Over 500 weapons but only a maximum of 180 riven slots? We need more slots...

[CrashBangWallop]

In an ever expanding game, why are certain areas not expanding with it?

Why have a limit and such a low number?

It's time for more riven slots please, DE

[Jorak_Falconstar]

there is a limit because every single riven mod in the game has to have its own unique database entry.

Database capacity is not infinite..

The more rivens = more database capacity = more server space = more cost to DE.

[Chewarette]

That neverending topic by people who somehow play 500 weapons every day, or (more likely) are master hoarder who will anyway reach the limit. If the limit was raised to 2.000 Rivens, you can rest assured those guys will have 2.000 Rivens and will complain about the limit.

And if there wasn't any limit, people would just keep all their Riven instead of selling them (you know, to make room for others), and those same guys would complain that the Riven market is ded

Better ignore

Edited January 11 by Chewarette

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

8 minutes ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

there is a limit because every single riven mod in the game has to have its own unique database entry.

Database capacity is not infinite..

The more rivens = more database capacity = more server space = more cost to DE.

It's like 4-8 bytes per riven, come on

7 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

That neverending topic by people who somehow play 500 weapons every day, or (more likely) are master hoarder who will anyway reach the limit. If the limit was raised to 2.000 Rivens, you can rest assured those guys will have 2.000 Rivens and will complain about the limit.

And if there wasn't any limit, people would just keep all their Riven instead of selling them (you know, to make room for others), and those same guys would complain that the Riven market is ded

Better ignore

Rivens exist to be used, not to be sold

[SDGDen]

go into your profile real quick, look at the weapons section and filter by "usage rate". how many weapons have more than 1% usage rate?

for me that would be: 26 primaries, 19 secondaries and 20 melee weapons.

65 in total.

 

now ask yourself, for your own stats, is that number significantly lower than your riven cap? yes? well congrats, you can fit a riven onto every single weapon you've used for a significant amount of time and still have room left over.

 

 

 

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

1 minute ago, SDGDen said:

go into your profile real quick, look at the weapons section and filter by "usage rate". how many weapons have more than 1% usage rate?

for me that would be: 26 primaries, 19 secondaries and 20 melee weapons.

65 in total.

 

now ask yourself, for your own stats, is that number significantly lower than your riven cap? yes? well congrats, you can fit a riven onto every single weapon you've used for a significant amount of time and still have room left over.

 

 

 

This is completely irrelevant, there is no reason for a riven slot limit to exist other than corporate greed, and you're defending it.

[SDGDen]

3 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

It's like 4-8 bytes per riven, come on

4-8 bytes per riven? do you know how little space that actually is?

a single byte can store something crazy like: a singular character (not even using unicode, that'd require 4 bytes).

for a riven, the following things need to be stored:

> which weapon it is for (likely using a UUID with a set length)
>the polarity
>the rank (cost is calculated off of rank so doesnt have to be stored)
>the MR requirement
>the amount of rerolls (this will have to be stored as a full INT because you don't know how often someone's going to reroll it)
>positive stat 1 (using a UUID)
>a base amount for positive stat 1 (which will be multiplied by riven disposition to get the final result)
>positive stat 2 (using a UUID)
>a base amount for positive stat 2
>positive stat 3 (using a UUID)
>a base amount for positive stat 3
>negative stat (using a UUID)
>a base amount for the negative stat

 

even IF DE was stupid enough to make all their UUIDs 8-bit in a 32-64 bit program, this would not fit within "8 bytes".

considering warframe can run in 32 bit or 64 bit mode, lets assume 32-bit UUIDs.

so we'd have the weapon: that's 32 bits
then the polarity: this can be done in 2 bits since there's only 3 options
then rank: this would require 4 bits since 3 bits can only store 8 different values
MR requirement would require 4 bits since the highest is MR16, assuming we're storing 0000 as MR1.
amount of rerolls would be stored as a 32 bit INT
then we have 4 stat UUIDs and 4 base amounts expressed as 32 bit FLOATs.

