Why does the ancient disruptor energy draining attacks go through status immunity, invulnerability and everything else.

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

How ‘bout you stop getting hit by Disruptors

edit: Wait, why am I talking to you?

Maybe you should try reading through the thread a bit, since that's a point that's already been countered.

[(NSW)Greybones]

26 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Maybe you should try reading through the thread a bit, since that's a point that's already been countered.

Oh I’ve read through the thread. Somehow for me, Disruptors aren’t as scary as people make them out to be. That means including while playing Valkyr and dipping into Hysteria.

If an adjustment is made to make Disruptors easier for you to deal with, when they’re already fine for me, I’m gonna be pretty pissed that they caved to you and took some of the threat away. I like having to be on my toes

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 41 minutos, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

Oh I’ve read through the thread. Somehow for me, Disruptors aren’t as scary as people make them out to be. That means including while playing Valkyr and dipping into Hysteria.

If an adjustment is made to make Disruptors easier for you to deal with, when they’re already fine for me, I’m gonna be pretty pissed that they caved to you and took some of the threat away. I like having to be on my toes

Do you know why they redesigned the eximus? because they were so indistinguishable and their attacks were difficult to evade.
Aside from the fact that they barely stand out from the crowd and drain the entire energy bar, they also drain energy even if you block their attack or that of any infected that is being benefited by their aura and ignore the use of arcane nullifier, not all warframes are tanks to use the hunter's adrenaline and many need their skills to survive, in addition, the infested already have eximus that drain energy.

Edited November 18, 2023 by --Leyenda-yight6

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Do you know why they redesigned the eximus? because they were so indistinguishable and their attacks were difficult to evade.
Aside from the fact that they barely stand out from the crowd and drain the entire energy bar, they also drain energy even if you block their attack or that of any infected that is being benefited by their aura and ignore the use of arcane nullifier, not all warframes are tanks to use the hunter's adrenaline and many need their skills to survive, in addition, the infested already have eximus that drain energy.

The eximus redesign was good. An energy drain aura is too unfair without some sort of way for the player to identify or counter it, and it went through walls with zero indication of its effects on the player even while they were on the move and doing the right things that would normally be involved in avoiding enemies and their effects

The Disruptor is not nearly on the same level, and if you can’t make it through the standard game with some temporary energy outages that may happen if someone’s careless or hits a bit of bad luck, then something needs to be addressed in the player’s playing

Edited November 18, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 51 minutos, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

The eximus redesign was good. An energy drain aura is too unfair without some sort of way for the player to identify or counter it, and it went through walls with zero indication of its effects on the player even while they were on the move and doing the right things that would normally be involved in avoiding enemies and their effects

The Disruptor is not nearly on the same level, and if you can’t make it through the standard game with some temporary energy outages that may happen if someone’s careless or hits a bit of bad luck, then something needs to he addressed in the player’s playing

Temporary power outages? There are more disruptors than eximus in the infested missions and having to be attentive to multiple almost invisible hooks that come from indistinguishable enemies and dodge all the attacks of the other enemies benefited by the aura which I have to dodge as if this were a Ghostrunner "BECAUSE "I CAN'T EVEN BLOCK THEM" is an absurd request, it's not a question of bad luck or skill, congratulations on having ultra-fast reflexes (assuming you're not a player who uses a tank warframe with hunter's adrenaline, lavas or inaros) whether you want to admit it or not , the disruptor is unbalanced and needs to be checked.

I just did some tests in the drill and I noticed that the disruptors have some immunity to CC abilities, I tried it with discharge de volt which didn't even hurt them, the zephyr tornadoes and molecular impregnation (the latter affected some but its duration was reduced to a few seconds) but other abilities affect them normally (such as the hydroid tentacles), I also tried it with rhino stomp and it just knocks them down.

Edited November 18, 2023 by --Leyenda-yight6

[Tiltskillet]

20 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Temporary power outages? There are more disruptors than eximus in the infested missions

Kind of true in SP because of the increased spawn density.  IIRC, Greybones mostly plays non-SP, and it is much, much easier to treat them tactically there.

