Melee duplicate got me thinking about ranged weapons

[darklord122]

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I ask for examples and you give me possibilities.

And the only weapon you do give is an OP weapon (in its incarnon form) that will likely get nerfed due to its performance .

The mention of "endgame" is an illusion , there is no endgame beyond what the players want to make of it , nobody is forced to sit hours in SP with only the most Meta loadout. I dont think you have actually used any actual status weapons in the game , you will realize most of them dont even reach 100% critical chance. And so these weapons wont be affected. So now your OP meta weapon does slash procs that only tic millions instead of billions? i can live with that.

The only few instances would be when you are using specific frames and arcanes that add flat crit that allows such weapons to reach higher crit tiers.

I m not sure what mastery has to do with it , but sure , i am currently LR3. I am pretty clear on what will happen , weapons that consistently have orange crits or higher and also proc a lot of slash /toxin / fire will lose a significant portion of their DoT damage. You might not realise this , but there arent that many weapons that can do so by themselves.

 

If you truly are a LR3 you must be delusional, "endgame is an illusion", I can bet the majority of the entire community feels broadly that endgame includes a bigger challenge and reward cycle which SP is a part of, Netracells being up there as well now being higher than average than SP in terms of difficulty and not even being a SP mission with enemies up in the level 240's.

Not many at all will willingly stay at the low end specs of weapons just to give themselves an endgame perspective in most modes, Sure can be fun at times but its not a basis to put your argument on. Most players will look for the most challenging content available and call that endgame, If you decide to nerf yourself thats your decision but almost any community of any game will look for the biggest challenges around. Why on earth do you think endgame gets complained about so much in terms of difficulty, Why people want raids back and also why the newest secret boss got a lot of positive response?
 

With that comes examples for you, Lets take the rogue culverin. The damage reduction hovers at around 90% for those running steel path, Now im going to use slash as an example on its arms. Im taking the highest slash proc recorded at around 29M with a build specific to combo counters and heavy attacks that regularly hit yellow crits.

Due to the ferrite armor and robotic nature the total percentage gets cut in 40%. That leaves 17,400000 after calculation. Now add on the 90% damage reduction thats already there and you get 174k more or less. If your implementation would go in that number would be cut even more in half. And I know that the numbers are specific to one part, But thats how one example of how it works. Ill even add on and let the robots arm explode, Possibly making this status red crit. Thats around triple the amount of damage. Thats around 441000 damage. At around level 200 and up which the newest tileset will give you is not even one sixth of its hp. My math could be slightly skewed here but its not that far off.

Now imagine all that status being locked to yellow crit only, You would barely even be able to hit the 29M mark to begin with if at all, Thus these calculations would make status trivialized for those at the challenging end of content.

Now this is a generous circumstance with one specific part on a robot that can already killed easily with its weakpoints, The point is damage reduction works and not every player will hit the billion damage threshold. Of which if DE didn't want people to hit these specific numbers they could have lowered the damage cap years ago.

Now I can say, I can hit that threshold. Ive beaten pablo's new pet boss, I can solo Netracells and overall endgame is not that difficult for me. Does that mean its no longer endgame however? No. Not everyone can hit those leves, Not everyone can put in the time for such things either. So putting ourselves up there is unfair for a majority.

Yes there are meta weapons, There always will be. Will they be nerfed? Probably. But trying to nerf a centralized mechanic thats been in the game for years that DE keeps encouraging us to build up to is plain unrealistic. Cause that wont only punish meta weapons, It will punish all weapons no matter what you think. All weapons benefit from status scaling with crit tiers, Including exalted weapons (some of which who rely on status in endgame, Excalibur being an example) and them being locked to one specific crit tier would do more damage then you think.

Just let people have fun watching damage numbers go up, Its always been a thing in warframe, DE keep encouraging it, Makes bosses for it and even plays with the builds themselves.


But feel free to think the way you do. Ive already made my point.

Edited January 26 by darklord122

[0_The_F00l]

31 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yes, it's been apparent that you don't care this entire thread.

You don't even care enough to get the correct stats of the Tiberon. It can get orange crits with just Point Strike, let alone any other crit mod. 