result: 330 bits per riven. that's 42 bytes per riven, 180 of them and you have 7.5 kilobytes of data to store the rivens of one player.

that doesnt sound like *that* much does it? well. consider that warframe has somewhere in the neighbourhood of 35 million players according to estimates (which are actually on the low end considering there were 26 million players around seven or eight years ago), and you'd be looking at 264 TERABYTES of storage just to store the rivens of every player.

of course, this also has to be made redundant, through the rule of 1 hot backup, 1 offsite backup, 1 cold backup DE would need a total of just over 1 petabyte of storage just to store everyone's rivens.

 

 

3 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

This is completely irrelevant, there is no reason for a riven slot limit to exist other than corporate greed, and you're defending it.

explain to me why it's irrelevant how many weapons you actually use.

alternatively, explain to me why you need rivens for weapons you dont use. 

 

cuz honestly, it sounds like you're avoiding the question because you don't like the answer. you dont want to admit that you only use around 10% of your arsenal enough to even warrant a riven. 

 

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

3 hours ago, SDGDen said:

4-8 bytes per riven? do you know how little space that actually is?

a single byte can store something crazy like: a singular character (not even using unicode, that'd require 4 bytes).

for a riven, the following things need to be stored:

> which weapon it is for (likely using a UUID with a set length)
>the polarity
>the rank (cost is calculated off of rank so doesnt have to be stored)
>the MR requirement
>the amount of rerolls (this will have to be stored as a full INT because you don't know how often someone's going to reroll it)
>positive stat 1 (using a UUID)
>a base amount for positive stat 1 (which will be multiplied by riven disposition to get the final result)
>positive stat 2 (using a UUID)
>a base amount for positive stat 2
>positive stat 3 (using a UUID)
>a base amount for positive stat 3
>negative stat (using a UUID)
>a base amount for the negative stat

 

even IF DE was stupid enough to make all their UUIDs 8-bit in a 32-64 bit program, this would not fit within "8 bytes".

considering warframe can run in 32 bit or 64 bit mode, lets assume 32-bit UUIDs.

so we'd have the weapon: that's 32 bits
then the polarity: this can be done in 2 bits since there's only 3 options
then rank: this would require 4 bits since 3 bits can only store 8 different values
MR requirement would require 4 bits since the highest is MR16, assuming we're storing 0000 as MR1.
amount of rerolls would be stored as a 32 bit INT
then we have 4 stat UUIDs and 4 base amounts expressed as 32 bit FLOATs.

result: 330 bits per riven. that's 42 bytes per riven, 180 of them and you have 7.5 kilobytes of data to store the rivens of one player.

that doesnt sound like *that* much does it? well. consider that warframe has somewhere in the neighbourhood of 35 million players according to estimates (which are actually on the low end considering there were 26 million players around seven or eight years ago), and you'd be looking at 264 TERABYTES of storage just to store the rivens of every player.

of course, this also has to be made redundant, through the rule of 1 hot backup, 1 offsite backup, 1 cold backup DE would need a total of just over 1 petabyte of storage just to store everyone's rivens.

 

Fine, 41 bytes per riven. Now calculate how much storage an average players inventory takes and multiply that by 36 mil. To me it looks like DE are doing pretty well.

2 hours ago, SDGDen said:

explain to me why it's irrelevant how many weapons you actually use.

alternatively, explain to me why you need rivens for weapons you dont use. 

 

cuz honestly, it sounds like you're avoiding the question because you don't like the answer. you dont want to admit that you only use around 10% of your arsenal enough to even warrant a riven. 

 

Because I just want to own a riven? Explain why you need resources that you aren’t immediately using, might as well delete them like argon crystals.

 

Do people not realise how cheap the storage actually is? Discord allows you to send an unlimited number of messages of way more than 41 bytes of length, and they even allow an unlimited number of uploads. And here these people are arguing that 41 byte per riven is 999 TERABYTES omg.