38 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I just did some tests in the drill and I noticed that the disruptors have some immunity to CC abilities, I tried it with discharge de volt which didn't even hurt them, the zephyr tornadoes and molecular impregnation (the latter affected some but its duration was reduced to a few seconds) but other abilities affect them normally (such as the hydroid tentacles)

Their aura reduces the durations of a lot of debuffs and CCs, and the effects stack.  Discharge has that funky delay on pulse damage, and I imagine the aura is reducing Discharge's duration below that threshold. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

23 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Kind of true in SP because of the increased spawn density.  IIRC, Greybones mostly plays non-SP, and it is much, much easier to treat them tactically there.

You did indeed recall correctly, and it’s because the game has 1-player spawnrates for 1 player outside of SP, the default spawnrate for 1 player that the game is balanced around and that SP then pushes it out of whack, that I keep distinguishing Standard from Steel Path. If the game were actually designed around Steel Path spawnrates, I would be one of the ones to speak up on behalf of really shifting enemies like Disruptors, but the game’s not, SP is the unbalanced outlier where DE just dialled up everything up to 11 and then told us to go nuts and to not expect balanced gameplay (despite players seeking validation trying to treat it like the balance measuring stick)

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Temporary power outages? There are more disruptors than eximus in the infested missions and having to be attentive to multiple almost invisible hooks that come from indistinguishable enemies and dodge all the attacks of the other enemies benefited by the aura which I have to dodge as if this were a Ghostrunner "BECAUSE "I CAN'T EVEN BLOCK THEM" is an absurd request, it's not a question of bad luck or skill, congratulations on having ultra-fast reflexes (assuming you're not a player who uses a tank warframe with hunter's adrenaline, lavas or inaros) whether you want to admit it or not , the disruptor is unbalanced and needs to be checked.

I just did some tests in the drill and I noticed that the disruptors have some immunity to CC abilities, I tried it with discharge de volt which didn't even hurt them, the zephyr tornadoes and molecular impregnation (the latter affected some but its duration was reduced to a few seconds) but other abilities affect them normally (such as the hydroid tentacles), I also tried it with rhino stomp and it just knocks them down.

It’s not just a matter of reflexes, there’s more to it like a matter of positioning as well; if you know the enemies are coming from a certain direction and you’re in a certain location related to that, you know where they’re going to come from and can funnel them or lead them around or otherwise control their positioning so you’re not blindsided and being shot from all directions at once. In some ways and sort of counter-intuitively, instantly killing everything can actually become a detriment at times since it gives enemies a chance to spawn right behind the player and surprise them, versus the player knowing where the enemies are and where to move accordingly.

I played around in the Simulacrum to get a sense of windows to dodge the hooks, but in an actual mission there’s things like an element of “If I see them, expect that the hook is coming and pre-emptively break lines of sight or roll or otherwise dodge”. Reflexes make for only part of the picture, and then SP goes and makes it a lot more harder to work off of reflexes alone because of how it’s designed (which isn’t a problem either because then you just build the problem away like the mode wants you to).

Distuptors are not the boogeyman they’re made out to be, unless players are talking SP, in which case they should know what they’re in for

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You did indeed recall correctly, and it’s because the game has 1-player spawnrates for 1 player outside of SP, the default spawnrate for 1 player that the game is balanced around and that SP then pushes it out of whack, that I keep distinguishing Standard from Steel Path. If the game were actually designed around Steel Path spawnrates, I would be one of the ones to speak up on behalf of really shifting enemies like Disruptors, but the game’s not, SP is the unbalanced outlier where DE just dialled up everything up to 11 and then told us to go nuts and to not expect balanced gameplay (despite players seeking validation trying to treat it like the balance measuring stick)

Gotcha.

In terms of SP,  I do find Disruptors more restrictive than any other single normal unit.  Much moreso than Nullifiers in base SP, although they also get really bad as time goes up in endless SP.

I'm not sure what I'd propose as a solution that wouldn't affect non-SP, probably negatively in the view of somebody like you.  Maybe a cap on the number of Disruptors that can spawn at one time in one area.  And/or a change in how the aura's melee damage energy drain cap is calculated, so that it doesn't scale upwards so steeply.   I don't really have a problem with it piercing invulns and immunities.  I'd probably want it to be more consistent about doing so, which would make a lot of people upset, no doubt.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 hora, Tiltskillet dijo:

I'm not sure what I'd propose as a solution that wouldn't affect non-SP, probably negatively in the view of somebody like you.  Maybe a cap on the number of Disruptors that can spawn at one time in one area.  And/or a change in how the aura's melee damage energy drain cap is calculated, so that it doesn't scale upwards so steeply.   I don't really have a problem with it piercing invulns and immunities.  I'd probably want it to be more consistent about doing so, which would make a lot of people upset, no doubt.