And it is more apparent that you are not really looking for a discussion , you are just looking for some empty victory of sorts by trying to quote things out of context and hiding behind false assumptions and made up rhetorics to maybe catch others on the backfoot and then acting ignorant when called out.

But since it's been called out , let me explain why I don't really care about it in particular.

Tiberon p has three fire modes , each has it's own crit chance (and status chance) the semi auto with a point strike has a 5% chance for orange crits , you will rarely see that orange crit. It is insignificant on the semi auto mode , it's with the burst augment that you can see upto 68% probability of orange crits (just with the augment) or guaranteed orange if both augment and point strike is used , This is much more significant and actually has a clear impact to the DPS. But since it needs consistent headshots and only works on burst you will be killing enemies long before any DOT does.

[0_The_F00l]

44 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Just let people have fun watching damage numbers go up, Its always been a thing in warframe, DE keep encouraging it, Makes bosses for it and even plays with the builds themselves.

The Damage attenuation introduced with archons says otherwise. DE is clearly trying to find ways for players to diversify their loadout.

44 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

If you truly are a LR3 you must be delusional, "endgame is an illusion", I can bet the majority of the entire community feels broadly that endgame includes a bigger challenge and reward cycle which SP is a part of, Netracells being up there as well now being higher than average than SP in terms of difficulty and not even being a SP mission with enemies up in the level 240's.

Once again , not sure what LR3 has to do with having opinions and what makes you think you can speak for any part of the community let alone the majority. Do limit your opinions to yourself. Having a community as vast and varied as warframe there will be a lot of different views. Try to keep an open mind.

44 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Not many at all will willingly stay at the low end specs of weapons just to give themselves an endgame perspective in most modes, Sure can be fun at times but its not a basis to put your argument on. Most players will look for the most challenging content available and call that endgame, If you decide to nerf yourself thats your decision but almost any community of any game will look for the biggest challenges around. Why on earth do you think endgame gets complained about so much in terms of difficulty, Why people want raids back and also why the newest secret boss got a lot of positive response?

I fail to see what this has to do with the topic itself , if the changes are applied the challenge will still exist , the difference is that the divide between meta and not so meta weapons will be reduced and the dominance of crit will be cut down a bit.

44 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

With that comes examples for you, Lets take the rogue culverin. The damage reduction hovers at around 90% for those running steel path, Now im going to use slash an example on its arms. Im taking the highest slash proc recorded at around 29M with a build specific to combo counters and heavy attacks that regularly hit yellow crits.

Due to the ferrite armor and robotic nature the total percentage gets cut in 40%. That leaves 17,400000 after calculation. Now add on the 90% damage reduction thats already there and you get 174k more or less. If your implementation would go in that number would be cut even more in half. And I know that the numbers are specific to one part, But thats how one example of how it works. Ill even add on and let the robots arm explode, Possibly making this status red crit. Thats around triple the amount of damage. Thats around 441000 damage. At around level 200 and up which the newest tileset will give you is not even one sixth of its hp. My math could be slightly skewed here but its not that far off.

Now imagine all that status being locked to yellow crit only, You would barely even be able to hit the 29M mark to begin with if at all, Thus these calculations would make status trivialized for those at the challenging end of content.

Now this is a generous circumstance with one specific part on a robot that can already killed easily with its weakpoints, The point is damage reduction works and not every player will hit the billion damage threshold. Of which if DE didn't want people to hit these specific numbers they could have lowered the damage cap years ago.

You keep jumping , I do not need an explanation of health values or what is theoretically possible  or how DR works with regards to armor on enemies , 

when I ask for examples I want you to tell me what (non meta) weapon specifically will be impacted by the changes as you claim.

And DE already implemented different caps depending on the enemy.

44 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Now I can say, I can hit that threshold. Ive beaten pablo's new pet boss, I can solo Netracells and overall endgame is not that difficult for me. Does that mean its no longer endgame however? No. Not everyone can hit those leves, Not everyone can put in the time for such things either. So putting ourselves up there is unfair for a majority.