[Chewarette]

5 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Do people not realise how cheap the storage actually is? Discord allows you to send an unlimited number of messages of way more than 41 bytes of length, and they even allow an unlimited number of uploads. And here these people are arguing that 41 byte per riven is 999 TERABYTES omg.

But do you really think DE is limiting that out of spite, just for the sake of reading you ranting on a forum ? You're saying it's corporate greed, but wouldn't "corporate greed" make them sell you those additional riven slots for   instead of hard-blocking you ?

DE know better. If storage is cheap, if people are asking for it and they could make money out of it, they'd have done it already. If they don't, it means they have a reason, and the one they gave us a long time ago was "storage". They have all the data to back this decision up, unlike you who are just complaining. You've already been corrected once, which just shows how much you don't know about that specific topic, yet you continue digging your own grave.

All what you say doesn't make sense, sorry.

Edited January 11 by Chewarette

[Rathalio]

1 hour ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

It's like 4-8 bytes per riven, come on

- As you were told it's definitely more than that and definitely have a bigger impact than the other stuff stored on your account as the database structure can be optimized very well for that and not rivens due to their nature.
- If you try to look up for how accounts there is on warframe across all platforms, you can see numbers like 50 millions in 2021 that's a lot to multiply your "few bytes" with.

- Rivens are secondary overall in the game and 180 slots limit is more than reasonable from a perspective of gameplay and not a hoarding perspective, they are here to be used not to collect dust in your infinite collection.

Also globally you seem to really have hot takes about how company should do without any remotely precise idea of the implications of what you are asking. Stop debating on suppositions and make assertive claims as if you knew DE was doing some corporate greed or whatever when you literally don't have enough knowledge to justify it at all.

PS : Discord is not even remotely comparable to a video game company in terms of revenue and capacity. They also do sell data a lot which is a very solid income to cover the costs of storage. Discord also for long had a lot of limits towards uploads, limited to premium users. Discord is also now removing uploaded content after it a while to recover space. Stop trying to pull up every random arguments you can think of, that's not helping any healthy debate.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

But do you really think DE is limiting that out of spite, just for the sake of reading you ranting on a forum ? You're saying it's corporate greed, but wouldn't "corporate greed" make them sell you those additional riven slots for   instead of hard-blocking you ?

All what you say doesn't make sense, sorry.

Oh so you are denying my claim because you think there is a Higher Superior Cause why DE decided to limit the number of slots? It’s much simpler actually, they have no clue how to balance the game. I wish devs actually played their own games.

 

1 hour ago, Rathalio said:

- As you were told it's definitely more than that and definitely have a bigger impact than the other stuff stored on your account as the database structure can be optimized very well for that and not rivens due to their nature.
- If you try to look up for how accounts there is on warframe across all platforms, you can see numbers like 50 millions in 2021 that's a lot to multiply your "few bytes" with.

- Rivens are secondary overall in the game and 180 slots limit is more than reasonable from a perspective of gameplay and not a hoarding perspective, they are here to be used not to collect dust in your infinite collection.

Also globally you seem to really have hot takes about how company should do without any remotely precise idea of the implications of what you are asking. Stop debating on suppositions and make assertive claims as if you knew DE was doing some corporate greed or whatever when you literally don't have enough knowledge to justify it at all.

PS : Discord is not even remotely comparable to a video game company in terms of revenue and capacity. They also do sell data a lot which is a very solid income to cover the costs of storage. Discord also for long had a lot of limits towards uploads, limited to premium users. Discord is also now removing uploaded content after it a while to recover space. Stop trying to pull up every random arguments you can think of, that's not helping any healthy debate.

If you are so concerned about storage, then just store the type of veiled riven and its seed. It’s 9 bytes. Easy. Also what you said about revenue is BS. Until recently, Telegram was fully funded by their CEO and now they launched a premium subscription for a few dollars per months. They were able to cover the costs just from having a few million subscribers.

[Chewarette]

1 minute ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Oh so you are denying my claim because you think there is a Higher Superior Cause why DE decided to limit the number of slots? It’s much simpler actually, they have no clue how to balance the game. I wish devs actually played their own games.

It's not about playing their own game or not here. It's about - if there were a way to monetize it (and there is, considering you can already buy slots for plats, so it'd be pretty easy to remove the hard cap if it would prove profitable for DE), they'd have done it already. The bolded part is important here : if they didn't do it yet, it's because it's not profitable for them. They're not a charitable company, they're looking for profit, they wouldn't pass on that opportunity.

I'm off of that discussion as you seem hell-bent on thinking there is some sort of conspiracy from DE/Tencent toward yourself. Hint: there isn't

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

It's not about playing their own game or not here. It's about - if there were a way to monetize it (and there is, considering you can already buy slots for plats, so it'd be pretty easy to remove the hard cap if it would prove profitable for DE), they'd have done it already. The bolded part is important here : if they didn't do it yet, it's because it's not profitable for them. They're not a charitable company, they're looking for profit, they wouldn't pass on that opportunity.

I'm off of that discussion as you seem hell-bent on thinking there is some sort of conspiracy from DE/Tencent toward yourself. Hint: there isn't

There is always conspiracy my guy. 

 

Wikipedia is storing much more data than DE and they are literally a non profit organisation running off of donations.

 

52 minutes ago, German said:

I recall steve saying that it's not so much about database storage and more about the fact every time you open your mod console (and i think some other cases of loading) it would load your entire riven inventory which would give you a huge freeze (and other issues) depending on how many rivens you have.

Sounds like Steve needs to learn how to code

[German]

I recall steve saying that it's not so much about database storage and more about the fact every time you open your mod console (and i think some other cases of loading) it would load your entire riven inventory which would give you a huge freeze (and other issues) depending on how many rivens you have.

[Rathalio]

14 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

If you are so concerned about storage, then just store the type of veiled riven and its seed. It’s 9 bytes. Easy.

Have you played the game recently? You don't know that they optimized the veiled rivens and now they don't count towards the limit until you proceed to unveil them?

If yes and you are saying that activated veiled riven with their challenges should also not be counted, seriously I would say that you just want to use every random arguments you will find once again. Because it would irrelevant as you activate them the moment you want to unveil them anyways.

10 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Wikipedia is storing much more data than DE and they are literally a non profit organisation running off of donations.

Wikipedia was meant and designed to work this way and it's their main focus, that's how they could over the years participate in breakthroughs in database systems and solve the new problems they were facing with there endlessly increasing size.

Once again rivens are a very secondary asset and the game is not designed to load hundreds of rivens just like that. It's just like saying Office Word should have the same features for picture editing that Photoshop has just because they can do it, Word should too. You are clearly showing more and more that you have no idea of what you are talking about. The only thing you seem to know or to be precise "be convinced of" is that companies always want their best profits in any circumstances, everything is black and they don't even play their game etc. So you always have to assume the worst conspiracies and fight against them. And that anyone working for them is incompetent as if you would do better if you were there. That's just toxic nonsense.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

32 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Have you played the game recently? You don't know that they optimized the veiled rivens and now they don't count towards the limit until you proceed to unveil them?

You don’t even understand what I mean. The point was that instead of storing the attributes of the riven, you can just store its seed and compute the attributes on demand.

32 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Once again rivens are a very secondary asset and the game is not designed to load hundreds of rivens just like that. It's just like saying Office Word should have the same features for picture editing that Photoshop has just because they can do it, Word should too. You are clearly showing more and more that you have no idea of what you are talking about. The only thing you seem to know or to be precise "be convinced of" is that companies always want their best profits in any circumstances, everything is black and they don't even play their game etc. So you always have to assume the worst conspiracies and fight against them. And that anyone working for them is incompetent as if you would do better if you were there. That's just toxic nonsense.