The changes I want to see are to give it a fixed value or sharply reduce the scaling of the drain, to allow it to be blocked and overridden with an arcane nullifier, and to regulate it like the eximus.

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm not sure what I'd propose as a solution that wouldn't affect non-SP, probably negatively in the view of somebody like you.  Maybe a cap on the number of Disruptors that can spawn at one time in one area.  And/or a change in how the aura's melee damage energy drain cap is calculated, so that it doesn't scale upwards so steeply.   I don't really have a problem with it piercing invulns and immunities.  I'd probably want it to be more consistent about doing so, which would make a lot of people upset, no doubt.

In terms of the Ancient Hook attack, I think it just needs a longer and much more visible telegraph.  Generally speaking, there should be a balance between how telegraphed an attack is and how punishing an attack is when it hits you.  That's why in most games tiny swift strikes generally deal less damage, while heavy units that do an elaborate wind-up with their great hammers will take a meaty chunk of your health and also knock you down.  If Ancients did something like flailing both arms above their head for 2-3 seconds before sending out the hook, I think that would balance the telegraph with the current punishment.

And honestly, that would solve another problem, too.  It took around 5 years of playing Warframe for me to finally understand that the Ancient hook was the thing that was draining my energy, because the attack is so quick and understated that it doesn't stand out as being meaningful when you're surrounded by a hoard of enemies.  A good telegraph would make such an attack stand out, and thus make it more intuitive for players to make the connection between cause and effect.

And finally, it's just fun.  Nobody likes being sucker-punched.  But if you show me an attack that I can dodge and give me adequate time to notice it and react to it, that's gameplay baybee!  That's giving me a stimulus and allowing me the chance to respond, and that's something that an action game like Warframe could arguably use more of.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 12 horas, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

I played around in the Simulacrum to get a sense of windows to dodge the hooks, but in an actual mission there’s things like an element of “If I see them, expect that the hook is coming and pre-emptively break lines of sight or roll or otherwise dodge”. Reflexes make for only part of the picture, and then SP goes and makes it a lot more harder to work off of reflexes alone because of how it’s designed (which isn’t a problem either because then you just build the problem away like the mode wants you to).

It's not just the hooks, as I said it also applies to all enemies that are close to the disruptors, and since there is no regulation of how many there can be, almost all infested enemies will be able to drain energy and I can't control them because the disruptor and the nearby enemies They are immune to CC.

[(NSW)Greybones]

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Gotcha.

In terms of SP,  I do find Disruptors more restrictive than any other single normal unit.  Much moreso than Nullifiers in base SP, although they also get really bad as time goes up in endless SP.

I'm not sure what I'd propose as a solution that wouldn't affect non-SP, probably negatively in the view of somebody like you.  Maybe a cap on the number of Disruptors that can spawn at one time in one area.  And/or a change in how the aura's melee damage energy drain cap is calculated, so that it doesn't scale upwards so steeply.   I don't really have a problem with it piercing invulns and immunities.  I'd probably want it to be more consistent about doing so, which would make a lot of people upset, no doubt.

Yeah…

Due to how balancing tends to be done through fundamental changes to core elements of the game, those changes get amplified and unbalanced when something like Steel Path crank everything up through some modifiers slapped on to give players more and tougher enemies to test their min-maxed builds against (even Archons don’t get the modifiers that SP does), and it does its job well as long as someone’s not thinking that they’re building for balanced gameplay (which the standard game is the place for considerations like that).