Good for you , I have gotten the 60 eye monster to 25% health solo before i got wiped , that's a project once I have more time on my hands. Netracells are barely a challenge , I tend to run those almost exclusively solo to save time. I consider it the next sortie , something to do for the week once I log in. It's only gotten easier now that I have enough of the new gear.

That's why it's an illusion , endgame is whatever you believe it to be.

45 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Yes there are meta weapons, There always will be. Will they be nerfed? Probably. But trying to nerf a centralized mechanic thats been in the game for years that DE keeps encouraging us to build up to is plain unrealistic. Cause that wont only punish meta weapons, It will punish all weapons no matter what you think. All weapons benefit from status scaling with crit tiers, Including exalted weapons and them being locked to one specific crit tier would do more damage then you think.

I would rather change the core mechanic than treat symptoms that will keep coming up repeatedly because of it.

47 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

But feel free to think the way you do.

I always do.

[KitMeHarder]

57 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And it is more apparent that you are not really looking for a discussion

It didn't start that way.

And you can stop with the hypocritical retorts. Whatever you think I'm doing, you are doing the same if not more... :D

57 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

the semi auto with a point strike has a 5% chance for orange crits , you will rarely see that orange crit. It is insignificant on the semi auto mode

This just comes off as tone deaf. I listed Point Strike as the worst case scenario to exemplify the absurdity. There's still Critical Delay, Galvanized Scope, Vigilante set, Harrow, Rivens, etc... You're trying to nerf "meta weapons" for little reason, and all you've done in large part is nerf the non-meta ones, frames like Harrow/Citrine, etc... with a very convoluted change. It's just like when DE removed the headshot multiplier from AoE. Launchers were barely affected, while everything else took a decent or massive hit.

57 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

you will be killing enemies long before any DOT does.

So what is the point of your entire thread then if your comeback is just "they die too fast regardless"? Why even bother with the change?

Edited January 26 by KitMeHarder

[Tsukinoki]

On 2024-01-24 at 8:39 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

so they are thinking of some limiters on power already.

Except that it's not really about that at all.

The purpose of melee duplicate is to allow for a secondary build path of going all in on status spreaders instead of melee just being "Slap on blood-rush and get red crits on nearly everything in the game!"
Now you can go "If I can get to nearly 100% crit chance and a high status chance I can spread status procs everywhere at twice the speed."

You now have something that you can build around and use as a new way to build melee weapons.

 

The purpose of melee duplicate is to increase build options, and it has opened up a few ideas for building some melee weapons that aren't just maximum crit.
Any good stance with forced procs + reliable yellow crit + high status? And yeah, status procs for days.  And if it's coupled with slash?  Yeah it does some major work.
And heck, if you only care about slash procs you can skip the high status part and just use stances with force slash procs and double all of them that you apply to the enemy.

 

Your change on the other hand?
Lets massively nerf every crit heavy weapon in the game, regardless of how good it is, just because!

They aren't really comparable.

Your idea doesn't open up other build paths.
It doesn't increase player options.
It just takes away strength because reasons.

Edited January 26 by Tsukinoki

[SneakyErvin]

46 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

If you truly are a LR3 you must be delusional, "endgame is an illusion", I can bet the majority of the entire community feels broadly that endgame includes a bigger challenge and reward cycle which SP is a part of, Netracells being up there as well now being higher than average than SP in terms of difficulty and not even being a SP mission with enemies up in the level 240's.

But it is kinda an illusion since we have access to too much power compared to the "challenge" of the content people consider "endgame". Here "endgame" is more just the latest content, since the difficulty of that content just doesnt test what we've gathered previously really.

54 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

With that comes examples for you, Lets take the rogue culverin. The damage reduction hovers at around 90% for those running steel path, Now im going to use slash as an example on its arms. Im taking the highest slash proc recorded at around 29M with a build specific to combo counters and heavy attacks that regularly hit yellow crits.

Due to the ferrite armor and robotic nature the total percentage gets cut in 40%. That leaves 17,400000 after calculation. Now add on the 90% damage reduction thats already there and you get 174k more or less. If your implementation would go in that number would be cut even more in half. And I know that the numbers are specific to one part, But thats how one example of how it works. Ill even add on and let the robots arm explode, Possibly making this status red crit. Thats around triple the amount of damage. Thats around 441000 damage. At around level 200 and up which the newest tileset will give you is not even one sixth of its hp. My math could be slightly skewed here but its not that far off.

Not really sure how you calculate things. Would be nice to know your upfront damage aswell for the attack that results in a 29M slash proc. You also forget that the Culverin are Mechanical, not robotic, so has only 15% slash resistance. You also forget that slash DoT damage is unaffected by armor itself, more or less armor doesnt impact how much the DoT will deal. So even with the 17m proc you are effectively overkilling a level 240 SP Culverin that has just under 8 million EHP. That is if you arent already 1HKing them with the initial hit from the weapon that produces the 29M slash proc to begin with.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

It started that way.

And you can stop with the hypocritical retorts. Whatever you think I'm doing, you are doing the same if not more... :D

I will keep retorting while you keep taking things out of context and trying to "win" whatever you think you will win here ,

the only thing you have succeeded in doing is showcasing how poor you are at actually having a discussion.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

This just comes off as tone deaf. I listed Point Strike as the worst case scenario to exemplify the absurdity. There's still Critical Delay, Galvanized Scope, Vigilante set, Harrow, Rivens, etc... You're trying to nerf "meta weapons" for little reason, and all you've done in large part is nerf the non-meta ones, frames like Harrow/Citrine, etc... with a very convoluted change. It's just like when DE removed the headshot multiplier from AoE. Launchers were barely affected, while everything else took a decent or massive hit.

I am waiting for you to give me an example of non meta weapons that will see an impact in effective performance because of the change I propose not just a theoretical one.

Critical delay adds more crit , sure, congrats you now need 34% crit at base to get into orange territory above 2 %

Galvanized scope needs direct headshot kills , DoT will not work , so weapons that can actually use it will not be impacted.

Vigilante set will need you to sacrifice multiple slots resulting in opportunity cost that may not be worth it depending on the full loadout , and needs the weapon to crit first to be applicable.

Harrow is indeed something that can crit more persistently even in non crit weapons, hope you can get the headshots needed to actually make use of it , we come back to the burst headshot situation with tiberon p.

Rivens by their nature are unreliable , and again , will need the right weapon to have the right stats to be effective.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

So what is the point of your entire thread then if your come back is just "they die too fast regardless"? Why even bother with the change?

To selectively nerf weapons using system wide changes that apply to all , the ammo rework is a good example. And the same reasons apply.

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Except that it's not really about that at all.

The purpose of melee duplicate is to allow for a secondary build path of going all in on status spreaders instead of melee just being "Slap on blood-rush and get red crits on nearly everything in the game!"
Now you can go "If I can get to nearly 100% crit chance and a high status chance I can spread status procs everywhere at twice the speed."

You now have something that you can build around and use as a new way to build melee weapons.

 

The purpose of melee duplicate is to increase build options, and it has opened up a few ideas for building some melee weapons that aren't just maximum crit.
Any good stance with forced procs + reliable yellow crit + high status? And yeah, status procs for days.  And if it's coupled with slash?  Yeah it does some major work.
And heck, if you only care about slash procs you can skip the high status part and just use stances with force slash procs and double all of them that you apply to the enemy.

 

Your change on the other hand?
Lets massively nerf every crit heavy weapon in the game, regardless of how good it is, just because!

They aren't really comparable.

Your idea doesn't open up other build paths.
It doesn't increase player options.
It just takes away strength because reasons.

Duplicate was just the thing that got me thinking , its purpose (beyond filling reward drops) may have multiple aspects for DE including how the playerbase reacts. 

And let's be honest , if there was no base crit condition (and it wasn't so rare), every player and their Helios would be running it.

My changes nerfs only weapons that consistently proc orange or higher crits , and the nerf in my opinion isn't massive (people need to be more aware of their hyperboles , not every change is earth shattering and will not make weapons useless)

It will be the next step to reduce the dominance of specific builds.