Not rendering the items that aren’t visible is a basic feature that every ui framework has, it’s literally 10 minutes to implement in React.

 

32 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Wikipedia was meant and designed to work this way and it's their main focus, that's how they could over the years participate in breakthroughs in database systems and solve the new problems they were facing with there endlessly increasing size

Oh so Wikipedia actually has a super secret high performance database system that no one else has access to? Cuz last time I checked they used PHP and MySQL.

Edited January 11 by NorthernDarkIceSoul

[Rathalio]

12 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Oh so Wikipedia actually has a super secret high performance database system that no one else has access to? Cuz last time I checked they used PHP and MySQL.

Not every system is applicable in every context. And not every system is relevant in every context. And that's a funny claim when everyone knows that Wikipedia is one of the flagships of open source software. Have you ever heard about MediaWiki which is their core and open source? You have access to a lot of details and tech for free if you need to.

25 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Not rendering the items that aren’t visible is a basic feature that every ui framework has, it’s literally 10 minutes to implement in React.

Applying a random idea again and try to make that an argument. Since when React which is a rather heavy framework for websites is used in Warframe? And most importantly how would you know? Also did you know that most of game interfaces don't use tech as easy to use as web development uses just because it's better for them to use other systems that focus on performance optimization and are not mainly focused on the easy to use aspect like for the web techs? Sometimes you can find some similarities but for the most part it's two different systems so your experience with Web development again is worth for web development and even then in a specific context of web development only.

(Also for your knowledge it's been a few years since they use a lot more than just "PHP" and they use SQL systems indeed, but that's not even "MySQL" which is a specific software running SQL based relational database models. They also using it in correlation with NoSQL databases (i.e. Document Oriented Databases) when it's appropriate with an ecosystem of parsers and different database systems for different aspects of the Websites, of it's editor etc. It's not because you know how to dev websites that you are a master in development my guy. Be humble, there is a lot you don't know.)

[MaxTunnerX]

I think its high time to rework rivens. If data usage and servers are so precious for DE that they are willing to compromise on our experience, then lets rework rivens so that they dont have infinite variations and cut it significantly. Just think how much space can be saved by only giving rivens one polarity, not to mention adressing the other stats. Then we can have as many rivens as we want and servers wont be any worse off.

Also as a sidenote, Im apalled by how many of the posts here are just attacking the OP rather than addressing the core problem. Having enough slots so that you can have one riven per weapon is more than reasonable. Actually, its the precise threshold that should be met.

Edited January 17 by MaxTunnerX

[Cerenax]

6 hours ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

there is a limit because every single riven mod in the game has to have its own unique database entry.

Database capacity is not infinite..

The more rivens = more database capacity = more server space = more cost to DE.

This is BS and has been debunked even back when rivens got released. The amount of memory space a riven mod requires is insignificant, even this message you just uploaded to their forum for free takes up more space than a riven mod.
 

And even if it were true (which it isn't) that memory is an issue, then why is the answer to artificially limit the numbers of them that a player can have instead of prunning out useless parameters that rivens shouldn't even need to have such as variable mastery ranks and polarities etc?

[EDM774]

6 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

4-8 bytes

multiply that to 500 rivens then by 26 million players (that's an old stat so it's probably a lot more by now) 

You'd be surprised how fast small numbers add up

[Cerenax]

3 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

multiply that to 500 rivens then by 26 million players

You can do 50 times that and its still nothing:

[SDGDen]

4 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Because I just want to own a riven? Explain why you need resources that you aren’t immediately using, might as well delete them like argon crystals.

resources dont change how much server capacity they use based on how many you have. 1 nanospore or 1 billion nanospores, they're both just a singular 32bit unsigned int (which can store up to 4.2 billion. unsigned int is the superior data format here because you don't need a decimal or a negative value)

as for the "because i just want to own a riven" thing.... so you want to own something and then not use it.

fun fact: this kind of thinking is why jeff bezos owns multiple yachts while his employees literally work themselves to death! hoarder mentality. just think how ridiculous it sounds:

"i need to own (thing)"
"why do you need to own (thing)?"
"i dont know, i just need to own (thing)"
"are you going to be using (thing) in the future?" 
"no, i just need to own (thing) because i want to own (thing)"

 

this is also how people end up with an entire garage or attic full of crap they won't ever look at again. except in the case of warframe, DE pays for said garage so you can fit a bunch of crap you won't ever look at again in it. 

