 1178  ->  771 / 1362.5
     EHP: 1178 / 2591  ->  2956 / 4588
• Nekros Prime
     Health: 773 / 2753  ->  1008 / 1644
     Armor: 104 / 588  ->  708 / 1237.5
     EHP: 1041 / 8149  ->  3387 / 8425
• Nezha Prime
     Health: 1656 / 3636  ->  1616 / 3116
     Armor: 455 / 1361  ->  871 / 1562.5
     EHP: 4168 / 20131  ->  6308 / 19345
• Octavia Prime
     Health: 625 / 2605  ->  916 / 466
     Armor: 674 / 1842  ->  1114 / 2050
     EHP: 2029 / 18600  ->  4317 / 3650
• Protea
     Health: 1351  ->  1378
     Armor: 317 / 1057  ->  708 / 1237.5
     EHP:  2779 / 6111  ->  4630 / 7062
• Saryn Prime
     Health: 2068 / 4048  ->  1906 / 3406
     Armor: 510 / 1482  ->  933 / 1687.5
     EHP: 5584 / 24045  ->  7834 / 22564
• Vauban Prime
     Health: 625 / 2605  ->  916 / 2416
     Armor: 399 / 1237  ->  802 / 1425
     EHP: 1456 / 13346  ->  3365 / 13892
• Valkyr Prime 
     Health: 625 / 2605  ->  916 / 2416
     Armor: 2008 / 4777  -> 2652 / 5125
     EHP: 4808 / 44085  ->  9013 / 43689
• Wukong Prime
     Health: 1961 / 9341  ->  1841 / 3341
     Armor: 482 / 1420  ->  902 / 3275
     EHP: 5112 / 53555  ->  7376 / 39814
• Xaku
     Health: 610 / 2590  ->  902 / 2402
     Armor: 330 / 1086  ->  722 / 1265
     EHP: 1281 / 11966  ->  3073 / 12530

 

Lastly, we have my well-modded Archwing and Necramech to record.

Amesha

Quote

Enhanced Durability, Argon Plating, Auxiliary Power

Pre-

• Health 1800
• Armor 380
• Energy 55 / 540
• EHP 4080

Post-

• Health 1800
• Armor 390
• Energy 55 / 540
• EHP 4140

 

Voidrig

Quote

Necramech Flow, Necramech Vitality, Necramech Redirection, Necramech Steel Fiber

Pre-

• Health 4800
• Armor 760
• Energy 150 / 450
• EHP 16960

Post-

• Health 4800
• Armor 770
• Energy 150 / 450
• EHP 17120

 

This should be a useful reference to understand how the upcoming changes affect frames that are actually in use.

Obviously, will update tomorrow after the patch drops.

All stats updated!

So, main takeaways.
 

• Almost everything got a slight buff of a few dozen to a few hundred EHP.
• A select few frames got much larger armor buffs and that's reflected in their correspondingly sizeable additional EHP.
• Excalibur Umbra and Saryn actually lost some EHP due to the nerfs to the Umbral set.
• Kullervo also uses full Umbral but he still came out ahead due to his more massive base stat increase.
• Most doggo versions experienced the same up and down in stats.
• Kullervo's doggo has an EHP of 1.5 million while Reflex Denial is online. Probably even more thanks to K's Warcry. :D

On the whole, this was a decent incremental buff across the board. A few major outliers (and a headscratching nerf to the Umbral set), but seems pretty balanced. 

 

Spoiler

seriously wtf lmao

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Qriist

[Hexerin]

Interacting to follow for results, because curious.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Interacting to follow for results, because curious.

Just uh... Hit the "follow topic" button at the bottom of the post ...

Edited October 17, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[Hexerin]

50 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Just uh... Hit the "follow topic" button at the bottom of the post ...

Top of the post (at least on PC), but you can also set things up to automatically follow anything you post in.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Not entirely sure how useful this will be as a reference since this seems to be assuming one build per frame or something, but I guess it’ll be a data point

[Qriist]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

this seems to be assuming one build per frame

Yes, these are my builds.

[Hexerin]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Not entirely sure how useful this will be as a reference since this seems to be assuming one build per frame or something, but I guess it’ll be a data point

Considering the changes are being made from the standpoint of "everyone equips all three primary survival mods (Fiber, Vitality, and Redirection)" which is just false on so many levels, seeing how things actually affect everyone is good data to have. Grendel players are already known to be getting screwed over super hard, for example.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Hexerin

[(NSW)Greybones]

24 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Considering the changes are being made from the standpoint of "everyone equips all three primary survival mods (Fiber, Vitality, and Redirection)" which is just false on so many levels, seeing how things actually affect everyone is good data to have. Grendel players are already known to be getting screwed over super hard, for example.

Who said that everyone’s equipping all three primary survival mods?

I can see if they said something like players are only equipping certain mods all the time, because most of them do, but the three primary survival mods aren’t even necessary all the time (I’ve less concern whether Grendel is nerfed because I think in general players could stand to either have less survival or enemies hit harder in parts of the standard content, which makes these shield changes of particular interest from a “I hope survival isn’t overblown by default” perspective)

Edited October 18, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Qriist]

Worked out my Hound's in-combat armor values, added proper EHP values.

Now we just need the patch to release. :D

[Aruquae]

15 hours ago, Qriist said:

With tomorrow's massive stat overhaul looming large, I thought it would be interesting to observe how my build numbers fluctuate without me doing anything.

I've went ahead and recorded the stats of the frames I use, to include the mods/arcanes/shards which generated the numbers.

Since many of my builds have Arcane Blessing and/or Arcane Reaper I have provided a Min / Max value on Health and Armor. On a similar note, I have Amber Archon shards in multiple frames buffing the starting Energy so that stat reads as Starting / Max values. I haven't bothered with shield values unless I modded shield capacity for some reason.

There's a good mix of survivability sources throughout all of the frames which should allow me to identify any unexpected interactions caused by the overhaul.

Citrine

Excalibur Umbra

Gyre

Harrow Prime

Hildryn Prime

Kullervo

 

Mesa Prime

 

Mirage Prime

Nekros Prime

Nezha Prime

Octavia Prime

Protea

Saryn Prime

Titania Prime

Vauban Prime

Valkyr Prime

Wukong Prime

Xaku

 

One of my main pets as of late is a Hound (Garmr/Hec/Urga/Wanz) that I've built to be super tanky. He uses Link-Health, Link-Armor, and Synth Fiber to buff its health and armor stats. These are each dynamically updated while in combat but I have handjammed expected Max Armor values based on wiki information due to it being basically impossible to check armor values outside the arsenal.

HP is much easier to check so I will show the observed Min / Max.

Galvanic Paw

 

Lastly, we have my well-modded Archwing and Necramech to record.

Amesha

 

Voidrig

 

This should be a useful reference to understand how the upcoming changes affect frames that are actually in use.

Obviously, will update tomorrow after the patch drops.

Did a bit of calculations too

Voruna lost 5 energy. With her low energy it ahh kinda sucks, but tbf 5 energy doesn’t really mean anything for her. Garuda also gained 31 energy with a primed flow, which is great 👍 All of the other stats seemed to have been the same with the exception of like 1 extra health/shield/energy, or if you have two Umbral mods.
 

[Qriist]

12 minutes ago, Malikili said:

Did a bit of calculations too

Voruna lost 5 energy. With her low energy it ahh kinda sucks, but tbf 5 energy doesn’t really mean anything for her. Garuda also gained 31 energy with a primed flow, which is great 👍 All of the other stats seemed to have been the same with the exception of like 1 extra health/shield/energy, or if you have two Umbral mods.
 

God I love math, lol.

[Aruquae]

Just now, Qriist said:

God I love math, lol.

When it comes to school I hate it, when it comes to Warframe though… NASA scientist level. Modding unironically helped with algebra and maybe even calc.

[SneakyErvin]

Uhm just a question. How uhm do you uh calculate your EHP?

Hildryn for instance. 

16 hours ago, Qriist said:

Archon Vitality, Redirection, Boreal's Hatred, Vigor, Arcane Blessing

Pre-

• Health 860 / 2060
• Armor 300
• Shield 5035
• Overshield 6235
• EHP 1720 / 4120

2060 HP

300 Armor

5035 shields

4120??? EHP

Even without factoring in armor to her health or the 50% reduction to shields or overshields she'd have an EHP of atleast 7095 which is HP and shields added together. How did you end up at less EHP than what her actual "health" is?

[Qriist]

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Uhm just a question. How uhm do you uh calculate your EHP?

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

which is HP and shields added together

Shield is not HP. HP is HP. EHP is armor-applied HP.

EHP = nominal_health ⋅ ((net_armor + 300) / 300)

My Hildryn build's EHP = 2060 ⋅ ((300 + 300) / 300) = 4120

Edited October 18, 2023 by Qriist

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Qriist said:

Shield is not HP. HP is HP. EHP is armor-applied HP.

EHP = nominal_health ⋅ ((net_armor + 300) / 300)

Hildryn's EHP = 2060 ⋅ ((300 + 300) / 300) = 4120

It is all part of effective health since it is all a combined sum of how much damage a frame can take before they die. And in Hildryn's case it severely scews the stats since her actual EHP from just her shield is far higher, meaning she can survive longer and versus harder hits already just through her shield.

Ignoring shields in the calculation really only works if you calculate EHP versus one specific damage type i.e toxin.

In reality, you should have actually included shields for every frame that has them, otherwise you wont actually get any worthwhile stats after the changes. Since if you dont record the current shields and health+armor gets reduced but shields increase on some frame, it will look like a nerf while it might actually be a buff when you also add in the extra increased DR shields will recieve in the patch.

[Qriist]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is all part of effective health since it is all a combined sum of how much damage a frame can take before they die.

I was not aware that EHP included an ouroboros in the formula.

 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

In reality, you should have actually included shields for every frame that has them.

No.

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, Qriist said:

I was not aware that EHP included an ouroboros in the formula.

It does since it is still part of the total amount of health that needs to be removed before a frame dies. It doesnt matter if there is a invulnerability window in between, the shields still needs to be removed first, so are very much part of the effective health. Like for Hildryn, the mobs need to remove the 5035 shields first, that also come with a 25% (50% after patch) damage reduction, then if her health is still exposed after the invulnerability window they need to remove a further 2060 HP affected by armor that results in them having to deal 4120 damage to kill her. It just as with Iron Skin, if you get a value of 30000 on cast you've effectively increased Rhino's EHP with 30000 even if it adds a 1.5 second invulnerability window with a further window after that when shields are gone. The only thing you cannot accurately translate to EHP are things that dont come with specific health values, like Mesmer Skin.

40 minutes ago, Qriist said:

No.

Yes, otherwise what you do is completely pointless.

[Qriist]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes, otherwise what you do is completely pointless.

You're allowed to be wrong.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Qriist said:

You're allowed to be wrong.

I'm not wrong though, since with lacking stats you wont be able to compare if you actually ended up with more or less EHP. And that is really the only interesting part to look at, since it doesnt matter if stats shift around incase the EHP is the same or potentially higher. Because that is the number that determines what you can or cannot live through.

[Qriist]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not wrong though, since with lacking stats you wont be able to compare if you actually ended up with more or less EHP. And that is really the only interesting part to look at, since it doesnt matter if stats shift around incase the EHP is the same or potentially higher. Because that is the number that determines what you can or cannot live through.

I have omitted no relevant stats, for shields are not HP. I don't care about your incorrect interpretation.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Qriist said:

I have omitted no relevant stats, for shields are not HP. I don't care about your incorrect interpretation.

Then you clearly dont care about your stats either, so why exactly do this?

[Qriist]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then you clearly dont care about your stats either, so why exactly do this?

Because I care about my stats. I don't want them tainted by your illogical additions.

[SneakyErvin]

10 minutes ago, Qriist said:

Because I care about my stats. I don't want them tainted by your illogical additions.

Clearly you dont since you ignore one of the defensive stats available to you that impact your actual EHP. That it now adds a gate upon depletion doesnt matter, it is still part of the total regarding how much damage an enemy needs to deal to you in order to kill you. It's just that it was easy to add it as a flat stat earlier since it wasnt modified by anything. So if your EHP ended up at 4000 and you also had 300 shields you'd have 4300 EHP, that isnt the case now since shields have innate DR aswell as the gate, they are however still part of your EHP since they do in the end need to be removed from enemy damage before the enemy gets to your health.

It is impossible for Hildryn for instance to have an EHP of 4120 when her shields are on their own higher than that without any modifiers included even. The gate is there no matter if 1 shield or 5000 shields are active, but there is a massive difference in how long 5000 shields last in comparison to 1 unless the incoming damage is 5000 or higher. So again that means shields add to EHP i.e the total punishment you can take.

[Qriist]

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So again that means shields add to EHP i.e the total punishment you can take.

Fine, here you go, plugged shields into the formula. Feel better?
 

 Hildryn Prime

Quote

Archon Vitality, Redirection, Boreal's Hatred, Vigor, Arcane Blessing

Pre-

• Health 860 / 2060
• Armor 300
• Shield 5035
• Overshield 6235
• EHP ∞ / ∞

 

[Hexerin]

10 hours ago, Malikili said:

Did a bit of calculations too

Voruna lost 5 energy. With her low energy it ahh kinda sucks, but tbf 5 energy doesn’t really mean anything for her. Garuda also gained 31 energy with a primed flow, which is great 👍 All of the other stats seemed to have been the same with the exception of like 1 extra health/shield/energy, or if you have two Umbral mods.
 

Wouldn't even have noticed the loss of energy, since the build I use doesn't really consume any energy. Ulfrun's Endurance is great.

7 hours ago, Qriist said:

You're allowed to be wrong.

Ervin's actually correct here. EHP is "effective hit points" which is "how many points of damage an enemy has to hit you with to kill you". As damage has to deplete your shields before it can deplete your health, shields are part of the formula. EHP formulae omit things that are finite duration with no assignable "capacity" value, like Warframe's shield gate, of course. The only exception to this is toxin damage, which has its own formula (two of them in fact, one for Hildryn and one for everyone else).

This has been the case for as long as games have been a thing (before you and I were even born), it's not unique to Warframe.