The Warframe Augment system requires a rework

[Ziggums]

Currently, augments are in a very undesirable state where key parts of many warframes' ability to function costs them mod slots. This becomes a problem when augments provide incredibly minor quality of life or several augments at once become necesary just to make the frame playable-- which feels like it's bringing back the worst elements of the old ability system where warframe abilities had to be equipped as mods. It's needlessly restrictive and narrows down customization-- the entire point of modding as a system, due to warframe augments being downright necesary.

Most recently, gyre is the most recent example, as a frame that requires an augment that downright requires an augment to be playable at a remotely acceptable level.

Personally, i would really like to see augments be reworked to a system akin to incarnon's upgrade systems,a pseudo-skilltree where doing certain objectives as the frame youre playing as over time unlocks them augments or number upgrades to help keep them in-line with stronger frames, with the trees gradually growing over time with more options as the frames get older and more outdated. Older frames would have larger trees than newer ones, allowing em to pick between different traits and ability enhancements, which could also help reduce the need for constant reworks as older frames would naturally be kept within the power-curve with minor buffs as their trees and options grow.

At least, that's what i'd personally like to see. Theres a ton of ways to fix the augment system but something like this is what i'm personally drawn to. It worked well on incarnons! i think it can work well on warframes too with enough tweaks.

[PollexMessier]

Augments are made doubly problematic with Subsumable abilities that are basically worthless without their augment.

I think adding two augment-only mod slots would be a decent solution. Still allowing them to be put in normal slots if you want more. Giving people the ability to just have all of them is I think a bit too op on certain frames. And would probably severely limit how powerful DE would be willing to make future ones, and lead to massive nerfs of some existing ones.

Something definitely needs to be done about them.

[Stafelund]

Feed the augments to Helminth and choose what you want to apply there, with limit of one to two augments you can use per frame.

[Divinehero]

12 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

Feed the augments to Helminth and choose what you want to apply there, with limit of one to two augments you can use per frame.

 

i could get behind somethign like that maybe w/ some small penalty attached for balance? i dunno

[Birdframe_Prime]

Honestly, the sentiment is real, but the methods suggested so far in the thread show an absolute dearth of realism in their approach.

One is just the tired, repeatedly asked for and repeatedly denied by DE, idea of dedicated slots. (People really need to stop asking for that and start asking for a more in-depth option, similar to OP...)

And the other is just effectively a dedicated slot, but like an Archon Shard so it doesn't cost any mod points.

Here's the break-down of the problem: Either an Augment is powerful enough to warrant a full mod slot because of the buff it gives the ability, or it isn't powerful enough and wouldn't be used even in the manner of a dedicated slot.

That's it. That's the problem right there.

The third point can be valid, where the Ability that gets Augmented is so weak that the Augment is either worth the regular Mod Slot due to making the Ability useful, or the band-aid isn't powerful enough and the Ability is going to get removed with Helminth anyway, but that still basically falls under the original either/or problem.

Either powerful, or not.

So, realistically speaking, there's only a couple of methods to get the system overhauled.

The first is the 'simple but difficult' route: go over every Augment, and every weak Ability, and take it case by case to make the Ability and the Augment both powerful, meaning that with or without the Augment the Ability works, and then make the Augment worth a regular mod slot on top of that.

The second is the 'simple, but disappointing' route: take the opposite end result of the first option, where you go over every Ability and Augment and, by virtue of making the Ability better, you then don't need the Augment and it's pure Utility making it possible to slot that Augment into either the Exilus or a new dedicated slot for reduced cost. This route would also be how you get OP's suggestion, where the upgrade tree method would then add utility instead of functions.

As a note: OP's idea shows promise, but is that same problem of getting the extra functions on the Ability for no Mod Points, which are the limitations that DE have imposed for us to work with. Without the changes to the base Abilities, and making the upgrade tree only add minimal functions and a lot of Utility, this method wouldn't fly under DE's current mentality towards Modding overall.

There's a third option that was proposed years ago that would make a Dedicated Slot possible: Augments affect the entire Warframe's kit. This is the one that has the most amount of work, and the most amount of balancing and patching, but would result in the most in-depth quality for builds on Warframes. In this you turn Augments into almost Class Modifiers for the frame.

Now, this is just off the top of my head, it may turn out horrible, or it may give you ideas:

Spoiler

Take a basic frame like Excal for an example; have a dedicated slot and use Surging Dash. This is an Augment built around increasing the damage of Slash Dash and his Blade by increasing the Combo Counter. This is a basic Augment currently and very few people use it when there are more powerful options. So what if, instead, it rebalanced Excal's kit around his 1 to turn him into a Slash Dash maniac that hurtled around the battlefield at enemies, ignoring Defense like Shields and Armour, blinding and using Javelin to mark enemies for combo status, and EB itself losing its higher functionality in favour of putting all that potential power into Slash Dash.