But then to change fundamental systems like spawnrates for the sake of unbalanced Steel Path means that in the part of the game with 1-player spawns for 1 player and the most variety of build options, those spawns would need to be designed as if they’re going to become 4-player spawns for 1 player, which potentially means things like simply fewer enemies and lesser variety for the standard game, and then when you do get 4 players together, they’re now dealing with spawnrates that are designed for one player. It makes no sense to chase balancing for Steel Path when all the balance consideration has already been made for the standard game with its larger variety of options and ways to build and play and SP is designed to be a warped version of it

Personally I’d prefer more consistency in what Disruptors affect as well, regardless of whether it makes things harder. That’s something that can be changed that can more-safely span SP and the standard game. I have wondered as well what adjusting some of the existing modifiers might do; maybe something like halving the spawn modifier would have a subtle-yet-profound impact on the SP experience. It would mean fewer enemies which would piss people off when they’re looking for confetti-explosions of enemies using their powerful builds, but it would also mean fewer Disruptors

Edited November 19, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

But then to change fundamental systems like spawnrates for the sake of unbalanced Steel Path means that in the part of the game with 1-player spawns for 1 player and the most variety of build options, those spawns would need to be designed as if they’re going to become 4-player spawns for 1 player, which potentially means things like simply fewer enemies and lesser variety for the standard game, and then when you do get 4 players together, they’re now dealing with spawnrates that are designed for one player. It makes no sense to chase balancing for Steel Path when all the balance consideration has already been made for the standard game with its larger variety of options and ways to build and play and SP is designed to be a warped version of it

Well I think there are probably a few ways to adjust it so that it'd be a little more forgiving in SP without affecting things outside SP significantly.   If the spawn rate on Disruptors were throttled or capped, I'm not sure somebody like you who treats them as high priority targets would notice a difference because your spawn rate is slow to begin with.  Maybe I'm wrong about that one, but having the melee energy drain aura not scale far beyond the energy capacity of frames at high levels would be something only people playing high level content would notice.  I'm sure there are better solutions that a game designer could come up with that I won't.

I don't buy into the "Because it's SP, might as well not try to balance it" idea, not completely.  There's a limit on how much effort should be put into it, but a limit isn't a prohibition.

6 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

In terms of the Ancient Hook attack, I think it just needs a longer and much more visible telegraph.  Generally speaking, there should be a balance between how telegraphed an attack is and how punishing an attack is when it hits you.  That's why in most games tiny swift strikes generally deal less damage, while heavy units that do an elaborate wind-up with their great hammers will take a meaty chunk of your health and also knock you down.  If Ancients did something like flailing both arms above their head for 2-3 seconds before sending out the hook, I think that would balance the telegraph with the current punishment.

Maybe.  I think the wind up is generally pretty good. I feel like when I get nailed, it's either because I've gotten careless, or that generally just that there are so many enemies in SP, often coming from multiple directions that it's easy to miss the telegraphs.  And if I'm not using ranged AoE, it's often the fodder under the influence of the aura that are getting me, rather than the Disruptors themeselves.

One thing I will say about the hook specifically though:  DE put in additional counters to hook attacks last year.  It would be nice if the energy drain (and the magnetic proc) was delayed a bit, so that if we do counter the attack, it doesn't take effect, or has less impact.  That doesn't address the larger issues, but it's a small adjustment that just feels fair.  To me anyway.

[(PSN)rexis12]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

That's giving me a stimulus and allowing me the chance to respond, and that's something that an action game like Warframe could arguably use more of

Ironically enough, when the pull was changed to have actual gameplay stimulus, we had a bunch of people whining that it's "no longer a threat" and at that point I realise that these people would have an aneurysm playing any other game that has basic mechanics like the one they added for the Rope Pull.

Seriously, being able to react to a guarantee knock down and rewarding you for gameplay by rolling or hitting or breaking the rope is 'removing the threat'. I guess gameplay for them is just slotting in Prime Sure Footed.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 2 horas, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

Personally I’d prefer more consistency in what Disruptors affect as well, regardless of whether it makes things harder. That’s something that can be changed that can more-safely span SP and the standard game. I have wondered as well what adjusting some of the existing modifiers might do; maybe something like halving the spawn modifier would have a subtle-yet-profound impact on the SP experience. It would mean fewer enemies which would piss people off when they’re looking for confetti-explosions of enemies using their powerful builds, but it would also mean fewer Disruptors

I don't understand why anyone would mind reducing the spawning of Disruptors, the number of enemies can still be the same, it's just that with fewer Disruptors, other enemies would spawn in their place.

[(NSW)Greybones]

20 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Well I think there are probably a few ways to adjust it so that it'd be a little more forgiving in SP without affecting things outside SP significantly.   If the spawn rate on Disruptors were throttled or capped, I'm not sure somebody like you who treats them as high priority targets would notice a difference because your spawn rate is slow to begin with.  Maybe I'm wrong about that one, but having the melee energy drain aura not scale far beyond the energy capacity of frames at high levels would be something only people playing high level content would notice.  I'm sure there are better solutions that a game designer could come up with that I won't.

