Decision on last mod for Boltor Prime Incarnon build

[Eda.Mone]

Hi, I just can't really seem to decide.
I've been testing and everything honestly seems really close to me.

-- I've been going through bladed rounds, - point strike, - hammershot.

Keep in mind the last 3 selections for the Incarnon, which are

18% status C
10% status and crit chance
14% Crit C.

I'm not the best at when it comes to the theoretical / math in this game and just wondering if anyone can help out here.

(yes, I would use overframe for ease but it doesnt support incarnon afaik)

The post on the right is the incarnon without any of those 3 mods activated , WITH the 18% status choice

The one right below is with BOTH crit and status chance 10%.  (The one with just crit doesnt seem worthwhile.)

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ryker
Forgot to incude stats.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Max out Crit Chance

Status doesn't really matter all that much

 

your typical meta build is going to be: Crits, Viral, and Slash (via Hunter Munitions)

since the Slash is linked to Crits, you prioritize that, and since you only really need 1 Viral proc to get things rolling Status Chance isn't that important.

Further, this thing is a High Rof shotgun rifle. -even with a low SC per shot, you're doing A Lot of shots to make up for it.

 

take the +14 Crit Evolution

[Eda.Mone]

41 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Max out Crit Chance

Status doesn't really matter all that much

 

your typical meta build is going to be: Crits, Viral, and Slash (via Hunter Munitions)

since the Slash is linked to Crits, you prioritize that, and since you only really need 1 Viral proc to get things rolling Status Chance isn't that important.

Further, this thing is a High Rof shotgun rifle. -even with a low SC per shot, you're doing A Lot of shots to make up for it.

 

take the +14 Crit Evolution

Well, It would be better for me to just go corro / toxin I would feel.
The main reason would be viral isnt really giving me the % dmg increase (on its own viral procs) unless I'm stripping their armor.

So I'd be better off just running a vulp and going corro, I would think. (vs grineer) -- It's this really weird situation at the moment with how status works.
But I get what you're saying. I'll try that out.
Also, keep in mind here. I'm 99% sure I'm hitting 100% crit with the 10% of each.

To further press, this build is awful with hunters munition unless you are going much higher- but at that point I would just run a slash melee with a primer and call it good there.
 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ryker

[Tiltskillet]

If you're willing to entertain using Crit Delay, the stat/crit evo will get you to 102% CC in Incarnon.   The pure crit evo will get it to 116%, which is nice...but 100 is a more important threshold.  Point Strike gets the balanced evo to 65, and the crit evo to 95.

Personally I wouldn't consider the pure status evo for this weapon on a build modded for Corrosive.  (Or Viral.) It will get targets to 10 stacks really fast with any of the evolutions. 

[Eda.Mone]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

If you're willing to entertain using Crit Delay, the stat/crit evo will get you to 102% CC in Incarnon.   The pure crit evo will get it to 116%, which is nice...but 100 is a more important threshold.  Point Strike gets the balanced evo to 65, and the crit evo to 95.

Personally I wouldn't consider the pure status evo for this weapon on a build modded for Corrosive.  (Or Viral.) It will get targets to 10 stacks really fast with any of the evolutions. 

Is this in combination with galva scope? or well, I assume an attempt to push for more orange / red crits.

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Ryker said:

Is this in combination with galva scope? or well, I assume an attempt to push for more orange / red crits.

No, just with one crit chance mod.  Scope by itself it can get even the pure status build just over 100% crit while aiming...at max stacks.  Which is a lot to ask, given the way its stacks decay.

Because of its stack decay, personally I'm not fond of Galvanized Scope outside of a few weapons, mostly snipers, or some builds where I can keep enemies unalerted or immobile.  If you're thinking of using it here, I'll just point out that in Incarnon mode the Boltor P's accuracy gets pretty bad.  I'm not saying it's not viable for the mod,  but it's something to keep in mind.

[Eda.Mone]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

No, just with one crit chance mod.  Scope by itself it can get even the pure status build just over 100% crit while aiming...at max stacks.  Which is a lot to ask, given the way its stacks decay.

Because of its stack decay, personally I'm not fond of Galvanized Scope outside of a few weapons, mostly snipers, or some builds where I can keep enemies unalerted or immobile.  If you're thinking of using it here, I'll just point out that in Incarnon mode the Boltor P's accuracy gets pretty bad.  I'm not saying it's not viable for the mod,  but it's something to keep in mind.

That's actually something to consider.
It does lower the fire-rate a tad, but at the same time it gives a huge base crit chance boost.

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, Ryker said:

That's actually something to consider.
It does lower the fire-rate a tad, but at the same time it gives a huge base crit chance boost.

Crit Delay?  Yes.  The RoF is minor compared to the CC gain over Point Strike, generally speaking.  On Boltor P, with no other RoF bonuses, it lowers Incarnon's from 11.33 to 9.07.  Since that's before multishot, the Boltor can still put out a high volume of lead in a short amount of time. 

You might even find that you get better efficiency out of it in Incarnon mode, especially if you have other RoF mods or buffs.  I have a RoF riven for it, and it gets pretty silly how fast I can burn Incarnon mode down to nothing, especially if I'm playing Harrow.

[Eda.Mone]

11 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Crit Delay?  Yes.  The RoF is minor compared to the CC gain over Point Strike, generally speaking.  On Boltor P, with no other RoF bonuses, it lowers Incarnon's from 11.33 to 9.07.  Since that's before multishot, the Boltor can still put out a high volume of lead in a short amount of time. 

You might even find that you get better efficiency out of it in Incarnon mode, especially if you have other RoF mods or buffs.  I have a RoF riven for it, and it gets pretty silly how fast I can burn Incarnon mode down to nothing, especially if I'm playing Harrow.

Yeah, I'll mess with it more when I'm not MR grinding. Thank ya.

[VibingCat]

Use these for an endgame build:

G. Chamber

G. Aptitude

P. Shred (Vile Acceleration if you don't have it)

P. Cryo Rounds

Malignant Force

Hunter Munitions

Critical Delay

Vital Sense

Terminal Velocity

Primary Dexterity 

I'm not including your riven because it makes corrosive that is fairly worse than viral in almost every scenario. I highly recommend you to reroll your riven, try to get anything that's a direct improvement of any of the mods listed above.

Note that Galvanized Scope is trash because, unlike the other galvanized mods, its stacks have independent timers, so you hardly ever receive the maxed buff and when you do you probably don't need it.

[0_The_F00l]

I would recommend a couple of changes to your loadout.

Firstly , replace vile acceleration with primed shred (if you have it) and pointstrike with critical delay.

This will boost your crit capability and having more punchthough means hitting more enemies that usually tend to come to you in a single file that's a ln acceptable sacrifice for slightly lower fire rate.

You don't NEED viral , and I forget the priority of combined elements in rivens , but do check if having a cold mod let's you get viral and electric. That's not a bad combo.

Galvanized scope is not recommended as it will be difficult to maintain headshot kills required (enemies tend to die of procs more often) so you can replace that with the cold mod mentioned above or heat.

Hunter munitions will net you greater output than Bane as well.

 

[Eda.Mone]

On 2023-11-20 at 7:40 PM, VibingCat said:

Use these for an endgame build:

G. Chamber

G. Aptitude

P. Shred (Vile Acceleration if you don't have it)

P. Cryo Rounds

Malignant Force

Hunter Munitions

Critical Delay

Vital Sense

Terminal Velocity

Primary Dexterity 

I'm not including your riven because it makes corrosive that is fairly worse than viral in almost every scenario. I highly recommend you to reroll your riven, try to get anything that's a direct improvement of any of the mods listed above.

Note that Galvanized Scope is trash because, unlike the other galvanized mods, its stacks have independent timers, so you hardly ever receive the maxed buff and when you do you probably don't need it.

The reason I am not running viral is I will be getting it from elsewhere, so it would be better to run corrosive for the 75% dmg against the armor, while getting the viral benefit from Vulpaya, etc.

[Eda.Mone]

On 2023-11-21 at 2:14 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I would recommend a couple of changes to your loadout.

Firstly , replace vile acceleration with primed shred (if you have it) and pointstrike with critical delay.

This will boost your crit capability and having more punchthough means hitting more enemies that usually tend to come to you in a single file that's a ln acceptable sacrifice for slightly lower fire rate.

You don't NEED viral , and I forget the priority of combined elements in rivens , but do check if having a cold mod let's you get viral and electric. That's not a bad combo.

Galvanized scope is not recommended as it will be difficult to maintain headshot kills required (enemies tend to die of procs more often) so you can replace that with the cold mod mentioned above or heat.

Hunter munitions will net you greater output than Bane as well.

 

So, its bottom to top for riven.

As I have already explained, I am getting viral from elsewhere- so there is really no need for me to run it on the boltor as well. 

The punchthrough. .I'm not entirely sure if that's needed.
While boltor doesn't have innate Pthrough, it does have the knockback effect on death.
I could still run it and see how it goes, but I do feel the extra firerate has been nice.
But I will give it a try.

[VibingCat]

4 hours ago, Ryker said:

The reason I am not running viral is I will be getting it from elsewhere, so it would be better to run corrosive for the 75% dmg against the armor, while getting the viral benefit from Vulpaya, etc.

Vulpaphylas are absolutely overrated when it comes to spreading viral status, which they don't do reliably at all. If you have Nourish it makes more sense, in that case you should also consider base toxin to make your rifle effective against high level corrupted. Also note that most grineer have alloy armour, not ferrite, making radiation more effective rather than corrosive, and anyway viral is the only element that synergises with hunter munitions.

[Eda.Mone]

On 2023-11-22 at 5:02 PM, VibingCat said:

Vulpaphylas are absolutely overrated when it comes to spreading viral status, which they don't do reliably at all. If you have Nourish it makes more sense, in that case you should also consider base toxin to make your rifle effective against high level corrupted. Also note that most grineer have alloy armour, not ferrite, making radiation more effective rather than corrosive, and anyway viral is the only element that synergises with hunter munitions.

Hunters munition doesn't feel viable on this until you start to get into the 500+ , honestly.
Atleast that was my experience with it.

[VibingCat]

25 minutes ago, Ryker said:

Hunters munition doesn't feel viable on this until you start to get into the 500+ , honestly.
Atleast that was my experience with it.

Use Kompressa with Secondary Encumber, Roar, aim at enemies' heads, that will do level cap damage.

[VibingCat]

On 2023-11-21 at 9:14 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Hunter munitions will net you greater output than Bane as well.

That doesn't make sense, the efficacy of Hunter Munitions depends on the target's armour, so it may be useless, fine, or absolutely essential. Having a primed faction mod at the same time is a great idea, besides.

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, VibingCat said:

That doesn't make sense, the efficacy of Hunter Munitions depends on the target's armour, so it may be useless, fine, or absolutely essential. Having a primed faction mod at the same time is a great idea, besides.

There are actually quite a few things that affect the efficacy of hunter munitions , like the base damage , the crit chance , crit damage, status duration , enemy status caps (if any), enemy vulnerabilities and weakpoint bonuses as well as buffs on the weapon in question.

Faction mods , affect a single faction at a time, and are a final multiplier. Usually more effective when paired with something that has DoT so it can double dip.

Whether the faction based final multiplier is better than a different kind of multiplier (crit , multishot , elemental) depends on how many such multipliers you have managed to squeeze into your build and goes into the territory of opportunity costs involved. 

Personally I would rather not switch loadouts between missions that may have different factions.

In the current topic , the elemental weighting puts more emphasis on corrosive which is better for direct  and sustained damage by the weapon , especially effective against armored units such that the status can reduce Armor. The much higher fire rate will only make it better at dealing damage but may not be as ammo efficient (but still pretty good) and may require frequent reload or result in wasted shots. 

It's a perfectly reasonable approach and will have no issues killing most enemies. My recommendation of hunter munitions is under the assumption that my other suggestions are also accepted. Taking bits and pieces will not result in as effective an outcome.

I rarely ever use faction mods and I find no content that I cannot complete. I also have builds where I don't use hunter munitions and I can complete most content fine too.

[Eda.Mone]

11 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Use Kompressa with Secondary Encumber, Roar, aim at enemies' heads, that will do level cap damage.

I've actually been meaning to start pushing to level cap again.
Though, I'm normally the octavia there.

[VibingCat]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

There are actually quite a few things that affect the efficacy of hunter munitions , like the base damage , the crit chance , crit damage, status duration , enemy status caps (if any), enemy vulnerabilities and weakpoint bonuses as well as buffs on the weapon in question.

Faction mods , affect a single faction at a time, and are a final multiplier. Usually more effective when paired with something that has DoT so it can double dip.

Whether the faction based final multiplier is better than a different kind of multiplier (crit , multishot , elemental) depends on how many such multipliers you have managed to squeeze into your build and goes into the territory of opportunity costs involved. 

Personally I would rather not switch loadouts between missions that may have different factions.

In the current topic , the elemental weighting puts more emphasis on corrosive which is better for direct  and sustained damage by the weapon , especially effective against armored units such that the status can reduce Armor. The much higher fire rate will only make it better at dealing damage but may not be as ammo efficient (but still pretty good) and may require frequent reload or result in wasted shots. 

It's a perfectly reasonable approach and will have no issues killing most enemies. My recommendation of hunter munitions is under the assumption that my other suggestions are also accepted. Taking bits and pieces will not result in as effective an outcome.

I rarely ever use faction mods and I find no content that I cannot complete. I also have builds where I don't use hunter munitions and I can complete most content fine too.

You're confusing "efficacy" with "damage multipliers". My point is that Bleed has more efficacy against armour, whereas it's never the best option against shields and defense-less health classes. Those things you listed affect all damage types equally whereas armour drastically changes the relation between direct damage and DOT since Bleed bypasses it.

Corrosive as a better damage type than viral? Only against ferrite armour and the infested, whereas viral is overall better against alloy armour, simply because all grineer have cloned flesh. And when it comes to status, only 10 corrosive procs are stronger than 10 viral when it comes to non-true damage. In all other cases, viral procs grant a larger multiplier.

I am not questioning that you're able to do any content, my goal was to give OP an endgame build and the math of Warframe favours viral+slash at higher levels. If you don't trust me, spawn in the simulacrum Bailiff Eximus and try to kill them with corrosive.

[0_The_F00l]

39 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

You're confusing "efficacy" with "damage multipliers". My point is that Bleed has more efficacy against armour, whereas it's never the best option against shields and defense-less health classes. Those things you listed affect all damage types equally whereas armour drastically changes the relation between direct damage and DOT since Bleed bypasses it.

Corrosive as a better damage type than viral? Only against ferrite armour and the infested, whereas viral is overall better against alloy armour, simply because all grineer have cloned flesh. And when it comes to status, only 10 corrosive procs are stronger than 10 viral when it comes to non-true damage. In all other cases, viral procs grant a larger multiplier.

I am not questioning that you're able to do any content, my goal was to give OP an endgame build and the math of Warframe favours viral+slash at higher levels. If you don't trust me, spawn in the simulacrum Bailiff Eximus and try to kill them with corrosive.

I assure you i understand the definition of efficacy :)

And the efficacy of hunters munitions , which is the ability to kill enemies with bleed procs, does depend on all the things i mentioned , not the armor values alone.

i dont think viral vs corrosive was ever my point , it was more about having faction mods instead of hunters munitions. In my opinion Faction mods are not as necessary as a more consistent means for bleed. If you take the time reading what i wrote you will notice have already recommended viral as well , but corrosive will do fine on the main damage if OP has other means to get viral.

There are of course much better ways to get even more damage out but i was limiting the suggestions to modding.

[VibingCat]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I assure you i understand the definition of efficacy :)

And the efficacy of hunters munitions , which is the ability to kill enemies with bleed procs, does depend on all the things i mentioned , not the armor values alone.

i dont think viral vs corrosive was ever my point , it was more about having faction mods instead of hunters munitions. In my opinion Faction mods are not as necessary as a more consistent means for bleed. If you take the time reading what i wrote you will notice have already recommended viral as well , but corrosive will do fine on the main damage if OP has other means to get viral.

There are of course much better ways to get even more damage out but i was limiting the suggestions to modding.

The effectiveness of bleed does depend on armour because the effective health points of armoured enemies scale rapidly as a function of their level, whereas True damage only cares about health. I'm going to show you a practical example.

In steel path, a level 150 Elite Lancer has 47140 health and 1.37 millions EHP. In comparison, the same enemy at level 300 has 68300 health and 3.34 millions EHP. While EHP is 2.44 times higher, health is only 1.45 times greater. That means that the higher the armour, the more convenient bleed becomes compared to any other damage type.

I hope this helps :)

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by VibingCat

[0_The_F00l]

34 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

The effectiveness of bleed does depend on armour because the effective health points of armoured enemies scale rapidly as a function of their level, whereas True damage only cares about health. I'm going to show you a practical example.

In steel path, a level 150 Elite Lancer has 47140 health and 1.37 millions EHP. In comparison, the same enemy at level 300 has 68300 health and 3.34 millions EHP. While EHP 2.44 times higher, health is only 1.45 times greater. That means that the higher the armour, the more convenient bleed becomes compared to any other damage type.

I hope this helps :)

 

Thanks for your explanation , though it wasn't necessary.

But I believe you are confusing enemy (effective) health with your ability to do damage to it.

The efficacy of you ability to damage enemy health is affected by the various multipliers. And damage isn't as cut and dry as one may think.

Here is a more detailed explanation limiting ourselves to a simplistic example;

Lets take a enemy with following stats (just an old reference i had lying around)

HP	24,830.36
Armor	5,001.65
EHP Target	438806.2603

 

 

Lets consider a weapon with following stats and for sake of simplicity assume it does pure radiation damage.

Base damage	Crit chance	Crit damage multiplier
100	30%	2

Now to kill the enemy you can do any of the following

	Base damage	Crit chance	Crit damage multiplier	Effective Health damage per shot	Potential bleed damage per shot	Direct shots needed for EHP (no bleed)	Shots needed to bleed HP
base	100	30%	2	130	37.8	3376	656
200% crit chance	100	90%	2	190	113.4	2310	218
200% Crit damage	100	30%	4	190	75.6	2310	328
200% damage (serration)	300	30%	2	390	113.4	1126	218
CC + Damage	300	90%	2	570	340.2	770	72
CC+ CD + Damage	300	90%	4	1110	680.4	396	36

 

and with faction mods,

	Base damage	Crit chance	Crit damage multiplier	Faction	Effective damage per shot	Potential bleed damage per shot	Direct shots needed (no bleed)	Shots needed to bleed
base	100	30%	2	0.55	201.5	90.8145	2178	273
200% crit chance	100	90%	2	0.55	294.5	272.4435	1490	91
200% Crit damage	100	30%	4	0.55	294.5	181.629	1490	137
200% damage (serration)	300	30%	2	0.55	604.5	272.4435	726	91
CC + Damage	300	90%	2	0.55	883.5	817.3305	497	30
CC+ CD + Damage	300	90%	4	0.55	1720.5	1634.661	255	15

 

Its not as refined as some of my other stuff as i havent updated my EHP calculators recently,

So while a faction mod might increase your final multiplier of per instance damage , a more certain way to get slash procs should be your first priority as there are limited mod slots available,

This is of course simplified to avoid unnecessary confusion, and does not go into calculating combined direct and bleed damage (mostly cause i am too sleepy at the moment) or the effect of reducing armor and adding vulnerabilities to the enemy.

 

[VibingCat]

9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Thanks for your explanation , though it wasn't necessary.

But I believe you are confusing enemy (effective) health with your ability to do damage to it.

The efficacy of you ability to damage enemy health is affected by the various multipliers. And damage isn't as cut and dry as one may think.

Here is a more detailed explanation limiting ourselves to a simplistic example;

Lets take a enemy with following stats (just an old reference i had lying around)

 

HP	24,830.36
Armor	5,001.65
EHP Target	438806.2603

 

 

Lets consider a weapon with following stats and for sake of simplicity assume it does pure radiation damage.

 

Base damage	Crit chance	Crit damage multiplier
100	30%	2

Now to kill the enemy you can do any of the following

 

	Base damage	Crit chance	Crit damage multiplier	Effective Health damage per shot	Potential bleed damage per shot	Direct shots needed for EHP (no bleed)	Shots needed to bleed HP
base	100	30%	2	130	37.8	3376	656
200% crit chance	100	90%	2	190	113.4	2310	218
200% Crit damage	100	30%	4	190	75.6	2310	328
200% damage (serration)	300	30%	2	390	113.4	1126	218
CC + Damage	300	90%	2	570	340.2	770	72
CC+ CD + Damage	300	90%	4	1110	680.4	396	36

 

and with faction mods,

 

	Base damage	Crit chance	Crit damage multiplier	Faction	Effective damage per shot	Potential bleed damage per shot	Direct shots needed (no bleed)	Shots needed to bleed
base	100	30%	2	0.55	201.5	90.8145	2178	273
200% crit chance	100	90%	2	0.55	294.5	272.4435	1490	91
200% Crit damage	100	30%	4	0.55	294.5	181.629	1490	137
200% damage (serration)	300	30%	2	0.55	604.5	272.4435	726	91
CC + Damage	300	90%	2	0.55	883.5	817.3305	497	30
CC+ CD + Damage	300	90%	4	0.55	1720.5	1634.661	255	15

 

Its not as refined as some of my other stuff as i havent updated my EHP calculators recently,

So while a faction mod might increase your final multiplier of per instance damage , a more certain way to get slash procs should be your first priority as there are limited mod slots available,

This is of course simplified to avoid unnecessary confusion, and does not go into calculating combined direct and bleed damage (mostly cause i am too sleepy at the moment) or the effect of reducing armor and adding vulnerabilities to the enemy.

 

What's the point of including base damage and critical multipliers in our comparison, when they affect bleed and corrosive the same exact way? If a>b, then ka>kb is always true since k is positive. This is merely a comparison between viral-bleed and corrosive and you didn't take status into consideration, not even damage type multipliers. 

[0_The_F00l]

21 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

What's the point of including base damage and critical multipliers in our comparison, when they affect bleed and corrosive the same exact way? If a>b, then ka>kb is always true since k is positive. This is merely a comparison between viral-bleed and corrosive and you didn't take status into consideration, not even damage type multipliers. 

I am including them cause they affect the amount of bleed damage you get.

I am not sure why you are mentioning corrosive vs bleed, it was never the point i was making.

They are also not affecting things the same way, as bleed has a DoT and can double dip , corrosive may reduce armor but stil does damage to EHP not HP.

And as i said , it was simplified.

But Definitely a better analysis than simply comparing armored EHP vs HP.

I am also not sure what "damage type" multipliers you mean. Could you elaborate?

[Eda.Mone]

On 2023-11-21 at 2:14 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I would recommend a couple of changes to your loadout.

Firstly , replace vile acceleration with primed shred (if you have it) and pointstrike with critical delay.

This will boost your crit capability and having more punchthough means hitting more enemies that usually tend to come to you in a single file that's a ln acceptable sacrifice for slightly lower fire rate.

You don't NEED viral , and I forget the priority of combined elements in rivens , but do check if having a cold mod let's you get viral and electric. That's not a bad combo.

Galvanized scope is not recommended as it will be difficult to maintain headshot kills required (enemies tend to die of procs more often) so you can replace that with the cold mod mentioned above or heat.

Hunter munitions will net you greater output than Bane as well.

 

By the way, I should probably stress this.
I'm mostly playing Dagath at the moment, so if I'm using a weapon, Viral is definitely not the play since I am max stacking pretty quickly.