A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Scintilus]

God bless you sir, everything that I wanted to post are all in this thread plus extras. Please DE we support this!

[Zoike]

know the gist of this. hire him DE. hes better than your whole team. (well kinda.....)

 

in reality though these are really good ideas. id much rather find something about the a new melee sytem in the news instead of the usual tenno reinforcements.......... cmon DE ur totally wasting a game with so much potenial.   

[Kyte]

know the gist of this. hire him DE. hes better than your whole team. (well kinda.....)

 

in reality though these are really good ideas. id much rather find something about the a new melee sytem in the news instead of the usual tenno reinforcements.......... cmon DE ur totally wasting a game with so much potenial.   

You do realize the development costs of this vs Tenno Reinforcements are orders of magnitude different, use different teams and they have already shown proof that they do the latter in parallel with any other bigger changes?

[Scintilus]

Btw where do toxic mods go? Also how about status effects?

[FoxyKabam]

read that huge &#! wall and it blew me away

I wish I could upvote you more

 

I've done what I could

[theGreatZamboni]

Btw where do toxic mods go? Also how about status effects?

 

I am expanding this to answer questions people are asking. But if you look, Toxic mods now are in the form of Corrosive Rounds. I have some concerns about allowing every weapon to use Toxic damage, because it passively makes guns like the Acrid or Torid worse or less viable, as they are now. The point being, if a gun has a specific element that is exclusive to that gun, it makes that gun more sought after. It would mean certain new damage types would only be attainable by using that gun. If every gun can use toxic mods, it defeats the purpose of guns that are innately a specific element.

 

But the short of it, Toxic mods are now Corrosive Rounds, status effects would remain. Since the stats of guns increase dramatically with level, the status effects would be in a decent place by the time you leveled it to 30. You can amplify these effects with specific attachments. It is in the image that lists the attachments. I am expounding upon this as I have stated, to help people who are missing certain details. It is long and if you do not read carefully, you will miss some nuanced ideas.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

i can see this is necessary, tough the amount of work involved could take a year to implement for DE even if they start right now (is a total rework of warframe as a game, and dont forget DE created they own demise, they started selling formas and potatoes for plat even before the game were properly made, so imagine the hate of those who paid for these mats).

 

besides the complexity of implementing this idea, i can agree 100% that new weapons all wednesdays , created on purpose to be weak, because you need a card system to reinforce them, is not viable anymore.

 

basic changes that must be implemented ASAP, besides your great ideas ( i really liked how you portrayed the system of "remember me" into warframe) are about:

 

* RNG and keyception plus the ever growing drops in the same void, diluting any chance to get something

* weak weapons that are by definition in need of cards (serration, hornet, you name it) that do the same

* and weak warframes that needs again the same built mods to be viable.

 

nonetheless i respect all the time you spend in doing this post, i agree with the "spirit" of the concept. +1

[Corvid]

I'd support this system, if it were suggested on the DC. Hell, I support it now!

 

I personally always thought Forma broke the game, as it allows DE to be a bit lazy when it comes to designating default polarities.

[theGreatZamboni]

I'd support this system, if it were suggested on the DC. Hell, I support it now!

 

I personally always thought Forma broke the game, as it allows DE to be a bit lazy when it comes to designating default polarities.

 

Forma makes starting and maintaining a clan a hassle. Which in turn doesn't allow people to experience everything. If it is easier to join an already finished clan, then few new clans will be made let alone sustained. This directly affects competition. Forma also made Prime versions of anything useless outside of esthetics. DE are gambling on the idea people want gold trimmed items that are slightly different, items that have been rendered useless due to the addition of Forma. The fact you can now skip what is seen as "end-game" content is ludicrous. The Void itself is nothing all that different from the items it drops. Pleasing to look at, with not affects on the gameplay. The “Secret Interaction” of replenishing energy when walking up to box traps is hardly an incentive for people, nor does it warrant the effort involved in obtaining said Warframe (effort you can forgo with a large fee). The “Secret Interaction” becomes useless once outside the Void. So once the player obtains all the rewards from the Void and have no reason to return, said interaction is essentially non-existent. So Forma makes the slight stats gained from a Prime unnoticeable when posed against current content. Cosmetics are fine. But when lore states these weapons were the precursors to what we use now, while what we use now pales in comparison; these stats/polarities do not reflect the "rarity" of these items. "The rarest content" rendered useless with Forma. This is really a reflection of everything wrong with the game. Forma ties into the shoddy content we have as well as the systems of play that promote samey builds and the repetition of un-fun actions. It cripples the way people play. If it was supplemental that would be fine, but because of what it does and the nature of the systems in play; it feels like a cheap way to entice people to spend money instead of earnestly providing means in which they would want to.

Edited December 1, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Kyte]

Wait. Wait. Waaaaait.

Are you suggesting making Primes unambiguously better than non-Primes?

 

Please tell me I'm wrong and I misread you because that's objectively $&*&*#(%&.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Kyte

[bobafetthotmail]

Wait. Wait. Waaaaait.

Are you suggesting making Primes unambiguously better than non-Primes?

 

Please tell me I'm wrong and I misread you because that's objectively $&*&*#(%&.

He seems to say so, but indirectly, by removing or limiting Forma use.

 

And anyway, why would it be $&*&*#(%&? Apart from Boar Prime all prime weapons are "unambiguously better" than non-primes, is that wrong?

[Kyte]

He seems to say so, but indirectly, by removing or limiting Forma use.

 

And anyway, why would it be $&*&*#(%&? Apart from Boar Prime all prime weapons are "unambiguously better" than non-primes, is that wrong?

Well, apart from going against one of the design goals of the game, it renders non-Primes obsolete and divices the playerbase in haves and have-nots, which is an unambiguously bad thing. Right now the difference is minimal, so nobody discriminates based.on whether their frame is Prime or not.

Even Prime weapons are only moderately better to their non-Prime counterpart and most certainly don't stand out as the best of the best among all weapons.

Remember all the drama with public conclave ratings? Same thing, really.

Also the drama with the super-awesome event weapons, come to think of it.

 

And unlike Mastery-locked weapons, Primes are usually tied to money programs (Founder, Prime Access). It'd make them into indirect pay to win.

 

snip

God I wish you spent as much effort contributing as you do coming up with stupid comebacks.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Kyte

[Instinction]

This is one of the best things I've ever seen posted by a player for improvements to the game. DE, take notes.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Instinction

[bobafetthotmail]

Edit: Whoa, fast moderation is fast.

 

 

Even Prime weapons are only moderately better to their non-Prime counterpart and most certainly don't stand out as the best of the best among all weapons.

Yeah, but I cannot turn a Braton in a Braton Prime with a Forma or two. That's what he was trying to say. Prime Warframes are meh, especially because of Forma. The only one with different stats is the Excalibro Prime and the tiny increase in shield recharge is NOT noticeable in the slightest.

 

 

 

 

 

And unlike Mastery-locked weapons, Primes are usually tied to money programs (Founder, Prime Access). It'd make them into indirect pay to win.

Well, p2w implies that someone with money buys stuff that others cannot get for free, which is not what happens with Primes (at least after a few months that the update is out and they "fix" the drop tables for them, lol).

 

In any case, even the slightest hint of something like this not being intended or wrong is now beyond moot due to the whole "buy/sell/buy-for-resale mods for plat" thing that is constantly going on down there in the trading section.

 

Giving Primes a slight advantage, comparable to weapons and their prime version isn't more unfair than letting players with deep pockets get all maxed mods they need in half and hour.

Edited December 2, 2013 by bobafetthotmail

[Kyte]

Edit: Whoa, fast moderation is fast.

 

Yeah, but I cannot turn a Braton in a Braton Prime with a Forma or two. That's what he was trying to say. Prime Warframes are meh, especially because of Forma. The only one with different stats is the Excalibro Prime and the tiny increase in shield recharge is NOT noticeable in the slightest.

 

 

Well, p2w implies that someone with money buys stuff that others cannot get for free, which is not what happens with Primes (at least after a few months that the update is out and they "fix" the drop tables for them, lol).

 

In any case, even the slightest hint of something like this not being intended or wrong is now beyond moot due to the whole "buy/sell/buy-for-resale mods for plat" thing that is constantly going on down there in the trading section.

 

Giving Primes a slight advantage, comparable to weapons and their prime version isn't more unfair than letting players with deep pockets get all maxed mods they need in half and hour.

Well I did say "I hope I'm misreading". The way I understood it, he was proposing a significant advantage for Primes over non-Prime frames. Which is terrible.

[bobafetthotmail]

Well I did say "I hope I'm misreading". The way I understood it, he was proposing a significant advantage for Primes over non-Prime frames. Which is terrible.

I'm pretty sure he was ranting about Formas ruining what little benefit Prime frames currently have over their counterparts. His whole post is about how the whole concept of Forma is bad or has been badly implemented. Which is a pretty valid point imho.

 

Or at least that's what I read.

Edited December 2, 2013 by bobafetthotmail

[Kyte]

Formas had been in the cards since closed beta. I remember people wanting a 'prestige' system for maxed frames since forever (I joined right after U7 hit, but I know people who've been playing since closed beta).

Forma delivered exactly what people wanted.

[Aspari]

I approve of this. Do want.

[bobafetthotmail]

Formas had been in the cards since closed beta. I remember people wanting a 'prestige' system for maxed frames since forever (I joined right after U7 hit, but I know people who've been playing since closed beta).

Forma delivered exactly what people wanted.

Did people want the privilege of resetting their item rank multiple times so they could re-level it up to 5-6 times? Grind Grind Grind. Especially now with the reduced XP gain, it's starting to fall apart.

 

Did people want the exclusive Prime Warframes (that cost a boatload of cash or require significant grind) to be skins of the non-prime frame?

 

Did people want to have to re-forma the hell out of their weapons now that elementals combine?

 

It is better than nothing, but it's not perfect, and the more the time passes and the game changes around it, the more it reveals how crappy and rigid it was in the first place.

 

With a system as proposed in the OP would be hardly necessary, so no need of "prestige" system for the maxed items.

[Kyte]

The first point? Yes, IIRC. That's what they meant with "prestiging" in first place. Just to humor you I'm asking further to double-check. Might take a while 'cause he doesn't seem to be online right now.

 

The second: I fail to see the problem. People *@##$ed back when Forma was first introduced and then they quieted because it wasn't really that much of a problem and the benefit was massive.

 

Third: DE has already expressed they're figuring out a way to not need to do that. Movable polarities of some sort, I s'pose. Also, beta.

 

Fourth: "Crappy and rigid" how.

 

Fifth: By being more restrictive, removing a gameplay option (Forma is a gameplay option) and a source of income for DE???

Not to mention that it wasn't a "need", it was a "want"? By the @(*()$ community?

[Dran]

How about we contribute nice, on-topic ideas to the thread instead of nitpicking each other?

I'm sure the OP appreciate the bumping, but you're giving DE staffs reasons to not even read the topic seriously ;)

[Rajko]

On point, I note that Zamboni has made recent updates to the OP, now would be a good time to wipe our brains, and re-read the big mamajama.

 

Honestly, Dran is 100% right, everybody's personal opinions are expressed at this point.  Further responses should just be commentary and suggestions directly pertaining to the OP as it evolves.  

 

Also, Zamboni's concept here addresses some mechanics that focus the gameplay on grinding and attempt to solve those mechanics so that it frees developers up to build rewarding gamplay.

 

To that end, please check out NotionPhil's thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63428-cells-this-is-warframes-endgame/ which contains an excellent suggestion on how Warframe could build that endgame excellence in place in a sustainable and excellent way.

[alocrius]

I think damage 2.0 highlighted, for everyone, the necessity for the game to be over-hauled in all key areas. Unfortunately, I think it's too late. DE admitted it themselves that they never expected people to play for 500 hours and it really shows. The problem is, DE has no sustainable vision for the direction of their game. They never had a clear roadmap to begin with. In retrospect, what were they thinking? They aren't even trying to address grind as they said they would because they can't. They are locked in to their bad design decisions, acting with full impunity in regard to actionable player feedback. Unless they do dive in and get very dirty they will just be 'bandaiding' Warframe until it eventually collapses under it's own burdensome design.  

 

On a positive note, I am looking forward to Warframe 2, Fall of the Orokin.  That game will have what is obviously missing in Warframe which is a dynamic, explorable world with different elective factions to align with, including a neutral 'Tenno Forces' faction.  A bounty hunter system that incorporates pvp.  You pizz-off the other faction enough and they will come after you.  Don't travel alone.  Mission vs mission, opposing squads vying for the same objective.  An army of diverse stalkers to fight against with rare powers to be obtained.  Customizeable spaceships and ship vs ship battles.  

 

That should do it.  

Edited December 2, 2013 by alocrius

[Calayne]

I just had a massive brain fart. But first of all, thanks to Rajko for that freakken' awesome thread. I think it's great! For the comments before this, I'll need to start reading again starting from page 14, because I think that's where I left off.

 

I think Zamboni's idea of a skill tree can be perfectly implemented along with the mod system. I propose this abomination:

 

The Mod Tree. 

 

This atrocity... This monstrosity... Is a combination of Zamboni's earlier suggestion, save that it now implements the mods system currently available. I think it still needs a lot of work, but I think this is one small step we can take to implement the requisite change without completely destroying the system. Granted, I'd prefer it if they did switch to a system that would be conducive for long-term gain, and having the focus entirely on buying Attachments is sort of like the fad that Pokemon creates, and attachment-freaks like me get off on.

 

Onto the idea: Still separated according to Zamboni's system: Difference is, now there are two/three/four mods in each of the three trees. An additional one for the Warframe's Aura, and by default, they all have their Powers equipped: Just pump Fusion cores into them to level them up. 

 

Systems: Shields, Armor, Resistance, Health, as stated by Zamboni. This is generally where our "D" polarity mods will go. Vitality, Redirection, Damage resistance, Steel fibre, etc. (Maybe even Flow here, or in Powers, depending on your interpretation.)

 

Powers: For Power Variation, Duration, Range, Strength. This is generally where our "V" polarity mods will go. Spec damage and range? Blind Rage, Focus, Overextend, Stretch whatever it is. Streamline and Focus probably go here, despite their polarity.

 

Utility: For Stamina, Movement, Tech, Energy. This is generally where our "-" polarity mods go. For Rush, Quick Rest, Marathon, Intruder, etcetera.

 

 

I use "Generally" because there are a lot of mods, and I'm not sure what balancing would be like with this. But it more or less guarantees some variety, at least. Preferably, only three mods are allowed, meaning: 3 Systems, 3 Powers, 3 Utility, 1 Aura, 4 Powers; We effectively have 14 slots now. This is good, as now we don't have to feel like we only have to tinker with 2-3 slots left if we take all our Warframe powers, Redirection, Vitality and Flow.

 

Adding this to some improvements, such as DE's new tutorial, a pack of beginner mods, perhaps growing weapon strength/damage/utility with rank and drastically nerfing Serration, and perhaps the mod system becomes more bearable.

 

Also, in defence of his point, I still do believe that Zamboni's proposed system could work: Mods are just now called Attachments, and only apply on weapons. Money can still be made, and some artistic value can be added to your weapons, if attachments can be seen. To add on, regarding melee...

 

I came here wanting to melee EVERYTHING. And I feel the reason that melee is seen as not a viable option and should take a back-seat to gun-play is precisely why we need to improve melee. It's being laughed at, for God's sake. Worse still, it's the favourite part of my arsenal, and I wished it were more potent. If it were, we wouldn't even be having this conversation about shooting things coming first, before melee. Allow me to stress that: There should be a viable choice of either even late into the game, rather than one over the other. And I do believe it can be, with the upcoming updates. But if that is not sufficient, we definitely need Melee 2.0. It's not that drastic of a change, and it will only bring the game to greater heights.

 

I agree there's a lot of players. I agree, some of it might be hard to change. But change must come for the good of this game, if it is for the better. But after thorough reading of some points, I agree with our "Opponents" (Rather, they're comrades with different view points), regarding the change being too drastic. It is, but I personally support it because it could mean a great change for the better for this game. And I can see where you come from: All this change is useless if we can't implement it, and worse still, they lose players and consequently, funding, because of this change.

 

But I believe we still need to see the big picture; Whatever it is, change or no change. I just hope that the randomness of mods can be overcome, at least, and will allow newbies to ease into the more difficult portions of the game later. I hope to play this game for many more years, not just cause the game is awesome, which it is without a doubt, but... I dunno. Just looking at them, Steve, Scott, Rebecca, all of them, on that couch every live stream.... I can tell this is their dream. I really want to see it succeed, hugely. I love this company. Their passion is infectious.

[Calayne]

And speaking about Catalysts on weapons... Possibly, possibly, there are still ways to apply that: Attachments could also have an energy system, similar to now. It'll still be kind of like mods, but now restricted to certain portions of the weapon, like that pointed out in the OP. I thought it was pretty intuitive, and really creative. Better yet, if (I keep raving on about this) you could see those attachments. 

 

Now, back to studies. Exam tomorrow, dudes, and I'm doing another all-nighter. Peace out, my fellow-Tenno.