I don't buy into the "Because it's SP, might as well not try to balance it" idea, not completely.  There's a limit on how much effort should be put into it, but a limit isn't a prohibition.

Perhaps some SP-specific adjustments could be made, but I don’t see the point in the effort when it’s never going to be balanced. It’s the build-breaker mode, if you can’t handle it, you need to refine your build first and foremost since playing is not going to be balanced for and will help only so much. You want a more-balanced game, you build for it in the standard game that’s designed for more build options than whatever SP requires.

Plus the spawnrates in the standard game are fine. Don’t touch them for the sake of players jumping into SP who end up in over their head because someone told them “Oh, it’s NeW gAmE+ and you need to rush to it”. SP’s reputation for being “The next step in progression” is vastly overrated

edit: Maybe if the spawnrate were throttled only in SP, I guess? Because 4-players in the standard game should not be subject to a throttle because of SP

19 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I don't understand why anyone would mind reducing the spawning of Disruptors, the number of enemies can still be the same, it's just that with fewer Disruptors, other enemies would spawn in their place.

Leave the Disruptors spawnrates alone. They’re sufficiently threatening while not being overwhelming, and what other enemies would I want to replace them anyways? You’re in I’m assuming SP (after all the talk about enemy density) and, Surprise, it’s bonkers unbalanced like it says it’s going to be. If it’s not to your liking, why are you in it?

Edited November 19, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Hexerin]

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

if you can’t handle it

Literally nobody is saying that. Try reading before replying.

[(NSW)Greybones]

9 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Literally nobody is saying that. Try reading before replying.

Oh? Maybe you’d like to clarify what I missed

I’m reading a lot of calls to change Disruptors, which sounds to me like their current incarnation is too much. While I don’t think they’re necessarily wrong in Steel Path, this is Steel Path we’ve apparently been talking about

Edited November 19, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Tiltskillet]

17 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Perhaps some SP-specific adjustments could be made, but I don’t see the point in the effort when it’s never going to be balanced.

You're an all or nothing kind of fellow, I see.  At least when talking about content you don't want to play anyway.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You're an all or nothing kind of fellow, I see.  At least when talking about content you don't want to play anyway.

 

Not sure what else to be regarding Steel Path. It was introduced as a way for all-or-nothing players who were dressed up in power with nowhere to go to shortcut their way to higher-level enemies so that they could face potential death that they’d then build away through further refinement of their builds and loadouts, then DE threw some modifiers in for good measure and apparently it’s been successful enough.

It’s not going to be a balanced gamemode so long as DE are designing the game for a much broader range of options; it’s the catch-all that you jump into when you’ve got a build that wrecks the standard game and you want to try it on something else. A player’s already eschewed the balanced part of the game through builds specifically designed to break it while they figure out optimal ways to arrange damage and invincibility, so it seems fitting that they find themselves in something that breaks back

edit: Hey wait, I play SP. You said I mostly play standard, which is true, but I also dip into SP. There’s reasons why I don’t live in SP though

Edited November 19, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 hora, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

Leave the Disruptors spawnrates alone. They’re sufficiently threatening while not being overwhelming, and what other enemies would I want to replace them anyways? You’re in I’m assuming SP (after all the talk about enemy density) and, Surprise, it’s bonkers unbalanced like it says it’s going to be. If it’s not to your liking, why are you in it?

Do you want to highlight where I said that Steel Path is not to my liking? I play Steel Path because there you can better farm resources, steel essences and with the latest updates to citrine, voruna and dagath, you can better farm their unique resources. Everything I've discussed is about the disruptor and its infinite scale energy drain, no other enemy has a similar infinite scale. Also, if you only play in normal mode, how does this affect you? I'm not asking for the disruptor to disappear or be nerfed to the ground, just to regulate its drainage at high levels and make it more fair like the eximus.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Do you want to highlight where I said that Steel Path is not to my liking? I play Steel Path because there you can better farm resources, steel essences and with the latest updates to citrine, voruna and dagath, you can better farm their unique resources. Everything I've discussed is about the disruptor and its infinite scale energy drain, no other enemy has a similar infinite scale. Also, if you only play in normal mode, how does this affect you? I'm not asking for the disruptor to disappear or be nerfed to the ground, just to regulate its drainage at high levels and make it more fair like the eximus.