Or Radiant Finish, which allows for Finishers on enemies to have bonus damage, currently, but when done in this new manner Excal can use additional functions rebalanced around Blind to stay in stealth, launch blades from EB that cut Blinded enemies with no travel time (but no damage is dealt to non-blinded enemies), Javelin loses its damage to instead root all enemies it touches to allow for consistent Finishers, and Slash Dash becomes more like Ash's Teleport that specifically travels to Blinded enemies. The increase in targeted damage would be insane, the AoE damage would only affect enemies that have been Blinded, but Excal does still have guns and EB's base blade in order to get rid of Overguard so that he can include them in the massively increased potential of his Augmented kit.

Furious Javelin is another basic damage-boosting Augment, but it could be so much more if the kit were synergised around it, making it a defense-stripping combo enabler that encourages Javelin DPS instead of EB DPS. It would also be a team-buffing functionality by making enemies all weaker over a massive area.

And then the classic Chromatic Blade which doesn't need much of a change, because Excal's kit is already built to enable this gameplay style. Change it up a little, though, so that instead of just replacing EB's damage with an Element, and adding Status chance, it instead becomes more like Xaku's 1, where it adds the elemental damage to everything he does, but only while using EB. Slash Dash, Javelin and Blind then have their already-existing combos that are built around getting the most out of EB already, but with that additional damage instead of just replacing the damage.

Now this method would be intense.

However you would get a form of 'sub class' to each frame in turn, taking what the Augments are supposed to do, and then concentrating the rest of the kit around that thing. It would definitely require some functions to get situational nerfs, but you could then have the ability-spam style of a SD Excal, the more solo-oriented high damage of a Blind Excal, the team-boosting, radial damage enabling Javelin Excal, or the classic high damage all-rounder of the EB Excal.

You can already concentrate on one of his abilities over another with builds, but nowhere near that degree, and with nowhere near that kind of result.

Players wanting Augments to give them build diversity? Yeah, this would be diversity.

Buuuu~uuut...

It's also the least likely to happen.

The most likely to happen is the first option, because not only do DE know that they use Augments as band-aids on bad abilities, they are happy sitting in the corner they've painted themselves into with Augments as they are.

In the future, all you're going to see happen is DE reworking frames as-and-when they have ideas for them, and that's the only time those frames will have any significant changes to their Augments. Even then, that's likely just going to result in the first option I gave you; where the base ability and the Augment get updated and you're stuck with that Augment as a regular mod slot.

Pessimistic?

Yes.

The most likely thing for DE to do?

Definitely.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Birdframe_Prime

[Waeleto]

Y'know what the augment system really needs ? AN AUGMENT SLOT
Let us have it DE, enough time has passed 

[Ziggums]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As a note: OP's idea shows promise, but is that same problem of getting the extra functions on the Ability for no Mod Points, which are the limitations that DE have imposed for us to work with. Without the changes to the base Abilities, and making the upgrade tree only add minimal functions and a lot of Utility, this method wouldn't fly under DE's current mentality towards Modding overall.

well it goes without saying that if augments go for a different system their mentality towards modding wouldnt even apply in this case. Augments already are basically "fix my warframe" mods without the necesity of reworks-- i personally think its better for the game-- and the player base-- if they deliberately play into it.

I should clarify and emphasize that when i said a system like incarnon weapons i also meant having to pick and choose between traits and/or possible passive boosts. You have a small series of trees that get bigger as the game gets updates, to keep older frames as strong as newer ones with what they offer. You get Options you'd have to pick between like.

For example, what if hydroid's new set of skills were a choice between newer skills and older ones instead? You could pick whichever mix of old and new hydroid you could want. Liked the puddle but enjoy his new corrosive passive and corroding barrage being baseline? you can pick corroding barrage but pick an entirely separate trait for his puddle, like it being bigger.

Some traits could make one skill better and another worse, etc..

Obviously since its a lot of work the trees overall would be quite small and newer frames wouldnt have the tree at all, but it would be an easy way to help older frames scale up better without having to constantly assign new augments to keep them relevant, or without *requiring* full reworks, while also giving players the ability to retain what playstyles they like.

As it is, the augment system is too restrictive, which is the exact oposite of modding's intent, and i think something akin to the incarnon system provides a viable solution, as its been proven to work on weapons.

[quxier]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Here's the break-down of the problem: Either an Augment is powerful enough to warrant a full mod slot because of the buff it gives the ability, or it isn't powerful enough and wouldn't be used even in the manner of a dedicated slot.

That's it. That's the problem right there.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The third point can be valid, where the Ability that gets Augmented is so weak that the Augment is either worth the regular Mod Slot due to making the Ability useful, or the band-aid isn't powerful enough and the Ability is going to get removed with Helminth anyway, but that still basically falls under the original either/or problem.

There is another option. Augment can be good to have but not necessary. The best example from recentish changes are the augment for Grendel/Pulverize (the Catapult) as it shows how augment can start as (near) necessary but ends as "good to have but not necessary". Using middle mouse button it shoots you towards reticle (like bullet jump).

Before Grendel changes, Pulverize weren't very good to control. Accelerating were very slow. Turning (changing direction) were bad as well. Catapult make those 2 things better.

After Grendel change, Pulverize can be controlled much better. It accelerate much faster (slow down as well) and turning (changing direction) is good too. Now you don't need the Catapult - it just makes things slightly better. Most of things Catapult can do, you can do with jumping, wall running or turning around (maybe some more, but I don't remember). Do I have free slot? Yeah, so I can put Catapult. I don't have free slot? I can live without Catapult.

 

ps. Maybe such augments are niche - I've not counted them.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Now, this is just off the top of my head, it may turn out horrible, or it may give you ideas:

  Hide contents

Take a basic frame like Excal for an example; have a dedicated slot and use Surging Dash. This is an Augment built around increasing the damage of Slash Dash and his Blade by increasing the Combo Counter. This is a basic Augment currently and very few people use it when there are more powerful options. So what if, instead, it rebalanced Excal's kit around his 1 to turn him into a Slash Dash maniac that hurtled around the battlefield at enemies, ignoring Defense like Shields and Armour, blinding and using Javelin to mark enemies for combo status, and EB itself losing its higher functionality in favour of putting all that potential power into Slash Dash.

Or Radiant Finish, which allows for Finishers on enemies to have bonus damage, currently, but when done in this new manner Excal can use additional functions rebalanced around Blind to stay in stealth, launch blades from EB that cut Blinded enemies with no travel time (but no damage is dealt to non-blinded enemies), Javelin loses its damage to instead root all enemies it touches to allow for consistent Finishers, and Slash Dash becomes more like Ash's Teleport that specifically travels to Blinded enemies. The increase in targeted damage would be insane, the AoE damage would only affect enemies that have been Blinded, but Excal does still have guns and EB's base blade in order to get rid of Overguard so that he can include them in the massively increased potential of his Augmented kit.

Furious Javelin is another basic damage-boosting Augment, but it could be so much more if the kit were synergised around it, making it a defense-stripping combo enabler that encourages Javelin DPS instead of EB DPS. It would also be a team-buffing functionality by making enemies all weaker over a massive area.

And then the classic Chromatic Blade which doesn't need much of a change, because Excal's kit is already built to enable this gameplay style. Change it up a little, though, so that instead of just replacing EB's damage with an Element, and adding Status chance, it instead becomes more like Xaku's 1, where it adds the elemental damage to everything he does, but only while using EB. Slash Dash, Javelin and Blind then have their already-existing combos that are built around getting the most out of EB already, but with that additional damage instead of just replacing the damage.

Now this method would be intense.

However you would get a form of 'sub class' to each frame in turn, taking what the Augments are supposed to do, and then concentrating the rest of the kit around that thing. It would definitely require some functions to get situational nerfs, but you could then have the ability-spam style of a SD Excal, the more solo-oriented high damage of a Blind Excal, the team-boosting, radial damage enabling Javelin Excal, or the classic high damage all-rounder of the EB Excal.

You can already concentrate on one of his abilities over another with builds, but nowhere near that degree, and with nowhere near that kind of result.

Players wanting Augments to give them build diversity? Yeah, this would be diversity.

Buuuu~uuut...

It's also the least likely to happen.

The most likely to happen is the first option, because not only do DE know that they use Augments as band-aids on bad abilities, they are happy sitting in the corner they've painted themselves into with Augments as they are.

In the future, all you're going to see happen is DE reworking frames as-and-when they have ideas for them, and that's the only time those frames will have any significant changes to their Augments. Even then, that's likely just going to result in the first option I gave you; where the base ability and the Augment get updated and you're stuck with that Augment as a regular mod slot.

Pessimistic?

Yes.

The most likely thing for DE to do?

Definitely.

+1

That sounds amazing (moding kit) but, yeah, not gonna happen. They would make a new, different frame than do this "sub class system". Sub class system sounds like too much work.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Ziggums said:

I should clarify and emphasize that when i said a system like incarnon weapons i also meant having to pick and choose between traits and/or possible passive boosts. You have a small series of trees that get bigger as the game gets updates, to keep older frames as strong as newer ones with what they offer. You get Options you'd have to pick between like.

Yeah, thanks for the clarification. There's a secondary problem with this, on top of the other one, which is this:

DE had skill trees for Ability progression in the Closed Beta, and they didn't keep them. What you'll notice is that some things that were applied to Warframes have come back for Weapons, because they're much easier to implement and balance, since they're just variants on 'more damage from the pew-pew stick' compared to the variability of Warframe powers. So Rivens came back first, which are mods with random roll stats, and now Incarnons with a progression-based tree.

I don't think they're going to bring this back for Warframes, because they deliberately took it away from them to begin with, back when they introduced the modding system itself.

The system you're talking about, with an actual pick-your-perk progression, would have to cost something besides time and resources, it would have to cost something DE wants it to cost; Mod Points.

DE would double-down on the whole 'specialisation breeds limitation' aspect of the modding system and make one of your perk trees cost a mod slot, with a cost that rises with each Perk on the Augment tree you pick.

Wait...

Did I just actually come up with a way that DE could implement this idea?

I think I did...

Let's go over that.

Augment system rework: Augment... hmmmmm... Infusion Mods.

Purchase an Augment mod from the Syndicates for a specific Ability on a Warframe's kit. These mods must be upgraded with Endo to reach full effect, but that does not increase the Mod Point cost.

While slotted on a Warframe, the Augment mod can be levelled up by completing specific challenges related to the Ability, such as killing enemies targeted by the cast,  or while buffed by the cast, or affecting allies a certain number of times.

Challenges unlock changes to the Ability, which can include base stat boosts to that specific ability, such as Range, Duration or Strength. The other options can include conditional effects, such as reduced casting cost for consecutive casts, or refunding energy for affecting enough enemies. All Augment mods have a final tier of unlock that can drastically change what the base ability does, from adding completely new functions through to trading off one function in favour of another powerful function.

The more Perks selected on the tree, the greater the mod cost, up to a universal maximum.

Now...

I think that satisfies the way that DE would be looking at things, but also grant each player a specific set of upgrades to their individual Abilities that would actually give more specialised play styles in a similar way to the other suggestion I had...

Hmmm...

Possibilities.

One last thing:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

There is another option. Augment can be good to have but not necessary.

That would fall under the 'powerful enough to take up a mod slot' category. It was never about whether the Augment was essential, a band-aid, or just a straight buff, it's about whether the change is worth the slot.

[quxier]

51 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

There is another option. Augment can be good to have but not necessary.

That would fall under the 'powerful enough to take up a mod slot' category. It was never about whether the Augment was essential, a band-aid, or just a straight buff, it's about whether the change is worth the slot.

IMHO it doesn't fit into those 2 categories. I think we need more "categories". You may think differently.

[CrownOfShadows]

I'll continue to suggest just making all augments exilus. It doesn't disrupt build diversity or power (except in a few cases), provides competition for PSF, and DE might actually do it as it's a very low-hanging fruit.

[Venefik]

 I doubt augment slot will happen as much as I'd personally like to see it. But at the very least DE should continue to review (and for some of these, re-review) augments so that they are (ideally) always worth the mod slot that they take.

 Losing a mod slot for Mind Freak to give my mind controlled unit a measly 500% extra damage when I can already stack over 20k% is not very helpful. If Mind Freak would instead give the mind controlled unit cc immunity and a speed multiplier, it would actually be a pretty good upgrade for those of us who like to play around with minions.

[Zaghyr]

Over time I've leaned pretty heavily away from wanting augment mod slots, simply because I think augments shouldn't be mods in the first place. Like OP I also think an Incarnon system for frame augments would be a good system for this, but it would be a large undertaking to do and would probably require moderate rebalancing elsewhere in the arsenal. The other idea that I'm a large fan of is 3mptylord's idea for combining archon shards and augments into a new shard type. The 3rd option that I think could work, although players would jump the gun with pushback, is frame Riven mods where the bonus stats are fairly low but can roll augment-lite effects, things that aren't impactful/strong enough to be their own mod, but unique/interesting enough that you could still make unique builds. As an example "While Turbulence is active, gain +2 Ranks to Carnis Set Bonus" or "25% chance to extend Tornado duration by 1 second when picking up an energy orb". Augments right now are a huge batch of wasted potential that could be reworked into something really cool and allow for truly unique builds to flourish.