 

[Cerenax]

7 minutes ago, Rebuilding... said:

The estimate of 208 bits is likely closer to reality if we assume that the least amount of bits per variable is used (MR requirement could be kept as a signed int16 for what we know. Wasteful? Yes. Possible? Also yes).

"It's actually 208 instead of 133" isn't the refutation you seem to think it is. Even if it were the case, it still means that the database containing 500 riven mods for all of the tens of millions of registered players can be stored on a single regular hard disk.

Edited January 11 by Cerenax

[SDGDen]

2 minutes ago, Rebuilding... said:

Debunked" is a bold statement when the size of a Riven mod presented by the thread equivalent to 4 32-bit floats and some change (incidentally just enough data to maybe keep track of 3 bonuses and a curse of a single riven). The estimate of 208 bits is likely closer to reality if we assume that the least amount of bits per variable is used (MR requirement could be kept as a signed int16 for what we know. Wasteful? Yes. Possible? Also yes).

honestly the only reason to even *assume* DE used ANYTHING except 32 bit floats and ints to encode any of their data/IDs is because allegedly warframe's programming is quite low-level (involving some amount of machine code), allegedly this is also why the game is so well-optimized. 

in most cases you could even realistically argue a significantly higher size still because with games the size of warframe, the ID system would quickly become INCREDIBLY cumbersome to developers so if they want the database to be human-readable, they'd have to either A: write a program to interpret the database or B: have the database contain text IDs instead of numerical IDs (in many games with cheat consoles, you end up using text IDs nowadays, for example in cyberpunk you'd have Items.Liberty_Legendary, in minecraft you'd have minecraft:quartz_block and in warframe you could feasibly have Rifle/fluxrifle_tenet)

 

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

4 hours ago, Rathalio said:

Not every system is applicable in every context. And not every system is relevant in every context. And that's a funny claim when everyone knows that Wikipedia is one of the flagships of open source software. Have you ever heard about MediaWiki which is their core and open source? You have access to a lot of details and tech for free if you need to.Applying a random idea again and try to make that an argument. Since when React which is a rather heavy framework for websites is used in Warframe? And most importantly how would you know? Also did you know that most of game interfaces don't use tech as easy to use as web development uses just because it's better for them to use other systems that focus on performance optimization and are not mainly focused on the easy to use aspect like for the web techs?

So React, a heavy “framework” (it’s a library man) for web has means to implement a virtual list, but a high performance native ui library does not? How is it high performance then? And on top of this, virtual list is not hard to implement, I could do it even in OpenGL if needed.

 

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

honestly the only reason to even *assume* DE used ANYTHING except 32 bit floats and ints to encode any of their data/IDs is because allegedly warframe's programming is quite low-level (involving some amount of machine code), allegedly this is also why the game is so well-optimized. 

in most cases you could even realistically argue a significantly higher size still because with games the size of warframe, the ID system would quickly become INCREDIBLY cumbersome to developers so if they want the database to be human-readable, they'd have to either A: write a program to interpret the database or B: have the database contain text IDs instead of numerical IDs (in many games with cheat consoles, you end up using text IDs nowadays, for example in cyberpunk you'd have Items.Liberty_Legendary, in minecraft you'd have minecraft:quartz_block and in warframe you could feasibly have Rifle/fluxrifle_tenet)

 

They should have just used MongoDB, everyone knows its WEB SCALE.

Edited January 11 by NorthernDarkIceSoul