You were also talking about the spawnrates. Personally I think the infinitely-scaling energy drain is fine too, though; if there’s going to be better farm rates, I think it should be scarier.

If there was a SP-centric change though that chases balanced gameplay for the sake of players who are looking for some semblance of balance in the mode whose main purpose is trying to kill your build in whatever way it can, I’m less inclined to shoot the idea down. I think it’s silly, but if SP only is made easier, so be it

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Not sure what else to be regarding Steel Path. It was introduced as a way for all-or-nothing players who were dressed up in power with nowhere to go to shortcut their way to higher-level enemies so that they could face potential death that they’d then build away through further refinement of their builds and loadouts, then DE threw some modifiers in for good measure and apparently it’s been successful enough.

Originally it was created with those intentions, but I think its become closer and closer to just a difficulty setting.  Basically the result of power creep, special SP rewards, and lack of other stuff to do.

In any case, I think it's worth some effort to balance, even if it will never be balanced.  Some things are too punishing, some things are too easy.  A lot of things are strangely inconsistent.  Some adjustments here and there could make the game mode more fun.

I'd say the same thing about WF as  a whole, including regular Star Chart.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 4 minutos, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

You were also talking about the spawnrates. Personally I think the infinitely-scaling energy drain is fine too, though; if there’s going to be better farm rates, I think it should be scarier.

If there was a SP-centric change though that chases balanced gameplay for the sake of players who are looking for some semblance of balance in the mode whose main purpose is trying to kill your build in whatever way it can, I’m less inclined to shoot the idea down. I think it’s silly, but if SP only is made easier, so be it

It is not something that gives difficulty, it is simply unfair, if an eximus leech takes away your energy you had the time and the signals to avoid its effect, if a trahx takes away your energy you had time to see its attacks, dodge them, hide or even jump high to not let the beam hit you, and with many enemies it is like that, they stand out from the crowd, they make auditory and visual signals before using their abilities and their attacks can be clearly seen and their effects do not scale infinitely, the disruptor does not has none of that.

[(NSW)Greybones]

29 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Originally it was created with those intentions, but I think its become closer and closer to just a difficulty setting.  Basically the result of power creep, special SP rewards, and lack of other stuff to do.

In any case, I think it's worth some effort to balance, even if it will never be balanced.  Some things are too punishing, some things are too easy.  A lot of things are strangely inconsistent.  Some adjustments here and there could make the game mode more fun.

I'd say the same thing about WF as  a whole, including regular Star Chart.

The game has ever been designed from the ground up with the modless baseline in mind and the various ways we can combine mods for builds and builds for loadouts. Just because some players found even more ways to arrange damage and invincibility, never once considering whether they’re building for the content but expecting the content to be designed around them, and DE introduced Arcanes does not make SP a mere difficulty setting precisely because of the modifiers it still has to this day. Modifiers that, like I said, even Archons don’t have, and for good reason. By mere dint of starting so high SP will not be the place for every build option, nevermind the modifiers that then push it even further.

The standard game has its balance, but most players do something as simple as build for higher-level content and then take it lower. And then do that almost the entirety of their playtime, because the game doesn’t stop them, so all they know is perpetually-offset gameplay. If they were to experience a semblance of how it’s balanced, it’d be when they’re forced into it by dint of not having the option to avoid it or they accidentally jump into something more-fitting of their build. But then they face death, figure out how to build it away, and become built for higher-level content while remaining in lower-level content. That would be a massive element of inconsistency because now the game has completely lost its semblance of balance while someone builds it away

All those times when someone slaps on damage and survival mods first and foremost at cost to anything else? Those mods are meant to either push players into higher-level content through stat boosts or damage/survival/ability augmentation or can be used to overpower them for the content they’re doing with redundant amounts of damage and survival, and players gravitate towards the latter because it makes for that good and stable and safe grind for things that mostly never get used where they can make one-size-fits-all builds and loadouts, despite the fact that they don’t need to be so scared of death and mission failure and we don’t need to sit in Steel Path just to play the game and get rewards.

There’s balance in the standard game, most players just eschew it until they hit unbalanced SP which throws the rulebook out the window. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones